Misconceptions about Armor decay

[Pe-nerd]

Hi all,

After having a small PM session with Witte after discussing armor decay in this thread I need Armor advice?? i decided to start this thread because of the many misconceptions with armor and decay.

In our discussion Witte quoted MA in this matter, through that it seems we both read 2 seperate things. Let's Discuss it!!!

Changes to armor system
The armor durability system updated. Now, only one durability value is shown for all kinds of damage. The armors TT value does not influence its decay rate when hit. The higher the Durability stat is, the more abuse your armor can withstand. Armor condition influences the amount of protection offered. A critical hit which penetrates your armor means your armor does not reduce the damage done in the attack at all. It will still decay though. The amount of decay is based on attack type and the amount of damage dealt. Decay only occurs when an armor can protect for the kind of damage – if a creature deals acid damage onto a armor that doesn't protect against acid, no decay is rendered.

In fact it says 3 things:
-The armors TT value does not influence its decay rate when hit.
-The higher the Durability stat is, the more abuse your armor can withstand.
-Armor condition influences the amount of protection offered.
-Decay only occurs when an armor can protect for the kind of damage.

These things makes it almost impossible to test the armor protection efficiency. You can make a test based upon full TT and there we notice that the armor who has high durability and a low prot will be cheaper then armor who has high dura and high prot. It cannot say what the armor will do for you during combat stress. Armor condition influences the amount of protection offered is the reason of that.

After a test dune by several people it appears that jaguar can offer more protection then Angel but that only will happen on a long hunt. Angel armor has a lower TT value then jaguar, Full jag set has max tt of 540.4 peds angel has max tt of 330 peds. That will lead to that jaguar keeps a green condition for a longer time then angel during combat stress. So a armor test on Full TT makes no sense at all because it doesnt cover the reality of doing longer hunts what many of use addicts do .
Another misconception is in a group of ghoul armor owners on this forum who defend that armor despite stats and decay in tests is lower then other armors. We seen a dropp in price also on ghoul after armor overhaul and still they make same comments as before overhaul. They even resort to means of "If i am not right then the decay MA gives to armor isnt right". They did tests with other armor sets and think that all armor decay the same. C'mon guys if MA would scam us someone will find it and will make sure we all know about that. They have lots of us watching them closely and will make sure that these things arent possible.

Picking the armor of your needs should depend more on how long do you hunt then the so wished for higher protection. Ghoul can be your choice because it holds more different protection types but price of that protection is a little higher then other armor sets. Jaguar/tiger can be your armor if you hunt a lot and take a large amount of ammo with you on a hunt.

Make a decision based on your hunting habits dont look to much to those Full TT tests because they are very incomplete.

 

[LeenaLynx]

Just a hint - my jaguar don't have 888 full tt. it's about 500 (don't remember exactly).

 

[AkiranBlade]

The reason people defend Ghoul is because of it's ability to protect you against tough mobs when it's total price is cheaper than jaguar it protects more than jaguar can. It also protects over a wide range of attack types.

Fine, it leaves it's 'optimum protection state' quicker than other armours but then, it's a simple case of the fact you will notice that the hits have increased and are increasing further and you can carry on as long as you can economically take the punishment. then go repair.

I make it good practice to repair after every hunting session. That way I'm never dissapointed by my Gremlin + 5B setup. The same could be said of most armours. Unfortunately Ghosts means youll be repairing quite often but Ghoul is way ahead of Ghost on that.

The fact you can take out Hogglo with Ghoul and plates means it's a damn good armour especially when you align it's price to that of other looted armours in a similar protection range.

 

[LeenaLynx]

AkiranBlade, look @ pe-wiki.info... when i was choosing armor to upgrade i've looked ghol & jaguar both... ghoul is better only in electric protection & damages faster. so i bought jaguar. it protects way better than ghoul.

imho

 

[Noggin]

Very good points there pe-nerd. In fact they're points I made before in this post:

Response on armor decay changes

Due to the changes MA made to the armor decay, it means that we can no longer accurately measure decay and efficiency on armor. I find this a little disturbing because it means that MA could potentially chance armor decay and we wouldn't be able to tell.

Not saying they would, but people have suggested that the decay differs from time to time.

The only way we can measure it is to do scientific tests with appropriate mobs to benchmark the average cost per hit. This is time consuming and often inaccurate because we can't accurately measure the hits the mobs are dealing.

I think MA should supply us with a little more data on decay and efficiency for armor sets so we can decide for ourselves.

