Question: Loot boxes chance %

ProActive Mango

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Other game that have lootboxes have to reveal the % chance of every drop, has mindark ever provided % on lootboxes for amps, rings and so on?
 

Msturlese

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There is not such disclose in any official post

Remember that there is NO GAMBLING involved because TT Value of content is 10 ped that is 1 usd = cost of key.
the rest is MU and it is a value assigned by players and not from MA

for teh conveniience to open toward selling boxes (considering unlimited financial power so not sensitive to save or pay 1 dollar, just math)
empirical evidence at current amplificator prices points to about 2.05..2.15 ped as a BEP selling amps

On different kind of Boxes...
1. Xsmas best of all due to candy for mid level players (candy has very low tt value)
2. easter best for high level shooters (eggs cost but have insane power)
3. worst are halloween boxes for the useless skeleton costume that is 10 ped worth and prevent MU loot events i would say 1.25 to 1.50 ped expected return on those
 

kingofaces

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Mining strongboxes at least give categories:

  • Common: Universal Ammo, Lysterium, Belkar, Melchi Water, Crude Oil.
  • Uncommon: Caldorite, Iron, Ares Head, Magerian Mist, HyperStim 5mg.
  • Rare: Ignisium, Durulium, Gold, Pyrite, Cave Sap, Lumis Leach, Devil's Tail, Binary Fluid, HyperStim 10mg.
  • Epic: Rugaritz Ore, Dunkel Particle, Angel Scales, Hansidian Rock, HyperStim 15mg, Ziplex P20 (L).
  • Legendary: Ziplex P30 (L), Ziplex P50 (L), Ziplex P85 (L), Ziplex P160 (L).
  • Mythic: Level 1 Finder Amplifier, Level 2 Finder Amplifier, Level 3 Finder Amplifier, Level 4 Finder Amplifier.

It's possible you could use those bins to roughly describe the other strongbox items and get an idea for similar colors or vice versa if someone was going to do testing to determine % chance.
 
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Hego Damask

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3. worst are halloween boxes for the useless skeleton costume that is 10 ped worth and prevent MU loot events i would say 1.25 to 1.50 ped expected return on those

depends to who, i can imagine for some crafter gambler its the HW the best, when the ring is worth to be looted, because of the clothes he can tt instead of the UA he need to cycle.
 

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It's possible you could use those bins to roughly describe the other strongbox items and get an idea for similar colors or vice versa if someone was going to do testing to determine % chance.

This is not a matter of things where we players should need to spend money on trying to hit darts on the broad side of a barn to figure out.


Mindark tells us what we can get from a lootbox, they should tell us what % chances we can expect those items to drop.


Borderline every game does this where a "lootbox" is involved now. And Mindark's lootboxes, already work very similar to another game where the company has stated the % chances of X Y Z, as they should, leaving players only need to apply simple math to figure out the remaining % chances for specifics. That game would be CS:GO where investing in skins, is a much bigger business than the pinkly wink stuff we "invest" in EU :p


We, players, should in no shape or form here be expected to pay millions to figure out numbers that "may or may not" be somewhat "accurate". In laymans terms we don't need to spend a dime to deduct that getting a seasonal ring, is the rarest thing from seasonal boxes.


But later times we do see a clear cut behaviour in boxes to a point where people ask about stealth nerfs here on PCF, its without a doubt that some boxes seem to simply sway different ways in what their potential loot is, IE, what boxes yields best result for samps, pills, pure ammo, etc. Meaning that no 2 boxes, act the same. They simply can't act the same due to the composition of what they can drop.

But if you want pills, and you know halloween boxes has a very high chance of dropping pills over any other box, you will aim and open halloween boxes to maximize the chance of getting pills. You will avoid for example Christmas boxes, if it turns out the chance for pills in those is lower, but instead it sways more towards amps. etc etc etc.


In no way shape or form, should players try to deduct the drop rate % of these boxes, as it is something Mindark already knows, and should simply tell us. I would go as far as suggesting that no player should even remotely think about starting to do so. It is a waste of money for information that is pure casino gambling, that we should know the odds of before we get into said casino. We can discuss hunting, mining, crafting till we get blue, since factors of skill matter there, but lootboxes are pure 100% serotonin casino clicks. And even casinos will tell you the % chances of winning what prices....



PS Hey mindark if you do publish this info, like all the peers in the gaming world, a RNG lootbox, is suddenly not "rng" anymore, and you circumvent a lot of laws, enabling you to even sell them in places where "RNG lootboxes" are not allowed to sell.

