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Limited items are the way forward

Arthur The Hunter said:
Welcome to EU. 🤣
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Yea but it shouldn't be that way. They need to find a way for noobs to win just as much as high level. Skill can still be involved. Just make it a certain level of noob they have to gain skill to achieve.
 
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L gear sucks ass. Most of it. Only people that want to run that shit are broke boys or noobs, stimulate the economy in other areas if you got bright ideas that do not harm the players aka investors who have kept mindark operating for these 2 decades by investing large peds into gear. It sure wasnt joe blow burning his 1 or 2 armatrix on ambu a week.
 
Creo said:
Yea but is shouldn't be that way. They need to find a way for noobs to win just as much as high level. Skill can still be involved. Just make it a certain level of noob they have to gain skill to achieve.
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Grab one of the high effi noob weapons and go shoot vixen 24/7, I'm sure you will profit. Will you have fun doing it? I doubt it.
There needs to be a motivation not to stay noob forever and what is better motivation (carrot) than a vision of "better tomorrow" when you get more skilled?

In general, this thread is so selfish, I can't even believe it.
UL gear always had, always will and always should have place in this game. To some people it was an investment, to some it was long term goal, something to keep them going (my case). All the effort and investment was already devaluated by over 50% with release of the L weapons you are so much crying for.

This game offers different experience to different players, you are all free to do whatever you like, it's your life.
You want to use L weapons? Do it.
You want to use UL weapons? Do it.
You want to use combined model? Do it.

No one is forcing any of you to go any particular way, because what is right for you, doesn't have to be right for someone else, but why should someone who is lazy or not willing to put in any effort have same advantages than someone who did put the effort in? Level of effort that is put in, reflects the level of "benefits" you have in the game. Maybe try looking at the game from different perspectives than only from yours.
 
90% of people who suggest this would literally never use (L) items for hunting and mining long term.

Make new professions, Space Mining was a step in the right direction (even if heavily flawed) and shows that MA is capable of doing so.
 
I read all so far and there are some misconcepts and some very good points
1. UL is nto the evil, you pay upfront the MU ofr using a (L) item equivalent, the puller or looter of UL item that can sellit can recoup some of his actitity tax losses
2. MA balance account shows that SENIORAGE is biggest part of income, each million ped sold there is a 700k ped profit and 300k ped reserves. so key for MA is to SELL ped not tax activity. and most important PED MUST REMAIN IN GAME so that the reserve is never redeemed. that is why UL are better... to work at their best they must be FULL REPAIRED. 1000 items with 1000 tt make it up to 1m locked peds.
3. (L) Mayhem were good and bad. good because of sinking excess of tokens, bad because they hit armatrix crafting. i am myself using a LB40 mayhem and in 8 hours i lost less than 1 ped TT so it can last 2 months.
4. all (L) items are considered SIB Skilling ones from my perspective. they are scalable and of course they bring a 1% overhead ... many people that say it is too much are later killing in LA with 3 or 5% tax.... 1% is an acceptable skill cost ? probably yes, at the moment skill juice 100% at 2 ped make it possible to manufacture 30 ped TT skill for a mid level hunter... skilling is cheap so also
5. make different items available at different level of skills in armor as it is on weapons? useless.. more skilled people (evader/dodger( require lower level of defense for regular monster, for session on biggerones probably its better to get a specialized (L) armor that cost less. as Legend explained, ANY crafted armor under 110% MU is better than UL....
6. armatrix has its market, probably until level 40 series later on were rising theuir cost.. with redulite prices crashed also armatrix over level 80 are craftable with 1....1.5% overhead so the higher level of them are interesting.
7. EFF myth clashes with "TT CAP" so every thing said about this is a useless argument, no one can beat the game, not even a lp70perf or a 97.5% eff TWIMK2. everyone must pay to the house its tribute.



