Question: Eco, eco, eco fact or fiction?

[-Archangel-]

I have never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that spending more to kill a mob (being uneco) will give any higher loot. So if you're going to call it fact, please provide some reliable source.



NOTE how the above (being uneco) is not the same as letting the mob regen and thus spending more because you have to remove more HP from the mob. Such experiments have been made, and they have nothing to do with DMG/PEC, but rather deal with the importance of DMG/SEC.

MA changed the loot system several times.

So currently if it is still true that "cost to kill" has "direct influence" it is hard to prove like it was in the past

It was very simple to see that if you used a 21 damage amp on a 4 damage weapon loot would be significatively diferent (it isn't anymore)

still,
in my view that doesn't mean that what was important was the cost to kill.

 

[JohnCapital]

there are already a few issues that could cause you not to be ASS "eco"

Please tell. I'm willing to learn. I didn't place that info out to brag, but in hopes some might have some good tips for me.

MA changed the loot system several times.

Thing is, I don't think they have.

They have occasionally adjusted certain variables in the loot drop calculations, (like when they had to tweak it so the high TT HL UL guns dropped) but the general loot system per say is I think basically the exact same as day one.

But an overall "completely change the loot system to an entirely new system" I don't think really ever happened.

Edit: Other than changing of game engines, of course.

But as usual I may very well be wrong.

 

[Karmic]

I wish.

My long term (2+ years) TT return on hunting is only 88.56%
Mining is 85.19%

you suck tho

 

[JohnCapital]

you suck tho

But this is not news.

 

[Profit]

I have never seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that spending more to kill a mob (being uneco) will give any higher loot. So if you're going to call it fact, please provide some reliable source.

I'm being suckered into baring the burden of evidence... again.
Note that I did not make the initial assertion, yet am asked to provide evidence... ironic.
I will search.

[edit]
On second thought, think what you like. lol... the tests are out there and have been linked over and over in other threads. I'm pretty sure it was done by JimmyB? This is becoming ground hog day, regardless.
Also, letting a mob regen IS being uneco.
[/edit]

 

[Profit]

I'm still waiting for someone to cycle lets say 25-50k ped with swine deluxe on a regular size mob...

By all the talks in threads like this, there is almost 0 risk of loosing huge amounts of peds. So why hasn't anyone done this? I think the answer is quite clear...

This is an example of someone misconstruing the discussion.

 

[Angel]

None of the things said here make any sense except ECO-hunting will yield more kills than non-ECO for every PED spent. Assuming its the same mob and... the mob has very little REGEN other wise DPS will play a part.

More kills doesn't necessary mean more globals. Certain mobs at certain times at certain place have certain average loot and have certain different global frequency with certain multipliers so certain people should just stop trying make sense of it. Just keep it simple and hunt.

Easy way to explain is... each mob has a range of loot ei. Steel Birds Elite

Minimun NORMAL loot is around 2.00PED Maximum NORMAL is around 15.00PED (this is done through observation of over 262464263634674374 kills)

You could probably formulate it something like this.
HP/2100 = MIN loot
HP/280 = MAX loot
These numbers are estimatedly close but not exact. Maybe its 2000 and 250 who knows.
REGEN mobs of course will add more effective HP base on % amount depending how fast you kill it but is capped to maybe 20%. I don't exactly know the exact % but I will use that instead.

Knowing the MAX and MIN loot will give us the AVERAGE loot, which in this case around 8.50PED.

NORMAL meaning no MULTIPLIER has occurred. In other words... fuck it you know what I mean.

My average with AIMK2 is DMG/PEC = 3.00/PEC (enhancer breaking/evaded attacks/decay etc. included except fap and armor)
Steel Bird Elite has 4200HP with almost no REGEN.
4200/3 = 14.00PED average cost.
8.50/14.00 = 60.7% roughly NORMAL average return WITHOUT any MULTIPLIER.
If we compared to a weapon with 2.75 DMG/PEC it would be a whole new different story.
4200/2.75 = 15.27PED average cost
8.5/15.27 = 55.6% roughly NORMAL average return WITHOUT any MULTIPLIER.

NOTE: The 8.5 average doesn't always apply because you will notice that at certain times this tends to be at the higher part or at the lower end of the spectrum. It all depends on the MOOD of the system or CYCLE.

