Info: Eco hunting, what you NEED to know.

<Medusa>

Mature
Joined
Oct 22, 2011
Posts
45
This post was originally intended as a PM to Joker but I then though this might be something that could really benefit everyone here so I decided to make a new thread with it, and I highly recommend anyone suffering from big hunting losses to actually read it all. Warning for the huge wall of text tho :rolleyes:.
This is not intended as flaming or to be negative I just want to point a couple of things out


Since I would hate to see the best(?) melee user in the game go I have decided to give you some tips to try out for the weeks until your brake, and point out what I believe you should do to improve your returns.


1. You seem to hunt almost only on taxed Land areas! What I have noticed a lot of people don't realise is that paying 5% tax does not mean you will loose 5% more PEDs! Assuming the average loot return is 90-95% (which it is) let's say 95% in this example to make it simple, adding 5% tax to that changes return from 95% to 90% this is an increase in cost by 100%!!! not 5%. Even assuming 90% average return paying 5% tax increases your costs by 50%.

2. Most of the mobs on your favourite mob list are ones that have very low MU on their loot and all of them are very frequently hunted by other players. Now you might not be looking for better returns including MU but just to reach a average TT return of 80-90% so this MU mobs is kind of optional.

3. Lots of regen on most of the mobs you tend to hunt. Now regen I'm not to sure about how much it affects the average loot but it does seem to have at least a slight negative effect. I would advise to stay clear of the regen mobs unless they have MU to cover for it. Regen mobs also makes it hard to use finishers (more on that later)

4. Damage enhancers: These don't really change your eco but the cost of the enhancers themself is most likely just added on top of the rest, no idea whether the cost of the enhancers are compensated for in the loot or not but at the very least the MU on them is lost.
Worth using them on regen mobs? I don't know but I would just say stay away from regen mobs instead and not have to worry about that :).

5. Overkill: Your sword has awesome damage, however that can also be causing some problems, especially since it deals so much per swing. Now I don't know whether you use a finisher or not but I'm going to assume you aren't here. With 6 damage enhancers your sword does about 200dmg/swing, using this to last hit a mob will on average do around 100dmg overkill. Lets say you are killing atrox young with this at 1000hp each (excluding the regen here for simple numbers) doing 100dmg overkill per atrox young will mean you pay 10% more for each mob killed which again as in the LA example increase your costs by 100-200% (90-95% down to 80-85% return)

6. Armor and Fap: I believe you already use gremlin armor and a fapper which is good. However if armor Isn't a must on the mob then naked + fapper is better (assuming its Adj/Imp/mod fap atleast)

7. Evade skill: From your skill list I see you only have 2900 evade, have you chipped out that already or how can it be that low compared to your other skills? Anyway, hunting many of these mobs you would want atleast lvl 50 evader preferably higher ofc but yea thats pretty hard to get I know.

8. Having to much DPS? I doubt the actuall DPS does anything to the returns but overkill is probably a factor here.

9. One mob at a time! Obivous perhaps, especially with low evade level.

10. Swinging at dead mobs: This atually decays your melee weapons so stop the auto swinging when they die or It's close to 40PEC loss every swing and this can add up fast.

This all of course apply to TT values, hunting on LA can be ok if you can cover the tax with MU or really want a mission done etc.
Not sure if I forgot anything now, but I don't see ANY way to get less than 75% average returns if following just a couple of these points.

I would like to see you hunt something like Formidon, Scipulor, Big Argos, Malcruentor, Formicacida, Osseocollum, Big armax/Atrax or Sumima following the above mentioned stuff with perhaps a rep edge 2x0 as finisher which I assume you have maxed or is close to maxing. Doing this there is no way I would believe getting average return of below 60-70 or even 80% and this is without any lucky HoF.

Hope this helps at least a couple of people improve their game :)
 
This post was originally intended as a PM to Joker but I then though this might be something that could really benefit everyone here so I decided to make a new thread with it, and I highly recommend anyone suffering from big hunting losses to actually read it all. Warning for the huge wall of text tho :rolleyes:.
This is not intended as flaming or to be negative I just want to point a couple of things out


Since I would hate to see the best(?) melee user in the game go I have decided to give you some tips to try out for the weeks until your brake, and point out what I believe you should do to improve your returns.


