Question: Does Crafting Send Loot back into the Loot Pool?

[dacampelo]

Wow.. sorry guys.. all this time I have been using axes.. not contributing a single pec to the loot pool!

All melee users should be banned! they don't feed the lootpool, only take!

They never said that there were exceptions for their revenue from decay, so, even though you mock around, that is the truth assumed from what MA/FPC have been stating.

There is only one way to have this clear, have the confirmation from MA/FPC regarding this (although they have been saying it).

Clarification request:
Are all pecs spent on decay property of MA or FPC?

 

[Lorespade]

there was a post that marco said.

not all decay is revenue.


so i think melee is classified by that

 

[CAC]

This thread is one big cock fight about "Marco said this" and "Marco said that"

What you are forgetting is that most quotes from Marco about income, loot etc were made when he was the Customer Relations manager for MA

As you will be aware, the whole purpose of Customer Relations is to make people happy, usually by put a big, shiny, glossy lie over what you are selling.

You people can believe what Marco said 4 years ago about this and that, but I'll have my reservations about them

 

[HardWrath]

there was a post that marco said.

not all decay is revenue.


so i think melee is classified by that

Here is that post

We take revenue from decay, we never stated that all decay is revenue though.

That post does cloud the picture a bit.

If we take this post at face value and only in a literal sense he isn’t saying anything about decay itself. He is only saying that they never "stated" things one way or another.

Yet I also do believe there is some level of truth to what that post implies and I also at least want to believe that it applies to melee weapons.

 

[jupiajo]

There is no need for loot pool. If internal loot formulas are correct the law of large numbers provides system stability. Ofc we don't know implementation.

 

[HardWrath]

There is no need for loot pool. If internal loot formulas are correct the law of large numbers provides system stability. Ofc we don't know implementation.

How many people do you think are active in the professions at any given moment?

If the system doesn’t accumulate loot into a pool or buffer then why after the game shuts down for a VU update can people log on and immediately get a HoF?

Think about it. The game goes off line, then immediately after it’s back online when only a few people are playing a person has the same chance to get a HoF as any other time.

Furthermore, with out an accumulation of loot ATHs and very large HoFs would not be possible.

 

[jupiajo]

How many people do you think are active in the professions at any given moment?

If the system doesnt accumulate loot into a pool or buffer then why after the game shuts down for a VU update can people log on and immediatly get a HoF?

That's virtual money so no need to accumulate at stack. If you loot 100k dasp and want immediately cash out FPC surely has 10k$ to pay you at any given point.

They just make sure loot formula in longer time gives people <100% and continuous stream of money from activities make balance. They won't go bankrupt because of not putting money on some sort of stack.

 

[HardWrath]

That's virtual money so no need to accumulate at stack. If you loot 100k dasp and want immediately cash out FPC surely has 10k$ to pay you at any given point.

This virtual money is real money so that means it has to come from somewhere. PED is generated when players deposit and we have already discussed how PED enters the loot system.

Furthermore, MindArk is at this point a pretty small company. They don’t have the funds to just hand out money and even if they did, they couldn’t do it forever. There has to be balance and for there to be balance there has to be a system in place to prevent things from getting out of control

 

[jupiajo]

Damn you HardWrath!

People come and give you eggs. Each egg is a ticket with probability of a prize (eggs ). Sum of probabilities is <1. My point is that you don't have to put those eggs in a basket and count them.

 

[HardWrath]

Damn you HardWrath!

People come and give you eggs. Each egg is a ticket with probability of a prize (eggs ). Sum of probabilities is <1. My point is that you don't have to put those eggs in a basket and count them.

You do have to count them when its real money otherwise you will run your self out of business very fast

 

[Spinage]

I know the earth is round based on the fact that scientists have seen it, studied it and proved it. You don't know anything about the "loot pool" end of. Nobody does, thats what I'm arguing. You don't know, so don't "teach" it.

(By the way I was also forced to take crappy general studies in college - uk - so don't lecture about Facts vs opinions vs that other one. It doesn't relate to this.)

Also stop telling me to read your posts again, they are long and repetative and basically, I've read it 200million times in other posts. Don't just collate all the random theories on the forum and post it in a "guide" format.

And I'd appreciate if you read my posts properly. Stop insinuating im so naive as to think it's possible for more to be taken (TT) than what is put in, plus I made it clear I understood the "liability" section in MA finance report, so don't again explain it. From what I can see, you are the one that is confusing it.

