i had a funny idea about a lootable pvp change

[SuperKanjo]

The PK profession has been nerfed over and over since VU10 came out. It is deader than a stupid miner. It does NOT need nerfing even more.

And this idea will spice things up again, you want to battle people, well give people a reason to battle PK'ers. I think it will improve PVP for both sides.

 

[Hijacker27]

And this idea will spice things up again, you want to battle people, well give people a reason to battle PK'ers. I think it will improve PVP for both sides.

Miners should battle PKers to defend their loot. What I've been trying to say is that miners and hunters get to profit off their mining and hunting in lootable zones all the time they're alone, while PKers just spend hours searching and spending mind essense and/or oil for their TP chips/vehicles. So say a miner and a PKer meet after two hours of being in the zone. The miner would have potentially profited hundreds of PED in markup over that time, while the PKers probably spent a few dozen PED in travel costs.

Now you're saying the miner and PK should both risk the same amount of loot at this meetup? One being up a few hundred PED and the other being down a few dozen.

 

[Brumle]

well if a pkér kills a miner with loot then the pkér have the loot in inv and are then risking it until he can get out ... just like miners.
it costs alot to kill ppl now that they all have vehicles so its hard for a pkér to profit now ...

and most pkérs are spending most of there time in the lootable areas hunting/mining so they are risking stuff too.
think most of the complaining comes from the miners/hunters who dont wanna invest in gear to survive but still wanna play in the lootable areas.

cant take those ppl serious.

i started as a miner in shogun in pvp4 a little over 1 years ago and bought gear to defend myself to play in there, so why cant other ppl do the same instead of complaining about being killed lol

 

[Alainax]

Bear i mind that you can travel around in space without havng a great deal of loot on you. Just some welding wire ( which is apparently going to get changed to non-lootable).

So unless you are doing some interplanitary trading, you wont have much to lose. If you are doign interplanitary trading, then thats the risk you will have to factor in to your profit margins.

Also, in space.... we are all remarkably similar. In Space we have the same gun and same protection as many many others. So it is about your ability to move and shoot, rather than how much equipment you have. (obivously this is only the case whilst there are alot of vtols and not so many quad-wings)

So a trader could have a space dog fight with a pk'r and be relativley closesly matched. This is where proper air comabt tactics will come into thier element. Which is to the benifit of either the traveler or the pk'r - depending on who has been practicing their barrel rolls, cork screws and loup de loups!!

Its also an expensive hobby, heavy blp n explosive pojectiles get used up super fast on the vtosl guns.

 

[SuperKanjo]

well if a pkér kills a miner with loot then the pkér have the loot in inv and are then risking it until he can get out ... just like miners.

The first thing most PK'ers do after a kill is TP out, not quitte the same risk.

and most pkérs are spending most of there time in the lootable areas hunting/mining so they are risking stuff too.

Because the most PK'ers (most, not all) don't have the balls to carry anything inside that zone, they go for the kill, empty their pockets and back in the zone.

think most of the complaining comes from the miners/hunters who dont wanna invest in gear to survive but still wanna play in the lootable areas.

cant take those ppl serious.

I don't want to because the risk isn't the same. Why should i invest 10k in gear to defend myself from an empty pocket PK'er. If there is a risk on both sides, that makes it interesting but ATM there is just almost no risk for the PK'er.

 

[Nooba]

The miner would have potentially profited hundreds of PED in markup over that time, while the PKers probably spent a few dozen PED in travel costs.

But don't you then take the miners profits for a cost of, as you say, a few dozen ped in travel costs?

Also if you mine too while you are in there, then you will meet the criteria anyway, so I have trouble seeing what the problem is?

 

[Rony]

Also, in space.... we are all remarkably similar. In Space we have the same gun and same protection as many many others. So it is about your ability to move and shoot, rather than how much equipment you have. (obivously this is only the case whilst there are alot of vtols and not so many quad-wings)
.

