FYI: How Loot Returns Work as Function of Looter Level and Efficiency, Based on Actual Data, as of March 3rd, 2022

[Kaiser]

Thank you for your work. I returned to the game in May of 2020. Since then I have more than doubled my total skills and and almost doubled my hp. To do this I cycled roughly 8M PED hunting 80-100 hours a week having read Messi's story. I mean I have seriously been doing presentations to my board of directors while hunting, I have been that committed.

I have most definitely experienced what you are describing and my findings match yours almost exactly. In terms of animal looter I went from 23 animal to 67 over that time.

I keep a stable of five mobs I've cycled 90% of that money on. The increase in average loot over 20 months has been almost exactly linear when you remove the outliers and track it against animal looter increases.

One thing I have noticed when I add outlier loot back in is that over that period my tt return was near 100% (97.x%). When I remove the outliers it drops to roughly 93.5%.

The interesting thing is I TT almost everything (80%) I loot. So my numbers are representative of mostly no MU returns (TT). The short version is I'm a hit hunter as opposed to profit hunter. Because of my huge cycle I get rare loots and Ubers which compensate for my lack of markup. Do I find myself down 30-40k in a month sometimes? Sure I do. But I also find myself up that much too in certain months. For instance in September I lost 19K. From October first to 12-31, I ended up profiting 37K for a net gain of roughly 18K. The faith enters in that equation by keeping me shooting trusting the law of averages applies to everything.

Now add in smart equipment purchasing and rare item loots and over my lifetime (born 10-5-2005) my return is right about 112%.

I was wondering if I was alone in my findings. Thanks to you and your work now I know I'm not.

 

[minim]

Does higher looter profession keep shrapnel to non-shrapnel ratio the same?
I have a funny feeling that looter professions does increase TT return in a weird way such as getting more "bonus shrapnel" instead of actual good loot.
Also minimum/maximum multiplier is not that robust, I'd suggest 25%-75% range for future tests.

It’s not tested here but my observations with just comparing with friends (low accuracy on the numbers) tells me that dpp is what decides this just as stated by ma.

before looter levels were ever introduced MA had stated the mean return for avatars created on/after 2016 was 97% - this was in 2018, so it's really a moot point. looter levels only seem to matter if your efficiency sucks ass, but still appear to give you a boost when your looter levels surpass efficiency, such is the case with many 80+ eff weapon users getting worse returns at lower looter levels than their 100+ looter counterparts, but still falling around the 98% mark.

Looter levels are entirely unnecessary to play the game, or crucial, depending on how you play the game. looter levels are the get out of jail free card if you play like a complete idiot.

we did record a similar result with looter lvl where both the bad and the good efficiency was higher than looter. So looter lvl played the same part no matter what efficiency was used.

 

[M Rufen Power]

To OP: Thank you for the post, but nothing new I already did not know about; your assertions kind of match mine.
I find it laughable people can claim 86% is the base return whilst hypocritically asking me where I get 90% from?

 

[M Rufen Power]

As a new player it is obviously futile being a hunter. Low level looter is a HUGE handicap. I will just invest in deeds and let others lose money playing.

I wouldn't say that is totally accurate or a lost cause as you're competing in the same realm as those who are hunting the same mobs as you. That is what keeps it even whilst competitive; who are those hunting the same mob as you will determine how the loot will get distributed, DPP, EFF, looter etc.

So, when Mindark introduced the looter profession they lowered the base return rate and made returns worse for new players? To my beginner eye it looks like the game was more balanced and fair to new and mid level players when only weapon eff was taken into account and 1-2% was the difference between most players.

Again, I wouldn't say for that to be the case, more like when Looter professions got introduced, they silently nerfed the efficiency scale. If anything, MA has given everyone at any level a chance now to get stable returns as it's no longer efficiency dependant, so this was an excellent idea, not a negative one.