i see real problem is that there is no one taking "our losses" i mean activity tax sinks ped... even 1% of ped card values ... tomorrow we will ahve 99% then 98.1 then 97.2... ped card erosion can be stopped just with fresh injection of PED by people that WANT to pay MU to progress.
if there is no wlll to pay MU we can also ALL revert to TT and kill pleaks with TT weapons to let ourped last longer but eventually all ped cards will die starving.
every idea is welcome and some have a short term menaing. loing term i see only fresh players with fat wallets as a solution to revamp economy.

want a provoking idea?
buy solar panels with activity tax, put the return of the sale of electrivity into uniammo that are assigned every friday to all players based on their activity as a ENERGY SALE CASHBACK. this should be of course like 80% of prodction to pay for the expenses. this can be done also by PP or LA managers on their specific activity.
this is a revolution to "transfer losses OUTSIDE the game" using a RL utility production to pay the bill.
(or have monster drop coca cola tokens, and MCTokens to sell advertisement :)

servers cost and some has to pay for them.... no one of us wants to... we all want someone else to pay the bill...
 
Introducing an L only economy seems like the Entropia equivalent of "You will own nothing & you'll be happy". What next then? You will eat ze bugz instead of hunting them?

I wish people would consider the fact that we're not working off a blank sheet & a huge number of players would absolutely abhor & reject this approach. (Just like they do IRL)

Why are the have-nots always aiming to get others down to their levels instead of pushing for a more worthwhile & abundant environment.

The suggestion of introducing modular UL items seems like a practical idea. Loot new resources from hunting & mining that can then be used to craft components through which a user can add damage points to their weapons & armors etc.

This should create some extra & meaningful MU.

Beyond that I still believe that TT returns need to be improved back to loot 1.0 mechanics, i.e. don't require 100.000s or millions of peds cycled to hopefully, eventually, finally hit that 2k multiplier. It's mind-numbingly boring & utterly frustrating. Throwing around % returns means nothing if not applied to timespans resulting from ped cycles of individual players. Time played per ped cycled should be a benchmark. Time played per ped has fallen off a cliff with 2.0 for a huge number of players, i dare say a majority. Shrinkflation Entropia style.
 
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nah, just make L attachments for all UL items so it boosts the power they have... We already have tiers. Now add in a new thing like that called boosts or something where you add in extra component built parts to give more buffs and things on a seperate layer above and beyond what tiers do... then a third layer called gems or runes or something that does similar... give each UL item capability of unlocking 5-10 of these layers similar to tiers and all of those things could be crafted, etc. Give useless components a purpose in this system...
 
Svako said:
Grab one of the high effi noob weapons and go shoot vixen 24/7, I'm sure you will profit. Will you have fun doing it? I doubt it.
There needs to be a motivation not to stay noob forever and what is better motivation (carrot) than a vision of "better tomorrow" when you get more skilled?

In general, this thread is so selfish, I can't even believe it.
UL gear always had, always will and always should have place in this game. To some people it was an investment, to some it was long term goal, something to keep them going (my case). All the effort and investment was already devaluated by over 50% with release of the L weapons you are so much crying for.

This game offers different experience to different players, you are all free to do whatever you like, it's your life.
You want to use L weapons? Do it.
You want to use UL weapons? Do it.
You want to use combined model? Do it.

No one is forcing any of you to go any particular way, because what is right for you, doesn't have to be right for someone else, but why should someone who is lazy or not willing to put in any effort have same advantages than someone who did put the effort in? Level of effort that is put in, reflects the level of "benefits" you have in the game. Maybe try looking at the game from different perspectives than only from yours.
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Will I EVER profit more than the Markup I pay each time I purchase the L weapon? (Trick question... NO)

The issue you are dancing around is that Markup of what is looted is NOT ENOUGH to overcome the Markup of the L weapon!

Also lazy? You think RL money grows on trees? Last time I checked it takes EFFORT to acquire it.
 
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Limited is very flawed where someone is always getting screwed.

On the surface it looks great. Crafters can earn markup, miners earn markup... But hunters take it in the butt since the markup is huge overhead in a system designed to rarely if ever give back more than you put in.

Additionally, most of the markup is due to artificial bottlenecks. It's either limiting the flow of needed resources or limiting the amount if blueprints. The result is only a very few are actually benefiting in this equasion.