1. You seem to hunt almost only on taxed Land areas! What I have noticed a lot of people don't realise is that paying 5% tax does not mean you will loose 5% more PEDs! Assuming the average loot return is 90-95% (which it is) let's say 95% in this example to make it simple, adding 5% tax to that changes return from 95% to 90% this is an increase in cost by 100%!!! not 5%. Even assuming 90% average return paying 5% tax increases your costs by 50%.

2. Most of the mobs on your favourite mob list are ones that have very low MU on their loot and all of them are very frequently hunted by other players. Now you might not be looking for better returns including MU but just to reach a average TT return of 80-90% so this MU mobs is kind of optional.

3. Lots of regen on most of the mobs you tend to hunt. Now regen I'm not to sure about how much it affects the average loot but it does seem to have at least a slight negative effect. I would advise to stay clear of the regen mobs unless they have MU to cover for it. Regen mobs also makes it hard to use finishers (more on that later)

4. Damage enhancers: These don't really change your eco but the cost of the enhancers themself is most likely just added on top of the rest, no idea whether the cost of the enhancers are compensated for in the loot or not but at the very least the MU on them is lost.
Worth using them on regen mobs? I don't know but I would just say stay away from regen mobs instead and not have to worry about that :).

5. Overkill: Your sword has awesome damage, however that can also be causing some problems, especially since it deals so much per swing. Now I don't know whether you use a finisher or not but I'm going to assume you aren't here. With 6 damage enhancers your sword does about 200dmg/swing, using this to last hit a mob will on average do around 100dmg overkill. Lets say you are killing atrox young with this at 1000hp each (excluding the regen here for simple numbers) doing 100dmg overkill per atrox young will mean you pay 10% more for each mob killed which again as in the LA example increase your costs by 100-200% (90-95% down to 80-85% return)

6. Armor and Fap: I believe you already use gremlin armor and a fapper which is good. However if armor Isn't a must on the mob then naked + fapper is better (assuming its Adj/Imp/mod fap atleast)

7. Evade skill: From your skill list I see you only have 2900 evade, have you chipped out that already or how can it be that low compared to your other skills? Anyway, hunting many of these mobs you would want atleast lvl 50 evader preferably higher ofc but yea thats pretty hard to get I know.

8. Having to much DPS? I doubt the actuall DPS does anything to the returns but overkill is probably a factor here.

9. One mob at a time! Obivous perhaps, especially with low evade level.

10. Swinging at dead mobs: This atually decays your melee weapons so stop the auto swinging when they die or It's close to 40PEC loss every swing and this can add up fast.

This all of course apply to TT values, hunting on LA can be ok if you can cover the tax with MU or really want a mission done etc.
Not sure if I forgot anything now, but I don't see ANY way to get less than 75% average returns if following just a couple of these points.

I would like to see you hunt something like Formidon, Scipulor, Big Argos, Malcruentor, Formicacida, Osseocollum, Big armax/Atrax or Sumima following the above mentioned stuff with perhaps a rep edge 2x0 as finisher which I assume you have maxed or is close to maxing. Doing this there is no way I would believe getting average return of below 60-70 or even 80% and this is without any lucky HoF.

Hope this helps at least a couple of people improve their game :)


big wall of text for sure :)
going to re read it...
first answer some..

1 yes i chipped out much evade and FA skills.. just to fund hunting...(still lvl 41 evader!)
2 taxes yes suck... but i am getting 1000-1500 peds back each week hunting these LAs...
3 I use a finisher much of the time... as97 (which i listed on auction or opalo)
4 swining at dead mobs is closer to 64 pecs for me :) and I am super careful with this

going to read the rest...

and thank you for the thoughful post i appreciate your input

I think what many fail to notice when burning 1000-1500 peds an hour...
you need 3-7 globals an HOUR every HOUR you hunt... just to break even...

I know this is a high amount to cycle each hour... but still with out globals I am average 40-60% returns... globals are critical to the equation...