 

[AkiranBlade]

AkiranBlade, look @ pe-wiki.info... when i was choosing armor to upgrade i've looked ghol & jaguar both... ghoul is better only in electric protection & damages faster. so i bought jaguar. it protects way better than ghoul.

imho

5 points on the main three is not what I call 'way' better

The other categories can actually be quite important when hunting mobs that live with other mobs that do those kinds of damages.

 

[AkiranBlade]

The way I and others I've spoken to about it believe that the armour decays at a constant rate, it's ability to protect is the only value that changes along with the durability against current tt value calculation.

Someone has recently done a test, you can easily test armour decay by going for a mob that does a single type of damage, usually impact, and does a lot of it so as to always exceed the armours ability to protect.

For instance, Scaboreas do 100% impact damage.

So the easy test is:

Wear the armour you want to test, harness only, and get your fap out.

Press i, double click on the harness and select the stats page. Get the mob to hit you and fap away, whilst double clicking on the harness, log the change in value, if it does not change in value, the armour didn't recieve a hit, so you can't count that hit. Try and get a spread of 10 hits. As soon as the 10th landed hit gets in, whip the harness off.

You now have the value of the harness after 10 landed hits.

([Full Value] - [Current Value]) / 10 hits = x per hit

If you can be bothered, go out and hunt with that armour until it is almost worthless. Stop, take it's value down, and do the same 10 hit test, re-calculate. I'm sure you'll find that the x per hit value will be the same. However the protection will have obviously changed.

I don't see how it is written that it works any other way?

I'm tempted to run a test like this just to make sure.

Settler first I think lol

 

[aridash]

Due to the changes MA made to the armor decay, it means that we can no longer accurately measure decay and efficiency on armor. I find this a little disturbing because it means that MA could potentially chance armor decay and we wouldn't be able to tell.

I dont believe it has ever been possible to accurately measure armour decay since mob damage varies. you can count a hit but how do you know if youve been hit with 12dmg or 15dmg if you have 20 protection? if you dont know that how can you work out the decay it caused? or have i missed somthing?

 

[AkiranBlade]

May I add, to the calculation:

If using Nemesis per say in a 100% impact test:

([Max TT Value] - [Current TT Value]) / 10 = x per 'hit'

x/15 impact protection = value per individual damage point.

 

[AkiranBlade]

I dont believe it has ever been possible to accurately measure armour decay since mob damage varies. you can count a hit but how do you know if youve been hit with 12dmg or 15dmg if you have 20 protection? if you dont know that how can you work out the decay it caused? or have i missed somthing?

If you get hit for 1.0 then the mob you are trying to test against isn't tough enough. Find a tougher mob.

 

[ufcfl]

You also have to mention that the protection reduction when the armor is damaged is not a decrease of the protection value, but a decrease of the protection rate.
I mean that you will still be protected of the same value, but not at each hit. Sometimes you won't be protected at all, and your armor won't decay. That's why when it's almost fully damaged, you have an almost null protection, but also an almost null decay.

 

[spod]

this may help


armour decay chart

not my work , guessing from the address its rony of bahq
the theory is all armour decays the same for the amount of protection offered.

ie rasacl and nem against ambu is the same as they both have impact of 15.


rascal is cheaper against trox than nem as you are protected less - max 20 against 45 for nem.


the more protection offered the more the "next point of protection costs"

ie 20 points of protection costs more than x2 of 10 points.
and durability seems to mean nothing.

more info from MA would be good - but i dont think we get it.


none of the above is confirmed (with the new variable damage its pretty hard to get a definative answer) - but the above model is close, thought needs refining on a few points.

ie is a trox hit on ne for 50 points of damage total - 45 absorbed and 5 though
is this 3 lots of 15 damage or 1 lot of 45. as this makes a differenc to the cost of that hit (by over x2). i think its a 45 hit.

 

[aridash]

If you get hit for 1.0 then the mob you are trying to test against isn't tough enough. Find a tougher mob.

.

 

[Noggin]

I dont believe it has ever been possible to accurately measure armour decay since mob damage varies. you can count a hit but how do you know if youve been hit with 12dmg or 15dmg if you have 20 protection? if you dont know that how can you work out the decay it caused? or have i missed somthing?

Yes, I'm afraid you are missing something! What I'm referring to is the changes MA did to the armor decay at the same time as they made mob damage variable (they used to do consistent/maximum damage always).