If they fully open the flow of resouces and make the bps common, markup on the item disappears. I'm not against limited stuff. Things getting consumed is a good thing. But it needs to be handled much better.

Personally, I think the way forward is a dramatic business model shift. Drop TT value entirely, charge a subscription and fund real cash events with the proceeds. The goal then becomes improving for the sake of competing for guaranteed cash rather than just the chance of it being possible.

But everyone is a freaking baby about subscription fees and challenging the status quo. They hate the idea of paying a flat $15/mo but have no problem making a $20 deposit a day every time they run out of ammo.
 
jambon said:
Limited is very flawed where someone is always getting screwed.

On the surface it looks great. Crafters can earn markup, miners earn markup... But hunters take it in the butt since the markup is huge overhead in a system designed to rarely if ever give back more than you put in.

Additionally, most of the markup is due to artificial bottlenecks. It's either limiting the flow of needed resources or limiting the amount if blueprints. The result is only a very few are actually benefiting in this equasion.

If they fully open the flow of resouces and make the bps common, markup on the item disappears. I'm not against limited stuff. Things getting consumed is a good thing. But it needs to be handled much better.

Personally, I think the way forward is a dramatic business model shift. Drop TT value entirely, charge a subscription and fund real cash events with the proceeds. The goal then becomes improving for the sake of competing for guaranteed cash rather than just the chance of it being possible.

But everyone is a freaking baby about subscription fees and challenging the status quo. They hate the idea of paying a flat $15/mo but have no problem making a $20 deposit a day every time they run out of ammo.
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I dont think the subscription model works for anyone who has any high value items in the game unless you are talking a forced amount of ped deposit per month.

This does ruin the whole 'f2p' original idea behind Entropia.
 
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Creo said:
I dont think the subscription model works for anyone who has any high value items in the game unless you are talking a forced amount of ped deposit per month.

This does ruin the whole 'f2p' original idea behind Entropia.
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It still could, the markup of their items should remain mostly unchanged with the move provided that the sponsored events are in line with providing the well equipped players with a similar financial prospect as just doing hunting on their own. If the move were to happen all TT value of their items would just be given to those players and durability would be a metric detached from TT value.

Entropia has always been more like a "Fee 2 Pay" model rather than "Free 2 Play". The idea of being technically "free" to play is a bit of a stretch anyways since the most engaging of activity is behind a pay wall. Sure, you can grind to get a few peds to do those paid activities for free but you're in essence working doing a mind numbingly boring activity like sweating - trading hours for dollars... (well.. pennies anyways).

The vast majority of players aren't playing for free. In fact, many longer term players are ungodly sums of money in the hole - tens of thousands. And this isn't like a typical free to play game where money spent is on cosmetics and other pointless crap. Real money is needed for the majority of all activity in game.

Using this same logic one could argue a casino is Free to Play as well. You just need to spend hours walking around picking up discarded payout slips for a few pennies here and there until you have enough to do a few spins on your slot of choice hoping for a win.
 
Creo said:
Will I EVER profit more than the Markup I pay each time I purchase the L weapon? (Trick question... NO)

The issue you are dancing around is that that Markup of what is looted is NOT ENOUGH to overcome the Markup of the L weapon!

Also lazy? You think RL money grows on trees? Last time I checked it takes EFFORT to acquire it.
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Depends on what you hunt, I used L only for 5 years and was able to sustain it with minimal investment and slowly upgrade my gear to my pretty decent high end loot 2.0 setup. Maybe choose what you hunt more carefully.

Learning the game to be able to survive in it and level up in parallel, so you are not stuck for 20 years hunting level 20 mobs is the effort I'm talking about. Doesn't matter, I'm not here to argue, I'm sure you know what is best for ALL players and we should ALL be forced to play the same correct way.
Having a choice is apparently not a choice here.