You are very right and you are very very wrong. What you dont take in account is that you lack the ability to scale your offensive force.

 

[Skullseige]

To help everyone understand this topic more clearly:

PVP zones:
Miners go to pvp zones to get high MU ores/enmatters.
Hunters go to pvp zones for the high MU items from mobs in pvp zones.
PKers go to pvp zones to try and loot from miners and hunter. In doing so PKers cause the ores/enmatters/items in pvp zones to increase in MU.
You take the PKers ability to PK out and the MU on items/ores/enmatters will go down.
An example of that is ingame right now: the MU of Himi and blood moss has decreased by almost 4x where it was at before vehicles came along.

Space:
A big PvP zone. Makes transporting huge amount of items, that sell for Low MU on one planet and high on another, much harder to do. Reason for this is to keep the economies of all planet separate. Ofc you still can do so and it should yield much profit but it would not be fair to others without giving that profit some risk, AKA PKers and space being pvp.

I have stated this before: The higher the risk the more profit in it. Without risk there should not be huge reward. If you can't handle the risk then don't do it.

MA knows vehicles broke PvP zones and are trying to fix it and I think space being a big pvp zone will help each planet and make other opportunities for the ones that are willing to take the risks for it.

 

[Rony]

Because the most PK'ers (most, not all) don't have the balls to carry anything inside that zone, they go for the kill, empty their pockets and back in the zone.

Can you explain to us the motivation one sane guy will carry anything inside lootable except weapons, armor, fap and ammo if hes not looking to mine or hunt?

 

[Hijacker27]

But don't you then take the miners profits for a cost of, as you say, a few dozen ped in travel costs?

Only if you actually loot them, which is a very rare occurance. And as alice is suggesting, that if you have to risk the exact same amount as them, they can take your 'wager' to ADD to their profit, making you have an even larger loss.

 

[Alainax]

You are very right and you are very very wrong. What you dont take in account is that you lack the ability to scale your offensive force.

Exactly, and this is where its going to get interesting, when teams can work together both offensively and defensively. It opens up so much potential, and is very exciting

I can imagine Squadrons of aircraft defending the traveling traders, getting set upon by an elite band of space pirates, epic space battles!

 

[Rony]

Exactly, and this is where its going to get interesting, when teams can work together both offensively and defensively. It opens up so much potential, and is very exciting

I can imagine Squadrons of aircraft defending the traveling traders, getting set upon by an elite band of space pirates, epic space battles!

Can you do it 24/7? Have you even tried? Just check my sig, you know what it means?

 

[Alainax]

Can you do it 24/7? Have you even tried? Just check my sig, you know what it means?

I think you have misunderstood me, but thats ok

 

[Rony]

I think you have misunderstood me, but thats ok

You misunderstood me, sorry to say, space is for pkers not for amateurs.

 

[Alainax]

You misunderstood me, sorry to say, space is for pkers not for amateurs.

lol ok ill elaborate.....

I disagreed with the idea of pk'rs being penalised, and brought up the point that both pk'rs are non pk'rs can be evenly matched in space.

You agreed but made the point that not very many out there will be able to scale a decent offensive force ( me included! but I was trying not to get personal here)


I agreed that this was a good point and going to open up the future for teams of defenders and pirates, and some great tactics will be developed. (still never mentioning that i personaly would be doing either!)



adn then you asked if i can do it 24/7?

So i presumed you mis-understood me - by presuming that i was talking about personal ambitions rather than space and its potential future.

And read my sig ive got a whole lot to learn, just taking it all in bit by bit

I hope that makes more sense

 

[PW3CKA]

Had to -rep Kanjo , no point in arguing with people like him.

He will forever live in an imagination of super duper, rich bastard PKer who just profit his ass off every day from poor miners and hunters. And that all without even sticking his nose into lootable PVP area..

Kanjo, would you borrow me your crystal ball ?