Thanks for the reply bonnie. Yes, what you say makes sense. But the cost to get to a position to break even in hunting is extreme to my rough calculations (expensive weapon and looter profession). I'll focus on deed investments and crafting from now on. Thankyou to Zho for saving me some deposits. Hunting looks like the "sucker" profession to keep everyone else in profit.

Again, you have a very pessimistic outlook on the situation, hunting isn't complicated, and you don't have to lose so much TT% to even bother. My data does not even correlate to the data presented in OP. I am 65.2% Eff / Lv22 Looter = 92% TT? Yet I have a net return of 97-98%, figures! Learn to test things.

You can make it work as a new hunter. It does however take a bit of work. Then again, if you can´t make it work for the early levels there´s no way you´ll make it through mid-levels with your credit card intact

A new hunter can still make it work, but it does take a bit of work to get going; I totally agree! If you can't even profit on a low-level scale, you will never be able to scale that through mid or high-level hunting, learn the craft from the ground up, and you will see wonders you never thought possible.

I also recommend going high eff if you can and are going to grind looter up, a lot of ped are saved during skill up if you can do it at higher efficiency.
Basically try to get looter up in level as cheaply as you can.

I actually recommend people go the economy enhancer route at the highest tier possible; forget high EFF weps; they are way overpriced and too hyped.

There is no way to 'make it work for you' when you are at 93% tt return. Surely the odds shouldnt be so stacked against new players.

See the above comment; get the highest eff setup you can afford; I'd focus on the economy enhancers route whilst using low use/min items.

before looter levels were ever introduced MA had stated the mean return for avatars created on/after 2016 was 97% - this was in 2018, so it's really a moot point. looter levels only seem to matter if your efficiency sucks ass, but still appear to give you a boost when your looter levels surpass efficiency, such is the case with many 80+ eff weapon users getting worse returns at lower looter levels than their 100+ looter counterparts, but still falling around the 98% mark. Looter levels are entirely unnecessary to play the game, or crucial, depending on how you play the game looter levels are the get out of jail free card if you play like a complete idiot.

So the moral of the story is to play as best as you can for the least amount of ped as you can per kill, removing unnecessary costs, mu and no dmg decay.

 

[Jhereg]

I actually recommend people go the economy enhancer route at the highest tier possible; forget high EFF weps; they are way overpriced and too hyped.

Hi M Rufen Power,

Economy enhancers improve damage per pec (-1% per enhancer slot), but does not do anything for efficiency. Therefore, if you are looking to improve tt return %, economy enhancers would have no effect. It nets you more kills per ped but at the cost of MU of the enhancers.

 

[Jhereg]

See the above comment; get the highest eff setup you can afford; I'd focus on the economy enhancers route whilst using low use/min items.

It used to be true that slower attack speed (but higher damage) weapons would produce more value per enhancer used. (You can get more damage out of a single weapon damage enhancer, for example). This was when enhancer break rate could be traced directly to the weapon level...

However, the last enhancer update changed this, and made enhancer break rate depend on the amount of benefits given. So this is no longer the case.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Hi M Rufen Power,

Economy enhancers improve damage per pec (-1% per enhancer slot), but does not do anything for efficiency. Therefore, if you are looking to improve tt return %, economy enhancers would have no effect. It nets you more kills per ped but at the cost of MU of the enhancers.

That’s exactly want you want to happen. More kills per ped spent means more chances for a higher loot multiplier. A lot of people don’t know this, codex is not only based on TT Input but it is also based on kills. If cost to kill is cheaper than the cycle required for that stage you get more skills for your buck. The cost of the enhancer is moot if it can help me go from 95% TT, and closer to 98% TT. What would an increase of 3% be worth to you? You do the maths, Sherlock, cause I don’t make comments for no reason.

 

[Jhereg]

That’s exactly want you want to happen. More kills per ped spent means more chances for a higher loot multiplier. A lot of people don’t know this, codex is not only based on TT Input but it is also based on kills. If cost to kill is cheaper than the cycle requiredfor that stage you get more skills for your buck. The cost of the enhancer is moot if it can help me go from 95% TT, and closer to 98% TT. What would an increase of 3% be worth to you? You do the maths, Sherlock, cause I don’t make comments for no reason.

