Imagine everyone have 100% TT returns, would the game survive?

BlackHawk

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Scaling a project is not easy. The fact that they waste money on things that failed... if those things would have been a success you would have praised them. In order to have success you fail many many times. Failing is part of the success.
 

Darth Revan

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development costs may just stay the same, if they keep the current pace of development. amount of support work may decrease, let's face it, there will be a lot less complaining.
the spending on advertising can be decreased, players who like a game will advertise it for MA.
more players brings financial stability.
Actually more players means more support work not less. The complaining that goes on when there are not game exploiting bugs is crazy, and its not like the game has WoW player base numbers. So more staff required for that.
Development would need to step up as well, is easy enough to delay development on a game that doesn't have a huge playerbase without many issues (other than complaints), but a large playerbase would require decent development over time....a lot more than they currently do, otherwise those people will go elsewhere.

Making this game cheaper to play to bring in more people doesn't mean they will automatically earn more money from it all. They don't really advertise as it is and there is prob a good reason for that....so decrease in advertising costs is a mute point.

In conclusion, what may work for other games, does not mean it would work for EU. We may not think MA are smart in some of the things they do, but they are good at keeping a game running for a long time in a niche market.
 

Alukat123

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Scaling a project is not easy. The fact that they waste money on things that failed... if those things would have been a success you would have praised them. In order to have success you fail many many times. Failing is part of the success.
sinking money into fail projects just because you want to jump on some hyped stuff as well is just bad business... as a company you don't have to be on/in everything...

i would not have praised them, why would i? the only thing i would praise them for is making a good entropia universe...

Actually more players means more support work not less. The complaining that goes on when there are not game exploiting bugs is crazy, and its not like the game has WoW player base numbers. So more staff required for that.
Development would need to step up as well, is easy enough to delay development on a game that doesn't have a huge playerbase without many issues (other than complaints), but a large playerbase would require decent development over time....a lot more than they currently do, otherwise those people will go elsewhere.

Making this game cheaper to play to bring in more people doesn't mean they will automatically earn more money from it all. They don't really advertise as it is and there is prob a good reason for that....so decrease in advertising costs is a mute point.

In conclusion, what may work for other games, does not mean it would work for EU. We may not think MA are smart in some of the things they do, but they are good at keeping a game running for a long time in a niche market.
please , don't act like it would take 1 extra employee for support case per new player... As a matter of fact, the more players you have, the more money you make... if it were the more players you have, the bigger the losses are going to get, then there would not be a single MMO with big player base around...

Many games simply show your claims being false.

Do you in all honesty believe, 10 times the player base with 10 times the income would increase the costs more than 10 fold, so it won't be worthwhile?

making 1$ profit per player and having 10000 players gets more money, than making 20$ profit per player with having 50 players... simple math...
 
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Stefan 008 Bond

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Alternative idea:

Stop trying to take most, if not all of the revenue from the simple act of farming and skilling. Open up next level revenue sources. Focus on Land areas, deeds, larger constructs ( high level crafting (L) privateers anyone?), how about space mining and trading ouposts, how about much more accesible land area management options, farming, fishing, sponsoring competitive leagues for pvp racing and a host of other complimentary game ideas

Texturing, coloring needs a major overhaul, take a look at what current games like fortnite generate on clothing alone!

Just some thoughts...

Too much taxing on the core game play imo:
Its a bit lazy and the easy way out
 
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Darth Revan

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please , don't act like it would take 1 extra employee for support case per new player... As a matter of fact, the more players you have, the more money you make... if it were the more players you have, the bigger the losses are going to get, then there would not be a single MMO with big player base around...

Many games simply show your claims being false.

Do you in all honesty believe, 10 times the player base with 10 times the income would increase the costs more than 10 fold, so it won't be worthwhile?

making 1$ profit per player and having 10000 players gets more money, than making 20$ profit per player with having 50 players... simple math...
Please enlighten me as to where i said it would require 1 extra employee for support case per new player?
I said it would require more staff if the player base increases, not that it would be a 1 for 1. Also a huge playerbase doesn't grow overnight, it takes years to achieve, so they will be sacrificing revenue and increasing their costs for years to attempt to grow the playerbase....where currently they have a steady stream.