Meaning certain mobs at certain place at certain time can have this combination:
High/AVERAGE/LOW Normal average loot
High/AVERAGE/LOW Multiplier frequency
High/AVERAGE/LOW Multiplier amount

That being said, 90% return is bull crap everyone one should know that. It all depends on the decisions you made in the game at certain times at certain place that could have led you to get more multipliers specially big ones or none at all (items and MU not included).

Someone in this thread did mention that the system seems to balance players loot that 2 different avatar killing the same mob would yield different result for each is... most likely true. I also tend to have lower globals or less globals after a big HOF. It normally happens the next day up to a few days after but it could all be just coincidence that the lootious is going through a cycle. It happens too often to be ignored.

 

[Futurama]

Please tell. I'm willing to learn. I didn't place that info out to brag, but in hopes some might have some good tips for me.



Thing is, I don't think they have.

They have occasionally adjusted certain variables in the loot drop calculations, (like when they had to tweak it so the high TT HL UL guns dropped) but the general loot system per say is I think basically the exact same as day one.

But an overall "completely change the loot system to an entirely new system" I don't think really ever happened.

Edit: Other than changing of game engines, of course.

But as usual I may very well be wrong.

Therefor eco should still matter. You have been here long enough you have seen imk2 era, opalo era and first L weapons. Do you remember the first adapted anabolics sold for insabe markup? Even at they it was highly profitable.


I think "overall eco" matters. Back in the days those gaps were huge between someone with zero skills shooting with mk2 or ep40 and imk2 users. Same goes for L weapons - they were so much better than what everyone was using... when h400 was introduced you could break even at 200%. The change is that today we use maxed weapons all the time (well mostly) amd the gap is not really there anymore

 

[CozMoDan]

I wish.

My long term (2+ years) TT return on hunting is only 88.56%
Mining is 85.19%

Just couple of questions.

How long have you been playing?
What are your highest lvl in laser pistol and dmg?
If you are using only P5 what is the largest mob you hunt?
What is your largest HOF/ATH ?
The reason I am aksing as I see you have been around here since 2005.
TIA
Peace

 

[Sibolovin]

Non Sib effect on eco

I am doing a few runs on argos to see what returns are like. I have been using mainly p5a (kross 400 occasionally) and A105 amp. Have switched to a Karma Killer and a105. So far seems to be about a .10 ped difference per kill (only 2 runs done of full amp so far) About 1.2 ped per argo from memory up from 1.1 ped with p5a.

Will post returns when done a few runs, so far losses in same range as p5a combo. Handgun is around mid 40 so far from maxed.

 

[Artrat]

I am doing a few runs on argos to see what returns are like. I have been using mainly p5a (kross 400 occasionally) and A105 amp. Have switched to a Karma Killer and a105. So far seems to be about a .10 ped difference per kill (only 2 runs done of full amp so far) About 1.2 ped per argo from memory up from 1.1 ped with p5a.

Will post returns when done a few runs, so far losses in same range as p5a combo. Handgun is around mid 40 so far from maxed.

Do at least 10k ped ammo through each and then your numbers might be indicitive of something. I did 30-40k through a DOA and can definitively say that eco matters, at least to a point. I stilll don't think the difference between 3.0 and 2.8 is that noticeable, but at 2.2 or 2.3 it's very clear.

Anyone who chooses to believe otherwise is welcome to, I look forward to extracting your peds from the lootpool.

 

[Konve]

If DMG/PEC did not matter, the 1x0 axe would never have been nerfed. End of discussion. I win.
(Yeah I know; they might have changed the system since. Just saying.)

I wish.

My long term (2+ years) TT return on hunting is only 88.56%
Mining is 85.19%

Please learn to not ASSume things. Try asking questions as Doer has before reaching conclusions.



Sure. I'll give you my 2012 hunting numbers, as they were more agreeable than 2011.
2012 was almost exclusively using P5a +A104. (+ occasional finishers)
Number below are all TT, no MU factored into these numbers. Those are a different part of my spreadsheets.
However, for the record, guns were "home crafted" by my wife, Winterhart, using materials bought in bulk under market price.

