i had a funny idea about a lootable pvp change

[Alice]

Alice, you usually have some good ideas and I respect you as a thinker, but this idea is a terrible one, in my opinion.

Good luck out there.

which is ok, i dont expect all ppl to agree with me

 

[Brumle]

Alice --- you seem to forget that most pkérs also hunt/mine in the zone and also stores like the other miners/hunters.
so they also risk it.
so you want a pkér to have "100" ped risk to hunt a pkér who is hunting muluuk´f and has a storage in car so he risk nothing ?

with you idea a hunter/miner cant fire back until the pkér has attacked first ? (cuz he dont have 100 ped of stackables on him)

i think the only ppl who likes this idea is the "new" miners in there who dont want to risk anything but just want the good MU stuff.
you can go there and see that most of the "new" miners in zone is gone now that vehicles can be looted. just like the normal miners left pvp4 when vehicles came cuz it messed up everything.

its not that hard--- you are in charge of how much you wanna risk, you can just use the storage often.
before vehicles came most ppl went to storage when they had 15-30 ped of stuff on em (some ppl more) and its kinde the same now.. if you wont risk over 20 ped then visit the "real" storage often

 

[Alice]

Alice --- you seem to forget that most pkérs also hunt/mine in the zone and also stores like the other miners/hunters.
so they also risk it.
so you want a pkér to have "100" ped risk to hunt a pkér who is hunting muluuk´f and has a storage in car so he risk nothing ?

with you idea a hunter/miner cant fire back until the pkér has attacked first ? (cuz he dont have 100 ped of stackables on him)

i think the only ppl who likes this idea is the "new" miners in there who dont want to risk anything but just want the good MU stuff.
you can go there and see that most of the "new" miners in zone is gone now that vehicles can be looted. just like the normal miners left pvp4 when vehicles came cuz it messed up everything.

its not that hard--- you are in charge of how much you wanna risk, you can just use the storage often.
before vehicles came most ppl went to storage when they had 15-30 ped of stuff on em (some ppl more) and its kinde the same now.. if you wont risk over 20 ped then visit the "real" storage often

as i said, 100 ped was just a figure
the other suggestion was also to make it based on loot
e.g. you have 2 ped loot in inventory you can loot up to 2 ped
etc.

and it wouldnt hold them from shooting back, just from looting
but since they are miners, they could have some peds with them anyway

yet again, its not just about pvp 4 and 100 ped was just an example

 

[tayra]

My thoughts - I hate PVP, I hate that all space is PVP, I hate that it is crippling trade between planets.

I love the fact that PK'ers will only have themselves to PK, because no-one will try and trade through lootable space.
Yes they may get an occassional traveler or tourist, but most wont bring lootable goods with them.

Go ahead , waste your ammo and get all high and mighty about how much it costs you to PK someone. No-one really cares what you think other than other PKers. If it really cost you that much to PK without reward then you are an idiot for doing it to start with, Im quite sure you make a reasonable profit or you wouldnt bother spending all that time and ped to do it.

If its the thrill of the kill you are after, with a potential reward, then why shouldnt you PK others in a set zone - all of whom have paid a fee to participate, winner take all. Sounds like much more fun to me, and I bet normal non-PKers would even participate.

BTW Space PKers names are already being spread around as people NOT to buy from, you may have a hard time selling your PKed goods in which case you may have to take them to another planet to sell them - Now that will make you juicy target for other PKers. Good Luck.

 

[AL Killmore]

...this doesnt put the miner saver in any way (as he usually wont fight)
it wont get the hunter saver in any way (same)
however, the pkers (who are, as we already learned, are all about thrill and risk) may become a target to -now the punchline- other pkers as well!....

At first, I felt crushed under the wall of text. Then I actually read it...
It's obvious that you're not a PK. Extremely obvious.
You get it all so wrong. I'll try to explain:

1) PK's motivation.
No sir. A PK is not in PvP4 for the risk. He's there for the hope. The hope that he'll find a fat miner and he'll take a good bounty with just some ammo wasted, thus - making a good profit. Most of the time that is a frustratingly empty hope tho.