Disclaimer: I am not against "lootboxes" in games, but can find them tedious. In many cases however I find them OK, and they can have their place, i really don't give a fuck. The only quarrel I do have with them is the form we do have in EU, where its all cloak and dagger. To me, that is only done to scam and sham your userbase into predatory behaviours of making money rather than having them be a integral part of a experience which they would be in EU. This is not a mob we shoot, where many factors count in on the result, this is not a probe we drop, where skills and factors matter, this is not crafting slots where still some factors matter. This is pure, random, aim into the headwind and try to piss hard enough to not get spratyed. If we at least knew the numbers and could aim a bit, we would know to not take aim and piss straight into the headwind, we would aim it to the side. Hitting the target that is behind us that we can't see would still be a matter of wether or not the wind would take your wee to its target or not, but at least you knew if youd wanan hit the left or right target by turning to either side :D
 

jetsina

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Mindark already knows, and should simply tell us.
From their point of view this is probably undesirable for various reasons. As already mentioned further up, EU boxes generally appear to be accepted legally as NOT gambling because although this is an RCE, exactly that point means that the tt value of a key equating to the tt value of each box results in no tt loss and no (direct) cash loss. But it's a grey area as I understand it, as ammo must be cycled...
If they told us the odds for boxes, they would be under pressure to reveal the rarity odds all over the place, and maybe even have to rework the loot pool workings so that any item could in theory/programming drop at any time from any box/event (and not just when added/available in the pool).

Also, it appears to work for MA, so I have at least some understanding for them not changing it. It does, however, mean that I do not take part in various more 'risky' activities, and maybe many many more players feel the same way. It is hard to tell...

I don't do boxes because I am unhappy that I would have to withdraw peds first in order to effectively use peds to buy the keys. AFAIK, MA doesn't even allow money to be deposited or transferred as a lump sum to a shop account for use as players desire. If they did, then I probably would withdraw peds to such a shop account and start using the shop. I'd even accept a 'transfer' fee and a time delay, as with withdrawals ointo RL, but MA have shown absolutely no interest at all in such an idea.
 

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From their point of view this is probably undesirable for various reasons. As already mentioned further up, EU boxes generally appear to be accepted legally as NOT gambling because although this is an RCE, exactly that point means that the tt value of a key equating to the tt value of each box results in no tt loss and no (direct) cash loss. But it's a grey area as I understand it, as ammo must be cycled...
If they told us the odds for boxes, they would be under pressure to reveal the rarity odds all over the place, and maybe even have to rework the loot pool workings so that any item could in theory/programming drop at any time from any box/event (and not just when added/available in the pool).

Also, it appears to work for MA, so I have at least some understanding for them not changing it. It does, however, mean that I do not take part in various more 'risky' activities, and maybe many many more players feel the same way. It is hard to tell...

I don't do boxes because I am unhappy that I would have to withdraw peds first in order to effectively use peds to buy the keys. AFAIK, MA doesn't even allow money to be deposited or transferred as a lump sum to a shop account for use as players desire. If they did, then I probably would withdraw peds to such a shop account and start using the shop. I'd even accept a 'transfer' fee and a time delay, as with withdrawals ointo RL, but MA have shown absolutely no interest at all in such an idea.

From Their view, we could go back and forth about what who where how if when, kind of viewpoints they have untill kingdom come :p But id wager its fairly simple, its purely about money.

While it sounds incredibly negative, and it can be, the term for it would simply be that its easier to be predatory about these things if you have certain things hidden. If we don't know what boxes to go for more than "feel" if we want pills, chances are they can prey more and earn more by simply not telling us which boxes which we can go for. In reality, it would likely and has shown in cases before (take CS) logically lead to increased earnings as people instead of being cautioous spending a little dipping toes, users know what they want and when knowing, they feel they can increase their odds by going balls deep in the right case. I mentioned in a different thread how CSGo lets players know what is in a case, what can drop, and the % chances of it. If it was all random just "this is what you can get from this box gl" people would still try, but far less would bother as without knowing is the chance of why bother.

They would not be preasured to tell us rarity all over, i mean sure some people probably will moan about that but id say that part would be largely "who cares" compared to what it is right now.

Hunting
Mining
Crafting

all have "skills" and variables that tie into them, its not a simple "stuff things in get something back". A lot of factors count in to what you get back. What tools you use, where you apply said tools, when you apply said tools, a lot goes into it more than just "opening a box you bought from the webstore". It is in no way relatable, so EU making it relatable makes it even more despicable :p

Who "accepts it" as not gambling? If that is the consensus of the players of EU then yikes, if Mindark said it, even bigger yikes, that would just be "WE INVESTIGATED OURSELVES AND FOUND NO WRONG DOING! :D" . I would say any lootbox in any game that does not tell the user opening said box the value chances of getting something, is pure 100% gambling, no ifs or buts, its gambling end of. I'm still not necessarily against it, but I don't want to beat around the bush and debate wether a duck is a duck, if it quacks, its most certainly a duck, and i still like ducks :p And keep in mind some even when knowing the odds, will call it gambling. Casinos do up front tell you the chances of winning X Y Z prices, and what not and that is also still gambling. So "accepting" that this specific thing, in EU is not gambling, makes very little sense.