Total Spent = 54,864.22
Loot = 49,199.10
Weapon = 4,398.45
Ammo = 39,723.42
Amp = 9,210.16
Scope/Sight = 17.88
Enhancers = 0.40
Armor = 1,208.95
Fap = 250.74
Refiner = 20.01
Transport = 34.21 (tp chips/implant/ME + oil for vehicles)

Total TT return = 89.67%
Weapon only = 53,332.03 (92.25%)
Defense (armor+fap) = 1,459.69 (2.96%)

Edit: just cause I can
Total MU bought = 1,301.41
Total MU from selling things (after auction fees) = 5,310.63
(Note, these last two numbers are MU only, TT is taken out.)

If you can find what big mistake(s) I made, I'd appreciate it.
Oh, and yes, I do account for looted ammo and it is factored into total loot. Simple method: Take exactly enough to use P5a+2x A104. When both amps are broke, all other ammo is looted. (When circumstances don't allow that method, I take before/after TT of weapons/amps and do the math to determine realistic ammo usage.)

Please tell. I'm willing to learn. I didn't place that info out to brag, but in hopes some might have some good tips for me.

Given that I don't think decay has any direct link to the loot you get, I think your armor and FAP decay is your problem. Because a normal DMG/PEC calculation only considers your weapon.

As I said previously I believe HP removed is linked to loot, and not dmg done (or dmg protected or HP healed).

ie stop tanking mobs, they are killing your stats.


Edit: If I may ask, did you calculate your ammo spent from your weapon/amp decay, or did you just add how much you bought minus how much TT you had left after hunting? Because the latter will lie and lower your average TT return.
Edit2: Noticed your last comment.

 

[Ace Flyster]

If DMG/PEC did not matter, the 1x0 axe would never have been nerfed. End of discussion. I win.
(Yeah I know; they might have changed the system since. Just saying.)







Given that I don't think decay has any direct link to the loot you get, I think your armor and FAP decay is your problem. Because a normal DMG/PEC calculation only considers your weapon.

As I said previously I believe HP removed is linked to loot, and not dmg done (or dmg protected or HP healed).

ie stop tanking mobs, they are killing your stats.


Edit: If I may ask, did you calculate your ammo spent from your weapon/amp decay, or did you just add how much you bought minus how much TT you had left after hunting? Because the latter will lie and lower your average TT return.

To be fair under 3% defence cost is pretty damn low!

Rgds

Ace

 

[Artrat]

To be fair under 3% defence cost is pretty damn low!

Rgds

Ace

I agree, certainly lower than mine on average.

My long-term average is well under 90% at the moment, but there are very good reasons for that (I'll give a hint: It has something to do with eco ).

 

[Doer]

Given that I don't think decay has any direct link to the loot you get, I think your armor and FAP decay is your problem. Because a normal DMG/PEC calculation only considers your weapon.

As I said previously I believe HP removed is linked to loot, and not dmg done (or dmg protected or HP healed).

ie stop tanking mobs, they are killing your stats.

Yeah that's a relatively low defensive cost in percentage but it's still making the difference between an overall tt return in the low 90%s and what you have. For such a low dps weapon as the p5a i'd say you're hunting mobs that are too big (at least looking at this from a purely eco perspective) or not optimizing your defensive options. I had 1876 PEDs FAP and armor costs, for 1.7% of the total cost, and that was including some 3.5k peds using melee weapons and rather decay-intensive rippersnapper and longtooth iron challenge chains.

Without specific information on damage done for this much offensive cost it's hard to say what your true dpp is, and thus hard to make a direct comparison. Nominally the p5a (L) and A104 at tt has about the same eco as my setup for this year. If it turns out you missed (as in shot the ground or dead mob) a lot then your actual dpp could be much lower.

It could also be you haven't hit any higher loots during this period and are below the mean return for your eco, and in the long run your return will trend higher.

 

[JohnCapital]

Therefor eco should still matter. You have been here long enough you have seen imk2 era, opalo era and first L weapons. Do you remember the first adapted anabolics sold for insabe markup? Even at they it was highly profitable.

If DMG/PEC did not matter, the 1x0 axe would never have been nerfed. End of discussion. I win.

There are a few huge differences between the "old days" vs these days, and Futurama hinted at some. The huge eco difference between players based on skills was a big one. As he said the intro of (L) weapons turned everyone max, and the only real difference becomes turnover and what the loot consists of, MU-wise.

