How do LA taxes work?

Detritus

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I know it's been asked before but from the info I can find opinions are all over the place, so I wanted to ask if there was any confirmed data under the new system that explains how land area taxes work?

Is this simply taken out of my loot? If the tax is 5%, does that mean I'm guaranteed only 95% of whatever my return would be, or is there some compensatory measure (e.g. loot is proportionally bigger)?
 

Starkiller

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I know it's been asked before but from the info I can find opinions are all over the place, so I wanted to ask if there was any confirmed data under the new system that explains how land area taxes work?

Is this simply taken out of my loot? If the tax is 5%, does that mean I'm guaranteed only 95% of whatever my return would be, or is there some compensatory measure (e.g. loot is proportionally bigger)?

Many years ago, I remember someone from MA's (I believe it was Marco actualy, not sure) team explaining how loot on Amethera (second continent on Calypso, at the time the only place with land areas - and no other planets) that loot size was somewhat higher than on Eudoria (the "normal" continent of Calypso) but only within boundaries of said LA's. This was the selling point for all those "outback Land areas" you see today, relative exclusive access to higher yelds. Was also a way to endorse Treasure Island at the time.

I don't remember if this was indeed ever confirmed with hard statistics, but I remember them writting it down somewhere, and if I am not mistake it might've been on this same forum.

This was however.... way back when :p So yeah... I didn't really answer your question entirely but I hope I helped somewhat.
 

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This was however.... way back when :p So yeah... I didn't really answer your question entirely but I hope I helped somewhat.

You are landarea owner. A simple, straightforward, current, and most importantly authoritative answer to this question seems to be impossible to get, as often as it is asked. Sure there must be a reason for this.
 

krogfan

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I know it's been asked before but from the info I can find opinions are all over the place, so I wanted to ask if there was any confirmed data under the new system that explains how land area taxes work?

Is this simply taken out of my loot? If the tax is 5%, does that mean I'm guaranteed only 95% of whatever my return would be, or is there some compensatory measure (e.g. loot is proportionally bigger)?

Weve tested this extensively (we had many lands from landgrabs) and I can say with 110% certainity that its talen from the loot to the landowner.

Landowners over the years has allways tried to say its not to endorce hunting in their lands but the truth is the simplest possible solution as allways. You pay straight from your loot when hunting on a taxed landarea.
 

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I know it's been asked before but from the info I can find opinions are all over the place, so I wanted to ask if there was any confirmed data under the new system that explains how land area taxes work?

Is this simply taken out of my loot? If the tax is 5%, does that mean I'm guaranteed only 95% of whatever my return would be, or is there some compensatory measure (e.g. loot is proportionally bigger)?

The simplest of explanations is that it is taken out of your loot. The problem is that if you do not believe in personal loot cycles (where it keeps tabs of how much you are owed) and such, you cannot believe it is taken out of YOUR loot. What about the Lidacon test? If you get a 65 ped global, you get a 65ped. Where did the 4% or 10% come from? Is your loot charged? For example, the system in the background says you are owed 80ped. As you hunt on a taxed area (or mined), you chip away at that 80ped (with the tax) until a resource comes along to pay you out and then it pays out 80ped - 8ped (10%) = 72ped global? Or did the taxed LA simply increase variance (IE. deeper swings) because there is less filling of the pot (which would explain why highly trafficked LAs tend to have periods of good returns)?

Why do I ask these questions? Because my position has always been it increased variance (pre 2.0.. i don't even know now). I always did better in taxed LAs than non (my LAs classified as non-taxed). There are factors here.. stability of loot seems to be better (for me) on Arkadia, could be that more people have been hunting on taxed LAs than non-taxed where I grinded, unmaxed in many cases, etc.

My primary point is assume that you are paying the land owners for the experience.. whether it be events, markup of the mobs, just want to have some fun, decent spawns, or whatever. Keep it in mind, balance your bankroll, and win! Properly run LA can far more rewarding as all the sparse spawns across the universe. I for one pay out 75% of my revenue in event prizes and fertilizer costs (and I believe BIG does as well). Fertilizer to keep dense spawns is very expensive.
 
