Question: Does Crafting Send Loot back into the Loot Pool?

Lorespade

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I am a theory person. and i have noticed some weird things.

Due to some other information found on the forums dealing with supportcase whining. the responce from MA support says loot depends on your skill and the economy.

Well upon further thought. Does that mean. If no one buys the loot from hunters and miners, and does not convert it into a new item. via crafting. Would that mean that the economy and thus the loot drops can not support new loots to the gatherers.

So a lack of New crafters attempting the trade. "New crafters fail often" then the losses the new crafters do not supply new oppertunitys to the two other professions, becouse the loot is backed up in the markets" Bottlenecked".

As veteran crafters with a better success rate end up taking a share of the other crafters losses as well as contributing a small % to the loot pool, becouse they fail less. So the economy that crafters are supposed to be supporting does not exsist, does that mean that loot for other professions end up worse?

So my main question to crafters is this. What market conditions would encourage more crafter growth in the crafter community. and possibly improve the overall economy?


The new Teir system forces non crafters to take a chance into a psudo-crafting self loss in efforts to rid the market of items used to upgrade. when someone upgrades there is new loot that can be distributed.

But Normalized crafters due to a large Investment into Ores & Energymatters, pay more mark-ups to cycle the reasorces. when if the Mark ups were perhaps a little lower, they could cycle more and miners could make a little more due to more drops. possibly.

The Economy is dynmic, but is based alot on other varibles. I dont know them all and i dont know if what i said was right, but in theory.......

thanks for reading. sorry for any misspellings, i am very informal in my posts. and prefer comfort over correctness. :D
And I am unsure as to if this belongs in economic discussion or here in crafting. but the queston is aimed to crafters mostly.
 
Like the other professions, the average TT value return is lower than the TT value of what is put in over the long term. With regard to the TT value, like the other professions, Crafting is a PED loser and like the other professions crafters depend on the markup of their items to break even or turn a profit.

Of course then you also have the condition crafters who are gambling and trying to get an uber loot. Once in a while they hit but over the long term the TT value of what is put in will always be less then what is taken out.

I believe that the TT value of crafting that is lost is returned to the overall loot system.

The reason most blueprints aren’t clicked often is because they are almost a guaranteed PED loss because the item has little or no market value. This is because of a reduced amount of people playing EU combined with too many blueprints on the market.

There is about to be a huge influx of new players and new money to this game. Out of those people a certain percentage will start crafting. It would be very easy for MindArk to boost up the crafting profession by introducing new lines of craftable items
 
I read a post by Marco where he stated "there is no lootpool". Can't remember whcih thread..

:wtg:
 
I read a post by Marco where he stated "there is no lootpool". Can't remember whcih thread..

:wtg:

I have 1,000 EFD that says you cant produce the post where Marco said that. To be sure I just did a search through all of Marco's posts in this forum that contain the word "loot"
 
So as I said earlier, I couldn't remeber it exactly, this might be the one, but I'm sure I have read other posts that speak even more specifically about it (As in.. specific for Marco.. as in, not too specific, but enough for me)

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/general-economy-discussion/30286-how-does-mindkark-earn-profits-3.html


ALSO, OFFTOPIC: while we are looking through 200 year old posts, I wanna just make a refference to this, for no other reason than I hope some people (who think auction fees is taken by MA) will read it and then I don't have to explain it and get told otherwise everytime its mentioned.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/92752-post18.html
 
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:scratch2::ahh::confused::(Ty for quoting it, I dunno how to do that from other threads :/

But yeah, good enough for 1000EFD?:cool:
 
:scratch2::ahh::confused::(Ty for quoting it, I dunno how to do that from other threads :/

But yeah, good enough for 1000EFD?:cool:

Press the multi-quote button, then when posting in another thread there will be some text directly under the spot where you type. It'll have to 'links' which will allow you to put the multi-quote(s) into that post or to unselect all multi-quote(s). :)
 
:scratch2::ahh::confused::(Ty for quoting it, I dunno how to do that from other threads :/

But yeah, good enough for 1000EFD?:cool:

No it doesn’t.

Those posts by Marco have very little to do with what we are talking about. If you read the posts you see that Marco was reiterating that Decay from items is MindArk's profit and that’s all he was saying. That information is nothing new.

Because PED are essentially real money there has to be some kind of responsible accounting and allocation when it comes to distribution of PED. Because it is real money, loot distribution has to be based on how much is spent and put into the system.