Alright lets make your simple math more realisitic based on your own complaints of returns in the current system. Lets also use a bit more player numbers as there are more than 50 players in EU but we will still be more conservative. Having 100,000 players making $1 profit per player vs 1000 making $100 profit per player. Infrastructure is different for both, one requiring a lot more costs. With all the money sunk into the game each month, i can see which one i would go for and its not the huge numbers.

One thing to consider: perhaps they don't want a huge playerbase? perhaps there is some limit that we don't know about. You need to stop assuming that every gaming company wants a huge number of players. MA know what they want for their game, we as players do not. So what may make sense for a normal MMO that is not RCE where huge playerbase is required, does not mean that EU could support that.

Not every company can support expansion, there are many that overreach and go bankrupt because of this.
If the system currently works for them, they have no reason to change it, unless their playerbase drops dramatically.
 

Alukat123

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One thing to consider: perhaps they don't want a huge playerbase?
maybe, that would explain why they did take steps to reduce the playerbase...
why they would want to reduce the playerbase however is beyond me, as it just increases the risk of bankruptcy...

Having 100,000 players making $1 profit per player vs 1000 making $100 profit per player.
major mistake in there, it isn't linear, it's expontially in reality...

oh and btw, with cost reduction you can take both type of players, those who can depo a little and those who can depo a lot. those who depo 100$ per month now can still depo 100$ per month after cost-reduction...
that's another fallacy you guys have, you assume people who depo rather big now, will reduce their depoing after cost reduction... while in reality they just depo the same and simply move to bigger/higher stuff...
 
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Fanan

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A company not wanting to growup their player base is a bit weird. Something very fishy must be going on so that they don't want an increase in number of costumers, after all these costumers are the ones paying for all those failed side projects, staff salaries, servers maintenance, office rent, etc. If they didn't want more players why then paying to Youtubers to promote their game?

When I started in 2008 there were times where I couldn't even reach the craft machine. I remember trying to craft at TI server was a pain because the huge amount of players inside the service center and I couldn't even reach the craft machine because of all the players on the way. It's their own CEO that claim that they make money from the millions of micro transactions happening in game.

One pet spawned it making money. One VTOL flying back to the hunting field is making money. One attempt of selling on the auction is making money. One used auto loot pill is making money. These are all ways to reduce the amount of PED in the game. Like BlackHawk said:

I do not believe MA makes profit, as a company, from decay, as it makes profit from deposits and interest they get on your deposit. From what I've seen in financial reports - and I may not be that smart to understand it all- all deposits are counted as income. The income is not the decay inside the game in accounting papers. Withdrawals are expenses. You have no contract to get 90% back or 100% back or even 10% back on any specific activity.
I do also believe in this. They really make money when we deposit period. They could give us 200% tt returns, yet if we did never withdrawal, they would still technically making money because in game it's all bits and bites, what really matter, the real money, is on a bank account or invested in any crazy side project (actually I really hope not!). So taking this in account every PEC that they can make evaporate from the game is a win for the house. Being it a little nutrio bar from the spawned pet, a fee from a failed auction or the 1% over a 40K PED withdrawal (400ped fee).

You know how much ped evaporate when you upgrade a Maddox IV? I did the math last night, it's around 1500ped TT (150USD) out of the system. It's a win win situation. Mindark get TT value out of the game and at same time the Markup of item raises, so whoever buys it have to put even more money inside the game. It's also very similar with the tier upgrades.

With so many mechanisms to take PED out of the game why can't we have tt return more close to 100%? I'm the one being naive here? I'm the one being greedy here? When we have plenty of missions to kill 16.600 of a type of mob? Aren't all those mechanisms already sufficient? Why the need to have 90% tt returns where it's almost all shrapnel.

Taking in account the example of the Maddox IV upgrade, 150 USD is a bit of money if play traditional games. How much does it last on WOW? A full year of play? Have you noticed the lowest value of HOF in mining and hunting? If the highest HOFs are lower that means the incentive to take them out of game will be lower. Getting a 2k ped HOF is probably being pumped up again into the system, now if that was a 40K PEd HOF...