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minim

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The simplest of explanations is that it is taken out of your loot. The problem is that if you do not believe in personal loot cycles (where it keeps tabs of how much you are owed) and such, you cannot believe it is taken out of YOUR loot. What about the Lidacon test? If you get a 65 ped global, you get a 65ped. Where did the 4% or 10% come from? Is your loot charged? For example, the system in the background says you are owed 80ped. As you hunt on a taxed area (or mined), you chip away at that 80ped (with the tax) until a resource comes along to pay you out and then it pays out 80ped - 8ped (10%) = 72ped global? Or did the taxed LA simply increase variance (IE. deeper swings) because there is less filling of the pot (which would explain why highly trafficked LAs tend to have periods of good returns)?

Why do I ask these questions? Because my position has always been it increased variance (pre 2.0.. i don't even know now). I always did better in taxed LAs than non (my LAs classified as non-taxed). There are factors here.. stability of loot seems to be better (for me) on Arkadia, could be that more people have been hunting on taxed LAs than non-taxed where I grinded, unmaxed in many cases, etc.

My primary point is assume that you are paying the land owners for the experience.. whether it be events, markup of the mobs, just want to have some fun, decent spawns, or whatever. Keep it in mind, balance your bankroll, and win! Properly run LA can far more rewarding as all the sparse spawns across the universe. I for one pay out 75% of my revenue in event prizes and fertilizer costs (and I believe BIG does as well). Fertilizer to keep dense spawns is very expensive.

Its cut from global size. Pretty easy to spot on big mobs and running similar setup. The average global size on a 4% will be 4% lower when u see the same multiplier hit at the same cost. Someone hunting them really efficient so that each kill cost the same ish spot this really really easy while hunting.

Smilgs tested and confirmed this with numbers, Linz tested it, I tested it and many others did. There is not even a slightest question that it's cut from your loot. I get that you don't like that since you own LAs but time to accept it ^^
 

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Its cut from global size. Pretty easy to spot on big mobs and running similar setup. The average global size on a 4% will be 4% lower when u see the same multiplier hit at the same cost. Someone hunting them really efficient so that each kill cost the same ish spot this really really easy while hunting.

Smilgs tested and confirmed this with numbers, Linz tested it, I tested it and many others did. There is not even a slightest question that it's cut from your loot. I get that you don't like that since you own LAs but time to accept it ^^

I am not doing this with you since you didn't read anything I said (as usual). If you did, you would know that I already said that it is the most simplest of explanations. It is just easier for you to assert I have an agenda because I own land areas when it is intellectually lazy. If you are unable to read, the last paragraph would be sufficient.
 

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What I meant with the above was not to be confrontative to landowners in any way, quite the opposite. Rather that I find it strange that we can't simply hear from the horse's mouth who pays for the cut. Either the landowners themselves don't know, or they live under a NDA which even forbids them to say that they live under a NDA. Is this a game or the secret service?
 

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What I meant with the above was not to be confrontative to landowners in any way, quite the opposite. Rather that I find it strange that we can't simply hear from the horse's mouth who pays for the cut. Either the landowners themselves don't know, or they live under a NDA which even forbids them to say that they live under a NDA. Is this a game or the secret service?

Land owners (unless you are ones with actual NDAs) do not know or have advanced information. (I don't have any) I agree with your sentiment in a variety of aspects. The problem and contention I have with others is my data doesn't match their data and I wouldn't necessarily trust people's tests (usually because they are done unscientifically) just as I would expect them not to trust mine. It's a whole lot of testing and time spent doing things that otherwise doesn't need to be that we ultimately can't REALLY prove because we don't know the underlining mechanisms beyond what sheets show and arguments can be made are short samples.
 

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Land owners (unless you are ones with actual NDAs) do not know or have advanced information. (I don't have any) I agree with your sentiment in a variety of aspects. The problem and contention I have with others is my data doesn't match their data and I wouldn't necessarily trust people's tests (usually because they are done unscientifically) just as I would expect them not to trust mine. It's a whole lot of testing and time spent doing things that otherwise doesn't need to be that we ultimately can't REALLY prove because we don't know the underlining mechanisms beyond what sheets show and arguments can be made are short samples.

I see a wall of text in a few posts above, make a simple test and raise your taxes to 10% then cycle a couple of hundred k:s then rinse and repeat without. Obvious and simple enough I guess cause thats what I did. Im sure theres some mechanics for big stones and average returns and such but in general Id assume they made the math bulletproof in MA:s favor.