Because item decay is not cycled back into the system and is instead recorded as profit (as said in your links) this is not a zero sum game. A zero sum game is something where the output matches the input.

The PED from Decay gets recorded as profit for MindArk which means those PEDs leave the game permanently

Ammo burn, bomb and probe usage, etc are cycled into the loot system as you use your items. There are other sources of PED input into the loot system but that’s another topic.

There is nothing magical or mystical about the loot system. It is a computer program that runs off of algorithms which means that there is a method to the madness and that is why we call it the “loot system”. It is in fact a system... Another name for that is "loot pool", the two terms are synonymous in this context.

The specific question/topic of this thread is "Does Crafting Send Loot back into the Loot Pool?" The answer to that question is yes. Crafting doesn’t generate decay however it does generate a PED loss when the TT value of the crafting result is less than the TT value of the ingredients. That PED (Money) has to go somewhere and since the PED loss in crafting is from the TT value of stackable items, and not Decay then that means it cycles back into the loot pool aka loot system.

I have gone in-depth about this stuff in other threads.
 
This post by Marco proves what I am saying:

No, MindArks revenue stream is from decay. So it is not an urban legend. All other areas (auction fee, ammo, etc) is cycled back into the economy.

Think about what he is said for a minute.

Now, there is only one place where "fees, ammo, etc" can be cycled "back into the economy" and that is the loot system.
 
No it doesn’t.

Those posts by Marco have very little to do with what we are talking about. If you read the posts you see that Marco was reiterating that Decay from items is MindArk's profit and that’s all he was saying. That information is nothing new.

I interpretted from the main post that the loot pool isn't somthing that exists and is just a urban legend within the commune.

As posted before and quoted from a Support Case, loot is made when you click. From what I understand, that is for hunting, mining & crafting. And the items are just Queued for drop if the factors the are used meet the requirments.

Say a 76 Ped Basic Filters Global, needs Factor 1 to be X+, Factor2 Y+ and Factor 3 Z- (I know there are more factors, but a basic example). Say Factor 1 is Peds cycled that session, Factor 2 is Clicks done and Factor 3 is amount of Filters currently in circulation.

We know there are Factors for loot, we know loot is made when you click. And Marco has posted something that basicly says, there is no loot pool.

Used PED (non-decay) is just (in my opinion) added to the Queue of that Mob/Area/BP(of same type).

Ohwell, I hope I havn't gone off-topic (too much?)
 
Of course. But there isn't really a loot "pool" which would (in my reading) mean a storage, or list of loot that people "pick" or "loot" items from (at random or through conditions).

By not classifying it as a "pool", it opens up a lot more avenues of thought, which (again, my opinion) are much more sensible.

List of examples that are just as likely as the widely believed "lootpool" theory.all thought of right now in my head, and not really my beliefs
Example one:
TT value of items used are instantly re-allocated to a different loot, meaning if there is more going in at that precise moment (time gap of maybe a minute), bigger loots are available to all players, meaning higher player base- better loot.

Example Two:
By using items, TT value of items/ammo/auction fee build charge (n) that when complete results in an "end action" which can be a loot of TT value xn, yn, zn or 0 etc

Examples over, because basically they all sound as ridiculous as loot pool :p and i'm tired.

Hopefully you get what I'm talking about... "Lootpool" implies an intended reading. MA/FPC/Marco/EU/PE never invented, created, or solicited "LootPool", therefore it is not MA/FPC/Marco/EU/PE's intended reading of how the loot is distributed. Any of those examples are just as likely.

Edit: to clarify, I am just saying that Marco clearly says there is no "lootpool" and although he says it in a rather.. cryptic and joking manner (as is his way) he rarely gives info like this and I think it's his way of dismissing the "typical" and most believed thinking of how loot works...


Ontopic: I would believe that the the TT losses from crafting do get redistributed into the loot "system" (thankyou HW :p). Also, although I really can not be bothered digging it up, there is a post from Marco that speaks about materials of crafted items being redistributed when items are used/TTed... (not so specific again)
 
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I interpretted from the main post that the loot pool isn't somthing that exists and is just a urban legend within the commune.

Ok let me quote them all right here then:


Notice the wink & smile there? Anyway, his two links point to this:

I can do it again - MindArks revenue stream is from deterioation of items when they are used.

No, MindArks revenue stream is from decay. So it is not an urban legend. All other areas (auction fee, ammo, etc) is cycled back into the economy.

The only way that you can interpret that differently is if you put words in his mouth.