I have tried some mark up mobs they are nice... but still with out globals the average is still 40-60% returns... mark up isnt helping it is the global... when you are doing this much cycling an hour... u need the globals and hofs to break even...

that is why Rex and things are good to hunt with... even though little markup... loss have been minimumal over the last few weeks and with the prize from the event wins it has been ok...

but recent last week or so... loot has taken a nose dive worse then ever
 
Last edited:
1. You seem to hunt almost only on taxed Land areas! What I have noticed a lot of people don't realise is that paying 5% tax does not mean you will loose 5% more PEDs! Assuming the average loot return is 90-95% (which it is) let's say 95% in this example to make it simple, adding 5% tax to that changes return from 95% to 90% this is an increase in cost by 100%!!! not 5%. Even assuming 90% average return paying 5% tax increases your costs by 50%.
Nevermind, I get what you are saying. But a change from 10% to 5% would be double. Going from 95% to 90% is still 5%.
 
Last edited:
another thing i think i should note...

I have hunted almost all mobs in game...

I have a global on nearly 100 different mobs...

85 ot 6 on track since a lot didnt track from different planets...


So i have tested a lot of mobs and various returns...

i try to stick to mobs i lose the least on...
my theory was... if i can break even long enough... or lose a little... i will sometime hit the big one to put me back in the +
that is what i try to do...

only recently in the last 5 months have i noticed that the loot in the 20-60% range has increased HUGE... around the time MA made the change to the loot system...

I am guessing they didnt factor in something for Melee... or high DPS...
It is weird to you that
2x POD owners selling out..
1x Rainbow selling out...

the 3 top lvl melee ingame..
 
It boggles my mind how many people hunt on taxed lands. WHY?????? The only reason I will ever hunt on taxed lands is if there is no other place to hunt the creature and the MU it drops justifies it.

No offense joker but your mining log really showed you don't approach this game from a critically thinking viewpoint.

You may get 1000-1500 back a week but if you're hunting more than 25-37.5 hours on a 4% tax rate you're losing money still, assuming you burn 1k per hour. If you burnt 2k per hour it would take 12.5-18.75 hours.
 
About the Rextelum hunting on LA yes, if you win 1000PED every week thats a good bonus, still depends on how much you hunted during that week tho, since 1500PED/hour x0.95 in return x0.05 is 71.25PED paid in taxes every hour, so that could be good depending on how much you hunt to win that. Also I think Rextelum is actually a pretty good mob, they don't have much regen and can drop some decent MU stuff (looted spartacus backstrap L, tiger arms L etc).

As for the amount of globals needed, the actuall "globals" dont really mean anything. You will get just as many 5 ped loots hunting a 100 hp creature as 50 ped loots hunting a 1000hp creature. It's all about how many you kill to reach an average, and the bigger the hp of the mob the more risk of bad runs (bigger swings).

If you were to hunt small Formidon for example, you might find yourself profiting on a run without a single global, same with Argos, Longus and a lot of other mobs, it happens often. However hunting stuff like Aurli and not getting a global in a run is indeed painful, and all you can do is hope you get a big one next run to make up for it.
 
i have a feeling with the recent ped drain from my account...

and the way rex are looting they are going to hit a nice hof in the next 2 days...

this happened 3 times recently each time was a 20k+ pedder...


Byron Olrunamuck Zillous Rextelum Soldier 27,061 2012-04-02 05:13:19
Ravenclad Raven Darkveil Rextelum Soldier 26,313 2012-03-21 01:50:17
Team "sundayhunt" Proteron Guardian 42,674 2012-03-11 16:48:34

the Prot makes sense because it is located on the same server as Rex...


each time loot for me took a HUGE dip... and each time resulted in a nice fat hof...
Hopefully i can catch it this time
because atm i can not global to save my life
 
I would advise not chasing the big HoFs, of course it's fun but it's better to let the HoF come to you:), and in the meantime make sure to keep returns high. Also profiting purely on TT is just never going to happen to 99% of the players, what you can profit on however is to get 90-95% average returns and loot stuff with MU.