2) PK targets.
Every GD is a target. With a crit you can kill even the biggest ubers and by the time you see their names it's usually too late to run. Your idea won't increase the number of PK's targets. It'll just increase his cost per dying. A lot. That'll actually decrease the number of people who do PvP in lootable zones, thus - making the zone safer for miners/hunters.

3) Equality.
Before entering PvP4, a PK spends on gear 3-4k ped (at least). His PK gear is so expensive in MU, that he can't use it for anything else because of the terrible eco. It's just ped thrown only for PvP.
Before entering PvP4, a miner just scratch a bit his OJ ass. Or gets a pitbull/VTOL (optional).
It's not 5 ped vs 5 ped, as you say.
It's actually 5 ped vs 3005 ped
(3000 ped is just a figure, you know. usually if your intentions are serious, the cost on gear is waaay higher)
Is that equal? No, sir - it's not.

So basicly, your idea gets to this:
Make PKs risk more! Because risking more is fun!
Eeerrr, is it really? Spoken by a man who doesn't go in PvP (obviously not his type of fun).
Your idea is based on assumptions. Assumptions that PKs are risk loving idiots/psychos. No, sir. They're not.

...pretty much any arguement brought by the ppl against this idea (prolly pkers) so far, can be turned in favour to this idea...

No, it can't. PKers don't like your idea for multiple reasons. REAL reasons, not assumptions.
Do a test: go in PvP4 with 100 ped of stackables multiple times for a week or two. Hunt some GDs. Die a bit (yeah, I know that by your assumptions miners don't have motivation to fight back, but I can pretty much assure you that you'll get a shot or two in your head). Then count your loses. Check out if it's really as fun and thrilling as you think...

 

[AL Killmore]

...If its the thrill of the kill you are after, with a potential reward, then why shouldnt you PK others in a set zone - all of whom have paid a fee to participate, winner take all. Sounds like much more fun to me, and I bet normal non-PKers would even participate...

Dude, there is such a zone. It's called PvP4/PvP3. People pay 5 ped to participate...

 

[tayra]

Dude, there is such a zone. It's called PvP4/PvP3. People pay 5 ped to participate...

And if you actually read what I wrote you would have seen that I was referring to SPACE PKERS only.

PVP3/4 is somewhere that can be avoided by any who dont which to take the risk, you can still get from one area to another without being "forced" to go through PVP.

Space however is another story, and the reason for my post.

 

[AL Killmore]

If space isn't a lootable PvP, that'll make all those fancy motherships and fighter jets pretty useless. People will just fly around in VTOLS without a care in the world. I believe that is exactly what you want but hey - that'll be too boring

IMHO, there're two types of people in this thread:
First: PKs who know their stuff and, of course, disagree with Alice's idea. 'Cause it's silly.
Second: People who don't PK and are all like "Make PKs suffer! Die PK! Die!!1" or the less emotional "May be interesting. I don't do PK and I won't do it in the future but yeah, lets make lootable PKing harder for the hell of it."
And then we have Alice who honestly thinks that his idea is good, without any PK experience to back it up... oh well.

But enough of this criticism. Here's an idea of my own:
How about a lootable oil from vehicles? Both miners/hunters and PKs use them so all sides of the conflict can benefit! If it's made foolproof - with a cap of the oil you can put in your tank - that can add some reason (loot) in all that PvP bashing. Especially in space, where everyone must have a vehicle (with some oil in it) to survive and travel.

 

[STYRM]

why is it that ppl who hate pvp always wanna go to pvp areas? is it something in their morning coffee maybe?

its so easy but there is always a few ppl who must complain about pvp and how evil it is.. well dont go to the area then.. and let those who have some guts play around in there..

I know that theres new planets to explore.. but if your on some kind of pvp boycot then you cant visit the new planets.. and that is all your choice..

 

[Luckycharm]

PK'ers in space will have to T or fly back after looting someone. There is a risk of at least 60 seconds to loose their "earnings" as well.