As posted before and quoted from a Support Case, loot is made when you click. From what I understand, that is for hunting, mining & crafting. And the items are just Queued for drop if the factors the are used meet the requirments.

You are correct when you say that loot for your avatar is generated when you click.

Say a 76 Ped Basic Filters Global, needs Factor 1 to be X+, Factor2 Y+ and Factor 3 Z- (I know there are more factors, but a basic example). Say Factor 1 is Peds cycled that session, Factor 2 is Clicks done and Factor 3 is amount of Filters currently in circulation.

Ok it’s a lot simpler than that for what we are talking about which is where the money goes. The formulas and conditions for what determines your loot amount will only be partially known and that is a whole different topic.

We know there are Factors for loot, we know loot is made when you click. And Marco has posted something that basicly says, there is no loot pool.

Marco hasnt said anything of the sort and as I already pointed out, everything that he has said further indicates a loot system aka loot pool.

Think about what you are saying for a minute. This is real money that people can withdraw into the real world. Without a loot system based on the PED value that is put into game, what prevents the game from giving way too much money? Because this is real money, there has to be a loot distribution system in place based on the input into the game itself. Some people choose to call that system the "loot pool" however I choose to call it the "loot system"
 
Thank you Hardwrath for yet again teaching loot pool theory. hehe.

What ever the loot system might be. there has to be some kind of accountability to the amount of ped, to the amount of items being distributed. MA just doesnt give away free money it comes from somewhere.

If Deposits for the month total 100k USD. MA isnt going to release 200k USD in loot. So regardless of the system, or how you feel the system works. the question is simple. (Refer to topic)

Although i take no offence to off topic disscussion of if loot pool dynamics exsist. I concider it to be like GOD. you cant prove God's exsistance. but you beleive God is there. Funny thing cuz i am agnostic...... But anyways.

thanks for the disscussions :D
 
Think about what you are saying for a minute. This is real money that people can withdraw into the real world. Without a loot system based on the PED value that is put into game, what prevents the game from giving way too much money? Because this is real money, there has to be a loot distribution system in place based on the input into the game itself. Some people choose to call that system the "loot pool" however I choose to call it the "loot system"

Just to clarify, I don't mean to imply there is not loot/distribution/balancing system, I'm just statying that the term "lootpool" is a very poor one and your "loot system" is much better.

I think Marco would agree, which was what that quote was for. The more people use "lootpool", the more it is ingrained into the community that there is some sort of "pool" which loot is taken from... which is just.. well, i am not MA so I can't say wrong, but no1 can say it's right, and (if you haven't noticed from my other posts) I don't like how people so easily imply things are "right" that they, in all honestly, know no nothing about.

Which is why I like the use of system by you better than pool. Wasn't really a big issue, I just vaguely remembered Marco mentioning something about it and brought it up:ahh:
 
Just to clarify, I don't mean to imply there is not loot/distribution/balancing system, I'm just statying that the term "lootpool" is a very poor one and your "loot system" is much better.

I think Marco would agree, which was what that quote was for. The more people use "lootpool", the more it is ingrained into the community that there is some sort of "pool" which loot is taken from... which is just.. well, i am not MA so I can't say wrong, but no1 can say it's right, and (if you haven't noticed from my other posts) I don't like how people so easily imply things are "right" that they, in all honestly, know no nothing about.

Which is why I like the use of system by you better than pool. Wasn't really a big issue, I just vaguely remembered Marco mentioning something about it and brought it up:ahh:

I like system better too. but pool sounds more fun.

Can we agree to make the loot system a loot pool where you have to be systematic in order to swim in the pool?

If you dont abide by the system's rules you cant swim in the pool. PERIOD
 
I think that sometimes when people think about the term "loot pool" they envision a swimming pool full of money free for the taking.

A "loot pool" is nothing more than collection of funds designated for a specific purpose. There has to be a source for that money. I think that we can all agree that the source of the funds for the loot system somehow comes from our deposits in to the game.

Ok now we agree on that so lets break this down step by step.

You deposit $1,000 USD (10,000 PED) into the game. Let’s take that a step farther and say that 1,000 people each deposit $1,000 USD into the game so that is 1 million dollars total. Now without anything else happening to that money and with it still sitting on everyone's PED cards ask yourself: "what would happen if MindArk spent that money themselves or gave it away in loot but then all of those people decided to withdraw their deposit?" The answer is Mindark would be screwed.