However, AkiranBlade has explained that just as long as you find a mob which does consistent damage exceeding the armors ability to protect, you should always get the maximum possible decay. This is excellent news, although it's not quite ideal -- certainly we can be more objective when we measure armor decay, however

 

[Witte]

Ok i will do my say too

After a test dune by several people it appears that jaguar can offer more protection then Angel but that only will happen on a long hunt. Angel armor has a lower TT value then jaguar, Full jag set has max tt of 888 peds angel has max tt of 333 peds. That will lead to that jaguar keeps a green condition for a longer time then angel during combat stress. So a armor test on Full TT makes no sense at all because it doesnt cover the reality of doing longer hunts what many of use addicts do .

Jaguar is just ~550 for a full set. I have corrected that on wiki.

I would like to point out another reason angel loses its protection faster than jaguar. TT value might be a reason indeed, but i would like to see that proven 1st. The reason is, obviously, that angel offers about 50% more protection. This will loose its durability 50% faster. If TT value determines the protection offered, this effect is even worse. The decay curve increases fast with higher protection, the decay rate of angel wont be 50% higher, but more like 100%. So the condition decreases allot faster.

Another misconception is in a group of ghoul armor owners on this forum who defend that armor despite stats and decay in tests is lower then other armors. We seen a dropp in price also on ghoul after armor overhaul and still they make same comments as before overhaul. They even resort to means of "If i am not right then the decay MA gives to armor isnt right". They did tests with other armor sets and think that all armor decay the same. C'mon guys if MA would scam us someone will find it and will make sure we all know about that. They have lots of us watching them closely and will make sure that these things arent possible.

1st of all, the price of ghoul has increased drasticly lately. (i know cuz am buying one ) Its way more expensive then before the armorchange VU. 2nd, looking at this topic, the decay of all armor IS the same, although higher protections means relatively higher decay (decay/HP). And there are some exceptions.

Picking the armor of your needs should depend more on how long do you hunt then the so wished for higher protection. Ghoul can be your choice because it holds more different protection types but price of that protection is a little higher then other armor sets. Jaguar/tiger can be your armor if you hunt a lot and take a large amount of ammo with you on a hunt.

Make a decision based on your hunting habits dont look to much to those Full TT tests because they are very incomplete.

Indeed, the armor choise should be based on your own preferece. In a PM I already showed you that de difference in jag and ghoul isnt that bad. I showed that after about 10000 HP impact, thats 400 hits on ghoul, and 450 on jaguar, the difference in decay is about 5~10 ped. The main reason for this difference is that ghoul offers more protection in impact. And this can result in slightly lesser fapping, so that might even balance it.

So bottom line is, when you repair your armor regulary, and dont do extreme long hunts, I can recommend ghoul. When you do long hunts without armor repairs, jaguar is the way to go.

Personally, i rather buy a ghoul + 4-8 evade/courage/whatever chips in both cases, if i had to spend a certain amount

 

[Witte]

You also have to mention that the protection reduction when the armor is damaged is not a decrease of the protection value, but a decrease of the protection rate.
I mean that you will still be protected of the same value, but not at each hit. Sometimes you won't be protected at all, and your armor won't decay. That's why when it's almost fully damaged, you have an almost null protection, but also an almost null decay.

I dont think this is true. The mobs do variable damage, so it might seem it works like this, but i think your protection gets less each hit you recieve. And the decay stays the same with each hit.

The thing you are experiencing, is most likely that some armor parts has reached their max durability. And then they will indeed stop working and decaying (AFAIK)

 

[snow]

buy a shadow and will end all your problems
)
also buy a few full evade chips )
decay is bigger if the protection is good !

have a nice day all!!




LIVE FAST,DIE YOUNG , LEAVE A BEAUTIFUL CORPSE BEHIND!!

 

[aridash]

I would like to point out another reason angel loses its protection faster than jaguar. TT value might be a reason indeed, but i would like to see that proven 1st. The reason is, obviously, that angel offers about 50% more protection. This will loose its durability 50% faster. If TT value determines the protection offered, this effect is even worse. The decay curve increases fast with higher protection, the decay rate of angel wont be 50% higher, but more like 100%. So the condition decreases allot faster.

That makes alot of sence.

 

[Pe-nerd]

Just a hint - my jaguar don't have 888 full tt. it's about 500 (don't remember exactly).

Edited it, thx for the help.

Due to the changes MA made to the armor decay, it means that we can no longer accurately measure decay and efficiency on armor. I find this a little disturbing because it means that MA could potentially chance armor decay and we wouldn't be able to tell.

