Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

[CozMoDan]

You usually got one or two globals on one lvl 2 amp on calypso? Now you were lucky. I know it took me about 5-6 lvl 2 amps to get one (or oa101 in old days). So you are not whining about loot becoming more steady but that your personal loot has gone down?

If you want to mine for profit or close to break-even then you should be satisfied with the "new mining system"
If you want to mine for fun or to satisfy your gambling addiction, then buy few lvl 10 + amps and head to foma or hell and you will have some fun. (even lvl 5 amp will land you nice amount of globals and rare hofs on foma or hell).

I don't think it was really a whine, just disappointed that it seems no one has a chance of a big one without doing exactly what you are saying. Mining in not my primary profession so I just, as you can tell, do it for the fun of it and it is really of little consequence. I have noticed that there are a lot of 80-120 ped HOFs which I did see that much before the change, you need something bigger. As way no big deal just thinking out loud.

 

[CozMoDan]

Just because you get 90% return over time in the TT doesn't mean your real return is always 90%. Markup is the key to success

Very true grasshopper.

 

[-Archangel-]

I don't think it was really a whine, just disappointed that it seems no one has a chance of a big one without doing exactly what you are saying.

I think there was an improvement.

Because

For someone to get that major loot

somebody had to made it available in the first place.





The money comes from the players
MA isn't a charity.

 

[Profit]

Been on FOMA last two days.
Claim-size feels like I'm on Calypso...

 

[Arkad]

So. When talking about uneco hunt it's only going for UL weapons/amps, because L item's eco varies with MU?

As for me, lvl 54 blp pistoleer. I don't really have options on what gun to use because there are no stronger less eco weapons for my lvl than Enigma or Project-Zero (when MU is good).

After trying out Philosopher's sword i decided to get x2 Archon swords. I can farm mobs with up to 300 HP and breaking even or getting %90+ returns (TT value) after each long run of 5+ k peds and that's without a single HoF.
Archon has 2.98 DPP eco, best you can get of melee and is best to farm mobs such as little argonauts.
The only thing i don't like that i have no patience for killing same mob for at least a month. That would probably give me more ubers.

Anyway, it's a game, A gamble when we talk about uber loots. So the only thing we can really control is the decision what mobs to kill, that have atlesst 110% overall loots MU. MindArk said that every mob will constantly drop MU resources in 2013, but it doesnt seem to be truth yet.

 

[Captain Jack]

After trying out Philosopher's sword i decided to get x2 Archon swords. I can farm mobs with up to 300 HP and breaking even or getting %90+ returns (TT value) after each long run of 5+ k peds and that's without a single HoF.
Archon has 2.98 DPP eco, best you can get of melee and is best to farm mobs such as little argonauts.
The only thing i don't like that i have no patience for killing same mob for at least a month. That would probably give me more ubers.

That's the ticket mate, longevity. At least 5k ped spree on mobs that cost ~1 ped to kill is about right for averaging your results - so you end up killing at least 5,000 mobs before moving onto the next. So if you're killing mobs costing 10 ped each, make sure you do at least 50,000 PED "camps", and so on.

The eco plays in with (L) weapons too, but you don't get loot for the markup you spend. As such, it's best to use low markup weapons to hunt for markup and sell it.

 

[ermik]

That's the ticket mate, longevity. At least 5k ped spree on mobs that cost ~1 ped to kill is about right for averaging your results - so you end up killing at least 5,000 mobs before moving onto the next. So if you're killing mobs costing 10 ped each, make sure you do at least 50,000 PED "camps", and so on.

The eco plays in with (L) weapons too, but you don't get loot for the markup you spend. As such, it's best to use low markup weapons to hunt for markup and sell it.

Just because tt return is used as s number to see result of a hunt doesent mean loot is based on tt cost, its more likely dmg based and then L markup is of no concern as long as you get a decent dmg/pec.

 

[Jimmy B]

a plateholder is an armor with 0 defense on the mob you want hunting and you put plate on it.

with a plateholder you armor decay is 0 and plate take 100% decay.

Im using settler + 6a on drone

or settler + 5a on argo

settler has no decay and my plates takes all the decay and they have better eco and no MU so its better for me than using a shogun on drones by example

Sorry to bump this post, but just came across it and wanted to add something. Apologies if someone else has already said the same thing.