- Yes we need more players! Special with this kinda of loot 2.0 system in place.
- We need more stable returns, more close to 100%, so new and older players have confidence in the system and not need to wait years to see that number.
- The fees for depo and withdrawal are already enough, why do we need to wait 3 full months? (So they can "play" with depos vs withdrawal and don't need to touch the money already invested)

To those talking about the cost of the support department, they don't even work on weekends! Plus as we saw on the recent issue the information don't even reach the responsible team.

I have to agree that this recent CEO is making some good difference, 3 VU's in one week! WOW Some years ago we had Christmas threes still spawned in May!
We need decent HOF daily and weekly, not only on craft but also on mining and hunting. Why give a 400K mining HOF and then months on end without even see a 40k one? What kind of algorithm is that?

Keep the dream alive! We the best community ever deserve much better.

Thanks for all the replies so far!
 
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WoenK

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- Deposit fee (3.5% when depositing via CC)
Deposit fee is zero via bank transfer. Your mentioned fee is what MA has to pay to your CC provider.


And as long as people still TT everything that has no "real" MU, nope...no need for a dumb down.
Most poeple complainign about returns do not factor in the shrapnel recycled and the skills earned (still do not understand why nobody really cares paying for the codex skills...there is no such thing as a free meal in Entropia).
 

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Deposit fee is zero via bank transfer. Your mentioned fee is what MA has to pay to your CC provider.


And as long as people still TT everything that has no "real" MU, nope...no need for a dumb down.
Most poeple complainign about returns do not factor in the shrapnel recycled and the skills earned (still do not understand why nobody really cares paying for the codex skills...there is no such thing as a free meal in Entropia).
I bought PED with my Credit Card. It's a Mastercard. Later I also get on my bank extract another fee for international service cost, something to do with the coin exchange probably. It's way too much.

I know direct bank transfer is the best option but that can take some hours or some days, I have used it only 2 or 3 times, mostly of the time I use the Mastercard.

Real Amount: 150.00 EUR
Deposit Fee: 5.25 EUR

It's quite a bit don't you think? I didn't even started to play and already lost 3.5%.
 

Jhereg

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I bought PED with my Credit Card. It's a Mastercard. Later I also get on my bank extract another fee for international service cost, something to do with the coin exchange probably. It's way too much.

I know direct bank transfer is the best option but that can take some hours or some days, I have used it only 2 or 3 times, mostly of the time I use the Mastercard.

Real Amount: 150.00 EUR
Deposit Fee: 5.25 EUR

It's quite a bit don't you think? I didn't even started to play and already lost 3.5%.
Yes but MA does not get this...it goes to the banks doing the transfers or currency conversions or CC fees....
 

Alukat123

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And as long as people still TT everything that has no "real" MU, nope...no need for a dumb down.
so people who don't tt everything should keep running 90% or lower TT-return because there's people who tt everything? What is that for a logic :confused:
 

RickEngland

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There's a risk that even if 95% returns is the norm, that the concept of RCE becomes pointless, if there's minimal avenues to recover 5% of a huge turnover other than a win in events.

So you start thinking about it, and ask yourself if 98% is doable outside events. It takes many years to convince a player to invest considerable amount of money in gear (let alone skill), to reach that potential, to even consider taking on that challenge for both time and money.

Problem for MA is their product is aging and competing in an online games market that doesn't require huge investments to play it and enjoy it.

So if we dont lift the return percent, or offer reasonable lootable chances to find those items to gain MU, they will need to think outside the box again.

One way of doing this is MA provide gear and full ammo at an entry cost to an instance. You pay $5 or $10 for 2 hour play, and need no other investment. Maybe you get 90% back. But you paid for some fun without huge investment. That is the market I think MA need to aim at.

Put it this way, I will not invest $30k+ in top gear just to play it. Then need huge bankroll, and except 95% return. I'm done with that bull poo.

I'd rather have a laugh on some smartphone games I play. That is the harsh reality of the current market. I'd be happy to burn up a few dollars though for good entertainment (not boring loot grinds anymore), if MA provide that environment.