They group all Ped in game as a liability because it is used in their gross profit, but it is a LIABILITY because at any moment someone can make a withdrawel at any time. This in no way, shape, or form implies that the Ped is automatically in the loot system the moment it is deposited, (that would in fact duplicate all the in game ped until people have cycled out there current card).

Anyway, the argument isn't fully about semantics, its about this warped view of MA/loot that is spreading faster than 2girls1cup. Using false terms like "pool" and talking about it in a way where you imply you know how it works is silly. You should understand the negative views it spins off and how annoying that can be for a sane (i hope) person when getting through all the shit on the forums.

Facts about loot pool (be surprised at how short this list is considering all the posts on it):

• Loot is a Null system (variefied by MA support, obviously after decay)
• SOME decay is not recycled (as written numerous times by Marco, and also calrified as NOT ALL DECAY)
• Auction fees/ shop fees etc are cycled into the loot.
• Loot is not a "LootPool" (as confirmed by Marco, semantics or no)

Thats it. So anything else anybody says, at all, no matter what, without a quote from MA, is bullshit or opinion (aka BULLSHIT).

No offence, and sorry to bore everyone, but I don't see where the argument is. What's the benefit of calling it a lootpool when it's not one?

If it's just because people are used to it.. I wouldn't get so irate, but actually, thats not why people use it, because they then go on to describe the loot system with clear reference to what could be described as a "pool" and they don't know. Just.. nobody knows, so hopefully this can be the last 500 page essay on it.



Edit: I just read what someone was saying about the rule of large numbers, thats more or less how I see loot. But without a interest in maths, most people can't see past "what if MA gave more out than they got in"... They also shun comparisons to casino games, where to same type of system would be in effect, I don't see the difference.. I read one person say "MA doesn't have as much money as a Casino".... Maybe not a huge LA casino, but whatbout the casino in an old town centre or corner of a street in the North of England, how do they stay alive.

The rule of large numbers more than fits into everything we have been told so far. Also, it couldn't be classed as gambling because stuff has markup. Making it more like stocks (for want of a better comparison).

Ofc, I don't KNOW, no1 does, and really, it isn't even important, not one bit. Unless you think you can "crack it" (hello packet editting, hacking tutorials etc, hello prison) then it's just lalala, all the real important stuff is "%age of TT return" you can expect and "average MU", thats ALL you need to work out, which can be easily discovered with statistics, and have been, multiple times (90% anyone).

I won't post here again, this is boring.

 

[Spawn]

Here is that post



That post does cloud the picture a bit.

If we take this post at face value and only in a literal sense he isn’t saying anything about decay itself. He is only saying that they never "stated" things one way or another.

Yet I also do believe there is some level of truth to what that post implies and I also at least want to believe that it applies to melee weapons.

Ok then I could also use really bad decaying blp weapons that use up 100 ammo per shot and do a gazillion damage, and be equally distributing to the lootpool , then i would with an excellent decaying laser item, that fires away 24000 ammo per shot
Disqualifying your earlier statement about this.
(playing the devil's advocate here, not meant as a personal attack)

 

[Mischief]

I know the earth is round based on the fact that scientists have seen it, studied it and proved it. You don't know anything about the "loot pool" end of. Nobody does, thats what I'm arguing. You don't know, so don't "teach" it.
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I won't post here again, this is boring.

I couldn't be bothered with quoting all of it, but you get the picture if you read it.

Just one question, Spinage. Why so hostile? Your reaction is the reaction from one who is about to loose something, ranting and clubbing on all other opinions.

 

[Spinage]

Dunno how that came off as hostile at all.. It's pure assertive fact with perhaps a little bit of aggrivation at the constant regurgitation of "bullshit".

As a member of the NBK I have no wish to start disputes with both of you. But you mention that I sound like I'm about to lose something... I dunno what that means but I can say I have lost in the past when I first joined NBK and took the advice so easily of higher up member who I saw as knowledgable.

That's what I strive to stop in all my posts. To stop the spread of fiction in the form of fact that is actually hindering people, not helping.