Using the plateholder effect like that is valid (although not in the example you give, since Shogun has higher durability than the plates), and can be an improvement over using unplated armour in some situations. It is never optimal though (except possibly in the case of very high durability L plates with low MU). That is because the more damage an armour piece or plate absorbs the more decay you get (ie. 20 dmg absorbed decays more than two 10dmg absorbed). For UL items this is more significant than any durability effects.

So you're better off spreading the damage over a smaller armour and smaller plate if you can find something suitable.

Example with Drones
1. Settler (600 Durability, 1 dmg)+6A (1400 dura, 23 dmg) v Drone: 1.900 PEC decay for 24 damage absorbed (0.079 pec per dmg)

2. Shogun (1700 durability, 15 dmg) v Drone: 1.074 PEC decay for 15 damage absorbed (0.072 pec per dmg)

So Settler+6A compared to Shogun Unplated is a bit hard to compare. The Shogun is more efficient because it's absorbing less. But of course, you're also taking more damage.

3. Bear (2950 Durability, 24 dmg) v Drone: 1.922 PEC decay for 24 damage absorbed.
4. EMINE (2700 Durability, 24 dmg) v Drone: 1.927 PEC decay for 24 damage absorbed.

Now we can start to see what I'm talking about. Bear absorbs 24 damage and that costs you 1.922 PEC. EMINE (UL) absorbs 24 damage but it costs you a bit more, 1.927 PEC due to the lower durability. Note how small the difference is. Settler+6A also absorbs 24 damage. Since it is the lowest durability set, you might expect it to be the worst decay. However, even splitting the damage into 23 on one piece and 1 on the other piece is enough to offset the difference in durability. So it comes out best, with 1.900 PEC.

In this situation, the best (UL) combination I can find is:

5. Knight (1900 Durability, 12 dmg) + 3B (1300 Durability, 11 dmg) v Drone: 1.555 PEC decay for 23 damage absorbed (0.068 PEC per damage).

Here you're splitting the damage half on to the plates and half to the armour. We only have 23 protection rather than 24 so we've lost 4% of our protection but we're paying 15% less for each damage point absorbed.

 

[CozMoDan]

Sorry to bump this post, but just came across it and wanted to add something. Apologies if someone else has already said the same thing.

Using the plateholder effect like that is valid (although not in the example you give, since Shogun has higher durability than the plates), and can be an improvement over using unplated armour in some situations. It is never optimal though (except possibly in the case of very high durability L plates with low MU). That is because the more damage an armour piece or plate absorbs the more decay you get (ie. 20 dmg absorbed decays more than two 10dmg absorbed). For UL items this is more significant than any durability effects.

So you're better off spreading the damage over a smaller armour and smaller plate if you can find something suitable.

Example with Drones
1. Settler (600 Durability, 1 dmg)+6A (1400 dura, 23 dmg) v Drone: 1.900 PEC decay for 24 damage absorbed (0.079 pec per dmg)

2. Shogun (1700 durability, 15 dmg) v Drone: 1.074 PEC decay for 15 damage absorbed (0.072 pec per dmg)

So Settler+6A compared to Shogun Unplated is a bit hard to compare. The Shogun is more efficient because it's absorbing less. But of course, you're also taking more damage.

3. Bear (2950 Durability, 24 dmg) v Drone: 1.922 PEC decay for 24 damage absorbed.
4. EMINE (2700 Durability, 24 dmg) v Drone: 1.927 PEC decay for 24 damage absorbed.

Now we can start to see what I'm talking about. Bear absorbs 24 damage and that costs you 1.922 PEC. EMINE (UL) absorbs 24 damage but it costs you a bit more, 1.927 PEC due to the lower durability. Note how small the difference is. Settler+6A also absorbs 24 damage. Since it is the lowest durability set, you might expect it to be the worst decay. However, even splitting the damage into 23 on one piece and 1 on the other piece is enough to offset the difference in durability. So it comes out best, with 1.900 PEC.

In this situation, the best (UL) combination I can find is:

5. Knight (1900 Durability, 12 dmg) + 3B (1300 Durability, 11 dmg) v Drone: 1.555 PEC decay for 23 damage absorbed (0.068 PEC per damage).

Here you're splitting the damage half on to the plates and half to the armour. We only have 23 protection rather than 24 so we've lost 4% of our protection but we're paying 15% less for each damage point absorbed.

That is very interesting. I was not aware that durability had anything to do with cost of protection. I don't understand why one piece of armor would absorb the same dmg but cost more because of durability. If you threw in supremacy(L) armor with durability of 15200 how does that effect cost. I thought the cost was according to amount of dmg absorbed by the amount of protection. This really hard to understand for me.