Codex is purely based on tt cycle...

If you reduce kill cost you also reduce the cost the multiplier gets multiplied by.

Your 'chance' to hit a certain multiplier doesn't go up per mob, you are just killing more mobs. In the end you end up at the same tt return %. You might reduce some volatility but that's it.

 

[M Rufen Power]

It used to be true that slower attack speed (but higher damage) weapons would produce more value per enhancer used. (You can get more damage out of a single weapon damage enhancer, for example). This was when enhancer break rate could be traced directly to the weapon level...

However, the last enhancer update changed this, and made enhancer break rate depend on the amount of benefits given. So this is no longer the case.

I think you have literally just contradicted, yourself here. Anyone else see anything wrong with this statement? See BOLD text. Maybe you are correct when mentioning damage enhancers but I was originally talking about economy enhancers, right? The avg MU is around 100.10% on rifles vs 100.60% for pistols. I have run multiple tests on this with multiple people. Try to see things beyond the items description and more for their utility vs loot system. Not everything is as labelled, hence this thread, right?

 

[M Rufen Power]

Codex is purely based on tt cycle...

If you reduce kill cost, you also reduce the cost the multiplier gets multiplied by.

Your 'chance' to hit a specific multiplier doesn't go up per mob, you are just killing more mobs. In the end you end up at the same tt return %. You might reduce some volatility but that's it.

Codex is based on TT? Then prove it matey. I can factually tell you I got through the whole Exa codex whilst spending approximated 700 PED less than my peers.

Multipliers values are reduced because of cheaper kills, okay. But that doesn’t rule out a x1000 multiplier does it? Maybe you need to rethink your dogma a little. Sure the chance is rare to get a x1000 or even a x100 but there is still a chance, and as long as you are the better hunter on the same mob, the odds are more in your favour.

So if all it does as you say is decrease volatility, how am I above in terms of TT returns from your supposed 92% to my 98%, care to explain that one please?

 

[Jhereg]

I think you have literally just contradicted, yourself here. Anyone else see anything wrong with this statement? See BOLD text. Maybe you are correct when mentioning damage enhancers but I was originally talking about economy enhancers, right? The avg MU is around 100.10% on rifles vs 100.60% for pistols. I have run multiple tests on this with multiple people. Try to see things beyond the items description and more for their utility vs loot system. Not everything is as labelled, hence this thread, right?

I don't see how I contradicted myself at all. Enhancer breakage rate used to be tied to weapon level (tested on damage and accuracy enhancers) prior to the enhancer breakage rate change most recently. Therefore, you can get similar number of uses on simiar dps weapons but have a slower weapon be able to apply more damage and therefore it will last longer.

Now, it is scaled based on dps and cycle. You get a certain amount of damage and cycle rate increase boost.

I'll admit I've never run testing on eco enhancers, but I expect the impact to be based on cycle rate as well. If you have any data I'd be happy to see it. Given the breakage rate of eco enhancers ( I believe it is more than 10k uses now) and the probabilistic nature of how they break, you would need maybe 300-600 enhancers broken to get to the correct breakage rate.

 

[Jhereg]

Codex is based on TT? Then prove it matey. I can factually tell you I got through the whole Exa codex whilst spending approximated 700 PED less than my peers.

Multipliers values are reduced because of cheaper kills, okay. But that doesn’t rule out a x1000 multiplier does it? Maybe you need to rethink your dogma a little. Sure the chance is rare to get a x1000 or even a x100 but there is still a chance, and as long as you are the better hunter on the same mob, the odds are more in your favour.

Codex progression based on TT is well known and already been studied, do a search on PCF.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with the second statement...

 

[miathan]

Codex is based on TT? Then prove it matey. I can factually tell you I got through the whole Exa codex whilst spending approximated 700 PED less than my peers.