As a landowner Id say your edge against a natural spawn is that you can make incentives for topgrinders or lucky ones on your lands but they do pay while hunting there to you.

//Linzey
 

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I am not doing this with you since you didn't read anything I said (as usual). If you did, you would know that I already said that it is the most simplest of explanations. It is just easier for you to assert I have an agenda because I own land areas when it is intellectually lazy. If you are unable to read, the last paragraph would be sufficient.

Oh I read it but you are correct that I was to lazy to comment every sentence. I can do a few now tho if you want.

The simplest of explanations is that it is taken out of your loot. The problem is that if you do not believe in personal loot cycles (where it keeps tabs of how much you are owed) and such, you cannot believe it is taken out of YOUR loot.

Yes it's taken from YOUR loot, stated above, tested by many and smilgs and documented it public even. Don't mix lootpool and spiritual things into this just to seed doubt please.

I always did better in taxed LAs than non (my LAs classified as non-taxed). There are factors here..

Everyone else that's tested and documented seems to do exactly the tax amount WORSE. Funny that the LA owner posting is doing the oposite isn't it? What factors? Magic? Or could it be the LA deed in your storage, sorry if I put to much logic into this but when I see many people without any personal economic reason for a false result come to result A and then ONE guy with a economic interest come to an oposite result I draw my conclusions. Others are free to do what they want.

My primary point is assume that you are paying the land owners for the experience.. whether it be events, markup of the mobs, just want to have some fun, decent spawns, or whatever.

I'm with you on this and I'm not sure how you can here state that we actually are paying when above you said that you are doing better on taxed LAs? I do agreed with you on this point and I'm always calculating my cost when I consider grinding a LA. For example when I did my Osseo mission Smilgs had better rewards than he had towards the end and I realized that I was breaking even with the rewards I was getting from him compared to tax (i guess that's why he lowered rewards just after..). It was easy to see that I lost out on that 4% but it didn't matter when that difference was paid back in rewards and lower defense cost as it was a better area than the natural spawn.

I for one pay out 75% of my revenue in event prizes and fertilizer costs (and I believe BIG does as well). Fertilizer to keep dense spawns is very expensive.

But even if you win 100% of the LA rewards you still lost the 25% + the fert cost as a hunter. If the spawn allows for less defense cost it can compensate for that but it's very very hard these days to defend a 4% cut in the loot. It's extremely hard to win that back in extra markup on LA mobs and it's a lot to win back in less defense due to better spawns. Grinding 10k/day you bleed 390-400peds or 2.5k+ weekly and that's a lot of markup to dig up if you ask me.
 

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But even if you win 100% of the LA rewards you still lost the 25% + the fert cost as a hunter. .

This is entirely wrong. And quite frankly you know it. You assume the la rewards are exactly the amount paid in. In this example, it would be far far less. But you know this.. so stop it. Hunt the way you want... stop thinking everyone has an agenda... because I could as easily say you have one too.

It's such a nonsensical argument on a very cancerous forum. I specifically stated what those factors would be.. including ones that could bias results (such as unmaxedness).. there's nothing magic or spiritual. Either take time to read what I state or just ignore it and don't bother posting.

Now... to your markup comment.. yes, we could take aim at markup on LAs for example.. but that is really symptomatic on hunting as a whole, not specifically for land areas in general.. and why the 2.0 changes are hard for people to stomach. Hopefully, that will get better.

You give me shit for calling BS to your assertions that I am driving an agenda, but you will never give me credit for all the times I have actually told people to not hunt on my LAs and even (I know GeorgeSkywalker will squee) leave Arkadia. There have been several times so that the players had (for that specific time period) a better experience or to try something different. We can go back and forth all day, it isn't going to make any difference and right now.. it's 85 degrees upstairs without an hvac and I can't string a good sentence now. So... have fun!
 
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minim

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I see you failed at % part of math. This is entirely wrong. And quite frankly you know it. You assume the la rewards are exactly the amount paid in. In this example, it would be far far less. But you know this.. so stop it. Hunt the way you want... stop thinking everyone has an agenda... because I could as easily say you have one too.

It's such a nonsensical argument on a very cancerous forum. I specifically stated what those factors would be.. including ones that could bias results (such as unmaxedness).. there's nothing magic or spiritual. Either take time to read what I state or just ignore it and don't bother posting.