This means that MindArk has to classify Player Held Funds as a liability aka a debt. If you have money your PED card, or even tied up in TT value, then that is money that you can immediately withdraw whenever you want. This means that as long as you have that PED value, then Mindark owes you that much money.

Now before you guys freak out and think that I am making things up or that this is just a theory please read MA's own financial report. Here is the link to the most recent one:

http://mindark.se/press/financial-reports/documents/Semi-Annual-report-Q2-2009.pdf

On page 3 of the PDF MindArk talks about what they call "Contingent Liabilities" and here is their description of it:

MindArk defines user holdings as the net of users’ funds deposited into and withdrawn from the Entropia Universe. This means that at any given moment the users in Entropia Universe own substantial sums of unused assets in the virtual currency, PED. These user holdings are treated as a financial undertaking that is shown as a contingent liability under memorandum items. On June 30, MindArk’s contingent liabilities totaled approximately 58 million SEK compared to approximately 39 million SEK on June 30 the preceding year.

Ok, now if you are still with me there are two points that we can agree on here. One is that the loot we get has to somehow come from the deposits into the game. The second is that MindArk clearly tracks and defines Player Held Funds as a liability or debt which means they can’t just go and spend it all.

So at this point we took 1000 USD from your bank account and put it into the game via a deposit. That is it. Now from here there has to be a way for two things to happen. The first thing is for you to spend that money (PED) and in some way generate revenue for MindArk that is free for them to keep without owing you anything. The second thing that has to happen is that you need to derive some kind of enjoyment, entertainment, satisfaction, or value out of what you spend which will cause you to deposit and spend more again and again.

So then we have the standard professions so let’s think about them for a moment.

You buy an Ore Finder OF-105 for TT+20 PED and then you repair it up to the full TT amount which is 82 PED. Now a couple of things happened and didn’t happen here.

First that +20 PED markup simply went to another player so it’s still Player Held Funds, or a Contingent Liability because they still "owe" that money to another player. The TT value of that finder also simply transfered from you to him.

Next is that you repaired your OF-105 which actually changed nothing. MindArk didn’t make any money when you did that because all that happened was PED transferred from your PED card into that OF-105. Because of its TT value, MA still has the same Contingent Liability.

Make sense? Good.

Now you go and buy the other necessary mining equipment and each has the same scenario when you purchase and repair. Next you visit the Trade Terminal and buy 100 PED bombs. Now all that happened here is that PED transferred from your PED Card into the TT value of those bombs which are now in your inventory. It’s the same Contingent Liability so far.

Next you go out and start mining. As you mine, each time you drop a bomb looking for ore there are two major things that happen:

The Decay from the finder disappears from the game economy and is now recorded as "Gross Profit" for MindArk. This is a direct reduction of Contingent Liabilities and is now disposable income for MindArk.

With each bomb that gets dropped the TT value leaves your inventory but even though this TT value leaves your inventory it doesn’t really change MindArk's overall Contingent Liability because someone else (or you) will loot that TT value back somehow.

In addition to both of those things, now the dynamics of the loot system come into play. Fast forward through your entire 100 PED mining run, let’s say you come back with 80 PED TT value in resources but those resources have a 200% markup so the total value of your finds are 160 PED. When you sell this ore, the market value has no bearing on any of this, it’s simply PED changing hands between players and it’s all just a contingent liability, the same with the TT value. Notice though that 20 PED disappeared here. You went out with 100 PED of bombs and came back with 80 PED TT value. Yes you turned a profit because of the market value when you sold it to another player but where did that other 20 PED go? Is it missing? Did it disappear? No, that other 20 PED is in the "Loot Pool" (yes I said Loot Pool) and it will be looted at some point by another player.

In the above scenario you generated decay for MindArk's profits and you left 20 PED behind in the loot system and the only reason you made a profit is because the ore you found was worth 200%. We all know that most resources are worth a lot less than that.

Now let’s revisit something that Marco said:

No, MindArk’s revenue stream is from decay. So it is not an urban legend. All other areas (auction fee, ammo, etc) are cycled back into the economy.

Ammo gets cycled back into the economy (loot system) and decay is MindArk's profit which means that it leaves the game economy.

Now think about hunting for example.

Go out with 300 PED ammo for your BLP weapon, after amp, fap, armor, and gun decay you ended up generating 200 PED decay. So now you have a total hunting cost of 500 PED (ammo + decay). Even though you are only putting 300 PED ammo into the loot system, just to break even you need to come out with 500 PED total which is 200 PED more then what you put into it in the first place. Ouch.