Another factor was that there were fewer players back then. Pham would hunt long hours in very secluded areas. He worked hard to make sure he was the only one in the area hunting. He understood (at least this is my interpretation, based on my poor understanding of loot) that while the loot system can only pay back based on what's put in (I.E. 1k in loot requires over 1k of decay spent) it is set to occasionally "refund" any excess TT loot that isn't looted yet. The system doesn't care to who, since two players spending 2k in an area was supposed to get, say 96% TT return. If one got 89% and the other got 103%, then that's fine according to the system. So if you're the only one hunting an area and filling the local pool, then when it's "balancing time", you basically get most your TT back, plus maybe what excess others left.

Just couple of questions.

How long have you been playing?
What are your highest lvl in laser pistol and dmg?
If you are using only P5 what is the largest mob you hunt?
What is your largest HOF/ATH ?
The reason I am aksing as I see you have been around here since 2005.
TIA
Peace

Started June 2006, I play pretty much every day. (By play I mean I hunt, mine, etc., not just stand around socializing.) Currently level 60 laser pistol, all other laser/blp profs are in the 50s. level 35ish evade. My largest loot was 10k molisk back in '08. If you're asking about highest in 2012, it was a 1,364 Mayhem Kerby S3.

As for the mobs I hunted, it was mostly young/small molisk, argo, rippers, miner bots, drones, Android Video Vixen and Mayhem Kerbies. (The mayhem I used higher dps weapons like ep-53, zero-four, etc.)

I hope that answers your questions.

Given that I don't think decay has any direct link to the loot you get, I think your armor and FAP decay is your problem.
ie stop tanking mobs, they are killing your stats.

To be fair under 3% defence cost is pretty damn low!

I agree, certainly lower than mine on average.

Mayhem was when I had defense costs of 6-7%. Most of the time my defense costs were in the 1-2% range, not counting rippers, etc.

I do try hard to keep my defense costs down. (had a large collection of armors/plates so I could customize fr the mob I hunted) I tend to tag from max distance and walk backwards. (except when I'm consciously trying to skill evade/dodge, which isn't often) However, I'm always willing to get better tips.

My whole point being that while dmg/pec does matter, it's not the be all end all. In this Universe you can do everything right (at least I'm trying to do things right) and still lose.

 

[CozMoDan]

John thanks for the reply about your skills etc. I started in late 2007 not exactly sure the date and I, like you, play pretty much every day ( I did quit for about a year because of really poor loot returns and played starcraft), mostly hunting and a little mine and craft when I get the urge. I am a bit higher than you but really about the same. You say you want some advice and I think I can give you some, even though there are ones that will say its BS but anyway I offer for your consideration:

For me, I have found that my loot has gotten better over the years as I try to kill bigger and bigger mobs and higher DPS weapons. I am up to EWE Fury-54 now and I am up to Hogglos young to olds is about the highest I can go, I also like atroxes, I guess just for old time sake. Anyway what I am trying to say is I think when one kills the highest mob one can kill and uses the highest DPS weapons you get better loot and better skills. Its kind of like in real life you only improve when you push yourself to the highest limil.

Just my thoughts for you.

Peace.

 

[nlnforever]

there is evidence to support cost of kill is nothing

hence why eco comes in.

Otherwise why even buy eco guns... MA themselves have said eco is key

We can prove that you are wrong EASILY

This is a simple test that all of you should do:

- Go to TT, buy the cheap Laser Pistol.
- Put the E-15 amp on that gun.

You get a gun with the worst damage/pec ever. Then ask yourself and your friends to predict the loot which you will get by using that gun. Go out and shoot some molisk young or even daikiba, you will be SURPRISED.

Do the test by yourself first before you try to say: this test is meaningless, it does not work, etc.

 

[ermik]

We can prove that you are wrong EASILY

This is a simple test that all of you should do:

- Go to TT, buy the cheap Laser Pistol.
- Put the E-15 amp on that gun.

You get a gun with the worst damage/pec ever. Then ask yourself and your friends to predict the loot which you will get by using that gun. Go out and shoot some molisk young or even daikiba, you will be SURPRISED.

Do the test by yourself first before you try to say: this test is meaningless, it does not work, etc.

System tries to compensate for tt spent by generating multipliers for our avatars.

Take this test to the same level as i did, and shoot up a few e15 amps in the air, then go back to grind your favorite mob for a few days, same result.