Now... to your markup comment.. yes, we could take aim at markup on LAs for example.. but that is really symptomatic on hunting as a whole, not specifically for land areas in general.. and why the 2.0 changes are hard for people to stomach. Hopefully, that will get better.

No I didn't, If you pocket 25% of the tax it's gone from the table and not there for the hunters to win back. Not saying it's wrong to have a ROI on your investment, just saying that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I don't think everyone has an agenda but if you see many people without an economic interest getting a worse return and then ONE person that actually has an economic interest claims the exact oposite then I make a logical assumption nothing more. Honestly you don't see this?

I read what you said, we don't agreed, you have an economical agenda here and have the oposite result of everyone else I know playing. People deserve to know this. I don't have anything against you atomic and I can't recall that we argue on other things than this exact topic (that we have argued about many times in the past) and it has nothing to do with you as a person. I argued with smilgs on this topic aswell and called him out for the exact thing you are doing since he did run the osseos at the time. Once he did the tests with a public result it wasn't much to argue on anymore. Numbers speak for themselves.
 

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I know it's been asked before but from the info I can find opinions are all over the place, so I wanted to ask if there was any confirmed data under the new system that explains how land area taxes work?

Is this simply taken out of my loot? If the tax is 5%, does that mean I'm guaranteed only 95% of whatever my return would be, or is there some compensatory measure (e.g. loot is proportionally bigger)?

It's something like this:

a = Hunters Loot (tt value)
b = LA Hunt Tax
LA Income Tax = a / (1 – b) - a

Example:
One hunter looted 5000 PED tt after his run on a LA with 3.9% hunt tax:
The LA Income Tax will be PED 202.9
based on above formula: 5000 / (1-3.9%) - 5000
 

theProphet

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since there is no guaranteed return, all your opinions are biased. if you in any way believe that, not considering equipment or buffs, someone can hunt "better" than others and hunting is about more than just next-target and autoshooting (see difference in imk2 logs), you probably wouldn't give a dime for any other logs, experiences or opinions.

i suggest you ask mindark, but to be honest, thats the stuff i believe the least :)

no economic interests on my side, but i like hunting taxed areas. now what, will you call me stupid? i couldn't care less...
 

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no economic interests on my side, but i like hunting taxed areas. now what, will you call me stupid? i couldn't care less...

I like hunting at LAs aswell, sadly many of them are no longer fertilized, so I don´t hunt there anymore as the spawns are as anoying as the untaxed ones :)
 

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No I didn't, If you pocket 25% of the tax it's gone from the table and not there for the hunters to win back. Not saying it's wrong to have a ROI on your investment, just saying that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I don't think everyone has an agenda but if you see many people without an economic interest getting a worse return and then ONE person that actually has an economic interest claims the exact oposite then I make a logical assumption nothing more. Honestly you don't see this?

I read what you said, we don't agreed, you have an economical agenda here and have the oposite result of everyone else I know playing. People deserve to know this. I don't have anything against you atomic and I can't recall that we argue on other things than this exact topic (that we have argued about many times in the past) and it has nothing to do with you as a person. I argued with smilgs on this topic aswell and called him out for the exact thing you are doing since he did run the osseos at the time. Once he did the tests with a public result it wasn't much to argue on anymore. Numbers speak for themselves.

He didn't provide any raw data sadly. His would be no more valid in your eyes than my data all things considered and it should cause you great pause if you know anything about percentages and statistics for it to be mysteriously exactly 10% (because it actually should NOT be).

You never bothered to ask me about the data.. nothing about the numbers.. just constant flaming and assertions that I am trying to fool people on EU, when in reality if you open your eyes, you would see I provide a lot of information to the public.. huge logs, tools for people to use, and some other things only my circle of friends know about. And you only see me as the opposite result but that is only because you want to only see me. Prophetzen down there has a different result. Angel, Lunchbox for example.. it's the same return regardless of tax (and they track now thanks to the tool I made to everyone).

Who is not to say that people can be different.. I highly doubt that I have been able to magically avoid tax.. maybe I was so bloody eco that everyone else was effectively paying for it -- and others. In the grand scheme of things, if there are no personal loot pools, no 90% or 95% returns, there are resource waves, etc.. then tax really only changes variance. If long term tax goes from 100% to 96-98% returns, then one of the previous assumptions has to be false and I would think that would be worth knowing.