 

[MIND]

eco if factfiction

 

[Jimmy B]

That is very interesting. I was not aware that durability had anything to do with cost of protection. I don't understand why one piece of armor would absorb the same dmg but cost more because of durability. If you threw in supremacy(L) armor with durability of 15200 how does that effect cost. I thought the cost was according to amount of dmg absorbed by the amount of protection. This really hard to understand for me.

The only thing durability does is affect the cost of protection. However, for UL armours (or more specifically, armours below 10k durability) it only has a pretty small effect, equivalent to a reduction of costs of about 1% per 1000 durability points. Generally there are much more important things to consider (like spreading damage across plates and armours as discussed above, and avoiding under/overprotection) which have bigger impacts than durability.

The situation is very different for L armours though. The decay formula changes at 10000 durability, and durability starts to have a much bigger effect (which increases with the amount of dmg absorbed too). Mid-level L armour generally decays about 15% less than it's L counterpart. High level L armours can decay 25% less than their counterparts, sometimes more. And for each extra 1000 durability you add, you'll reduce costs by a further 3% or so - durability enhancers are well worth thinking about for L armours.

Of course, with L armours you have to factor in the markup you pay too, but at today's prices it's often better to go L if you don't mind the hassle of breakages.

The 'How Armor Works' link in my sig has more info.

 

[sostoned]

deleted: forgot how bitchie this forum is, good luck all

 

[Aio]

Project Entropia: Wild theories and horrible maths!

 

[Peezle]

maybe..

There is plenty of proof that it's true that loot is related to cost to kill..

No proof is better than years playing. Try to game Eu if you want, but this not a game as they say

If you invest ( time or money ) you get a payout. Yes, you will lose of course over time. Loot theories make me laugh. It's like a guy at a bar wondering if he should talk to a chick, when everyone else is just having a go.

Bee, you cannot talk to these people: they are special

 

[Ardorj]

Greetings all,

I am thinking about doing a rather large test. I am an old timer that is skilling very slowly. Right now I am only at level 38 Swordsman and that is my main proffession. I started before the Axe 1x0 nerf, Opalo and (L) items. I have a decent collection of oldstyle mêleé weapons, for example every Castorian Combat EnBlade expect the new 'Defender'. I am actually using these weapons too despite all the warning bells in my head about being uneco.
Those warning bells has gotten me to the point that I recently bought a MAKO Blizzard (L), believe it's #1.

I have seen a chart here about a test with Opalo + A101 versus Opalo + Eamp15 (or whatever it's called). Conclusion is being far less eco gives you higher loot, but not enough to offset the difference. Now I want to do a test like this with part of my mêleé collection and newstyle TT-mêleé.
The goal of my test will be:
a) What is the difference in outcome in percentage for different mêleé weapons on the same creature at the same location?
b) What is the correlation between the economy of a mêleé weapon and the resulting loot percentage?

Some problems I am thinking of before starting are:
a) Which weapons to choose? Should I go for the same weapon types (ie. all shortblades), same damage-range or same dmg/sec-range? Or perhaps a mix of these is better? And what about weapons with near same economy with one being oldstyle and the other the new SIB-style?
b) What creature to hunt? I will only hunt one type at one specific location for this test. Small enough in damage that I can heal myself inbetween with a TT-fap. I am on Arkadia and will not go to another planet. Other thing is that I prefer a missionmob.
c) How to calculate my effective eco with unmaxed weapons?
d) How many different weapons to use in this test?
e) How to record all the data? Thinking about determining the TT-return after every hunt, take track of what I hunt as well like Dtler does in his log. Note the defensive skills. Perhaps a standard deviation per weapon and overal too.
f) I want to hunt a missionmob, I don't expect that will alter the results in a significant way.
g) I want to upgrade my unlimited weapons when I can, also don't expect that will alter the results (won't be using enhancers).

And because I sometimes don't play for weeks on end my progress is very slow. This test will probably be spread out over many months and perhaps even years if I don't lose my sanity first.