Dmg/pec means you get to loot more mobs with same peds spent, wich means you should be able to find a more steady and predictable return when using gear with high eco.

Beeing eco gives you an advantage over the competition, the more mobs you loot the more stable the return.

I think you get back what you spend - missed shots ( yellow line MISS ) over time, beeing eco is the primary tool to make that time as short and stable as possible.

Beeing maxxed on a weapon is so importand it cant bbe stressed enough, MA even said so themselves.

 

[-Archangel-]

We can prove that you are wrong EASILY

This is a simple test that all of you should do:

- Go to TT, buy the cheap Laser Pistol.
- Put the E-15 amp on that gun.

You get a gun with the worst damage/pec ever. Then ask yourself and your friends to predict the loot which you will get by using that gun. Go out and shoot some molisk young or even daikiba, you will be SURPRISED.

Do the test by yourself first before you try to say: this test is meaningless, it does not work, etc.

I advise you not to do this test.
I may agree that it may show a significative increase in average loot per mob

But it was changed early this year.
Before that it would be brainless simple to notice the difference.

 

[CozMoDan]

System tries to compensate for tt spent by generating multipliers for our avatars.

Take this test to the same level as i did, and shoot up a few e15 amps in the air, then go back to grind your favorite mob for a few days, same result.

Dmg/pec means you get to loot more mobs with same peds spent, wich means you should be able to find a more steady and predictable return when using gear with high eco.

Beeing eco gives you an advantage over the competition, the more mobs you loot the more stable the return.

I think you get back what you spend - missed shots ( yellow line MISS ) over time, beeing eco is the primary tool to make that time as short and stable as possible.

Beeing maxxed on a weapon is so importand it cant bbe stressed enough, MA even said so themselves.

I agree with all but the part where you get back what you spend unless you are excluding decay. I think I read somewhere that MA stated that their profit is from decay only. I am not sure I completely believe them but I will give them the benefit of doubt.

 

[SpikeBlack]

It might have been once but since they don't cover our tt worth beyond six months of deposits they probably include any before that as well now.

 

[Profit]

The MMO Gamer: How does MindArk profit from this type of virtual economy?

Marco Behrmann: The main drain in Entropia Universe is the decay of items when used. Tools, weapons, armor, etc all lose a small fraction of its MindArk-guaranteed re-purchase value every time it is used.

The MMO Gamer: Does MindArk take a transaction fee when players trade with each other?

Marco Behrmann: No. We also don’t take any transaction fees converting real-virtual currency.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?121003-How-MindArk-profits-solved

Decay and (auction/shop) fees.

 

[Konve]

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?121003-How-MindArk-profits-solved

Decay and (auction/shop) fees.

I agree with all but the part where you get back what you spend unless you are excluding decay. I think I read somewhere that MA stated that their profit is from decay only. I am not sure I completely believe them but I will give them the benefit of doubt.

It might have been once but since they don't cover our tt worth beyond six months of deposits they probably include any before that as well now.

Mindark makes money from deposits directly. You deposit 1000 PED, they make 100 USD. You withdraw 100 PED, they lose 10 USD.

Mindark makes money indirectly from decay, because decay does not convert PED from one item into another. ie if you buy ammo at the TT, the value is still there. If you decay your sword and get no loot, you just lost value. Value which can no longer be withdrawn.

Read their financial reports for more info:
http://www.mindark.se/investor-relations/financial-reports/

I advise you not to do this test.
I may agree that it may show a significative increase in average loot per mob

But it was changed early this year.
Before that it would be brainless simple to notice the difference.

I agree 100 %. Do.Not.Waste.Your.Money.

Just look at this:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?215755-Konve-s-insane-mining

The system has yet to compensate me in any way.

Don't do it.

 

[Profit]

I agree 100 %. Do.Not.Waste.Your.Money.

Just look at this:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?215755-Konve-s-insane-mining

But your tests can not be compared to the results that were found from the hunting tests.
Dropping bombs 7m apart would be more akin to setting your gun to auto-shoot and just running from mob-to-mob spamming shots in the air randomly.
Of course those shots you let off in the sky - or bombs you dropped too close together - will not be compensated.
Many miners before you dropped numerous bombs in stupid scenarios to test compensation, and all had the same results. Myself included.

You can't compare the two (mining/hunting). It's literally impossible.