Rick.
 

Alukat123

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One way of doing this is MA provide gear and full ammo at an entry cost to an instance. You pay $5 or $10 for 2 hour play, and need no other investment. Maybe you get 90% back. But you paid for some fun without huge investment. That is the market I think MA need to aim at.
and the only loot you can get from that instance is ped?
 

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The game wouldn't survive because everyone would die of boredom getting 3k ped "ATHs" every month. and a few globals a week. However if they make it less volatile for lower level hunting, it may actually improve player retention rate which is good for the game.
So now we're not dying of boredom?

Indeed.

Now we die out of frustration.
for the non stop losses. And for what? To chase some pixels?
 

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One way of doing this is MA provide gear and full ammo at an entry cost to an instance. You pay $5 or $10 for 2 hour play, and need no other investment. Maybe you get 90% back. But you paid for some fun without huge investment. That is the market I think MA need to aim at.
This is what Batsim was in a way, but it was removed with no explanation. I think it should've been fixed and expanded instead.
 

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No, the game would not survive. Players would get even more lazy and totally bored. MA already did this experiment, it was called Batsim.

This is what Batsim was in a way, but it was removed with no explanation. I think it should've been fixed and expanded instead.
It's simple, people lost interest in it. Only a handful of players were doing it for the PED reward. Everyone else just 'died of boredom'. It's exactly what would happen to the game because if people would get such high TT returns, there won't be the possibility of high loots. People are already doing well with 97-98 + markup but Atrox is still top 5 mob in hunter's choice, according to EL and they seem to be fine with it.
At 100% tt return EVERYONE would turn to EP4. Now you are forced to get creative to find the edge and push when you do well. It's still up to you in which f these categories you want to be:

a) profit (not every day ofc, but at the end of the year)
b) be self sustainable and not having to deposit to play;
c) continuous loss

Everyone starts with c) and dreams about b). When one does the right things, gets to b) and starts their journey to a).
Sadly most of the people don't do the right things and stay in c) category then quit.

This is still a choice, even in 2020.
 

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Some people never get tired of reinventing the wheel again and again..

With all the time you spend writing this kind of fantasy on the forum, do you have some time left over to play the game you're talking about ?.. :rolleyes:
 

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so you don't like that you will have to put some efford in?
This always has been the case and should always stay like this in order for the game to survive. It has to have profit potential in order to stay attractive to the hardcore playerbase; the casuals come and go and don't commit to a profession.

Oh and you're asking the wrong person about putting effort in this game :laugh: I recently entered top 15 (all time) active hunters on EL.
 

Alukat123

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This always has been the case and should always stay like this in order for the game to survive.
and even if the tt-return does increase it will stay that way...

Oh and you're asking the wrong person about putting effort in this game :laugh: I recently entered top 15 (all time) active hunters on EL.
no, i am not, you're acting like if everyone gets better return, then you got to put in more efford.
 

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The main creation of this thread was to show the ways MA actually have to evaporate Ped from game, we can clearly see it on tier increase and items upgrades, which seems to be now a important part of the game. How many items are upgradable? And much more to come! Plus others things like mind essence, nutrios, oil, pills, shares buy/sell fees, etc. (check first post)

All of this we didn't have some years ago and game survived and could drop lots of surprises, even without placing on MAyhem events.

Actually, with all this mechanisms in place would be fair to think that TT returns could be better, since there are new ways to remove PED from game in favor of the house. Plus all the shrapnel loot and the daily HOFs being much lower now that they were years ago, some days I cry when look at TOP places ofdaily mining HOFs.

If you think about it even with a 99% return the house still get a nice junk and everyone would be more happy and play more. How many PED are being cycled in the whole universe in one day? Think again 1% is still pretty good PLUS all the mechanisms in place to evaporate PED since you depo until you withdraw.

The thing I observe is that we still losing good while there are now more ways to remove ped from game. The reward HOFs are lower and more rare and all of this shrapnel in loot. Doesn't look like a progression to us players, maybe for the house but not for us.
 