Everyone else who is mining and hunting are hoping to do the same thing. They are each feeding MindArk's profit through decay but they are only cycling their ammo/bombs/probes into the loot system, yet they all want to get at least their ammo + decay back.

The math doesn’t work there and this is why we have such shit loot always.

MindArk takes the decay but only the value of the ammo and bombs cycle through the loot system. Meanwhile everyone is hoping that they will get back at least their ammo plus decay costs. Well something has to give.

All of the various fees in game also cycle into the loot system. All of the estate maintenance fees, all of the event fees, auction fees, advertisement system fees, etc enter the loot system. Of all of these things, the auction fees are really the only thing that as a significant impact on the loot returns simply because of sheer auction sales volume. Even all of these things put together aren’t enough to balance the loot system out.

Crafters don’t generate decay but they do generate two things. First they create (L) items that will decay by the end user. Second they create a whole bunch of TT value losses while they craft. Crafters depend on the markup of the items to break even or make a profit. Meanwhile Condition crafters who like to gamble on full condition add a dramatic amount of TT value losses. Because crafters are losing PED on stackable items and not through decay, this is all money that cycles back into the loot system.

PKers are also a fantastic source of PED for the loot system. Each time they fire their gun at another player, they are simply dumping PED into the loot system because they aren’t getting a chance to loot a creature in return.

Missed shots are a strait dump of PED into the loot system. For those of you that want to donate to my next hof, please buy 1000 PED ammo, stand in Twin Peaks or something and shoot it all off into the air :laugh:

In summary, there are all kinds of ways where PED enters the "Loot Pool" aka "Loot System" and there is nothing magical about it. If you accept the fact that there is a system which controls loot then you accept the fact that there is a Loot Pool... or whatever you want to call it.

Even though we have all of these other ways for PED to enter the system, it is all offset by the big HoFs and ATHs that we see all of the time. If MindArk would reduce the dramatically large loot amounts per X amount of players then we would have a more balanced loot system which in turn would lead to a more active and happy player base.
 
{snipped}

See i read all of that. and it makes perfict sense.

I cant really see how anyone can argue with Hardwrath's Words here. It is the whole loot system in a nutshell. And the system itself cannot be exploited.

AND I Still want to SWIM in the LOOT POOL! :yay:

But the moral of the story is. and my question answered. becouse there is no decay in crafting, any losses in crafting go to the loot pool, to be systematicaly looted by other players, dependant on certain varibles and luck.


Now hardwrath i have yet one more question. mostly aimed for you.

If ammo type is a trigger for generating certain loot types, such as ammo, or bombs and probes, Would these items generated when used by crafters Act as Triggers into the same loot type of orgin?

Like crafting with ores losses result in the ore being put back and added as a certain type. Like crafting with lyst.... a crafters loss to be added to someone's lyst drop.

sorry if it sounds confizzling.
 
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So HardWrath this deep understanding of loot pool made you quit hunting, sell your skills and become a trader?
 
I accept the fact there is a system, but your logic is flawed when you say this means I accept there is a loot pool.

It is flawed in these ways:

1. You assume peds are put into some "pool" upon deposit, and not upon decay. MA states Ped as a liability, but it doesn't mean that it's already in the "pool" it just means that they are spending deposits as they come, or using them in there gross, but they can be withdrew at any time. (id already read this report before you linked it, it's not news to me).

2. You assume that that 20 ped that vanished in your example has not already been looted, through any other loot theory, or any method nobody has even though up. For all we know, everytime you clicked, the decay of that click and the decay of others fed the next person to click loot (with parameters).

3. You assume my definition of loot pool is the same as yours.

4. You assume that MA take all decay (they have said get profit from decay, not that they use all decay).

5. You assume that by not accepting a "loot-pool" theory, I am not accepting that thre is a system with definite rules to not allow output being higher than input.


With respect, you assume too much. Although, + rep for time... tho i think i already repped you so I can't.

Assumptions can be harmful if not repeatedly pointed out as an assumption/opinion. While your whole post makes "sense" it isn't really the truth. It's just what we assume.
 
I accept the fact there is a system, but your logic is flawed when you say this means I accept there is a loot pool.

It is flawed in these ways:

1. You assume peds are put into some "pool" upon deposit, and not upon decay. MA states Ped as a liability, but it doesn't mean that it's already in the "pool" it just means that they are spending deposits as they come, or using them in there gross, but they can be withdrew at any time. (id already read this report before you linked it, it's not news to me).