The latter is something that is not related but also fairly relevant, ill just leave it and agree that it would be nice if say, you have peds, you can then use said peds to buy stuff from the webstore.

If the game is a RCE, and PEDS essentially is a "real currency" its almost odd that we cannot use it let alone in the creators own house :)
 

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I'm going to ramble for a minute here. Not to argue any specific point, but to address a couple of the issues with this. I don't think MA have ever stated anywhere that a strongbox HAS any fixed odds, and in the current system, there are several reasons for this.

Like I said I'm not trying to argue any particular point about "should" and to be clear, this system could be changed. I'll try not to get distracted with it in this post, but the things about gambling and MU hold as true as ever. You are blindly grabbing from what's available, but your grab will pull a specific, fixed amount of (TT) value and after that they can wash their hands of it. I'm going to lean into how this is a distribution channel, not a lottery. And a couple of reasons that it's better/easier for us this way.

First of all when they release(d) most of these boxes, they couldn't really have fixed odds. This is because of the ways in which the boxes are acquired. This also gets directly to the "lottery ticket" metaphor - those sort of tickets have a fixed number of prizes, and a fixed number of tickets.

MindArk does not currently appear to be dealing with anything like a fixed number of tickets. So the prizes can't be IN the boxes. Because if they were, there could be any number of problems. What if nobody ever opens a top prize? How many vintage 2014/5 Classified Strongboxes are in game? We could still be waiting on one or more of those original rings. blaming for having never added it. They don't want that. They want it in game. We want it in game.

All seasonal or unlimited boxes are like this. Also how would you feel if you opened a halloween box right now and got "Halloween Ring 2016" ? IDK.

So they don't know how many boxes will be generated, or sold. They may or may not be controlling some like mining boxes or not. They can't tell beforehand how many mayhem boxes will be created. They're still selling boxes named "Classified Strongbox". Someone could literally buy 500k of those tomorrow and start cracking them open.

So saying they're going to have X number of boxes, and X number of prizes, and here's your odds, isn't really possible the way they're using (appear to be using) the strongbox system to spread the stuff around. They could drop UL mining amps directly in SOOTO but I bet there are a good number of small to mid level players that legitimately have a better chance with the box.

Plus what are they going to do if a ton of people show up and all the seasonal boxes are given out on the 4th day of mayhem? A bunch of people would LOL (or cry) and stuff those boxes in storage too. Maybe none of the rings would ever drop. All around bad.

All right, if you can't have a fixed number of boxes, then what about literally the RNG chance is in each box, right?

Not in the RCE, no. And while there is discussion here, nobody who is in game trying to turn an actual profit wants this. Nor anybody who has any other motive to "protect the system". Now I'm not gonna lie I would love to see 100 UL mining amps drop. But at the current population levels, etc... I think it might be an actual tragedy. It would certainly kick a few people in the pants, possibly to the point that they rant about lawsuits, ruination, etc...

Yes it's far fetched but at .01% drop chance, a hundred could drop in a row. True RNG, or even honestly near it. And we could still end up never seeing certain "promised" loots. This method (fixed percentage drop table per box) is also very risky if you want to make sure that the items you are adding actually reach the player base, much less at any sort of controlled rate.

Things could be done differently. Boxes could be issued in sets. Seasonal boxes become annual seasonal boxes, etc... so I'm not trying to argue anybody's points about what they "should" be doing. Just rambling on a couple of points that come up reading the discussion. Possible answers to "why don't they ...".

for some crafter gambler its the HW the best

Hey actually thank you for this point. If I see these super cheap I would be more interested in buying them now. The clothes feel disappointing but you are correct it's 100% TT no cycle. I always feel bad refining the pills but can't be bothered to sell the small amounts I get. It means unless I get something great I rather get 10 PED UA. (please no PET COLLARS).

I always edit, I'm sorry :lol:

In my state, when all the top prizes in a scratch game are won, they take back the tickets. Even if it's the first day. Heh just imagine if MA said "that's enough amps" and just replaced the rest of the mining strongboxes in game with TT value?
 
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Mika

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For those interested in how CSGO went about telling players how the chances were

Now keep in mind that in CSGO, in a sense like EU there is always more than what you see with things, and the best example would be to use a term like i've done before in that opening cases and hoping for X outcome, lets say a butterlfy knife, then you know what cases you should go for to get that, and then you need to figure out what pattern you want, and then figure out which case has the best case scanario for that.

What I specifically want MA to do, that they should have done a long friggin time ago, that we as players really should expect, is for them to do like valve did in that they publish the chances info.

Because then we, the players, can in turn just use amth and probability to math out the rest of where to go withough necessarily having to test it manually. You can do that too if you are insane, i guess, but math, calculations and simulations would be able to do that for us.