Even though the idea sounds somewhat interesting it also seems very unfair to people that have bought equipment and have skilled to follow a strategy of play eventually. Would mean the joy of a group of people could be reduced by it bigtime and the thrill of some decreasing or actually increasing depending which side they're on.

I've been looted sometimes too, usually by the same people lol and I was not amused. Especially when I got killed a while after I had TP'd away already. If I were to go to such zones to mine for example I would TP out after every decent sized loot, just like a PK'er would.

If I should choose to try my luck there one day I would like to have the same chance to loot somebody the same way I've been looted myself lol. Not that I enjoy PK btw, but defending someone and hitting a PK'er that just looted well would be nice if I had no lootables on me myself. We all can use tiered weapons and hermes isn't exactly pricey anymore either.

Only space can be an issue in case you want to move your home. Unless motherships with warpdrives will just *ploop* from one station to another without being lootable at any time. In that case people have a choice to take a risk and fly cheap or pay more to travel safely. That would be the same thrill miners take in lootable PvP and there would be nothing wrong with that I think.

 

[huju]

Atm most of the pk'ers is camping at 1st spacestations safezone and waiting that some one leaves to lootable pvp zone and then rushes after them to kill them.
Thats awesome!

Edit: Oh... and the fact that pk'ers need only ammo wich is not lootable and i should carry all my loot..?

 

[Pirx Danford]

why is it that ppl who hate pvp always wanna go to pvp areas? is it something in their morning coffee maybe?

its so easy but there is always a few ppl who must complain about pvp and how evil it is.. well dont go to the area then.. and let those who have some guts play around in there..

I know that theres new planets to explore.. but if your on some kind of pvp boycot then you cant visit the new planets.. and that is all your choice..

I could not have cared less about PvP 4 - I never had any desire to go there.

But of course I want to go into space, most of us will be sci fi nerds who love space ships, but also most don't like lootable PvP, so this unhappiness was really to be expected.

Actually most people that dislike lootable PvP will have no idea about what things are actually lootable, because why learn about something you don't want to bother with?
Now we have to learn about lootable stuff just to prevent losses.
Imagine being forced to go to school against your will... not fun.

So what I will do is wait until there is an easy means to check the inventory for lootables and then when I know how to travel risk free I even might do it sometime... maybe.

 

[aia]

why is it that ppl who hate pvp always wanna go to pvp areas? is it something in their morning coffee maybe?

On planets, lootable pvp is totally optional unless you are looking for specific resources.

Between planets, which where entire Eudoria on Calypso is pvp off by default and Arkadia where there is no pvp area, then you have to pass through lootable space - there is currently no option.

Ring in Twin peaks. I go there from time to time. I die alot. But I don't risk my stackables and revival is just by the entrance. I don't get decay on something (L) (ie my vehicle) unless I use something (L) into the ring - if I get decay in ring, unless I'm wearing armor I get skills from it.

In the ring, it's for fun. In lootable pvp it's serious business.

If I get killed at oil rig, I can use my TP-chip and be back in less than 20 seconds without paying more than ME usage/chip decay for which I get skills. No, I'm not at rig often, I take a look there sometimes as a "tourist". Again oil rig pvp area is optional - it's possible to run around it, to use a teleporter to jump from Ashi to Nymphtown or to use a bigger TP-chip to "jump over" the yellow zone.

Amethera between land areas is by default pvp, but not lootable pvp - so most normal players let others alone there because there is no gain in killing eachother. And if I get killed, I can either be back for "revenge" within 30 seconds using a TP-chip or just ignore it unless I have to pass through the area (for instance if on TP-run). In space there are no TP-chips, and as I seen it, unless MA enables it it won't work because you're either inside a vehicle (and then you can't equip items), or you're inside a spacestation (and then the "map" is local for that spacestation).

It's a difference between fun (as in the ring in twin peaks, or during fort events) where everyone is there completely on their free will, and bloody business when people who have has pk as profession chase people who have no reasonable option but passing through.