 

[Rony]

... blah blah..

Short answer:
No! you cant, we control 2 planets 24/7. My sig, and any time you will see that sig it will mean the same, reflects our group activity last months covering all calypso our lands and our allies lands. 5 points for one event. Can you claim that? No, you cant, I tell you right now cause we already went trough this. We were there whenever we got alerted in enough number to ensure our policy. You have no idea how many times I waked up at 3-4 AM to cover an alert! Match this or go elsewhere!

 

[aia]

It sux when people who never tried to hunt green dots down in PVP4 are complaining about lootable areas system.

If you are being looted , you are just bad and you should not go there... Its basically very, very hard to loot a GD.

PVP4 I can jump across with my TP-chip if I want to.

Also long time ago when I explored there I relied on my somewhat above-average agility (not true anymore) to run faster away from (well noob) pk:ers than they got closer to me (unless that had something like Tango or ML45).

Lootable pvp in space is no way to avoid if you want to get to another planet (with the exception of getting *back* from old CND and CP). And if I go into space with my vtol mk2 I know at least two other ships that's faster - ships I can't escape if they spot me on their radar.

I'm not trying to make PEDs travelling between planets as a big time trader - my deposit bills during the last months shold prove it. I just try to have fun (where fun in my case means I try not to take advantage of others). And, no, I have no means of depositing thousands of peds for becoming a top-level pk.er just for the purpose of travelling between planets.

 

[billairboy]

My suggestion to "spice up" the space pvp:

Each ship gets a home planet attached to it. To be able to attack a ship that is neuatral or good the pilot must pay a fee or buy a "Letter of margue" from a planet allowing it to attack ships from other planets, you can allways attack evil ships for free. Could look like something like this:

If i have a Arkadia ships, for a fee of 100 ped i will be allowed to attack 20 neautral/good ships from Calypso. When i have used up the 20 attacks i must pay a new fee.

The fees from the "pirates" goes to a bounty system, when you kill a "pirate" you get a reward from the bounty pool (the fees payed by the pirates). The bounty system is connected to a "most wanted pirate" depending of how many kills the ship have, a pirate with many kills gives you a higher reward. It would also be possible for players to "donate" money to the bounty system, so if you are mad on someone special you can donate some peds to the bounty for a specific player, makeing him "most wanted".



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_marque

 

[Dan59]

@Alice
Kim as traditionaly all MA talk about risk of only one side of pvp participants - risk for victims and fun for pkers.
Karma cud be good sollution.
Every pker who get certain numbers bad karma points loose his weichle wich will go to MA to put it in auction.
So income for MA and risk for pker.
To lower bad karma points pker shud defend others and kill other pkers for certain time- defending and collecting good points.

 

[Alice]

And PKers usually don't fight each other because you're just wasting ammo, and nobody wins in the long run.

if they all had to carry something to loot, maybe they would fight eachother, no?

Can you explain to us the motivation one sane guy will carry anything inside lootable except weapons, armor, fap and ammo if hes not looking to mine or hunt?

exactly

so what does anyone have from trying to kill a pker, even if he is successful
nothing
what does a pker have from killing some miner or hunter? his loot
and thats, as already said, one sided


also to the point where it protects miners or hunters
it doesnt at all, they can still be killed with their loot-if the pker had some stackables himself to back it up
so they could still be looted and the markup would be kept down
actually they would get more targets, other pkers and not just drive through the (obviously) very empty zone and wasting tp and fuel cost while they dont get any targets
of course, they would become a target themselves now, which would add to the thrill and the risk, no?

and those guys couldnt loot a pker (prolly they dont want to anyway) unless they got 100 ped of stuff with them
thus, the markup of the pvp resources would stay the same (ppl can still be shot)
so the only other force who would prolly attack a pker, is another one
and thats what the thing is about, no?

 

[Atraie]

Rather then making it be 100 ped or a flat fee. Make it you can only loot what you carry. Equal risk!

