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future of looter and eff.?

Jhereg said:
I think MA/PP does take more % from those with lower efficiency and lower looter than those with higher efficiency and higher looter.

Think: 1 - (Your TT return %) goes away forever in the end, and that's the cut that goes to MA/PP, minus any type of TT payback. This can be thought of how much you decay into the system, or the entropy of the system...

But since lower efficiency/lower looter tend to be at a lower cycle, the absolute numbers that MA/PP takes from the decay is lessened.

at 2000 cycle/hr, and 99% tt return, that's 20 ped/hr spent versus at 200 cycle/hr and 90% tt return, it is still 20 ped/hr spent (as an example). Of course, guns with the kinds of efficiencies and looter lvls to reach these tt values are not common.

Also realize, to reach 100 looter lvl in one profession, let alone all three, takes quite a large number of peds cycled, and therefore peds paid out to MA.
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Ok, if I wold follow your logic, then the more loot 2.0 weapons are used and the higher the looter skill gets, the less income MA would generate?
Do you really think MA would cut their own income?
 
Msturlese said:
@ Entropia DAO: return for players is Capped. imho game is zero sum TT so... you get 0.5% off codex in skills, get 1% in skill from green lines reward (you can exploit some this with "death roll bonus" to a smaller higher amountt then there is a 0.5% of "GLOBAL POOL" can we can we call it JACKPOT once for all ? and the remaining is 98% that is effectively the average published in 2017 from MA.

Players loose to the "House" 2% to play, of which 0.2 to 0.7% is returned in shraps conversion.
players loose to the house ALL TEH MARKUP ON EQUIP (YESL ELM WEAPONS SOLD AT 200 PED MAKE YOU LOOSE 199 PED... there is a nice post on this totally forgotten
[EDIT: For the avoidance of doubt that is not MA profit, it is cashed in from the ELM item seller as pure MU that will NEVER be returned in loot calculation]
Players consider swirls profit but it is included in the 98.5% cap
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Markup is not paid to the house, it is paid to other players....

Skills have no intrinsic TT value. ESI's have TT value...
 
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wizz said:
Ok, if I wold follow your logic, then the more loot 2.0 weapons are used and the higher the looter skill gets, the less income MA would generate?
Do you really think MA would cut their own income?
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1) Looter profession is like a loyalty program. If you reach lvl 100 looter, you will have spent 20k,30k or more USD to reach it. (7% tt return difference)
2) Efficient gear provides players a reason to hunt to try and get the gear. But if you really think about it, mid range (60%) to the very top range (90%) represents only 2% TT return difference.
3) Like I said in the previous post, those with higher looter/efficiency will cycle more, so in the end, MA is still making money off of them. The benefit of looter/efficiency is the carrot for continuing to grind.

When MA put into the looter/efficiency system, they probably did the math already regarding what would happen if a players ended up reaching lvl 100 looter lvl with 80%+ efficiency. That still represents a ~1 % TT return for MA from that player, taking into account shrapnel conversion. And a player will likely never do better than this, because the number of weapons at the 90% eff range is small and require a more significant up front investment.


Also, mathematically speaking, it makes sense. The amount of peds that you lose in TT return % is logically the cut MA/PP/deed owners take in.
 
wizz said:
Ok, if I wold follow your logic, then the more loot 2.0 weapons are used and the higher the looter skill gets, the less income MA would generate?
Do you really think MA would cut their own income?
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It's a chage in perspective. Make 20 ped / hr on the small fish that hunt 2 hours a day with low skills and low eff or make 20 ped / hr on the customers that have much higher turnover and play for much more hours a day with efficient tools. It's the same for them per hour, but better gear and skills gives them more hours on a player...
 
Jhereg said:
1) Looter profession is like a loyalty program. If you reach lvl 100 looter, you will have spent 20k,30k or more USD to reach it. (7% tt return difference)
2) Efficient gear provides players a reason to hunt to try and get the gear. But if you really think about it, mid range (60%) to the very top range (90%) represents only 2% TT return difference.
3) Like I said in the previous post, those with higher looter/efficiency will cycle more, so in the end, MA is still making money off of them. The benefit of looter/efficiency is the carrot for continuing to grind.

When MA put into the looter/efficiency system, they probably did the math already regarding what would happen if a players ended up reaching lvl 100 looter lvl with 80%+ efficiency. That still represents a ~1 % TT return for MA from that player, taking into account shrapnel conversion. And a player will likely never do better than this, because the number of weapons at the 90% eff range is small and require a more significant up front investment.