As for gearing up - someone said a pk:er has invested lots on PEDs in gear to hunt miners in pvp4. I have invested in a good TP-chip to be able to move around freely, and I've invested time in skilling up to use that chip. In VU9, there used to be a corner in the far N where I could mine lyst and oil for fun (and no mobs) and getting there I used my chip. Now there isn't such a remote corner anymore - all of amethera (nearly) is land areas, and the empty area has aggressive mobs (argonauts).

Regardless if space is lootable or not, professional pk.ers will have pvp3/pvp4 and Zoomhattan on Rocktropia so their investment won't be wasted.

As for using things with silly economy: Most high level players have shadow and such, which they can use for hunting big robots. If I want to hunt drone elites or trooper 10 (without dying alot), or even higher level legionairs, I have to use (L) armor. And if I want to use laser rifles at my level I will also need to pay that silly backup. So it's not only dedicated pk:ers who have to pay a lot - pretty much every mid level player who doesn't have that gear already have to. (With the exception of high tier guns which probably mainly are pk toys - but now weapons like repairable imk2s, foerippers, mod merc and v-rex 2000 SGA is catching up.)

Actually most people that dislike lootable PvP will have no idea about what things are actually lootable, because why learn about something you don't want to bother with?

Since support wouldn't answer, I had to go out in pvp4 myself to try it out:
Welding wire is lootable (in pvp4 at least for practical reasons not tried in space).
Time travel crystals is lootable (in pvp4 at least for practical reasons not tried in space).

 

[Alice]

1) PK's motivation.
No sir. A PK is not in PvP4 for the risk. He's there for the hope. The hope that he'll find a fat miner and he'll take a good bounty with just some ammo wasted, thus - making a good profit. Most of the time that is a frustratingly empty hope tho.

:O
i would have never guessed they after the peds!
from pretty much any pker i just hear (and read here in the thread yourself), its just for thrill and risk!
now thats quite something, who would have guessed you are after the peds!

actually, you didnt spot my sarcasm, nor read my personal opinion, where i pretty much said that pkers are after peds

2) PK targets.
Every GD is a target. With a crit you can kill even the biggest ubers and by the time you see their names it's usually too late to run. Your idea won't increase the number of PK's targets. It'll just increase his cost per dying. A lot. That'll actually decrease the number of people who do PvP in lootable zones, thus - making the zone safer for miners/hunters.

well, the cost for one person is the gain for another in this case
which you said pkers are after?
so you can get more peds this way

we also elaborated earlier, that the pvp4 zone is very very empty, you mostly find tumbleweeds and noone goes there at all (a pker said that i think)
and those few often are gone faster than you can notice them

now with some peds to loot on them, pkers may actually look for themselves too (yet again, 100 ped was just a figure)

3) Equality.
Before entering PvP4, a PK spends on gear 3-4k ped (at least). His PK gear is so expensive in MU, that he can't use it for anything else because of the terrible eco. It's just ped thrown only for PvP.
Before entering PvP4, a miner just scratch a bit his OJ ass. Or gets a pitbull/VTOL (optional).
It's not 5 ped vs 5 ped, as you say.
It's actually 5 ped vs 3005 ped
(3000 ped is just a figure, you know. usually if your intentions are serious, the cost on gear is waaay higher)
Is that equal? No, sir - it's not.

its just owned for pvp, thus, more pking would put it to more use, thus would make it more useful to have it
(as we already saw, very few ppl in pvp, so more people would make it more worthwhile)
also the pvp equipment, which is just to be used in pvp, isnt lootable afaik
thus, it can be sold again, prolly to other pkers, if it isnt in use anymore after the pking
the miner cant sell his loot he got looted from
->more risk

So basicly, your idea gets to this:
Make PKs risk more! Because risking more is fun!
Eeerrr, is it really? Spoken by a man who doesn't go in PvP (obviously not his type of fun).
Your idea is based on assumptions. Assumptions that PKs are risk loving idiots/psychos. No, sir. They're not.