Multipliers values are reduced because of cheaper kills, okay. But that doesn’t rule out a x1000 multiplier does it? Maybe you need to rethink your dogma a little. Sure the chance is rare to get a x1000 or even a x100 but there is still a chance, and as long as you are the better hunter on the same mob, the odds are more in your favour.

So if all it does as you say is decrease volatility, how am I above in terms of TT returns from your supposed 92% to my 98%, care to explain that one please?

Codex ped cost and rank rewards

Codex ped cost and rank rewards Ped cost per rank Mob V / Rank >,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19 Aetherex,75,150,225,300,450,600,750,900,1050,1200,1350,1500,1800,2100,2400,2700,3000,3300,3600 Allophyl,62.5,125,187.5,250,375,500,625,750,875,1000,1125,1250,1500,1750,2000,2250,2500,...

docs.google.com

Have been spot on for me each time I tested against it. I have 250 meta ranks so have tested a few

(It's not my document, I don't remember who made it)

 

[Jhereg]

Codex is based on TT? Then prove it matey. I can factually tell you I got through the whole Exa codex whilst spending approximated 700 PED less than my peers.

Multipliers values are reduced because of cheaper kills, okay. But that doesn’t rule out a x1000 multiplier does it? Maybe you need to rethink your dogma a little. Sure the chance is rare to get a x1000 or even a x100 but there is still a chance, and as long as you are the better hunter on the same mob, the odds are more in your favour.

So if all it does as you say is decrease volatility, how am I above in terms of TT returns from your supposed 92% to my 98%, care to explain that one please?

Whenever someone tells me...well my tt returns are so much better/worse than expected, clearly you are wrong, I like to post this graph...

You can ignore the blue and red moving average lines. Basically, the blue points represent tt% return for a particular 100k amount cycled. As you see, even with 100k cycled, I'm still having variations of more than 5% tt return between sets of 100k cycled (represents my volatility). Without knowing what you hunted and how much, my guess is you got a few very nice hits and that has held your tt average afloat, for now.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Codex progression based on TT is well known and already been studied, do a search on PCF. I have no idea what you are trying to say with The second statement.

Then what is the TT amount based on, in order to clear the stage, what determines that process?

Hitting any multiplier that is above average will incrementally increase your TT returns over time. With enough kills this can lead to more multipliers to positively affect your returns. You won’t end up at the same TT%, I’ve already stated your theory doesn’t match my own criterias. Because the multipliers aren’t dependent of yourself but based on player participation. This is how TT positive runs can be achieved, drawing funds from previous or current active participants hunting the same mob.

As a seasoned player you should already know this is how the system operates.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Codex ped cost and rank rewards

Codex ped cost and rank rewards Ped cost per rank Mob V / Rank >,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19 Aetherex,75,150,225,300,450,600,750,900,1050,1200,1350,1500,1800,2100,2400,2700,3000,3300,3600 Allophyl,62.5,125,187.5,250,375,500,625,750,875,1000,1125,1250,1500,1750,2000,2250,2500,...

docs.google.com

Have been spot on for me each time I tested against it. I have 250 meta ranks so have tested a few

(It's not my document, I don't remember who made it)

Thanks, but I have my own version which is more accurate than that one but I somehow got to Rank 25 by spending less peds than is required to pass each stage.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Whenever someone tells me...well my tt returns are so much better/worse than expected, clearly you are wrong, I like to post this graph...

You can ignore the blue and red moving average lines. Basically, the blue points represent tt% return for a particular 100k amount cycled. As you see, even with 100k cycled, I'm still having variations of more than 5% tt return between sets of 100k cycled (represents my volatility). Without knowing what you hunted and how much, my guess is you got a few very nice hits and that has held your tt average afloat, for now.

Fair enough. I’ll see if I notice any deviations.

 

[jetsina]

The TT meant here is the TT COST, not returns of any kind... all the codex levels are multiples of the cost of the first level for whatever mob.
It's been solid enough for me to now know my costs based on codex percentage gains...