[EDIT]
I just realise that I am at 6.2/6.3 hit/crithit on all swords that I checked. That doesn't stroke with my believe that these are all maxed at level 100. How is this determined and when are these swords maxed?
[EDIT]

Ardorj

 

[skunkjunk]

Greetings all,

I am thinking about doing a rather large test. I am an old timer that is skilling very slowly. Right now I am only at level 38 Swordsman and that is my main proffession. I started before the Axe 1x0 nerf, Opalo and (L) items. I have a decent collection of oldstyle mêleé weapons, for example every Castorian Combat EnBlade expect the new 'Defender'. I am actually using these weapons too despite all the warning bells in my head about being uneco.
Those warning bells has gotten me to the point that I recently bought a MAKO Blizzard (L), believe it's #1.

I have seen a chart here about a test with Opalo + A101 versus Opalo + Eamp15 (or whatever it's called). Conclusion is being far less eco gives you higher loot, but not enough to offset the difference. Now I want to do a test like this with part of my mêleé collection and newstyle TT-mêleé.
The goal of my test will be:
a) What is the difference in outcome in percentage for different mêleé weapons on the same creature at the same location?
b) What is the correlation between the economy of a mêleé weapon and the resulting loot percentage?

Some problems I am thinking of before starting are:
a) Which weapons to choose? Should I go for the same weapon types (ie. all shortblades), same damage-range or same dmg/sec-range? Or perhaps a mix of these is better? And what about weapons with near same economy with one being oldstyle and the other the new SIB-style?
b) What creature to hunt? I will only hunt one type at one specific location for this test. Small enough in damage that I can heal myself inbetween with a TT-fap. I am on Arkadia and will not go to another planet. Other thing is that I prefer a missionmob.
c) How to calculate my effective eco with unmaxed weapons?
d) How many different weapons to use in this test?
e) How to record all the data? Thinking about determining the TT-return after every hunt, take track of what I hunt as well like Dtler does in his log. Note the defensive skills. Perhaps a standard deviation per weapon and overal too.
f) I want to hunt a missionmob, I don't expect that will alter the results in a significant way.
g) I want to upgrade my unlimited weapons when I can, also don't expect that will alter the results (won't be using enhancers).

And because I sometimes don't play for weeks on end my progress is very slow. This test will probably be spread out over many months and perhaps even years if I don't lose my sanity first.

[EDIT]
I just realise that I am at 6.2/6.3 hit/crithit on all swords that I checked. That doesn't stroke with my believe that these are all maxed at level 100. How is this determined and when are these swords maxed?
[EDIT]

Ardorj

borrow 2 philo's of me (44 dam , 56/min. 2.915 dpp sib starts at lvl 18 and is maxed around 25 ish)
if you now lvl 38 and used only old style unlimited mellee using them wil be a real eye opener

gonna asume a dutch old timer not gonna rip me of for 10 euro so you could loan them a week without collateral

 

[Artrat]

[EDIT]
I just realise that I am at 6.2/6.3 hit/crithit on all swords that I checked. That doesn't stroke with my believe that these are all maxed at level 100. How is this determined and when are these swords maxed?
[EDIT]

Ardorj

MA changed the way hit ability works a few months ago. Under the old system you would have had 3.8 HA. Your efficiency with the non-sib blades is now improved but still far less than on a maxed blade. The old school blades still max at 100.

To work out your actual Eco on a non-maxed blade use entropedia's "weapon compare" tool and check the "input HA/damage interval" box.

 

[Jennson]

[EDIT]
I just realise that I am at 6.2/6.3 hit/crithit on all swords that I checked. That doesn't stroke with my believe that these are all maxed at level 100. How is this determined and when are these swords maxed?
[EDIT]

Ardorj

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-New-HA-non-SIB-weapons&p=3110499#post3110499

BR

 

[ForrestPark]

I believe all of the following hunting-related statements are true. If any non-depositor, who regularly hunts, disagrees with any of the statements below I'd be very interested indeed...

1. The 90% return thing is just something to tell a first-week newbie to give them a vague idea about how the game works. A static multiplier of 0.9 is not coded anywhere.

2. Eco matters. You have to kill mobs in the cheapest way possible to maximize your long term returns. Your choice of weapon (in relation to the mob you're hunting) is the biggest factor to consider.

3. Overkill, armor decay and healing costs all need to be kept to a minimum to maximize your long term returns. So generally you're better off hunting mobs that don't heavily batter you. Using a finisher on smaller mobs is a good idea.

4. The website http://eldslott.org/entropia/ will help you define your cost to kill a specific mob. If you plan to camp a mob you need to do a very simple regen test on that mob yourself first to ensure the results from this website are accurate.