In my personal opinion, the observations that were made in said hunting tests are observations that we can only make in hunting, due to the transparency of actions in hunting that are lacking in the other two professions (eg: we can see the mob in hunting, we can't see "mob" in mining or crafting, we can measure dmg/hp in hunting, we can't in mining/crafting, etc...).


[edit]
As Fanan said in your thread;

Yep i understand the point of the op, still a bit crazy. Is like shooting in the air for 2h and then go to hunt longtooth with the hope of get the ammo fired trough the air back in the LT loot. lol

 

[FallenAngel]

You can't compare the two (mining/hunting). It's literally impossible.

In my personal opinion.

they are the same! or mining is simpler..
claims are just invisible mobs
you shoot at them with your finder, and 3/4's are no-looters.

 

[CozMoDan]

they are the same! or mining is simpler..
claims are just invisible mobs
you shoot at them with your finder, and 3/4's are no-looters.

I disagree completely now that mining has been changed. It seems that basically we all get a bunch of smalls claims and you hit many more claims. I had not mined for quite a while and got a lvl 2 finder amp and 200 ped in probes and off I went. I got maybe one claim over V and I think it was a 6 or 7. When I mined before with the same set up I would usually get one or 2 gbls but would get a lot of 8s and 9s but overall fewer claims. I would usually be + or - 20% with the ocassional real bad and good runs. I did get one 2000 HOF before. Now I just mine a little, like 6 double drops (kind of just for fun) while hunting. About the only thing I lose is decay over the long haul. I really don't like the idea of not having a chance to "Get Lucky" with my set up but I guess that is the way it is. BTW I seems to get the same amount of return amped or unamped so I don't buy amps any more. I suppose that if you get the professional grade amps you have a better chance but I don't want to take that chance because I am not a high lvl miner and those high lvl amps are expensive.

 

[whiteknut]

I disagree completely now that mining has been changed. It seems that basically we all get a bunch of smalls claims and you hit many more claims. I had not mined for quite a while and got a lvl 2 finder amp and 200 ped in probes and off I went. I got maybe one claim over V and I think it was a 6 or 7. When I mined before with the same set up I would usually get one or 2 gbls but would get a lot of 8s and 9s but overall fewer claims. I would usually be + or - 20% with the ocassional real bad and good runs. I did get one 2000 HOF before. Now I just mine a little, like 6 double drops (kind of just for fun) while hunting. About the only thing I lose is decay over the long haul. I really don't like the idea of not having a chance to "Get Lucky" with my set up but I guess that is the way it is. BTW I seems to get the same amount of return amped or unamped so I don't buy amps any more. I suppose that if you get the professional grade amps you have a better chance but I don't want to take that chance because I am not a high lvl miner and those high lvl amps are expensive.

You usually got one or two globals on one lvl 2 amp on calypso? Now you were lucky. I know it took me about 5-6 lvl 2 amps to get one (or oa101 in old days). So you are not whining about loot becoming more steady but that your personal loot has gone down?

If you want to mine for profit or close to break-even then you should be satisfied with the "new mining system"
If you want to mine for fun or to satisfy your gambling addiction, then buy few lvl 10 + amps and head to foma or hell and you will have some fun. (even lvl 5 amp will land you nice amount of globals and rare hofs on foma or hell).

 

[minim]

Mindark makes money from deposits directly. You deposit 1000 PED, they make 100 USD. You withdraw 100 PED, they lose 10 USD.

Mindark makes money indirectly from decay, because decay does not convert PED from one item into another. ie if you buy ammo at the TT, the value is still there. If you decay your sword and get no loot, you just lost value. Value which can no longer be withdrawn.

Read their financial reports for more info:
http://www.mindark.se/investor-relations/financial-reports/

.

This is so obvious yet so many choose to ignore it ^^

 

[Captain Jack]

I kind of agree with both of you. I do believe (in the long run) cost of kill is a bigger factor that all the others. If this was not the case why would the top players (Star, Striker and the other ubers) not just kill Atroxes ? I have seen them with several healers killing huge mobs.

I also think there is a place between eco and uneco that is best. Try to be some eco and some un-eco for the best results.

BTW Pogny what is a plateholder ?

Just because you get 90% return over time in the TT doesn't mean your real return is always 90%. Markup is the key to success