what assumptions?
the assumption i did, is that stackables can be looted
i think thats pretty verified

i also made the assumption that pkers usually dont go with stackables into the zone
which would be, as statement from a likely pker in this thread, would be pretty stupid

i made the assumption that the miner can smack his finder on the head of the pker, dealing 0 damage, but lets say he kills him, loots -0-
i also made the assumption that the pker can kill the miner with his 3k and more peds worth pk gear and get his loot

i think, so far its all verified

now my idea was, if the pker wants to loot something, he should have something to back it up
for the sake of it, say 10 or 20 ped for pvp4, the 100 was just a figure as i said (could be less)

as you state yourself, pkers are after peds
as someone else stated, they barely get the cost back
so this could cover it (if you want a personal opinion, it is interesting that the big guns ppl suddenly shit their pants when they suddenly may become an interesting target)

No, it can't. PKers don't like your idea for multiple reasons. REAL reasons, not assumptions.
Do a test: go in PvP4 with 100 ped of stackables multiple times for a week or two. Hunt some GDs. Die a bit (yeah, I know that by your assumptions miners don't have motivation to fight back, but I can pretty much assure you that you'll get a shot or two in your head). Then count your loses. Check out if it's really as fun and thrilling as you think...

pkers dont like the idea because atm they are mostly after people who have mining finders to defend themselves
if they suddenly see inside some big gun it sucks, cause suddenly the sides are a bit flipped
besides, the say 10-20 ped could just be looted from you, if your killer would have that kind of money too
now how many miners go back after 5 ped blood moss, or do they all wait til they got 20 ped?

but its natural that the people who may suddenly get into the fireline this way dont like it
its all fun as long you got the big gun and not too much to fear
if that turns, its another story

sorry for writing so much again :=)

edit, sorry, forgot to say it, but it so fits, as you tend to hear it often

"if pvp is too dangerous for you, don't go there"

 

[mastermesh]

my proposal is basically this
anyone who want to loot someone else in pvp, must have say, 100 ped of lootable stuff in inventory
to make things a bit more spicy for them

Good idea, but I think you are not going far enough. Make it a minimum of 1k ped stackables in inventory then it'll be a high risk that will make it worth it.

Also make it so that the ship you are in has to have at least 80% of it's SI and TT value before you can attack anyone at any time.

Also make it so that the 'atackers' that are able to attack has some special logo floating on them or an glowing aura that is easily identified or something.

 

[AL Killmore]

...but its natural that the people who may suddenly get into the fireline this way dont like it
its all fun as long you got the big gun and not too much to fear
if that turns, its another story

sorry for writing so much again :=)
...

Apology accepted.

Then: You really don't get it.
Yes, PKs are after miners. But you never know if the GD on the end of the radar is really a miner or another PK. The PK is always into the fire-line. Only very very high level players don't have much to fear, especially if/when they hunt in packs.

Adding those 10-20-100 peds you're talking about won't change the situation not a bit. Only there will be more "big sharks" (in alliance with each other, so no increase of actual PvP there, much like the current situation in the Land Grabs) and less small fish (and that'll actually decrease the PvP activity even more).

Also: You say that miners will have motivation to shoot back. No. Smart miners teleport their ores in the storage with vehicles to decrease their risk. Even if they manage to kill a loaded PK (with 10-20-100 ped), they won't be able to loot him unless they got 10-20-100 ped of lootables themselves. And I believe you'll agree with me this time - the miner will be underdog in this fight. So how that improves the PvP4 situation for a smart miner? Not a bit.

You see - in practice, your idea means that for PvP in lootable zones both miners and PKs have to risk 10-20-100 ped more if they want to loot another player. It's absolutely the same as if the price of toxic shot is increased from 5 ped to 15-25-105 ped. If you don't accept that price - you won't be able to loot anyone, so why bother with selfdefence, right?

 

[huju]

PK'er needs to carry ammo wich aint lootable and hunter needs to carry his/hers loot from planet to planet when he/she is forced to use lootable pvp zone as travel route. PK'er drops nothing as loot and hunter drops all his loot, sounds fair imho.

EDIT: I voted "Splendit" this stuff is awesome for markups