BTW, what exactly are you proposing anyway? Are you searching for a model where everyone profits? High levels, low levels, everyone is happy, we all play for free, withdraw something now and then... who will pay for it? Mind Ark? This is MMORCE game (practically PvP), maybe don't play it if you don't like the RCE part of it.
 
Svako said:
Depends on what you hunt, I used L only for 5 years and was able to sustain it with minimal investment and slowly upgrade my gear to my pretty decent high end loot 2.0 setup. Maybe choose what you hunt more carefully.

Learning the game to be able to survive in it and level up in parallel, so you are not stuck for 20 years hunting level 20 mobs is the effort I'm talking about. Doesn't matter, I'm not here to argue, I'm sure you know what is best for ALL players and we should ALL be forced to play the same correct way.
Having a choice is apparently not a choice here.

BTW, what exactly are you proposing anyway? Are you searching for a model where everyone profits? High levels, low levels, everyone is happy, we all play for free, withdraw something now and then... who will pay for it? Mind Ark? This is MMORCE game (practically PvP), maybe don't play it if you don't like the RCE part of it.
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Good points, RCE part at this point is joke tho.
 
Arthur The Hunter said:
Good points, RCE part at this point is joke tho.
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MA made a lot of weird moves recently, let's hope (for sake of us all) that they will find a way to recover and earn our trust back.
Recently some moves in right direction were made by them, so hope still lives :)
 
jambon said:
Limited is very flawed where someone is always getting screwed.

On the surface it looks great. Crafters can earn markup, miners earn markup... But hunters take it in the butt since the markup is huge overhead in a system designed to rarely if ever give back more than you put in.
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This isn't clear to me at all. My hypothesis would be that the markup output by all three professions would increase, but the counteracting input markup increases would fall on crafters the hardest, since 0% of their input costs are markup immune whereas hunters and miners purchase input from the TT.

jambon said:
Additionally, most of the markup is due to artificial bottlenecks. It's either limiting the flow of needed resources or limiting the amount if blueprints. The result is only a very few are actually benefiting in this equasion.

If they fully open the flow of resouces and make the bps common, markup on the item disappears. I'm not against limited stuff. Things getting consumed is a good thing. But it needs to be handled much better.
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All demand in Entropia is due to artificial bottlenecks. Perhaps scarcity to the extent that folks literally cannot find the items they want in circulation should be considered artificial in a stronger sense. But the only truly non-artificial bottlenecks are machine precision and the like, and there are creative ways around those as well.

jambon said:
Personally, I think the way forward is a dramatic business model shift. Drop TT value entirely, charge a subscription and fund real cash events with the proceeds. The goal then becomes improving for the sake of competing for guaranteed cash rather than just the chance of it being possible.

But everyone is a freaking baby about subscription fees and challenging the status quo. They hate the idea of paying a flat $15/mo but have no problem making a $20 deposit a day every time they run out of ammo.
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This is not an uncommon pattern in the general space of liberty-utility tradeoffs. Folks hate the idea of arranged marriages but have no problem with marriages. Folks are on board with sex but hate the idea of being given ultimatums to have sex. Folks don't mind speaking but dislike being told what they are allowed to say. Perhaps forcibly imposing the narrowly-defined payment model tightly optimized to maximize Entropians' returns is the closer analogy to treating everyone like a "freaking baby."
 
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A
Joat said:
The basic rule for EU is that a day fresh noob shouldn't be able to produce same outcome as a skilled player, even though
a skilled player means both the ingame skills and also good knowledge what to do and not.
If that is met then MA can create whatever they want. :)
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Amen to that (y)
 
Svako said:
Depends on what you hunt, I used L only for 5 years and was able to sustain it with minimal investment and slowly upgrade my gear to my pretty decent high end loot 2.0 setup. Maybe choose what you hunt more carefully.

Learning the game to be able to survive in it and level up in parallel, so you are not stuck for 20 years hunting level 20 mobs is the effort I'm talking about. Doesn't matter, I'm not here to argue, I'm sure you know what is best for ALL players and we should ALL be forced to play the same correct way.
Having a choice is apparently not a choice here.