2. You assume that that 20 ped that vanished in your example has not already been looted, through any other loot theory, or any method nobody has even though up. For all we know, everytime you clicked, the decay of that click and the decay of others fed the next person to click loot (with parameters).

3. You assume my definition of loot pool is the same as yours.

4. You assume that MA take all decay (they have said get profit from decay, not that they use all decay).

5. You assume that by not accepting a "loot-pool" theory, I am not accepting that thre is a system with definite rules to not allow output being higher than input.


With respect, you assume too much. Although, + rep for time... tho i think i already repped you so I can't.

Assumptions can be harmful if not repeatedly pointed out as an assumption/opinion. While your whole post makes "sense" it isn't really the truth. It's just what we assume.

I just want to point out to you that you are using your brain, and thats all that matters. You have some ideas that may differ from someone elses. and that is good. becouse you can bring up some good points.

I dont think that freshly deposited money is automaticaly converted into loot. but when a ammo is spent, that is when in fact the loot pool is filled.

However. you bring up one very interesting point, one that i am really thinking about. and that is.

your 2nd point. the fact that when you experience a loss, that is the same moment someone else experences a gain.

now this would mean 1 thing. That the exsistance of a loot pool is very liquid. in a sense that what goes in is taken out almost immediately. not giving time for a "Pool To fill up" but the system itself still kicks back the TT value to the best person in the runnings, of lets say all the people that dropped a probe at 12 midnight at the same time. some win some lose, and some win big.

And i totaly want to still say. This is like GOD. GOD may or may not exsist. But we still have openions on the subject. And i may not be religous, but i dont step on others beleifs. be it god Or lootsystempools. :D

I just wanna Swim with Lootius in the great Loot Pool. :wtg:
 
So HardWrath this deep understanding of loot pool made you quit hunting, sell your skills and become a trader?

No. I sold my skills in 2008 when I took a break from the game because I needed money in real life. I do hunt but never that seriously and I have traded since early 2006 in some way shape or form.

Furthermore, an understanding of the flow of PED in EU is totally different then understanding the mechanics of the loot system.


I accept the fact there is a system, but your logic is flawed when you say this means I accept there is a loot pool.

It is flawed in these ways:

1. You assume peds are put into some "pool" upon deposit, and not upon decay. MA states Ped as a liability, but it doesn't mean that it's already in the "pool" it just means that they are spending deposits as they come, or using them in there gross, but they can be withdrew at any time. (id already read this report before you linked it, it's not news to me).

You should read what I wrote again.

When PED enters the game it goes on your PED card. Your PED card balance plus your total TT value is MindArk's contingent liability toward you. This is fact, not fiction and not theory. The availability of these funds in the form of real world liquid assets needs to be maintained.

Decay permanently leaves the game economy and is recorded as gross profit for MindArk.

2. You assume that that 20 ped that vanished in your example has not already been looted, through any other loot theory, or any method nobody has even though up. For all we know, everytime you clicked, the decay of that click and the decay of others fed the next person to click loot (with parameters).

It doesn’t matter if it’s looted instantaneously by someone else or an hour from when it happens. The point is still the same.

3. You assume my definition of loot pool is the same as yours.

From what I can tell, you define the term Loot Pool as an accumulation of PEDs that will be eventually be distributed in loot.

Think about an All Time High loot for example. Do you think that someone somewhere instantaneously injected 70K PED (or whatever) into the loot system? No, that PED was built up and when the time and circumstances were right some lucky sob got the ATH.

If loot output were simultaneous with loot input then there would be a total breakdown of the whole system. There has to be a buffer which means that an accumulation of PED into the loot system has to happen to some extent, thus we have a pool of loot.

4. You assume that MA take all decay (they have said get profit from decay, not that they use all decay).

Marco has said it more then once in no unclear terms. MindArk takes the decay as profit. Every bit of information over the years points to MindArk taking all of the decay as their own profit. Furtheremore, if you look at MindArk's finnancial statement you will see that their available cash is less then their total Contingent Liabilities (our deposits) which means that they have been spending those deposits as well. When I started 4 years ago, 100% of our TT value was backed up by a guarantee from MindArk. These days the followng (from the ToU) is the only guarantee

MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS YOU SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE TOTAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED INTO THE INVOLVED ACCOUNT BY SAID PARTICIPANT UNDER SIX MONTHS PERIOD PRIOR TO THE INCIDENT

MindArk needs every bit of gross profit that they can get right now.