We don't agree.. in the end my position is still the most important part.. I will restate it since we've gone on this stupid tangent since you still keep making offensive claims .... it is as follows:

My primary point is assume that you are paying the land owners for the experience.. whether it be events, markup of the mobs, just want to have some fun, decent spawns, or whatever. Keep it in mind, balance your bankroll, and win! Properly run LA can far more rewarding as all the sparse spawns across the universe. I for one pay out 75% of my revenue in event prizes and fertilizer costs (and I believe BIG does as well). Fertilizer to keep dense spawns is very expensive.
 

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I always assumed the tax came right out of your loot.

It is the most logical answer, if the LA has a 3% tax, it means exactly that, 3% tax on everything you loot/mine.

It certainly wouldn't be a tax on just MA's income (decay), cause I don't see MA taking a hit to their own income for LA owners.

Why would this even be a question :laugh:. I don't know how else a tax and how LA's owners get their money would make sense.
 

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I guess both side need start show some datas

Setup A not less or more need be exact same
Mob X even same maturity
Cycle B around 10k to 100k ped can give us idea

NO TAX vs TAX area ;) any other kind variance make test useless
but i want say my loot in no taxed area is big just check my avg loot in UG vs Hell vs Planetside

Have fun kids
 

theProphet

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I guess both side need start show some datas
Have fun kids

noone needs to show anything at all. do your own tests, then you don't fall for anyone's "agenda". to trust any stats but your own is the first mistake ...

we can agree that it's not possible for everyone to achieve 100% return, so some people will always have a good reason to whine, and the numbers to "prove" everyone they're right.

have fun too!
 

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In the meantime I was informed that an official statement actually exists, albeit a very old one. We'll see if it can be found.
 

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161,451.59 150,150.09 93.00% TT return - taxed hunting with 4-5% taxes since loot 2.0
97,546.14 90,522.81 92.80% TT return - untaxed hunting since loot 2.0 (migration mobs excluded)

I'm not convinced for one that I'm paying out 4-5% of my loot for taxes, as I have also cycled nearly the same amount of peds on untaxed for the same result.

You are free to come to your own conclusions.
 

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Thanks Obama!
 

Jhereg

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Imagine being in a shared loot team with the landowner that always takes 5% or other tax amount of the loot :p

But in all seriousness, in this case I think the most obvious and straight forward answer is probably the right one, which is your loot is split so the tax% goes to the land owner.
 
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Starkiller

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161,451.59 150,150.09 93.00% TT return - taxed hunting with 4-5% taxes since loot 2.0
97,546.14 90,522.81 92.80% TT return - untaxed hunting since loot 2.0 (migration mobs excluded)

I'm not convinced for one that I'm paying out 4-5% of my loot for taxes, as I have also cycled nearly the same amount of peds on untaxed for the same result.

You are free to come to your own conclusions.

You are paying 4-5% for taxes... HOWEVER, due to all the variable that revolve around hunting, you don't necessarily notice it and in truth, which is what Atomicstorm is saying... And nobody here, unless they know the exact formula for the loot mob event, that calculates the loot you get per mob, can give any conclusive data on any of the answers here.

So as Prophet Zen said, just have fun and do your thing! It's a bloody game.

Here is a quick example of what I was saying: (couldn't find a more "official" link)

"http://www.entropiadirectory.com/wiki/Amethera" said:
History

Original Announcement from MindArk regarding Amethera

A new continent has been discovered on the planet Calypso!
The continent is vast, about three times larger than the presently available continent.

In the same manner as back in the wild west era in the United States,
Project Entropia participants will be given the opportunity to participate in this epic land grab event!

Virtually all the land on the continent will be up for grabs in time.
Land areas vary in size up to the maximum, which is about 1000 acres.
The land is pristine and untamed, and you can not count on staying safe in any area of the new continent.

Get yourself prepared, because if the various new monsters and robots don’t get you,
your fellow participants probably will!

The stakes are high. As the owner of a piece of land a society will be able to collect a fee from any hunter,
miner or other resource gatherer active on their land.
The fees may be set individually, in the range 0 to 10%, according to the will of the owning society.
All revenue generated from the society-owned land will automatically be distributed between the society members.