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The main creation of this thread was to show the ways MA actually have to evaporate Ped from game
If you dig in the AMA section I'm pretty sure you would find most of the stuff listed in the OP as income that goes back in the loot. And like others have said, MA is a business and they also need to constantly improve the ways they make $. Which is preferred, because we need the game to grow...
 

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If you dig in the AMA section I'm pretty sure you would find most of the stuff listed in the OP as income that goes back in the loot. And like others have said, MA is a business and they also need to constantly improve the ways they make $. Which is preferred, because we need the game to grow...
in the last 15 years did MA show any intention to grow the playerbase? i havent seen any, apart from a few gimmicks, that were removed as fast as they came (looking at you real world ads ingame)
 

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in the last 15 years did MA show any intention to grow the playerbase? i havent seen any, apart from a few gimmicks, that were removed as fast as they came (looking at you real world ads ingame)
They have tried but they are incredibly bad at it.
 

Alukat123

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If you dig in the AMA section I'm pretty sure you would find most of the stuff listed in the OP as income that goes back in the loot. And like others have said, MA is a business and they also need to constantly improve the ways they make $. Which is preferred, because we need the game to grow...
MA already makes a lot of money. Why are you concerned about that anyway? Or are you just using it as an excuse to keep the game as it is.

For a gaming company the main priority should be to make a good game and have satisfied players. Can't make money when you don't have players :rolleyes:
 

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- Deposit fees (3.5% when depositing via CC)
- Withdrawal fee (1%)
- Auctions fees
- Buy/Sell Shares fees
- Oil consumed in all vehicles
- Mind Essense used on Personal Teleport
- Vehicles decay when attacked (some without even get attacked just by using them)
- Truster decay every time we enter Space
- Repair of vehicles
- Cloths decay when equipped
- Rings decay when equipped
- Refiner decay (most of time it increase MU but that is payed by a player never by MA)
- Pets food
- Teleports fee (those 7 peds every time you TP from CP, FOMA, Monria, Ark Moon)
- Pills (right they have a function but the TT is lost when taken)
- Upgraded Items (more TT value in than out, the increased MU is payed by player)
- Advertising Screens fee
- Events creation fee
- Fertilizer consumed
- Tier upgrades (the item become better but that is translated in form of Markup payed by players)
- Soul Bound items (on a RCE is crazy but they exist, no TT refund if you want to sell it)
- Chipping out fee (10% of all chipped out skills are lost and they have a TT value)
- Payn-Inc Implant Inserter decay
- Pheromones use (Neomex cave)
All of those income's are ingame income's only.

They cant pay their cost's with ped earned ingame by AH transactions and oil consume.
They need cash every month.
Also, with 100% return, some from this list also would gone like:

pills, rings, upgrade, those are did for better return, with 100% return, those are pointless.
auction, i buy for MU because its cheaper to get it than looting it, with 100% return, its not cheaper to buy it.
chip in - out? why would you chip in skills? with 100% return, its free to get any ammount, you wont chip in for improve your avatar to improve your return because its already maxed.
Gear also would be worthless, you wont depo ten K's of ped's just to buy an expensive item, that will improve nothing on your return.
They even can remove the cap's and UL will drop like rain, economy would be dead anyway with 100% return, so doesnt matter if there are an UL armor part or weapon dropped from every 2nd mob, they improve nothing on your return anymore.

Once return is 100%, you may deposit 1 more time, than play forever for free, so cash income will be nothing.
There will be new players ofc, but there will be leaving player's too so cash in - out can be balanced.
Now its definetly more in than out.

No cash income = game over.

In the other hand, why peoples would play?

I cant imagine i would play this game if no chance for finding something big, can be hunting / mining / crafting ATH, or some great item like the MtwonumberAugmented gun was recently, or just a simple seasonal ring, maybe mayhem reward.
Without those, playing this game is pointless.
If i want to play a game where i can kill K's of mobs for free (because 100% return would mean this), there are much better options out there to play.
PVP? There are much better options out there to play.
Adventure? Yes, can be interesting for 1-2 weeks to run around on all the plantes.
 

Alukat123

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All of those income's are ingame income's only.