Yes it's far fetched but at .01% drop chance, a hundred could drop in a row. True RNG, or even honestly near it. And we could still end up never seeing certain "promised" loots. This method (fixed percentage drop table per box) is also very risky if you want to make sure that the items you are adding actually reach the player base, much less at any sort of controlled rate.

Just becasue it could happen, does not mean it can happen. if you can somehow hit 0.01/100^100 then congratulations you've restarded the universe or some shit :p

Ill use CSGO cases again as a quickie since i do enjoy cases in games and stuff, but the chance of getting a knife, any knife, is 0.027. Almost 3 times as much as your example, and there are tens of thousands of people spam opening cases constantly in CSGO, Eu is not a piss puddle compared. Yet everytime someone opens 2 in a row, not 100, but 2. Two. its a phenomal thing that blows up all over the place, because the chance of even just 2, is so abysmally low that it makes no sense really accounting for it being in any way a regular happening.

If I were to drag a fat number straight out of the air, my guess is that to get a ring, any ring at all in EU, is proabbly around 1% maybe more, ubt where CSGO has patterns so do we in EU, just like you can "holy shit i got a knife!" you can "YAY I GOT A RING.... oh its athenic modified :<" when you account in the probability of getting a seasonal ring, suddenly its like in CS where getting a good pattern, becomes even more daunting then to just get it in the first place :)
 

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0% off-wave

Nope. Everything is stacking but small chance someone wont open on a wave. Tho, i have friends who open some boxes and sometimes they get 3 amps in a row.
 
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Atrax

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Right there are lots of things they definitely could be doing. Some would make it more enticing. And maybe those odds would restart the universe but in planning you have to at least acknowledge "worst case". On the forum you can just exaggerate a little ;)


As it is this is actually one of the least "gambly" activities in EU, "on the books". It's all plus for the player, at this time. And the transaction is "you pay 10 PED for a key, you get 10 PED TT". Hunting, mining, crafting, nothing with a "chance of good loot" offers that.

There's not any other way in EU that I'm aware of where you can hit HoF, even ATH levels (but pure MV) of profit, and still have a minimum actually guaranteed PED return on a per action basis. As someone who sometimes uses keys to depo, I can definitely tell you that this is why I don't mind.

As for anyone else, to each their own. I'll make equal or more PED on 50 keys as a $50 UA depo. Worst case I still have to cycle but straight PEDs get taxed anyways.

If MA implemented other systems I'd likely participate. But it's a different system, so straight comparisons to systems with different constraints are patchy.
 
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From my experience of opening 16k boxes ive looted 7 rare items so id assume the safe side 2k boxes per rare ring,token (maybe my luck is a lot or maybe these are similar events others have experienced) as for amps during mayhem the droprate was low but id assume it was due to mass box opening(i was one of them)
Off mayhem boxes drop about 1 amp 50-100 boxes
 

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Okay i hear you all saying you get 10ped value from the boxes. So lets make it happen that we only loot Uni ammo and fireworks from now on from the boxes sence its only 10ped value we get. Then we should add for every 100k boxes opened we add 1 event ring to the lootpool for ppl to loot in the mayhem instances.

Yeah, i dint think you would like that ... so dont say its only 10ped and they dont have to disclose the odds for looting rares in the lootboxes.
 

Atrax

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So lets make it happen that we only loot Uni ammo and fireworks from now on from the boxes sence its only 10ped value we get.

If you're not interested in the pills and other treats, you can just buy UA. This replaces the depo fees with the need to (hunt) cycle once.

I'm not being obtuse here. Nor any others who repeatedly point this out. To gamble, you have to have a chance to lose. A risk.

Strong boxes don't offer that.
 

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Long story short but as i sugested in past maybe its all about keys wave, not about boxes

While many swear to the "wave thing" on boxes to a point where it "cannot be anything else". If true, it is beyond bad.

If a strongbox is adverted as being able to have a chance to obtain any of the items presented, then everytime, no matter what direction someones asshole is alligned to the stars, should have a chance to drop _all_ the items adverted at a certain chance. Odds vary depending on what rarity or what not. But lets not be naive enough to think that would ruin a market because someone would open 10000 boxes, fucking let them open 10000 boxes, if they can afford it let them. I like to take the piss on people being rich and always pulling the "just be rich" card at others but if they are that rich, and want to open boxes and gamble, let them.

Its like a big pie chart lottery wheel you spin, each time you spin, albeit small, you can clearly see that there is a chance to obtain all the prices, visualize said wheel having a 1/4 chance to obtain:

A: a car
B: a snickers bar
C: a small bag of skittles
D: one pair of socks

Now the company does not tell you the chances of each item. But we who will be spinning the wheel, simply presume that obviously, the pie size fo the snickers, the skittles, and the socks, are HUGE, and the chances for the car, is very slim. That is just logic, these would never be equal, and the car is clearly going to be rare.

in EU's case, _IF_ waves is a thing, means that they advertise the above, even if the car has a low chance. But several times a day or week or whatever the "wave" would be. They simply do not use that fucking wheel to spin the prices. The _Actuall_ wheel you get will simply have a a 1/3 chance to obtain a fucking snickers, a small bag of skittles, or a pair of godamn socks. The car isnt even on there most of the time even if its advertised.