Also, mathematically speaking, it makes sense. The amount of peds that you lose in TT return % is logically the cut MA/PP/deed owners take in.
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Is this a theory, or a proven fact?
 
Jhereg said:
Theory with evidence to back it up. But you will have to decide for yourself what you think.
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Just wondering how you would get evidence about MA's return :unsure:
 
Eventually, they'll release something new to increase to cost to play across the board.

Footguards, Rings, pills, loot 2.0 weapons, etc. etc. As more and more people reach the treshhold of "hypothetically" maximum returns, they will once again change (increase) the cost to achieve the highest return %.
 
Jhereg said:
Skills have no intrinsic TT value. ESI's have TT value...
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When you receive a "Payout" from Codex ranking it is a PED Amount.
as i get 25 Ped Anatomy i receive 22.4 PED Skill...
to me means that (AT THAT point of the function my skills are worth 1.116 PED per point.)
(we made this conversation with Katie too... i think that the "Skill Lines" in System are part of the "Payout"
this point is to make myself a mental order on teh 100% return made of skill+loot+"global pool"+("MA"+"PP") slices.
but of course it is not confirmed by MA.
this is a question for next live session
"are skill increments during activity calculated as their TT Value" ? "Is codex 0.5% od Decay computed as Loot return?"
so we can tick also this point with a sure ansawer
 
Killahbee said:
Eventually, they'll release something new to increase to cost to play across the board.

Footguards, Rings, pills, loot 2.0 weapons, etc. etc. As more and more people reach the treshhold of "hypothetically" maximum returns, they will once again change (increase) the cost to achieve the highest return %.
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Earings, necklace, toe-rings, B!&^ plugs
 
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Msturlese said:
When you receive a "Payout" from Codex ranking it is a PED Amount.
as i get 25 Ped Anatomy i receive 22.4 PED Skill...
to me means that (AT THAT point of the function my skills are worth 1.116 PED per point.)
(we made this conversation with Katie too... i think that the "Skill Lines" in System are part of the "Payout"
this point is to make myself a mental order on teh 100% return made of skill+loot+"global pool"+("MA"+"PP") slices.
but of course it is not confirmed by MA.
this is a question for next live session
"are skill increments during activity calculated as their TT Value" ? "Is codex 0.5% od Decay computed as Loot return?"
so we can tick also this point with a sure ansawer
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Skill values are indicated in ped because that's the unit used when chipping in and out (How much equivalent of a skill implant is x amount of skill worth).

The reason you know skills don't have intrinsic TT value in actual ped is because of how ESIs work, which do have TT value. When you chip in, you consume the TT of the skill implant, and must get a new one to chip back out, consuming additional TT. When you chip out, you don't gain any TT from your skill, it simply 'fills' the ESI, at some penalty to TT.

The conclusion is, skill gain/codex gain does not change the TT value in the universe. Chipping out results in some TT penalty on the ESI used. Chipping in consumes the remaining ESI. Skill gain/codex doesn't require this extra step.
 
Killahbee said:
Eventually, they'll release something new to increase to cost to play across the board.

Footguards, Rings, pills, loot 2.0 weapons, etc. etc. As more and more people reach the treshhold of "hypothetically" maximum returns, they will once again change (increase) the cost to achieve the highest return %.
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Amen to this.. Mindark is very well know for moving goalposts.... always keep it in mind :) House never loses :)
 
Droops said:
No idea if already posted :

https://www.mindark.com/investor-re...documents/Interim-Report-Jan-Jun-2022_ENG.pdf
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First time I see it.
It looks somewhat healthy, except for the increase in operating expenses and the higher amount of ped liability in game.

It is interesting to see that the total sales of last year was $7.1M.
It gives a sense of magnitude, when thinking about investment opportunities.

Their operating expenses are huge however, but this might have something to do with tax reasons I guess.
 
QQ PewPew said:
Earings, necklace, toe-rings, B!&^ plugs
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OMG you KNOW if MA introduces b#@@ plugs with fox tails soooo many plays will have them in their arss! 🤣 maybe they will have buffs like “50 Penetration protection” or something? 😂

p.s. But seriously, I wish MA had more creativity to make little funny stuff, but we all know they lack creativity or follow through with fun stuff. 😭
 
I am fairly confident they learned their lesson from the dpp-based loot and increased looter lvl won't have any significant impact vs their income. In regards to efficiency, they control it directly through the weapon design & balance, so that is (or should be) zero concern.

If many people will reach lvl 5million looter will have exactly zero impact on newcomers and low-volume players because the massively overwhelming source of tt income of any and each player is their own tt expense.
 