5. Whether a mob regenerates a little or a lot can significantly influence your returns. It can sometimes make a low DPS weapon with high DPP less eco than a high DPS weapon with a lower DPP. You can investigate this using the above website: fiddle with the number in the regen field whilst studying a weapon such as the Archon Sword in the results. You will need to sort by the Cost field.

6. Loot is determined post-kill, and is dependent on how much damage you inflicted. However if you do 2N damage you will (over the long term) get significantly less than twice the loot than when doing N damage. (This was coded to make ubers and teams not get vastly better returns than the average player when hunting regen mobs, whilst still guaranteeing them a better return).

7. Hunt mobs that give you a good MU in loot, and avoid mobs that don't. Obviously you also still need to work on eking out the best TT return too.

8. You cannot hunt economically without some kind of spreadsheet or other method of record keeping.

9. Always tap up non-depositors (who hunt!) for eco-hunting advice wherever possible.

To me, those nine points are impossible to disagree with. It's the more advanced stuff that fascinates me.

I am considering creating some kind of group where we work out the absolute best eco hunting setup for certain mobs, given a non-uber equipment budget (i.e. gun, armor and fap) of about 2000 PED. PM me if you're interested (or if there is already some group I can join).

Have fun!

Forrest

 

[Jennson]

1. The 90% return thing is just something to tell a first-week newbie to give them a vague idea about how the game works. A static multiplier of 0.9 is not coded anywhere.

I want to point it out as many think i am a follower of the 90% theory because i mention it in the guide i wrote once. There is no obligation for the game to pay out 90%, but it is a rough ballpark figure what to expect return wise based on statistical returns on a huge number of kills.

 

[Spawn]

"Efficiency Matters - One issue that we have noticed being discussed quite frequently on community forums such as PlanetCalypsoForm.com is the concept of efficiency (sometimes referred to as economy), especially with regard to hunting tools such as ranged and melee weapons. A growing number of participants seem to have adopted an approach based on the theory that “economy does not matter”, a theory apparently based on (faulty) field tests or other experiments. We would like to state here very clearly that avatar skills and efficiency on the tools used do indeed matter a great deal, and have a very significant effect on overall returns in all Entropia Universe professions. Any playtest experiments, theorycrafting or other analysis you may be presented with which indicate or suggest that efficiency does not matter are thus flawed either in their conception, data collection, data analysis or conclusions."

From developer notes 2.


On my view, to be able to get more tickets (loot) with the same ped budget is always good!!!

and here's another quote from development:

Originally Posted by Kim|Calypso

You don't have to worry, we won't do any changes to the stats of your old items.

 

[sitram]

....

I am considering creating some kind of group where we work out the absolute best eco hunting setup for certain mobs, given a non-uber equipment budget (i.e. gun, armor and fap) of about 2000 PED. PM me if you're interested (or if there is already some group I can join).

Have fun!

Forrest

Good post as always Forrest!

I would be interested in joining such a group and discussing about eco and hunting setup.

 

[Joe13]

and here's another quote from development:

Originally Posted by Kim|Calypso

Lol let fuck them over again and again

 

[Jimmy B]

No proof is better than years playing.

Gotta argue with the philosophy behind this statement. The knowledge gained from years of play (assuming you want to learn) is undoubtably invaluable. But there is stuff that has been studied and proven beyond doubt. I'm not sure that applies to any loot-theory stuff; the 'proofs' are often more 'plausibility-arguments'. But there is stuff that has been conclusively proven (the armour decay stuff is a good example). Intuition gained from years of playing can't touch stuff that's been conclusively proven.

 

[K-Max]

I have to say yes, eco hunting is the key, I have been tracking returns for a long time now and I am under firm belief(Of Course this is just my theory based on my own data), that loot is directly related to mobs hit points or difficulty to kill. I with all my testing have not see any proof over extended data sets lead to the more ped spent = more chance for more ped returned. Getting big hits (globals) are totally independent and will happen if you spend big or play eco, they happen when they happen.

But I can kind of predict my returns based on mob hitpoints or diffiulty to kill pretty closely compared to the decay I recieve, this is on average with no globals, and it does come out pretty close every hunt. When I get a global that is when I get that swing out of the average return. BTW it seems in last couple months that average is set around 75-77% tt return hunting eco. over extended amounts of time. Short data sets have to big of a change in the data, some hunts up some down etc. but if you take all the data and average it it comes out in the end with this amount.

So my theory is hunt eco whenever you can, it will make a difference in the long run.