So people who keep saying its waves, its fine, just watch for the waves. you are activly accepting false advertising, and you endorse it as OK. Knowing it is scamming 100% people who are not watching waves. And if it comes a time where everyone is "watching for a wave" it will scam you, me and everyone else as well because no one would open shit and we would all be waiting for waves untill someone gives in and either gets scammed, or not.

So before endorsing the wave bullshit further, if it truly is waves, we can go to whatever consumer organ in your country and claim false advertisment as it is no were listed in any way shape or form that the rings, are only obtainable at certain times. Mindark would be liable to pay out a lot in refunds to players who have spent money on what is clearly false advertisement.


And before you think "oh that would never happen". It has, many times, I was able to be and part take in the fun of when Kakao Games decided to pull some false advertising that was even more vague than this with Black Desert Online a couple of years ago. They had to pay back people a lot of money. And in part was no longer able to publish the game and at that time started negotiations to have the owner company take over instead. And it cemented the game itself as a trashy game that did scammy things. a fair amount play it still to this day but they have since now started to openly advert these things in advance. And people do not want to touch Kakao Games published stuff with a 1000 ft pole anymore even if half a decade has passed. False advertising is worse than anything else a company can do.

The wave bullshit on lootboxes, if its true, has to stop. if it is true, and does not stop, better start godamn advertising it that "rings are only obtainable during X times of the day" or whatever reason they have for doing that.
 

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While many swear to the "wave thing" on boxes to a point where it "cannot be anything else". If true, it is beyond bad.

If a strongbox is adverted as being able to have a chance to obtain any of the items presented, then everytime, no matter what direction someones asshole is alligned to the stars, should have a chance to drop _all_ the items adverted at a certain chance. Odds vary depending on what rarity or what not. But lets not be naive enough to think that would ruin a market because someone would open 10000 boxes, fucking let them open 10000 boxes, if they can afford it let them. I like to take the piss on people being rich and always pulling the "just be rich" card at others but if they are that rich, and want to open boxes and gamble, let them.

Its like a big pie chart lottery wheel you spin, each time you spin, albeit small, you can clearly see that there is a chance to obtain all the prices, visualize said wheel having a 1/4 chance to obtain:

A: a car
B: a snickers bar
C: a small bag of skittles
D: one pair of socks

Now the company does not tell you the chances of each item. But we who will be spinning the wheel, simply presume that obviously, the pie size fo the snickers, the skittles, and the socks, are HUGE, and the chances for the car, is very slim. That is just logic, these would never be equal, and the car is clearly going to be rare.

in EU's case, _IF_ waves is a thing, means that they advertise the above, even if the car has a low chance. But several times a day or week or whatever the "wave" would be. They simply do not use that fucking wheel to spin the prices. The _Actuall_ wheel you get will simply have a a 1/3 chance to obtain a fucking snickers, a small bag of skittles, or a pair of godamn socks. The car isnt even on there most of the time even if its advertised.



So people who keep saying its waves, its fine, just watch for the waves. you are activly accepting false advertising, and you endorse it as OK. Knowing it is scamming 100% people who are not watching waves. And if it comes a time where everyone is "watching for a wave" it will scam you, me and everyone else as well because no one would open shit and we would all be waiting for waves untill someone gives in and either gets scammed, or not.

So before endorsing the wave bullshit further, if it truly is waves, we can go to whatever consumer organ in your country and claim false advertisment as it is no were listed in any way shape or form that the rings, are only obtainable at certain times. Mindark would be liable to pay out a lot in refunds to players who have spent money on what is clearly false advertisement.


And before you think "oh that would never happen". It has, many times, I was able to be and part take in the fun of when Kakao Games decided to pull some false advertising that was even more vague than this with Black Desert Online a couple of years ago. They had to pay back people a lot of money. And in part was no longer able to publish the game and at that time started negotiations to have the owner company take over instead. And it cemented the game itself as a trashy game that did scammy things. a fair amount play it still to this day but they have since now started to openly advert these things in advance. And people do not want to touch Kakao Games published stuff with a 1000 ft pole anymore even if half a decade has passed. False advertising is worse than anything else a company can do.

The wave bullshit on lootboxes, if its true, has to stop. if it is true, and does not stop, better start godamn advertising it that "rings are only obtainable during X times of the day" or whatever reason they have for doing that.
Wave shit on normal loot has to stop too. Annoying af that you have 0% chance for "rare" drops on mobs a majority of the time.
 

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Wave shit on normal loot has to stop too. Annoying af that you have 0% chance for "rare" drops on mobs a majority of the time.