5. You assume that by not accepting a "loot-pool" theory, I am not accepting that thre is a system with definite rules to not allow output being higher than input.

You are arguing semantics here. It doesn’t matter if you want to call it a pink buffalo, by whatever you want to call the loot system it does exist. There is a loot system, some people call it a loot pool, and it does accumulate PED for distribution in the three standard professions.


With respect, you assume too much. Although, + rep for time... tho i think i already repped you so I can't.

Assumptions can be harmful if not repeatedly pointed out as an assumption/opinion. While your whole post makes "sense" it isn't really the truth. It's just what we assume.

You also assume that the Earth is round when in fact you don’t actually know that its round. There are all kinds of things around you to lead you to believe that it is round but in fact you have never ever seen the earth in its entirety from a distance to know that it is in fact round.

Do you get my point?

Every bit of evidence and official comment that we have about decay indicates that MindArk takes ALL of the decay as their own profit.

For the last year or two Mindark has been bleeding cash as they focused on implementing the new game engine which we saw in VU10.0. During this time they did next to nothing to attract new players to EU which means through natural attrition, their player base shrank month after month. With a declining player base and larger expenses than ever before, do you really believe that out of some kind of generosity MindArk didn’t keep all of the decay as their own profit?

Look at their balance sheet, it’s a mess. They have less liquid assets then they have liabilities. With the CP sale and all of the huge deposits in game right now, it will make their next financial report look pretty nice however a person can easily see through that. Fortunately with things to come in the very near future, starting in mid 2010 MindArk's balance sheet will start to look very healthy.

Anyway, back to my point. Every bit of evidence and comment from MA about Decay shows that they keep all of it for themselves as profit. Any theory that conflicts with that is pure speculation and assumption.
 
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When first saw this thread I was like... Ahhh, the loot pool... :D

Got more interesting as I read on, and the posts made by Hardwrath seems to cover all aspects on the subject.
Nothing new but well put so it became easliy understood to all and everyone in my opinion.

We can have all kinds of theories about how loot is created and distrbuted but fact is that Mindark is making a living out of this so it makes perfect sense that the system looks and works the way it does.
The actual distribution of loot is irrelevant to be honest, the only way you can influence that is by cycling peds. More peds cycled equals more return but does not equals profit.
But, a system like this seems to be perfectly balanced in the way that if you, and all other played indefinetely we would all break even in the long run. OR?

But I am off-topic here. Sorry.
 
wave theory...

I believe in the wave theory a little since you can see several globals all appear at once usually... which means there is a wave that creates several lucky folks at once. Whether the wave is created due to location, time, or whatever is up in the air for speculation. I personally think it has to do with time more than anything else, and is tied to big spending... i.e. I believe that folks that gamble on big stuff - in either hunting, crafting, or whatever causes the loot pool to grow for a small window of time and their losses feed the folks further down the food chain, which is why you see like 5 or 6 globals from different people all hit at once. Auktuma's crafting losses is causing wins for people spending less that are hitting the button or making the kill right in that second or something like that... His wins are dependent on his skills + basic system... may be a half hour timer where beginning of half hour is random?

The Decay from the finder disappears from the game economy and is now recorded as "Gross Profit" for MindArk. This is a direct reduction of Contingent Liabilities and is now disposable income for MindArk.
I too believe that Mindark makes cash off of our using the items, crafting, hunting, mining, putting ads in to signs to decay them, etc. That's why I think the new tier system was put in to place... last years financials resulted in less return on investment for Mindark than expected, so they needed a new way to get more decay money coming in. The best way to do that is to force people to start decaying things more and repairing them more... notice how the tier system puts an emphasis on you repairing unlimited items instead of continuing to drop the tt food in to the tt machine to just feed the loot pool and stay even with the amount of money you had. The tiers causes more players to do more things that cause decay because they will be in hopes that the upgrade process will succeed. It also has a side effect that you can lose the item, which gives the balancing manager more power since he can cause a certain set number of items to exist and only that number to exist. If too many exist now, the upgrade process can be made to automatically kill off a certain number of items deleting them forever. If there's a need for more items at a certain tier level, the upgrade process can be made to be successful for x amount of tries, etc. There's a possibility that the randomness to it is not random at all. Since we'll never be given the algorithm or random number seeds or anything, who's to say MA doesn't have the thing programmed to auto delete any certain unlimited sib items every time an attempt is made, or maybe they can read this and change that to certain items tomorrow just to prove me wrong... there's a hidden trust factor in all of this going on. How far do you want to trust them? It's a game... but are the cards stacked? House usually wins, but maybe not always?
 