 

[Aio]

I have to say yes, eco hunting is the key, I have been tracking returns for a long time now and I am under firm belief(Of Course this is just my theory based on my own data), that loot is directly related to mobs hit points or difficulty to kill. I with all my testing have not see any proof over extended data sets lead to the more ped spent = more chance for more ped returned. Getting big hits (globals) are totally independent and will happen if you spend big or play eco, they happen when they happen.

But I can kind of predict my returns based on mob hitpoints or diffiulty to kill pretty closely compared to the decay I recieve, this is on average with no globals, and it does come out pretty close every hunt. When I get a global that is when I get that swing out of the average return. BTW it seems in last couple months that average is set around 75-77% tt return hunting eco. over extended amounts of time. Short data sets have to big of a change in the data, some hunts up some down etc. but if you take all the data and average it it comes out in the end with this amount.

So my theory is hunt eco whenever you can, it will make a difference in the long run.

And your theory is completely correct Data without bias is a beautiful thing...

 

[valentin]

Only thing eco gives you is that you have to pay less money to repaer your items and that you can kill more mobs fore same money.

 

[the-unknown]

Only thing eco gives you is that you have to pay less money to repaer your items and that you can kill more mobs fore same money.

So if you can kill more mobs for same amount of money, doesn't it stand to reason that instead of killing only 100 mobs in a run, you can kill 103 (or more) mobs for the same cost, and get chance of loot from 3 more mobs?

 

[Jimmy B]

So if you can kill more mobs for same amount of money, doesn't it stand to reason that instead of killing only 100 mobs in a run, you can kill 103 (or more) mobs for the same cost, and get chance of loot from 3 more mobs?

It's a reasonable assumption to make, yes. But it's not a given. The alternative possibility that is being discussed is that the amount you spend killing a mob affects the loot it returns. I'm not up to date with the latest research, but when I was there was some strong evidence that that is actually the case. To take an extreme example, if you pump 10 PED of ammo into a high regen mob you'd have got less loot than someone who used a slower gun and pumped 20 PED of ammo into it. The big question then is whether the 20 PED guy gets double what the 10 PED guy would have got, or less than double. If the latter, then eco still matters, just by not quite as much as you'd expect.

 

[CozMoDan]

I believe all of the following hunting-related statements are true. If any non-depositor, who regularly hunts, disagrees with any of the statements below I'd be very interested indeed...

1. The 90% return thing is just something to tell a first-week newbie to give them a vague idea about how the game works. A static multiplier of 0.9 is not coded anywhere.

2. Eco matters. You have to kill mobs in the cheapest way possible to maximize your long term returns. Your choice of weapon (in relation to the mob you're hunting) is the biggest factor to consider.

3. Overkill, armor decay and healing costs all need to be kept to a minimum to maximize your long term returns. So generally you're better off hunting mobs that don't heavily batter you. Using a finisher on smaller mobs is a good idea.

4. The website http://eldslott.org/entropia/ will help you define your cost to kill a specific mob. If you plan to camp a mob you need to do a very simple regen test on that mob yourself first to ensure the results from this website are accurate.

5. Whether a mob regenerates a little or a lot can significantly influence your returns. It can sometimes make a low DPS weapon with high DPP less eco than a high DPS weapon with a lower DPP. You can investigate this using the above website: fiddle with the number in the regen field whilst studying a weapon such as the Archon Sword in the results. You will need to sort by the Cost field.

6. Loot is determined post-kill, and is dependent on how much damage you inflicted. However if you do 2N damage you will (over the long term) get significantly less than twice the loot than when doing N damage. (This was coded to make ubers and teams not get vastly better returns than the average player when hunting regen mobs, whilst still guaranteeing them a better return).

7. Hunt mobs that give you a good MU in loot, and avoid mobs that don't. Obviously you also still need to work on eking out the best TT return too.

8. You cannot hunt economically without some kind of spreadsheet or other method of record keeping.

9. Always tap up non-depositors (who hunt!) for eco-hunting advice wherever possible.

To me, those nine points are impossible to disagree with. It's the more advanced stuff that fascinates me.

I am considering creating some kind of group where we work out the absolute best eco hunting setup for certain mobs, given a non-uber equipment budget (i.e. gun, armor and fap) of about 2000 PED. PM me if you're interested (or if there is already some group I can join).

Have fun!

Forrest

Clicked on the link about cost of hunting. Very hard to use for me, I think instructions are needed for us dumb folks. Just a for instance I could not find the weapon ID which I am sure is needed.