Also I doubt any mob is "due" to HoF, Rextelum and Proteron give them out every now and then simply because they have high HP and are killed in thousands every day, it,s bound to happen pretty often, just as Argos give out the usual 3-7K all the time because they get killed probably close to 500k a week...
 
5. Overkill: Your sword has awesome damage, however that can also be causing some problems, especially since it deals so much per swing. Now I don't know whether you use a finisher or not but I'm going to assume you aren't here. With 6 damage enhancers your sword does about 200dmg/swing, using this to last hit a mob will on average do around 100dmg overkill. Lets say you are killing atrox young with this at 1000hp each (excluding the regen here for simple numbers) doing 100dmg overkill per atrox young will mean you pay 10% more for each mob killed which again as in the LA example increase your costs by 100-200% (90-95% down to 80-85% return)

Do you have any proof of this? Everyone including me tested for this, and overkill is returned in loot always. There is no need for finishers and no need to fear regen mobs.
 
Do you have any proof of this? Everyone including me tested for this, and overkill is returned in loot always. There is no need for finishers and no need to fear regen mobs.

So if I grab a LR65 and go cycle 500PED on punys you are saying I will get around 450PED loot? Im sorry but thats not what will happen, and yes I also know about overamping small guns to get bigger loot and thats also not effective, even tho it works to a certain extent.
 
Do you have any proof of this? Everyone including me tested for this, and overkill is returned in loot always. There is no need for finishers and no need to fear regen mobs.

I have scoured these forums and not seen the tests you refer to. Any chance you want to prove your statement with some numbers?

The only info i've seen refers to things like overkilling punies being a bad idea.
 
Do not fear regen mob. Try to use APIS+DANTE on Trox Young, and P4A+104 on trox young, you will notice an increase in average loot per mob, because you spend more on each mob to kill.

Joker, if you hunt in LA 4%-5%, low MU mob, and cycled 50k peds weekly and you are up 1500-2000 peds, I don't say that you lie or whatever, but if it does happen, we need to reconsider the loot theory.
 
nlnforever, Joker receives 1500-2000k peds from weekly competition held on that LA:)
It's not the profit he makes
 
Joker, if you hunt in LA 4%-5%, low MU mob, and cycled 50k peds weekly and you are up 1500-2000 peds, I don't say that you lie or whatever, but if it does happen, we need to reconsider the loot theory.

3.99%
and a lot of the times I get back what I put in... in taxes... thus making it tax free hunting on the LA
 
Byron Olrunamuck Zillous Rextelum Soldier 27,061 2012-04-02 05:13:19
Ravenclad Raven Darkveil Rextelum Soldier 26,313 2012-03-21 01:50:17
Team "sundayhunt" Proteron Guardian 42,674 2012-03-11 16:48:34

the Prot makes sense because it is located on the same server as Rex...

I absolutely agree...
Proteron and Rextelum... they have same amount of characters in names... 8...
Proteron and Rextelum have same amount of vowels... 3...
and more interesting - same amount of consonants... 5... Proteron... Rextelum...
both Proteron and Rextelum... have same amount of double-vowels... 2...
but only Proteron have double consonants...
so it HOFs almost twice more...
.......
...
.
 
Do you have any proof of this? Everyone including me tested for this, and overkill is returned in loot always. There is no need for finishers and no need to fear regen mobs.

All tests i`ve seen show, that overkill is wasted peds...
Would be cool if you showed us "everyones" tests...

I hunted a lot with opalo + eamp15, which worked pretty well, but wasting approx. 18 out of 20 dmg, to do 2hp lasthit on every creep on 1 run was a stupid thing to do. Never going to do that again
 
a good and corect thread..rarely you can see a hunter who know all these..at least he was a hardcore hunter. Still..the overkill problem is not important..if you ask me, at least maybe on low hp nonregen mobs. On the medium hp and big ones...the second gun for finish is actualy an obstacle for speed and eficiency in hunting(on low mobs too ..my personal opinion). The rest..i think is an exact comentary about hunting and is quite a first for this forum in years. +rep
 
Do you have any proof of this? Everyone including me tested for this, and overkill is returned in loot always. There is no need for finishers and no need to fear regen mobs.