You want to loot 100 ped from someone, then you carry 100 ped. Want to loot 1000 ped, then you carry 1000 ped etc.

I still think lootable pvp in a RCE is completely wrong on every level. But at least some equal risk would be nice.

-----------

How pvp should work in a RCE should be no different then hunting mobs. You expend ammo to do damage, you loot a variable percentage of ammo/decay expended. Players could even 'loot' specific items generated by the looting system. Just like hunting mobs. Everything is fair. The aggressor has a real profession and the victim doesn't lose anything but decay on their armor/fap/ and their time.

You'd probably have more people fighting it out if that was the case. More people willing to engage in pvp. More fun all around! True pvpers would welcome more participants and extra challenge right?

The only people who would have less 'fun' are those looting to risk nothing while committing real life theft against a victim ill prepared to retaliate.

 

[PW3CKA]

Some people are still not getting it..

There is an element in the universe called a "Contamined Zone" its an special area where you can be looted!!

There is also several items that are suitable to that zone. Like armor or weapons to help you survive...

Why the heck should that zone be ok for a miner without armor? Why would someone who invest in equipment to be ready to go into the zone be punished??? WHY???

Your thinking is just absolutely screwed and wrong :0

 

[aia]

Why the heck should that zone be ok for a miner without armor? Why would someone who invest in equipment to be ready to go into the zone be punished??? WHY???

You're stalked in pvp4 by an unarmored miner who keeps whipping you?

 

[Chrome]

You misunderstood me, sorry to say, space is for pkers not for amateurs.

 

[Hijacker27]

Even as it is, 8 times out of 10 miners have no loot on them, whether you're carrying any of your own or not. Then half the time they DO have loot, it's just from the claim/mob they just recently extracted or killed. Its just TOO easy as it is already to get your loot out of PvP.

Just try being a PKer for a day. You'll see how hard and boring it is right now.

 

[Ceral]

Well it seems to me PKers aren't arguing against this idea but arguing that miners would still have no risk because they can still just recall vehicle from PVP 4. If recall vehicle were made to work in PVP 4 like it does in space (Recalls vehicles to inventory) I think this idea would be a lot better then. Right now it increases their risk while miners still risk nothing.

I think this would be a cool idea for space though, but if PKers are going to risk that much I think they ought to be able to get at least their kill costs if they kill an empty ship(Or ships with no cargo should be labeled or something).

Here's another idea: What if you dropped a fixed amount of TT value that was taken randomly from all your stackables?
For example if that amount were 200 peds and you had 5k alternative rock from RT and 5k ospra stones from Arkadia, you would drop 200/10k peds, and that amount would be taken randomly from your alternative rock and ospra stones.

With this limit I'd be much more willing to take the risk of mining on another planet and having to transport items. So PKs would have more potential targets, as of now, there's no way I'm gonna mine up 10k ores from another planet and spend the next day transporting that in 200 ped increments, it would take too long, and even less likely that I'll want to risk transporting in uber amounts no matter how low the risk is, with a capped risk, interplanetary trade would be more viable I would think.

And here is yet another idea: In order for an aircraft/spacecraft to fly in space it needs to have at least 50 peds of cargo on it, this would ensure any kills would be paid off. For those who don't want any risk they could fly in a mothership or someone elses vehicle, who would take the risk. This would make it worthwhile for PKs, people who defend against pks, and give transporters more business (As well as more risk, but more reward too, you should have some skills to fight the pks if you're offering transport services.)

 

[AL Killmore]

This idea sux.
PKers invest already too much in PvP - armor, gun, vehicles, enhancers, amps... Why making them invest even more? 5 ped for toxic shot is ok enough. 105 ped guaranteed loss per dying is waaaay too much.

I don't really get the idea of this thread. To make the PKer's life even harder and more expensive? To help "poor" PvP4 miners in their "escape with the loot" efforts? Why?