They cant pay their cost's with ped earned ingame by AH transactions and oil consume.
They need cash every month.
Also, with 100% return, some from this list also would gone like:

pills, rings, upgrade, those are did for better return, with 100% return, those are pointless.
auction, i buy for MU because its cheaper to get it than looting it, with 100% return, its not cheaper to buy it.
chip in - out? why would you chip in skills? with 100% return, its free to get any ammount, you wont chip in for improve your avatar to improve your return because its already maxed.
Gear also would be worthless, you wont depo ten K's of ped's just to buy an expensive item, that will improve nothing on your return.
They even can remove the cap's and UL will drop like rain, economy would be dead anyway with 100% return, so doesnt matter if there are an UL armor part or weapon dropped from every 2nd mob, they improve nothing on your return anymore.
False, people will still pay MU, just to save time.

Once return is 100%, you may deposit 1 more time, than play forever for free, so cash income will be nothing.
There will be new players ofc, but there will be leaving player's too so cash in - out can be balanced.
Now its definetly more in than out.
False, again. People will keep depoing, just to get higher. Can't kill Zombie Kongs on a 100 PED budget, just as example :rolleyes:

I cant imagine i would play this game if no chance for finding something big, can be hunting / mining / crafting ATH, or some great item like the MtwonumberAugmented gun was recently, or just a simple seasonal ring, maybe mayhem reward.
Even with 100% tt-return you can get something big. Don't confuse 100% tt-return overall mid/long-term for 100% instant tt-return....

If i want to play a game where i can kill K's of mobs for free (because 100% return would mean this), there are much better options out there to play.
then why are you still here, when you know there's better games out there? :rolleyes:
 

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If you dig in the AMA section I'm pretty sure you would find most of the stuff listed in the OP as income that goes back in the loot.
Where in the AMA exactly are you reading that?!?....

There was some statements from Marco many years ago, but those conflicted 100% with other statements put out, especially the info on the old affiliate website that stated that auction fees went to Mindark/Planet Partner 50/50...

https://web.archive.org/web/20100418025815/http://www.planetcalypso.eu/en/node/71

Another source of income are fees and commissions attached to the in-game auction and player's shops. Every sale on the auction and shops produces a sales commission that also gets shared 50:50 between Mindark and the Planet Partner.
As for the 'deposit fees' Mindark's always stated that it's a fee the bank charges them, so that does not go back to loot...

Mindark's never said anything about the fees they put on buy/sell shares going back to loot...

Marco's old statements indicate that Mindark makes money from decay and not much else, but the above and many other statements put out over the year seems to imply otherwise and that all these other ped leaks are going directly in to Mindark and PP pockets.
 

Alukat123

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and let's not forget MA increased the tt-return on hunting with loot 2.0 and made it less volatile, that hasn't done them any harm... so now they could just do the same for crafting/mining to those 97/98% with reduced volatility as well or just go 99% tt-return for everything.... people will just click/bomb more ^^
 

Hego Damask

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False, people will still pay MU, just to save time.


False, again. People will keep depoing, just to get higher. Can't kill Zombie Kongs on a 100 PED budget, just as example :rolleyes:



Even with 100% tt-return you can get something big. Don't confuse 100% tt-return overall mid/long-term for 100% instant tt-return....



then why are you still here, when you know there's better games out there? :rolleyes:

If its not 100% isntantly, and some still can get 50-300k out from the loot pool, its the same as now, few will earn, the rest will loose.
You cant get 100% for everybody and still give 50-300k for some lucky player.
Somebody have to pay for their lucky loot, and than if players pays for them, its not 100% for the rest.
Its sounds like we want more loot, we want less votality but we want to keep the big ATH's and we want more of them, like before 2.0


Yes, you depo for zombie kong ammo, and as 100% the return, you can withdraw it later, its the same as i wrote, you depo 1 more time for ammo, but after than, not needed because you wont loose that ammo.
Its not extra cash for them, its just more cash they babysitting till removed.


Yes, peoples pay mu, with everybody getting 100% return, much more activity will happen, because no loss that would make them stop, everything will be flooded, what kind of mu you can expect? 100.001% for the common, and a crazy 100.1% for the most rare ones?


Im here because the game is not the one you want it to be in this thread.
 
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