 

[M Rufen Power]

The TT meant here is the TT COST, not returns of any kind... all the codex levels aremultiples of the cost of the first level for whatever mob

Ok, I understand that. So if my cost to kill in stage 1 is 15% lower than most other hunters, that carries on towards the other later stages? If that’s true, it’s very interesting for me to know, thank you.

 

[jetsina]

erm. nope. You might kill a last mob that takes you a bit into the next level, but that effect wears off as you go up.
The reward is also set at 0.5% of the cost to kill per level for the basic rewards you usually get, so you can also see from the potential reward what a level should cost. It has worked fine for me doing this.
Where do you see what other hunters are claiming as their costs? I'm not clear on that bit.

 

[MikeH]

Ok, I understand that. So if my cost to kill in stage 1 is 15% lower than most other hunters, that carries on towards the other later stages? If that’s true, it’s very interesting for me to know, thank you.

If it cost 100ped to finish one rank for others it will cost 100 ped for you too .

 

[Starkiller]

If it cost 100ped to finish one rank for others it will cost 100 ped for you too .

Unless he is the chosen one!

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx1-UkvmiYbqDoNhOOt2KstJ_UImncuuRQ
Placed the whole video below cause the forum doesn't like the new youtube clip feature.

 

[John B Knight]

Well done Zho and respect for putting this detailed analysis of multipliers together.
I would however like to point out that just like those who look at each loot they get, looking at the multipliers is only the second layer - you can hit a nice multiplier on a mob that you killed with a single crit and minimum cost just like you can hit a bad multiplier on a mob that evaded you ten times in a row.
You can also only loot from mobs/in areas what others including you have lost there before.
Looking at the spread of multipliers in the short and mid term can only tell you a tendancy in which direction the system supports your baseline, it doesnt tell you anything about wwhat the other hunters in your area on your mob type are hitting, how much they leave or take and how that affects you.
Early on this year i managed to cycle about 500k ped with a 7% efficiency weapon while having over 100% tt return, going to the million ped cycle i was down to 97% over this 1 million. Returns are very much amplified with such low efficiency and extremely bad dpp and it puts pressure on your average tt return in the midterm - i had to cycle another million ped to see my TT return climbing back to where they should be/had been while still being out quite some of what i dropped using the loweff/dpp weapon before.
You dont see it in multiplier analysis or short term loot analysis but there is an average return modifier that slowly 'shifts' over time - something that decides when your good multi hits an expensive mob when you are 'due'/'qualified' and in a better overall 'position' then the other 5 hunters next to you.
Also when looking at return tables depending on efficiency lets not forget that the efficiency is not an overall modifier it is an inherent attribute of the weapon you use, this means it can only impact the ped you turn over with said weapon, it can not influence the returns of your armor decay, your fap decay, your inefficiency of killing a high regen mob in less then the optimal time (this would be were dps/dpp provide a direct improvement).
Even with a high efficiency weapon you can be facing mobs that evade you again and again, high dpp/crit chance/crit dmg directly counter this impact in the long run averaging out the bad with the good.

 

[warmdogg]

Codex is based on TT? Then prove it matey. I can factually tell you I got through the whole Exa codex whilst spending approximated 700 PED less than my peers.

Based on TT cycled not TT returned…

 

[jetsina]

... I checked exa codex and the figure I would personally trust is a total spend stage 1-25 of 5175 peds. The suggestion of it costing approx. 700 peds less is about 13.5% lower cost, which is well outside what I could conceivably see as tolerances.
As I said, for me when I tested, the stages were always close enough to what I expected to not really need to individually add up ammo+weap decay+heal+armour decay any more, but I did still compare often just to make sure. It was more like having a second way of getting to the same answer, thus reducing the chance of mistakes.