So, is there a test somewhere where someone with Foeripper for example is shooting exa youngs? I'm sorry if I missed it.
 
Never seen any difference in returns on taxed LA. The returns should be smaller but they aren't. Why? Go figure..

Do not fear regen mob. Try to use APIS+DANTE on Trox Young, and P4A+104 on trox young, you will notice an increase in average loot per mob, because you spend more on each mob to kill.
Yup, Apis+Dante seems to give better results.
The reason why it does is a whole another question. Some ppl believe the "Waste more to get better loot"-theory, but i think dr3w's theory is better :p
Proteron and Rextelum... they have same amount of characters in names... 8...
Proteron and Rextelum have same amount of vowels... 3...
and more interesting - same amount of consonants... 5... Proteron... Rextelum...
both Proteron and Rextelum... have same amount of double-vowels... 2...
but only Proteron have double consonants...
so it HOFs almost twice more...
.......
...
.
 
So if I grab a LR65 and go cycle 500PED on punys you are saying I will get around 450PED loot? Im sorry but thats not what will happen, and yes I also know about overamping small guns to get bigger loot and thats also not effective, even tho it works to a certain extent.
Did you try it?

I have scoured these forums and not seen the tests you refer to. Any chance you want to prove your statement with some numbers?

The only info i've seen refers to things like overkilling punies being a bad idea.

All tests i`ve seen show, that overkill is wasted peds...
Would be cool if you showed us "everyones" tests...

I hunted a lot with opalo + eamp15, which worked pretty well, but wasting approx. 18 out of 20 dmg, to do 2hp lasthit on every creep on 1 run was a stupid thing to do. Never going to do that again

Here are some links:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132510-Mining-loot-analysis
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?216585-My-theory-about-loot-in-general
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?223477-Loot-Facts!
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...176428-5-different-weapons-against-Argos-TEST
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?211630-Q-90-TT-return-What-is-the-100
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?101842-Some-utterly-insane-tests
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132137-Grave-Digger-got-bored

And there are more of these, with nice charts. Plus my chart with overkilling mobs with the last shot doing more damage than needed for the whole mob on shinkibas:
uX4W7.png


Now, where is the proof that shows overkill is bad?
 
I have also heard misses are included in cost of kill and are not a bad thing...

thus when you kill and you have had a lot of misses and hit a nice multiplier you get a higher pay out...

I try to keep costs to a minimum so i dont overkill but have heard from peolpe who have cycled millions of peds that it isnt a bad thing...

I stick to eco though
 
1. You seem to hunt almost only on taxed Land areas!

4. Damage enhancers: These don't really change your eco but the cost of the enhancers themself is most likely just added on top of the rest, no idea whether the cost of the enhancers are compensated for in the loot or not but at the very least the MU on them is lost.

5. Overkill: Your sword has awesome damage, however that can also be causing some problems, especially since it deals so much per swing.
These are the main issues I see for Joker. Using a slow attacking huge dmg weapon like a longblade should be the best item to be using dmg enhancers on, ofcourse they break but not as fast as on pistols.

Markup, regen, armor, evade, mob gangs are all either irrelevant or minor offences of no/small importance. Joker would just like to see 90% returns & he is not. I have to believe that at some point he will hit an ATH or something but he is already at breaking point. And it's like the game does it to put off people collecting their prize at the end, so someone else gets it.
 
I absolutely agree...
Proteron and Rextelum... they have same amount of characters in names... 8...
Proteron and Rextelum have same amount of vowels... 3...
and more interesting - same amount of consonants... 5... Proteron... Rextelum...
both Proteron and Rextelum... have same amount of double-vowels... 2...
but only Proteron have double consonants...
so it HOFs almost twice more...
.......
...
.

hahaha this = epic :D
 

The only thing that chart shows is:
1. You have no idea have to hunt eco if your "eco setup" gives you 68.88% average return on shinkbas.
2. Cycling 13 PED on and killing less than 50 mobs will give you completely random loots and no way to find even close to an average.
3. Since the average amount of mobs killed is about the same for both setups and roughly the same costs per run I can assume you are actually not doing much overkill at all.
4. Way to small sample to draw any conclusion about anything except that you play very uneco.
5. Testing overkill like that is a billion times more time consuming than just hunting punys with a tango.