"waves" in general are just ass. They serve nothing to no one more than making the game equally shit for all :p

But they don't directly "advertise" mobs as such "go hunt feff pit, they have X Y Z items! :D" thats not what we'll see MA doing, that is stuff the players have to figure out.

Lootboxes are advertised and proudly presented to contain X Y Z items, and no where does it state that said items are only available at certain times (not counting seasonal rings lasting from season to season), and completely unavailable at others. Which makes it fairly straight forward False Advertisment. And the scary thing is that the big box fish are so crafty at opening them now that, the boxes having waves, seems fairly given sadly.

So pointing at lootboxes, when lootboxes have a known chance, and it gets proven that those chances are legit what the company claims, in turn both players, economy and company surrounding does quickly benefit from that. *cough* skin market CSGO *cough*. While not perfect if Valve had "waves" or "certain times of the day only" that flucutated and no one knew. No one would trust valve or pay them to open cases.

So it makes 0 sense to advertise something, and serve the custommer something else. without even having a microscopic text telling the user about it
 

Atrax

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I think honestly your time would be better spent advocating for something new added to EU.

None of the existing strong boxes (that I'm aware of, still not sure where some of them come from) actually have "fixed odds" of "winning" something, and they can't. If for nothing else than the fact that the loot that is inside of them occasionally changes, and the number of them in game does fluctuate in both directions.

I'm not honestly sure if I want what you're talking about in EU or not, but I don't think they can have it. At this time the contents of a strongbox are basically just "door prizes for depositors" and MV is a player's game. They're giving you a chance at whatever's on the pile and if you understand how the game works (whether you like it or not) you can improve the chance of getting what you want. Especially if you don't care what the item is and you're just looking for a specific quality (assuming "rarity" in your case).

In order to provide fixed odds on a given set of boxes, they would have to run things very differently, and TBH besides the legal hurdles (they could never have anything that meets the qualifications of, for instance, a raffle or some scratchers) It's not something that - IMO - a lot of people want added to EU.

It's not that people are missing your point, for the most part. It's that you seem to be trying to fit things into a very specific perspective, and that's not working because that's not what's actually going on.

I'm pretty sure none of the examples stated in this thread include boxes where you:
  • Buy a box with variable game/system value contents (game currency)
  • Sell those contents directly back to the company (convert to fiat IN GAME)
  • Withdraw those fiat dollars back to your bank

Directly to and from the company, no other users. No obfuscating layers. This is almost strongboxes, with the difference that the output value is fixed, not variable. This is a HUGE (technical) difference in the nature of the activity, and the incentives to do it.

As it is, they're already so close that they stopped selling them to their own countrymen. IF EU just starts selling people lottery tickets with a withdrawal system in place, they're gone in a minute.
 

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EDIT: well heres a wall of text :D

TL : DR: We overall just just want and expect more clarity. If lootboxes have a "wave" to them, mindark should tell the players about it so that we can expect it and know what we buy, before we spend money to buy it.

And the more we talk about it and put a flashlight on it the more likely it is that Mindark will do that, and in turn they would really only make more money as it would meet more countries gambling laws, and make us the players likely buy more as we could truly target a box for a reward without getting shafted trying to invest in something.


I think honestly your time would be better spent advocating for something new added to EU.

None of the existing strong boxes (that I'm aware of, still not sure where some of them come from) actually have "fixed odds" of "winning" something, and they can't. If for nothing else than the fact that the loot that is inside of them occasionally changes, and the number of them in game does fluctuate in both directions.

They are adverted as having the items they do. And the loot inside of them changes which is true but then that is actually advertised and Mindark does tell people about it. There is no question about "what you can" get in a box, in a viewpoint of what is told to you before you buy it.

The problem lies with that how the boxes seem to work from a lot of other peoples testing, that i guess im advocating for(?) in this instance. Is that what you see advertised, is not the product you get.

If you buy a car, that is on a poster, on the picture it shows the car having all doors and windows intact. But when you actually GET your car, it suddenly misses a front window, but not always. You just have to accept cars produced on Mondays, are missing a front window, cars made on mondays would have a missing side mirror, wednesday would have a missing tire. etc

then if you are lucky. and you get the car that is produced between 15:00 and 15:05 on a friday afternoon, only then do you get the actuall car on the poster.

Waves mean that for strongboxes we straight up get scammed most of the time, and only at certain times, that no one tells you about you have to just guess, do you get what you pay for. and that is not good. For anyone. (Disclaimer, yes some people obviously know about waves, myself including, but a few people knowing, does not mean that its ok. This is something that does not rely on skill, it is not advertised, you buy something, and get something else.)

I'm not honestly sure if I want what you're talking about in EU or not, but I don't think they can have it. At this time the contents of a strongbox are basically just "door prizes for depositors" and MV is a player's game. They're giving you a chance at whatever's on the pile and if you understand how the game works (whether you like it or not) you can improve the chance of getting what you want. Especially if you don't care what the item is and you're just looking for a specific quality (assuming "rarity" in your case).