PS, I love the NBK, every soc has it's 'member's, although I do wish that there were more like me higher up when I joined, just to tell me "yeah, that's their opinion, but ultimately nobody knows". I never got that, I got "loot is this and this, and there are cycles" etc etc "you must do this and this". No-one even to this day, has told me in soc to just hunt markup ores. They still happily are telling newer members to do things like "find your sweet spot and stay there", "amp in your luck cycle" etc. Where as the best advice I give (and I do get put down, or better to say, debated with) when new players join is "find a few places with good mark up ores/enmats and camp them"... (I get told, that that can reduce your TT finds and basically they'd rather get a TT global in lyst/oil than get a few IIs of typo/solis... despite not really knowing if searching for rarer stuff decreases TT returns.. but I digress, and I've gone back on my self and posted again - albeit as a reply)

Perhaps that's not for public forum, I hope this illustrates why I feel so annoyed at this flippant disclosure of "fiction in the form of fact".

 

[Kerham]

I can complete the above poster with "right place and right time" as the most popular urban myth around and in same time the most useless piece of EU description ever invented.

 

[HardWrath]

Indeed, basicly everyone should use non SIB laser weapons no matter what lvl they are, it will even out because of the size of the lootpool being increased and thus overall loot will be better. The efficiency then lies not in the damage per pec but in the loot per mob

nice list HW

So what weapon did you use today?

We should think of a derogatory term and use it for all players that use high decay weapons

Maybe we will start a trend and actually change something

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Crafters don’t generate decay [...]
Because crafters are losing PED on stackable items and not through decay, this is all money that cycles back into the loot system.

That's not true!
You've forgotten decay on Refiners. Some BPs allow to use raw materials, but most requires to refine ores, enamatters, bones, hides, wools, etc.
So decay on this tools will be revenue of MA.

Even though we have all of these other ways for PED to enter the system, it is all offset by the big HoFs and ATHs that we see all of the time. If MindArk would reduce the dramatically large loot amounts per X amount of players then we would have a more balanced loot system which in turn would lead to a more active and happy player base.

I think similar, but from marketing point of view, they are using this huge jackpots to attract some people...

Assumptions can be harmful if not repeatedly pointed out as an assumption/opinion. While your whole post makes "sense" it isn't really the truth. It's just what we assume.

I agree. We have to keep in mind that "this is how WE THINK things work".

A bit Off Topic, there is one thing that wonders me...
When you go to Casino to gamble your money, you can play games that have definite rules, that are no secret way how Casino will take your money.
In EU we only get some ideas of a rules, but there is nothing explained in details. I'm not even talking about giving us insight into details of how 'loot pool' works, i mean many other things. If not great community, we would not know many things, starting how skills affects professions, how big ESI i need to transfer x amount of skill, through many other usefull information, finishing on simply information why such mob y disappeared and where i can find mob z....
This is a bit like MA do what they want and they don't care about US. But at the end its We who are paying their wages.... I'm not sure if i'm lonely with this point of view, but i think that's not right way.

 

[Ionar]

All very interesting theorys. But does it make any difference what so ever?

All major studys of loot I've seen on this forum show about 90% TT return for all 3 profesions (mining, hunting, crafting) over time. That is unless you play abouve your level. This is allso consistent with my own experiance from crafting and mining (don't hunt enough to have an opinion on that).

So what difference does it make wether a certain activity "cyckles back to the loot pool" or not? We all get the same return any way.

And MA/FPC can say what ever the hell they want about what they take as income and not, at the end of the day TT spent - TT returned is what they take. No more, no less.

 

[nlnforever]

Yearly Deposited Peds - Yearly Withdrawn Peds = Yearly Profit

It's a very simple equation. You can conclude that equation by reading their yearly financial report.

MA just need to make the game more interesting, make more features so people will deposit more than they withdraw -> the game still goes on.

If Withdrawn Peds > Deposited Peds in the year, it means that MA has a loss. If the loss continues, they just shut down the company like any other business.

So simple to hardly misunderstand that basic concept.

 

[whoeier]

to keep u guys awake

Yep actual money needs to be counted and even traced troughout the company. The rule of 1=<1 doesn't aply in a company, thats nice on a carnaval, but in life you got to make sure you stay in the black letters, once you meet the red ones, you need to get a lot of money at once, see hardwraths story on decay etc.

but just to finish off:
----------------------------------------------------------

I still find it funny that a minor discussion point about a "loot pool" or any other word for it, could end up in a discussion, about how that "pool or system" might work and how MA takes profit from this game.