As for the charts with IMK2 vs H400(L) on Feffs all that shows is that loot is RELATED to cost of kill, this does not mean loot is 100% based on how much you spent killing a mob. This is probably a safety mechanism to prevent some people from completely ruining themselves due to playing stupid. Of course the loot is smaller when using IMK2 since it kills them faster, giving them less time to regen and cost less per dmg done but you also pay less per kill making it more eco in the long run.

I have also heard misses are included in cost of kill and are not a bad thing...

thus when you kill and you have had a lot of misses and hit a nice multiplier you get a higher pay out...

I try to keep costs to a minimum so i dont overkill but have heard from peolpe who have cycled millions of peds that it isnt a bad thing...

I stick to eco though

Nononono, :laugh: this is complete crazy talk, doesn't really matter when you use a maxed out sword tho.

As a general rule for everyone, don't listen to the crazy loot theorycrafters out there, they are generally just trying to come up with an explanation to why their loot sucks instead of just doing what most people already know works and give you 90%+ returns, which is to kill everything as cheap as possible. (some of them probably do it just for the fun of trying to figure out how things work tho :))
 
Testing overkill like that is a billion times more time consuming than just hunting punys with a tango.
I will post a better test for overkill only. Possibly on puny mobs since their loot markup is decent. With a ~30 dmg gun (while they have just 10hp). Will 200% overkill be suggestive enough?

As for the charts with IMK2 vs H400(L) on Feffs all that shows is that loot is RELATED to cost of kill, this does not mean loot is 100% based on how much you spent killing a mob. This is probably a safety mechanism to prevent some people from completely ruining themselves due to playing stupid.
If it works so well for that case, and the fact that the mechanic is so simple, why wouldnt MA use it for everything, including the eco scenario? If everyone is not losing when they hunt like idiots, where would the money come from, for the people that hunt eco? If on average hunters have as a whole an eco lower than 2.7, why isn't someone with an eco over 2.9 always profiting?

As a general rule for everyone, don't listen to the crazy loot theorycrafters out there, they are generally just trying to come up with an explanation to why their loot sucks instead of just doing what most people already know works and give you 90%+ returns, which is to kill everything as cheap as possible. (some of them probably do it just for the fun of trying to figure out how things work tho :))
I'm not trying to come up with explanation for my sucky loot, because it's not. It's normal. And what is your explanation for the hunter that spent 350.000 PED and got 89% back? I'm all ears. Or the miners that dropped over 100.000 ped and got around 90% back?

Perhaps you could also teach me how you can get 90%+ returns by killing everything as cheap as possible, I tried it for years and I never profited. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

killing less than 50 mobs will give you completely random loots and no way to find even close to an average.
There are over 1000 kills in that chart. 500 per weapon setup. How many do you want me kill before you decide it's a good average?
 
Did you try it?

And there are more of these, with nice charts. Plus my chart with overkilling mobs with the last shot doing more damage than needed for the whole mob on shinkibas:
uX4W7.png


Now, where is the proof that shows overkill is bad?

I forgot to ask one thing, cuz it did not come out clearly in your other post, what gun you used for the eco stats and what gun for the overkill stats?
 
I will post a better test for overkill only. Possibly on puny mobs since their loot markup is decent. With a ~30 dmg gun (while they have just 10hp). Will 200% overkill be suggestive enough?

There are over 1000 kills in that chart. 500 per weapon setup. How many do you want me kill before you decide it's a good average?

And pls enlighten me on wich Markup you are talking about?? :eyecrazy:
 
I absolutely agree...
Proteron and Rextelum... they have same amount of characters in names... 8...
Proteron and Rextelum have same amount of vowels... 3...
and more interesting - same amount of consonants... 5... Proteron... Rextelum...
both Proteron and Rextelum... have same amount of double-vowels... 2...
but only Proteron have double consonants...
so it HOFs almost twice more...
.......
...
.

Really? I say WOW cause "I just go out and shoot stuff".
 
Back
Top