Its doable in other games its doable in EU. Entropia is not a unique sharade of intriquate systems and unique algorithms that exist no where else. Mindark has even contrary to popular belief, not re-invented the wheel and created electricity again :p

People over complicate just about everything related to this game, which MA earns a lot on, and that is fine, for loot etc, and where skills and factors count in, that honestly just makes sense. Even if its far more simplistic than people make it out to be.

But for lootboxes, or strongboxes as they are named in EU, you click a button, you pay for something that should have fixed odds, or reliable odds making it possible to obtain what is advertised. But due to the mechanism behind them, you do not get what you pay for, and most of the time what is advertised is in no shape or form available.

Yes, people always say that you "get back a lot so one should expect it". One can have that viewpoint ill not argue against that, but I don't think we should just accept getting something else than what we pay for.


a
It's not that people are missing your point, for the most part. It's that you seem to be trying to fit things into a very specific perspective, and that's not working because that's not what's actually going on.

I'm pretty sure none of the examples stated in this thread include boxes where you:
  • Buy a box with variable game/system value contents (game currency)
  • Sell those contents directly back to the company (convert to fiat IN GAME)
  • Withdraw those fiat dollars back to your bank

I might miss interpret you, but maybe? I'm not trying to really get any one to read what i say and pitchfork against MA :p if anything, like i've stated before i do find lootboxes amusing, and not only in EU, I love MTX in general, i'm a black sheep in todays gaming market where one should hate these things. I find that they have a place, and they can work. IT really depends on a lot of factors wether or not they work.

But in EU's case, strongboxes is what you will gain the most on to open if you want to deposit, the system works so that not opening boxes, makes you very much not so smart. So that is step 1, it sort of forces users to "oh you want to deposit? well the most efficient way is doing this!" kind of deal. (I'm keeping in mind most playing normal folk here, if you are depoing to buy a 50k ++++ gun then obviously boxes is not the way to go.)


If it was like above, and the chances of obtaining the items worked like most lootboxes in most games that are afloat today do, that would be OK. But by looking at it the odds vary. Instantly making it very much, not ok anymore.


As it is, they're already so close that they stopped selling them to their own countrymen. IF EU just starts selling people lottery tickets with a withdrawal system in place, they're gone in a minute.

EU is already selling lottery tickets like you explained :p In order to do gambling and what not, you will have to have reliable odds, and prove that the odds you say, are reliable.

And regulators have to check and say "OK this is good you may conduct this business" if its legal to begin with where it is at. And say you want to conduct business in another country, you have to meet that countries regulations and laws.

IIRC, Strongboxes, in Entropia, does not meet swedish regulations. So why then when litteral casino slot machines, lottery scratch tickets, lottery tickets, poker, lootboxes in most other games etc, are legal, if anything then why are strongboxes in EU, not legal?

Like above people often overthink and overcomplicate things, but the fact that strongboxes are not legal in a country, where most other gambling is as long as it meets the regulations. makes me really wonder, to me its a massive red flag.
 

jetsina

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Knowing how a system works can often give that group of people an advantage. One of the questions is: do you then take advantage or not? For most of my life I have not wanted to profit from 'extra' knowledge (much), but neither do I want to be at a disadvantage.

The boxes issue is not MA's gain against us. It is PvP, as it were, but players with nothing don't even know what is happening. To a certain degree that is even a disadvantage to MA, because the greedy crowd grabs up the nice stuff while many a normal player thinks 'well sod this' after a while of not getting anything and moves on. Retention retention retention!

I thus lose out on a chance of some mu because I don't want to play that game and don't invest my psyche into jumping in with the greedy ones. This keeps me out of various places in EU which are a magnet for such behaviour.
Why not look at it positively: for no big loss, the types you probably don't like, Mika, are spending their time on activities you don't do. Win:win?! ;)
 

ProActive Mango

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If you're not interested in the pills and other treats, you can just buy UA. This replaces the depo fees with the need to (hunt) cycle once.

I'm not being obtuse here. Nor any others who repeatedly point this out. To gamble, you have to have a chance to lose. A risk.

Strong boxes don't offer that.
If you have something to win other than what you put in also counts as gambling... it goes both ways. Even if you dont get more TT, the value of the items is waaay more than you put in so you have something to win. And to be fair, none would buy boxes if you only got uni ammo and fireworks from the boxes.
 

Mika

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Knowing how a system works can often give that group of people an advantage. One of the questions is: do you then take advantage or not? For most of my life I have not wanted to profit from 'extra' knowledge (much), but neither do I want to be at a disadvantage.

The boxes issue is not MA's gain against us. It is PvP, as it were, but players with nothing don't even know what is happening. To a certain degree that is even a disadvantage to MA, because the greedy crowd grabs up the nice stuff while many a normal player thinks 'well sod this' after a while of not getting anything and moves on. Retention retention retention!