The land owning societies will also in a later stage be given the opportunity
to sell house-building lots to any Project Entropia participant.
The lots available for sale will vary in number and size depending in the size of the land owned by the society.
This is from a time before planet partners and stuff, so this is how the system worked and I assume still does. Interpret as you wish.


As for LA owners knowing something and have NDAs and stuff.... That's like saying ModFappers have an NDA or ImkII owners have NDAs about hunting and stuff like that... It's a purchase... that is about it when it comes to the relationship we have with MA... In fact some people might even have more affiliations with MA, while owning nothing or whatever than you think!


Now as for the rest of this thread, all I have to say is there is a lot of hypocritical nonsense going around... I am trying to find evidence of what im saying, and I know they explained may years ago how "Amethera" would be the landgrab continent and loot there would be higher than on Eudoria, within Land Area borders. I am having a hard time finding it though.


This was the main selling point for Amethera, and it came up with a discussion over something like "why kill an atrox inside a taxed area, when theres untaxed atrox in Fort Ithaca?" kinda thing... Now! If instead of being asshats and arguing over nothing, maybe once, just once! Be helpful and do try and help find this information, so we can all rest our heads... This forum used to be a lot more helpful than nowadays, that's for sure.


Sorry for the rant, but I just couldn't help myself.




P.S.: Also found this while at it.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?29969-Dude-where-s-my-PED

Take the time to read some of the replies and even the opening post, and maybe you'll get some ideas in. You will find me scrounging the internet about this issue.
 

Eli

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Elissia Eli Talor
So as Prophet Zen said, just have fun and do your thing! It's a bloody game.

Yeah, you lost me on this bit. Telling people who have questions about how their real money is being spent that they should stop caring and just have fun is hardly an argument. Like restaurants that don't write prices on their menus. Yeah no.
 

mastermesh

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in other words... don't hunt on LAs unless you are hunting mob types or maturities that you can't find off of the LA... ;)

(or alternatively you are too darn lazy to go find the other mobs off of the LA like some of us are)

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now about taxes...

I personally believe that most posting here are correct and LA taxes get cut out of your loot directly when you hunt on the LA...

but someone mentioned old quotes... so feel the need to mention this:

not really too helpful to the subject at hand (hunting tax), but might potentially have something to do with it a little since Shop taxes work a little similarly to hunting taxes... at least in theory... (i.e. every shop purchase gets a little tax added to it just like every hunting loot on LA likely takes a small cut in the taxes)

below quotes are a bit perplexing since they saying alternative thing, at least that's how I interpret them:


When I tried to ask support about who gets the taxes on shops where no participant owns the LA that the shop is on, such as at Omegaton, etc. the response was:
Hi,

Thank you for your patience regarding this issue. Please accept my apology for the delayed reply.

I have been informed that in such cases MindArk and / or Planet Calypso are the owners in such cases and therefore receive the tax fees.
Kind regards,

so basically, imho Marco had no idea what the hell he was talking about when he was saying that the auction fees go back to community, unless perhaps that is how old Project Entropia worked, not Entropia Universe, the Platform, with Planet Partners, etc.

The minimum shop tax fee is 2 pecs, which is why they don't allow shops to price below +1 ped... so basically any shop sale is 102% at minimum with 2 percent of that going to the taxes... I suspect that in ancient days that was done since the current system, that allows fractional portions of pecs to exist in loot, etc. didn't exist so much back then, so back then the idea was to have PP make 1 pec off of each sale on shop sales, and MA to make 1 pec off of the same sale...

with LA taxes I think minimum is 103%... so could be 1 percent to PP, 1 percent to MA and 1 percent to LA owner, but suspect that the way that the wording is that it's all going to the LA owner?... and there's no real way to test that difference that I can think of... add in junk like the CLD portion that PP would normally get and the calculations probably get even more convoluted (even though Mindark gets audited, or so they say... doubt those audits dig this far in to this type of topic)
 
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mastermesh

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Yeah, you lost me on this bit. Telling people who have questions about how their real money is being spent that they should stop caring and just have fun is hardly an argument. Like restaurants that don't write prices on their menus. Yeah no.
If what's on the menu at the restaurant is something you want, and it's too much hassle to find it elsewhere or make it yourself, you don't give a damn about the price... which is whythe restaurant industry exists, honestly...
 
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