If you don't want to be looted - just don't enter lootable PvP zones. It's as simple as this.

 

[Alice]

This idea sux.
PKers invest already too much in PvP - armor, gun, vehicles, enhancers, amps... Why making them invest even more? 5 ped for toxic shot is ok enough. 105 ped guaranteed loss per dying is waaaay too much.

I don't really get the idea of this thread. To make the PKer's life even harder and more expensive? To help "poor" PvP4 miners in their "escape with the loot" efforts? Why?

If you don't want to be looted - just don't enter lootable PvP zones. It's as simple as this.

100 ped was just a number thrown into the place, several reasons for it though (for example, to speed the discussion a bit)
the 5 ped for the toxic shot i dont count, as everyone who goes there has one, so its the same "base risk" so to speak
harder it prolly wont get, it may actually increase your targets
more expensive, well, since all pkers are hot shots they always win, dont they, so they dont lose either (ok, that was sarcasm)
lastly, i dont see what it has to do with miners or saving them, they arent even touched by the idea

i dont see how it makes miners saver, or hunters
or how it affects being shot as such
it effects the loot of a pker, but also just to that part, that he had to risk something himself

what i say, is that it pkers should risk something as well
yet again, as it doesnt seem understandable
say you are a miner and dont hunt other ppl, you wont need 100 ped at all
but this miner risks the resources he got during the trip plus the toxic shot

the pker goes in to hunt other ppl and risks nothing but the toxic shot, as it would be fairly stupid for him to get in there with resources which could be looted atm
do you see my point there?
5 ped+loot<5 ped

so the suggestion, dont hang yourself on the 100 ped, it was just a figure, is that the pker, if he wanted to loot anything, should risk something as well (5 ped+something)

this doesnt put the miner saver in any way (as he usually wont fight)
it wont get the hunter saver in any way (same)
however, the pkers (who are, as we already learned, are all about thrill and risk) may become a target to -now the punchline- other pkers as well!

pretty much any arguement brought by the ppl against this idea (prolly pkers) so far, can be turned in favour to this idea

"have you ever tried to kill a miner? did you even see one?"
so, with pkers suddenly risking something too on their prowl, other pkers may find them
so you may actually see MORE targets as pker (ofc, you are now a target yourself, which sucks ofc)

"its about thrill and risk"
so what, you risk LESS as pker than other people!
now to increase thrill and risk, it helps to risk something (risk something=more risk=more thrill, no?)
ofc, you risk something them all of a sudden, which sucks ofc

"but they paid a shitload for their pk gear!"
and as we already learned, you basically dont see any people in the poor empty pvp zone to shoot (at least not those, who dont shoot back and would be -compared- fairly easy pray)
so having pkers to risk something themselves could suddenly put the pk gear into use! (at least into more use)

"but we are poor pkers and dont want to risk anything, but you suck cause i have bigger guns"
now other ppl with big guns may come after you, which could allow you to prove that they suck!

the other problem is, i dont just speak about pvp4, its about lootable zones in general
the point is simple
if you want loot from other ppl, risk some yourself

not more
not just pvp4, not to make miners saver, nothing like that
it is a point of suggested fairness
so it is more like making pkers as save as miners (actually they are still saver, since they got all the expensive pk gear and stuff as mentioned, which the miner usually doesnt have to that extent)
which may even improve your pk games

as to the last point, one, if not THE, most often said sentence for that
"if you dont want to get looted, dont go to the lootable pvp"
totally correct
but currently, this doesnt apply for the pker so to speak, who is after other ppl, thus enters without anything and thus has nothing on him to be looted kinda, when first encountered
not like the miner, who is after resources and thus has them in his inventory when encountered

so even the "dont go there if you dont want to be looted", speaks for this idea, cause pkers can do that

 

[Imperious]

Alice, you usually have some good ideas and I respect you as a thinker, but this idea is a terrible one, in my opinion.

Good luck out there.