BTW, what exactly are you proposing anyway? Are you searching for a model where everyone profits? High levels, low levels, everyone is happy, we all play for free, withdraw something now and then... who will pay for it? Mind Ark? This is MMORCE game (practically PvP), maybe don't play it if you don't like the RCE part of it.
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  • UL enters the game through crafting (L) Blueprints that cost different materials found universe-wide as well as crafted items. (L) Blueprints of UL items that drop are 'rare' to 'utra rare' to impossible drops depending on the UL item. (They will drop from craftings/hunting/mining.)
  • MindArk stops releasing UL through EVENTS, TOKENS and VENDORS.
  • World drops continue to be a possibility for ANY level of play except ultra noobs. (Talking <less than 30 hit in a profession to not be considered 'gambling'). World Drops for UL are UNIQUE and cannot be crafted.
  • Trade Terminal weapons are ELIMINATED and instead become crafted via (L) Blueprints. Materials required being common/easily accessible.
  • Daily Missions for tokens and Daily token vendor are ELIMINATED. (Vendor guns start showing up as craftable (L) BPS)
  • Existing UL receives options for upgrades that have high chance of failure, failure DOES NOT destroy UL and there is a return for failures.
    • Old Level 100 weapons can be used as materials that when refined together lead to random upgrade stat odds.
    • Rare materials can be used to upgrade weapons
    • etc...
  • Residues, Animal oils etc... can all be refined into 'bio' fuel that can be used in vehicles. (bio fuel can also be a refined crafting material)
  • Planet mined materials are separate from space mined materials space receiving its own unique materials.
  • ALLOW FOR DUAL WIELD of non-two handed weapon types.

Loot 3.0

Blend 1.0 with 2.0. Keep everything loot 2.0 brought in but add world drops and make looter skills or other professions increase your odds at world drops.
Have sciences play a roll in loot composition and returns.

Use Skills, Professions in the game to affect loot quality not just weapons!!!!

MAKE SCANNING GREAT AGAIN!!!! in Loot 3.0.

Scanners should have a place with increased loot return and loot quality. If an avatar scans a mob they know more about it
so therefore they should get some kind of BOOST from that especially with how it is affected by investigator/science professions.

SCANNING SHOULD RETURN VALUE TO THE LOOT POOL. NOT be a total LOSS.

Tons of potential for scanners they are far under utilized and could be a huge asset.

Market:
Lower Auction costs and make it flat costs that do not increase with the value of the item(s).

The Obvious
Remove BOTTING, AFK play (INCLUDING CRAFTING and MINING), Make Hunting/Mining/Crafting have more depth.

That's pretty much all I got right now.
 
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shaun117 said:
L gear sucks ass. Most of it. Only people that want to run that shit are broke boys or noobs, stimulate the economy in other areas if you got bright ideas that do not harm the players aka investors who have kept mindark operating for these 2 decades by investing large peds into gear. It sure wasnt joe blow burning his 1 or 2 armatrix on ambu a week.
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You mean those same folks who ran the game economy into the ground and sent our little universe further into obscurity? What's the active population around here again? Yeah, it's just those bag holders left...

No problem seeing that game die and an (L) economy emerge from the ashes.

They weren't needed this entire time, it was just the easy route for MA. Keeping the retards with more money than brains happy and they will fill up MA retirement accounts.

UL is a cancer. It eats away at markup until it's all gone.

You can make (L) carrots for those looking for big cash prizes. UL is absolutely unnecessary. It's actually harmful.

If UL existed IRL there would be world wars fought because of how insanely powerful of an advantage it has over every other thing in existence.
 
The Great Adventurer said:
You mean those same folks who ran the game economy into the ground and sent our little universe further into obscurity? What's the active population around here again? Yeah, it's just those bag holders left...

No problem seeing that game die and an (L) economy emerge from the ashes.

They weren't needed this entire time, it was just the easy route for MA. Keeping the retards with more money than brains happy and they will fill up MA retirement accounts.

UL is a cancer. It eats away at markup until it's all gone.

You can make (L) carrots for those looking for big cash prizes. UL is absolutely unnecessary. It's actually harmful.