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"about your quote of decay

Then if it is the truth, why wouldn't we all go with laser weapons because they have a better durability, BLP weapons are known for for their decay and lower ammo cost.
Laser weapons due to their durability and higher ammo cost..

What Mind Ark is telling are pure lies afaic
Indeed there is no loot pool, there is a deteriation of items in for of decay+other costs like ammo. The efficiency is cost per click and the costs are devided into income for Mind Ark and recyled into the pool.

Or do you disagree and follow what Mind Ark is telling about the decay? if so I would like to ask everyone to use high ammo cost + exceptional decay..
 
Say a 76 Ped Basic Filters Global, needs Factor 1 to be X+, Factor2 Y+ and Factor 3 Z- (I know there are more factors, but a basic example). Say Factor 1 is Peds cycled that session, Factor 2 is Clicks done and Factor 3 is amount of Filters currently in circulation.
Why Factors? X=random("10000") ;)





Greetings - Zwarka
 
Then if it is the truth, why wouldn't we all go with laser weapons because they have a better durability, BLP weapons are known for for their decay and lower ammo cost.
Laser weapons due to their durability and higher ammo cost..

What Mind Ark is telling are pure lies afaic
Indeed there is no loot pool, there is a deteriation of items in for of decay+other costs like ammo. The efficiency is cost per click and the costs are devided into income for Mind Ark and recyled into the pool.

Or do you disagree and follow what Mind Ark is telling about the decay? if so I would like to ask everyone to use high ammo cost + exceptional decay..

Your initial observation is correct. If everyone in game used high ammo burn and low decay weapons then there would be more PED in the loot system and less overall profit for MindArk.

Keep that thought in mind and now let’s think about how loot has been over the last couple of years. We all have noticed significant reductions over time.

I am sure you have noticed how quickly most of the (L) weapons decay. Don’t forget that during this trend of introducing higher decay and lower ammo burn weapons over the last couple of years Mindark has needed money more than ever for a variety of reasons.

Let’s look at specifics:

Old Weapons:
EP-41 Military = 1.3 Pec decay per click (55 dmg)
Justifier MK.V = 1.25 Pec decay per click (59 dmg)
ML-35 = 2.5 Pec decay per click (81 dmg)

New Weapons
LR32 (L) = 3.1 Pec decay per click (66 damage)
LR48 (L) = 3.3 Pec decay per click (79 damage)
LR59 (L) = 4.2 Pec decay per click (99 damage)

Now let’s take an apples to apples comparison and look at SGA items

ML-35 = 2.5 Pec decay
ML-35 SGA = 3.2 Pec decay

Improved Justifier Mk.2 = .25 Pec decay
Improved Justifier Mk.2 SGA = .87 Pec decay

Justifier Mk.2 = .46 Pec decay
Justifier Mk.2 SGA = .94 Pec decay

EP-41 Military = 1.3 Pec decay
EP-41 Military SGA = 2.02 Pec decay

FreanD Delta = 3.5 Pec decay
FreanD Delta SGA = 4.2 Pec decay

The list goes on and on and it is obvious that MindArk has been continuously introducing weapons of all kinds that have higher decay per shot and less ammo burn. FPC and MA swear that the "loot system has not changed" yet we all see a sharp reduction in total loots. Technically MA & FPC are telling the truth, the loot system has not changed however what has changed is that over the last couple of years and now with SGA they have been introducing weapons that channel more money in profit through decay and less money into the loot system through ammo burn. This is one of the reasons why loot is so bad these days.

If you guys think that extra PEC or two per shot is insignificant well simply multiply it by 2000 or 3000 shots which is the normal size hunt for most people. 3000 PEC = 30 PED. Even a Fi/Ra/Co Beast amp is good for about 5000 shots before it breaks.
 
Wow.. sorry guys.. all this time I have been using axes.. not contributing a single pec to the loot pool!

All melee users should be banned! they don't feed the lootpool, only take!
 
Wow.. sorry guys.. all this time I have been using axes.. not contributing a single pec to the loot pool!

All melee users should be banned! they don't feed the lootpool, only take!

Indeed, basicly everyone should use non SIB laser weapons no matter what lvl they are, it will even out because of the size of the lootpool being increased and thus overall loot will be better. The efficiency then lies not in the damage per pec but in the loot per mob

nice list HW
 
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