 

[minim]

... I checked exa codex and the figure I would personally trust is a total spend stage 1-25 of 5175 peds. The suggestion of it costing approx. 700 peds less is about 13.5% lower cost, which is well outside what I could conceivably see as tolerances.
As I said, for me when I tested, the stages were always close enough to what I expected to not really need to individually add up ammo+weap decay+heal+armour decay any more, but I did still compare often just to make sure. It was more like having a second way of getting to the same answer, thus reducing the chance of mistakes.

Sounds more like someone using a loot tracker setup wrong or not including all expenses. The error is just to big.

 

[Joat]

Hi M Rufen Power,

Economy enhancers improve damage per pec (-1% per enhancer slot), but does not do anything for efficiency. Therefore, if you are looking to improve tt return %, economy enhancers would have no effect. It nets you more kills per ped but at the cost of MU of the enhancers.

Unless you have an amp on, then you can have better efficiency value when using eco enhancers, but if it realy works, I'm not sure there.

 

[Msturlese]

Codex is simple.... 0.5% of Spending comes back in skills (normal tier)
some correction in multipliers come off for Kind 2 and Kind 3 (reduced because more "important"

so... 1000 Ped kill cost = 5 Ped Skills.

 

[atomicstorm]

Well done Zho and respect for putting this detailed analysis of multipliers together.
I would however like to point out that just like those who look at each loot they get, looking at the multipliers is only the second layer - you can hit a nice multiplier on a mob that you killed with a single crit and minimum cost just like you can hit a bad multiplier on a mob that evaded you ten times in a row.
You can also only loot from mobs/in areas what others including you have lost there before.
Looking at the spread of multipliers in the short and mid term can only tell you a tendancy in which direction the system supports your baseline, it doesnt tell you anything about wwhat the other hunters in your area on your mob type are hitting, how much they leave or take and how that affects you.
Early on this year i managed to cycle about 500k ped with a 7% efficiency weapon while having over 100% tt return, going to the million ped cycle i was down to 97% over this 1 million. Returns are very much amplified with such low efficiency and extremely bad dpp and it puts pressure on your average tt return in the midterm - i had to cycle another million ped to see my TT return climbing back to where they should be/had been while still being out quite some of what i dropped using the loweff/dpp weapon before.
You dont see it in multiplier analysis or short term loot analysis but there is an average return modifier that slowly 'shifts' over time - something that decides when your good multi hits an expensive mob when you are 'due'/'qualified' and in a better overall 'position' then the other 5 hunters next to you.
Also when looking at return tables depending on efficiency lets not forget that the efficiency is not an overall modifier it is an inherent attribute of the weapon you use, this means it can only impact the ped you turn over with said weapon, it can not influence the returns of your armor decay, your fap decay, your inefficiency of killing a high regen mob in less then the optimal time (this would be were dps/dpp provide a direct improvement).
Even with a high efficiency weapon you can be facing mobs that evade you again and again, high dpp/crit chance/crit dmg directly counter this impact in the long run averaging out the bad with the good.

This is but several of the many factors omitted from the OP.

One should not oversimplify important points.

 

[atomicstorm]

I believe 'MeLoveYou LongTime FiveDolla' has previously posted (his hunt log thread page 5) he knew how the looter profession works and 'may' publish the data. Not sure if he did, but I guess his data contradicts what you posted.

Hello Don. I have never stated I would publish the data. Because I wouldn't. There are a few people that I "trust" within the community for which I have shared these findings with and collaborated on the results. They can freely corroborate the story here if they desire, but no obligation to do so. I have periodically published data, findings, or written long articles for the community when I have found it to be imperative - the bankroll management, the Arkadia instance scam/trap, the amp decay test, and the multitude of unmaxed and/or hunting logs. I no longer publish related information unless it is already in the public space. The level of information gathering and intel that I gather is not something I would freely share as there are a TON of people in this game that I would not want to benefit from it - and that list is growing.

This game at its heart is a PvP game. The phrase: don't teach the fishes - is very important here. Teach the fishes - and you become the suckerfish.