If UL existed IRL there would be world wars fought because of how insanely powerful of an advantage it has over every other thing in existence.
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Egh... You can buy an antique mechanical pocket watch from the 1700's. A little repair and it will be good to go.

Not seeing any Wars being fought over them or Cast Iron cookware.

On the flip side you can buy a piece of shit digital watch from a dollar store but it may not last but a few years.

UL v.s. (L) - Repairable v.s. consumable.
 
Creo said:
Egh... You can buy an antique mechanical pocket watch from the 1700's. A little repair and it will be good to go.

Not seeing any Wars being fought over them or Cast Iron cookware.

On the flip side you can buy a piece of shit digital watch from a dollar store but it may not last but a few years.

UL v.s. (L) - Repairable v.s. consumable.
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Those pocket watches and pans still degrade, just slower pace. They can also be damaged and you need more materials than USD to repair them. That metal needs to be mined, it needs to be smelted, it needs to be worked, there's a whole process.

UL in Entropia is quite different. Once it's there it never degrades, it never needs new materials for repair, it's forever...
 
The Great Adventurer said:
Those pocket watches and pans still degrade, just slower pace. They can also be damaged and you need more materials than USD to repair them. That metal needs to be mined, it needs to be smelted, it needs to be worked, there's a whole process.

UL in Entropia is quite different. Once it's there it never degrades, it never needs new materials for repair, it's forever...
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UL degrades? It needs to be repaired I would call that decay/degrading.

A broken antique pocket watch even 'degraded' still has a value a consumable piece of shit dollar store pocket watch doesnt.

UL - Well I can agree with that. It only has a cost to repair. Maybe MA should loop crafters into item repair.

I would still buy UL even if that was the case.
 
Jan van de Ven said:
Yes the UL users will do that
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We don't have the ability to disturb your auction house purchase of L items, just do you know.
You can buy and use as many as you want.
 
Creo said:
UL degrades? It needs to be repaired I would call that decay/degrading.

A broken antique pocket watch even 'degraded' still has a value a consumable piece of shit dollar store pocket watch doesnt.

UL - Well I can agree with that. It only has a cost to repair. Maybe MA should loop crafters into item repair.

I would still buy UL even if that was the case.
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I was just making the technical point that metals rust, plastic degrades, not even diamonds last forever but items in Entropia do!

UL needing materials to repair it would help.

UL being account bound would help.

UL should always be at a disadvantage in some way to compensate for it's insane advantages everywhere else.
 
The Great Adventurer said:
I was just making the technical point that metals rust, plastic degrades, not even diamonds last forever but items in Entropia do!

UL needing materials to repair it would help.

UL being account bound would help.

UL should always be at a disadvantage in some way to compensate for it's insane advantages everywhere else.
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Nah. I'm cool with UL requiring materials to repair but if they were bound then this game can fuck off. I would quit.

You are literally removing financial assets from the game. What is next? Make Apartments, Shops, LA's account bound too?

Account bound Motherships? UL Sleipners? Where does it end?
 
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The Great Adventurer said:
I was just making the technical point that metals rust, plastic degrades, not even diamonds last forever but items in Entropia do!

UL needing materials to repair it would help.

UL being account bound would help.

UL should always be at a disadvantage in some way to compensate for it's insane advantages everywhere else.
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Isn't this just the role currency already plays in free markets? You can buy a movie for a higher price and it will likely outlive you, or you can rent it for a lower price. I don't see that you need to inject quality defects into the for sale version or legislate against its resale for the system to function properly.

Items in Entropia don't literally last forever. Eventually they will end up in abandoned accounts, power crept and TT'd decades later, etc.
 
The Great Adventurer said:
I was just making the technical point that metals rust, plastic degrades, not even diamonds last forever but items in Entropia do!

UL needing materials to repair it would help.

UL being account bound would help.

UL should always be at a disadvantage in some way to compensate for it's insane advantages everywhere else.
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Careful, with such great ideas like this people will think you work for mindark.
 
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