I thus lose out on a chance of some mu because I don't want to play that game and don't invest my psyche into jumping in with the greedy ones. This keeps me out of various places in EU which are a magnet for such behaviour.
Why not look at it positively: for no big loss, the types you probably don't like, Mika, are spending their time on activities you don't do. Win:win?! ;)

You should 100% take advantage of it. At the same time i think its perhaps time to piss of those who think they are in a minority in knowing by starting to advertise it ingame how boxes work and tell people to wait for waves.

Perhaps before long, no one opens boxes anymore as everyone is waiting for waves to happen, but without anyone opening, no one knows :D

Or Ma could just be more upfront about it and remove waves if that is thing for the boxes and do it quietly so that they wont end up having to be forced to repay millions in refunds :whistle:
 

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If you have something to win other than what you put in also counts as gambling... it goes both ways. Even if you dont get more TT, the value of the items is waaay more than you put in so you have something to win. And to be fair, none would buy boxes if you only got uni ammo and fireworks from the boxes.

I deleted a bunch of stuff because I certainly don't want to come off as combative, discussing side points about something I'm not passionate over. I don't want to abandon this point, though.

I'm surely not here to debate colloquialisms or what "feels like gambling". I get it.

Still for actual legal purposes, there have to be some strict definitions. People will generally focus on the experience, and not the mechanism. But in order to provide an experience, businesses have to follow certain laws. This transaction is clear, and MA does not ever sell you a strongbox, either. Have they ever, even once? Even in the web shop, they give them away.

They do sell you a key to a mystery box. And it is a sort of a gamble. But it's all plus. There's no loss. There's no specific risk. You've made your transaction, for a specific return, and it will (at a minimum) be met. But a mystery box is not a lottery ticket. You can't walk away with nothing. Nobody else is walking away with some or all of your 10 PED, until after your transaction with MA is complete.

I don't know where any of you live, you can probably buy some mystery boxes from various places. Certainly online. You pay for the box, you are guaranteed a minimum reasonably estimated return. As with strong boxes, it's usually estimated at the retailer's sticker price, but there you go.

Just because someone takes a perspective that everything less than the max possible result is a loss to them, doesn't make it so. The value of a strongbox key isn't a seasonal ring or a UL mining amp. It's 10 PED. Very reliably.

As for swedish law, I don't know, I was gone when it happened and haven't spent one minute to research. There could be specific verbiage regarding a box with variable contents, or baiting consumers into spending for "possible follow-on value". I don't want to be ridiculous I think it was said it was a loot box law. Whatever the lawyers said "too easy to sue us at home" so they stopped, AFAIK.

But again I'm sure the reason is very specific.
 

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removing ALL kind of waves and ALL kind of supply control, and iving fixed probability to all drops in all times would be TOP.
as i know that if i bomb at 500 meter i got 5% (example) to get one specific ore, 2% to get another, 20% a third
same for TIER components, not a 10 minute window but in all fight time a 1% of dropping it chance.
all would be easyer, not forced to fight according to the clock
and inc ase be aware that out of specific windows you are doomed to loose. that mekes this a "15-50" interval average
shooting 45 minutes in a row without any tier comp is a classic.
 

sorinel89

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From my experience of opening 16k boxes ive looted 7 rare items so id assume the safe side 2k boxes per rare ring,token (maybe my luck is a lot or maybe these are similar events others have experienced) as for amps during mayhem the droprate was low but id assume it was due to mass box opening(i was one of them)
Off mayhem boxes drop about 1 amp 50-100 boxes
Jeez you've been lucky my guy, trust me. Very lucky indeed and I am a bit jealous and sad to say it has been more than 2k boxes for me until i got a rare item. Congratz tho, well done. 🤞🤣
 

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shooting 45 minutes in a row without any tier comp is a classic.

This gave me a huge laugh, because it's actually perfectly (EU) classic.

There was a time when you could practically set your watch to a 45 minute loot cycle per profession.

Which meant, of course, a 90 minute drought coming ...
 

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Other game that have lootboxes have to reveal the % chance of every drop, has mindark ever provided % on lootboxes for amps, rings and so on?
The big difference is Mindark gives you a value for value trade. You give $1 and get 10 PEDs in game through the keys.
Other games you actually spend money on something that gives you no actual value.
I’m too lazy to do the research but I’m pretty sure there are some laws or something that require that if it is gambling they have to say the % of success.
But Entropia is NOT gambling! ;)
 

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The big difference is Mindark gives you a value for value trade. You give $1 and get 10 PEDs in game through the keys.
Other games you actually spend money on something that gives you no actual value.
I’m too lazy to do the research but I’m pretty sure there are some laws or something that require that if it is gambling they have to say the % of success.
But Entropia is NOT gambling! ;)
10 peds of uni ammo is not really = $1. You can drop 10 probes and result in 0 ped back xD
 
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