Its almost the same as WoW but then based upon a beter system. Highly active player pay a bigger part of the costs then all less active player. That is the decay trick in here. ( so yeah we all know, the highly active ones, do make the most chance in getting it back, the minors mostly lose ) But for short, you're paying for the use of that server, wich needs maintenance, so personel etc.... ( oh and a little profit )

Some people figured out how to bend this rule, by crafting, but they needed PEDs aswell, so or they deposited and bought skills to make their profession better ( they one selling it, paid the decay, most times more than the profit), or they learned it the hard way and went out on a hunt or mining trip.

Eventually we all pay, except for those just focussed on sweating and wanna make some minor extra out of this game. They made it boring for a reason!

The forgotten part in this whole story, not ment to attack anyone, is a simple word, interest.

Due to an constant flowing "loot pool / loot system" MA ensures themselfs that the cash that went in this game, won't go out that easily, only to the few players that gotten bored. Oh and yes for the stubborn ones, interest is built up daily, by most common banks.

but i think that when u align those 2 together, u will notice that decay isn't the only moneywall for MA.

 

[Mischief]

...Some people figured out how to bend this rule, by crafting...

Nope, there is no bending the rules possible really. Crafting is the same as any other profession with the slight difference that you can actually easily choose the degree of gambling.

And to calm those that doubt it, it is possible to profit.

just my

 

[Noggin]

I couldn't be bothered with quoting all of it, but you get the picture if you read it.

Just one question, Spinage. Why so hostile? Your reaction is the reaction from one who is about to loose something, ranting and clubbing on all other opinions.

You may be right there... but I do think he has a point. I too find it frustrating to read all this old crap about loot pool theory over and over again, and people spouting stuff responding to it, most of it based on absolutely no facts at all.

Obviously, I don't have a problem with folks airing their inane ponderings, as I really don't have to trawl through the thread if I don't want to. However, I do sometimes wish they'd have a bit more of a stab at understanding the very basic concepts underneath, as our angry friend Spinage points out.

However, I must +rep him, as it is a rant of the highest order

 

[Mischief]

Dunno how that came off as hostile at all.. It's pure assertive fact with perhaps a little bit of aggrivation at the constant regurgitation of "bullshit".

As a member of the NBK I have no wish to start disputes with both of you. But you mention that I sound like I'm about to lose something... I dunno what that means but I can say I have lost in the past when I first joined NBK and took the advice so easily of higher up member who I saw as knowledgable.

That's what I strive to stop in all my posts. To stop the spread of fiction in the form of fact that is actually hindering people, not helping.

PS, I love the NBK, every soc has it's 'member's, although I do wish that there were more like me higher up when I joined, just to tell me "yeah, that's their opinion, but ultimately nobody knows". I never got that, I got "loot is this and this, and there are cycles" etc etc "you must do this and this". No-one even to this day, has told me in soc to just hunt markup ores. They still happily are telling newer members to do things like "find your sweet spot and stay there", "amp in your luck cycle" etc. Where as the best advice I give (and I do get put down, or better to say, debated with) when new players join is "find a few places with good mark up ores/enmats and camp them"... (I get told, that that can reduce your TT finds and basically they'd rather get a TT global in lyst/oil than get a few IIs of typo/solis... despite not really knowing if searching for rarer stuff decreases TT returns.. but I digress, and I've gone back on my self and posted again - albeit as a reply)

Perhaps that's not for public forum, I hope this illustrates why I feel so annoyed at this flippant disclosure of "fiction in the form of fact".

Point taken.

You have your opinion and others have theirs, and it is as it should be.
The lack of good advise is harder to explain. Going for high MU loot mobs is supposedly regarded as common sense and knowledge and all other advise given is probably a result of various players urge and need to find the golden egg, to get an edge.
I've tried various different theories about what to hunt and where/when and almost all works out. For a while. Camping mobs, hunt on fixed times, go below your level, follow loot cycle, carpet bombing, vein spotting etc, etc.
You try a method once, get good return, try it again get ok return, third time also ok. Conclusion, it works. And this is where I think we jump into conclusions. Most players haven't got the stamina to stay exclusively on their task, just doing their thing. Friends wants you to join a team hunt, co to CND or whatever. If this sidetrack is successful, then how likely is the player to return to his/hers grinding within the original plan?

I know how good I am at returning, but you guys tell me, how good are you? Or the average player?

 

[whoeier]

Nope, there is no bending the rules possible really. Crafting is the same as any other profession with the slight difference that you can actually easily choose the degree of gambling.

And to calm those that doubt it, it is possible to profit.

just my

you'll need to read the full sentence, I really stated that even they are paying one way or another.

But further on you are correct on the gambling part.