Deposits less withdrawals is the real cash right, regardless of anything else. I believe even Messi quoted in one his threads he deposited large amounts just for larger liquidity (could've been humour, who knows).

If we exclude active game play and just looked at deeds, MA does very well acting as an investment bank. Everytime many deeds change hands it often triggers a deposit. The seller who once deposited for those deeds, doesn't necessarily withdraw. We're talking huge sums for deeds. There's always new asset sales, plus PP asset sales, that go through MA cash books.

Now add in every "new" weapon, armour ring and everything else that often trigger a deposit for resale but likely not a withdrawal. Then account for huge depreciation on many of those older items overtime (that have already created cash deposits), instant upside on MA's P&L.

I would not be surprised if in-game playing costs triggering deposits is 50% or less of generated cash.

It's quite impressive how a relativity small player base can support almost 20 years of salary costs for the entire MA business, let alone other real costs.

So game play and decay, is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Rick.
 
RickEngland said:
It's quite impressive how a relativity small player base can support almost 20 years of salary costs for the entire MA business, let alone other real costs.

So game play and decay, is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
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Wrong assumption Rick
MA accounts for each PED sale let's say 80.000.000 PED that is 8.000.000 of USD
a LIABILITY V/ PLayers for 2.400.000 (30% of sales amount)
adn SENIORAGE PROFIT for 5.600.000 USD
Le'ts FLIP the position
now we are MA, we took a liability JUST FOR THE PED PURCHASED IN THE LAST 6 month... after 6 month you can not BE SURE OF withdrawal, if MA closes server will not pay all, will pay who deposited since 30 march 2022
so basically MA is keeping MORE RESERVES tahn just the last 6 month but .....

80000000 / 2.4000000 = 3.33x gearing on MA side
foR each PED in balance account reserves there are 3.33 ped that can request a withdraw
if there is a rush for liquidity of course 2.33 can not be reimboursed

the "Sitting ped" are TT value of armors and plates that are kept oftn full TT (and this is WHY UL armor decay defense, to lock in ped otherwise you could just repair 2 PED tor a run, instead you lock 1500 ped or more for each set, multimpled for 2...3 specialized armor for 10.000 player, this is 50.000.000 TT Ped of armors
then there are materials into shops, homes, ah, storages, vehickes to be used as storage, and more.. all locked ped. that is why just 30% is a safenet that let economy work
because seniorage of MA let it work like a central bank
and some "austrian economc school" fan players know what i mean
 
ProActive Mango said:
Wrong ;) Its still decay and taxes. "lost %" is ath..
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The person that said this was known to say half truths and he said it like 15 years ago.
Everything lootwise already changed mutliple times over.
It was never "decay" and taxes and it has been proven by testing a non decaying weapon in VU 7.

It was however true that armor and fap decay wasn't paid back and the "tax" was a figure based on DPP.
But what we are talking here is a much history as being able to trap mobs, exploiting sever border to hunt spiders and invisible mobs.

Now you get a % return based on cost and eff/looter lvl and things have never been more transparent and straight forward.
at 100lvl +90eff weapon you will get 99.3% return long run. And since loot variance has gone down a lot, that it is not going to be that long.

at 0lvl and 60eff weapon a new player will get almost 90% return. True, it does not seem that bad, and one could argue that 2M ped cycled will bring that player to a decent level but that means 200k PED or 20k $ before that person gets there. And there is still only 95% return.

So long story short, for any new player that starts today, it will cost at least 50k in loses and 10-20k USD in gear to break even long term. And a couple of years of grinding.
This will bring you to the point of getting MU break/ slight profit.

Or you can get a CDF weapon, play for fun and explore and know that you're going to lose money but aren't stressed about it.
 
Entropia Dao said:
...

at 0lvl and 60eff weapon a new player will get almost 90% return. True, it does not seem that bad, and one could argue that 2M ped cycled will bring that player to a decent level but that means 200k PED or 20k $ before that person gets there. And there is still only 95% return.
...
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Just want to clarify this point, the player would actually probably pay less, if that's the real cycle number, since they'll be improving their looter as they cycle....

Can ask Yazuki how much ped cycle it took them to get to lvl 60 looter :D... But with the appropriate optimization in skill gain I don't think it'll take that many peds to get to lvl 60 looter.
 
Entropia Dao said:
We know that higher efficiency + looter level lead to better % return.
Now, there is a little catch here when we see looter level steadily rising for players and high eff. weapons being bought from the MM vendor.
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Not trying to be negative here but Sounds like pay to win to me...
 
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