Yup, i agree. The reason why we cant measure armor decay no more is we dont know the curve of Condition vs Protect offered.
We can measure it all full TT but we only can get a hint about the quality of the armor because what damage vs decay you have when the condition is lower is unknown and untestable. You have to write down damage taken and the TT lost in a split second before nxt hit. And repeat and repeat to find the curve of condition vs prot/pec of the armor. The way it works is for sure not linear shaped as many people would like to think.
Last time MA changed decay lvl of any Armor type isnt known to me because its hard to test, when equip is used longer ingame experiences of people do count and MA cant change it to much because i would notice as in more people will. I don't think they have a need for that anyway at this time so we can all relax about that, i hope.

If using Nemesis per say in a 100% impact test:

([Max TT Value] - [Current TT Value]) / 10 = x per 'hit'

x/15 impact protection = value per individual damage point.

If you want to spot the way condition relates to decay this seems to be reasonable way to find out but you forgot a few important things. You measure the decay of that 10 hits on one piece of your armor.
To make a full test what would be reliable you need far more info to create the formula of decay for that armor. You have to measure decay on all parts and tt lost plus you have to take in account that the tt value of angel parts related to each others is different as in jaguar. How the different TT values of each part co-relate to condition is another mathematical formula you need for describing decay on total armor set. Check Wiki or other stats sites and check it yourselves it would make this answer to long if i had to prove that here and now. Check noggin's post about the issues concerning decay calculation on armor.

I would like to point out another reason angel loses its protection faster than jaguar. TT value might be a reason indeed, but i would like to see that proven 1st. The reason is, obviously, that angel offers about 50% more protection. This will loose its durability 50% faster. If TT value determines the protection offered, this effect is even worse. The decay curve increases fast with higher protection, the decay rate of angel wont be 50% higher, but more like 100%. So the condition decreases allot faster

Not correct, although its logical reasoning.
The amount of decay payed isnt influenced by a lower condition of your armor. I am meaning that each hit by a 100% impact damage taken will always decay that part as much, condition doesnt relate to decay per hit. Condition relates to the amount of damage offered so only indirect it relates to the total amount of decay payed. With lesser amount of damage offered you might need to fap more during hunt or simply die sooner what leads to even more losses. That also cant be calculated.
You cant put two different armor sets next to each other end try to make a linear comparison. Angel armor has different decay mechanics as any other armor.

 

[Xen]

FYI, you don't have to test with a mob, just get a weapon that does only one damage type (like katsuichi) and test in a ring.

 

[Etopia]

jaguar is miner armor , a full set weight like 1 part of other armor

 

[Viateslav]

Ive hardly seen anyone defend or even mention Ghoul on this forum

Ghost maybe?

 

[AkiranBlade]

Ive hardly seen anyone defend or even mention Ghoul on this forum

Ghost maybe?

It's people that troll on ghoul sale threads mate, that's where it is happening.

 

[Witte]

Not correct, although its logical reasoning.
The amount of decay payed isnt influenced by a lower condition of your armor. I am meaning that each hit by a 100% impact damage taken will always decay that part as much, condition doesnt relate to decay per hit. Condition relates to the amount of damage offered so only indirect it relates to the total amount of decay payed. With lesser amount of damage offered you might need to fap more during hunt or simply die sooner what leads to even more losses. That also cant be calculated.
You cant put two different armor sets next to each other end try to make a linear comparison. Angel armor has different decay mechanics as any other armor.

Well it IS correct, I think you misread the text abit.

What i mean is:

When you get a full impact hit on angel your dura is lowered with 30 points, and the tt value with 3.36
When you get a full impact hit on jag your dura is lowered with 22 points, and the tt value with 1.95

According to http://rony.bahq.net/ that is.

So after 100 hits, the angel will be decayed more, and has lost more durability points.

 

[Pe-nerd]

Well it IS correct, I think you misread the text abit.

What i mean is:

When you get a full impact hit on angel your dura is lowered with 30 points, and the tt value with 3.36
When you get a full impact hit on jag your dura is lowered with 22 points, and the tt value with 1.95

According to http://rony.bahq.net/ that is.

So after 100 hits, the angel will be decayed more, and has lost more durability points.

Its way to simple to just put one armor set against another based on decay of one armor piece on just one damage type. Incomplete test and only can be seen as an indication. Each armor sets have there own flaws and strong points.
I dont see the relation between this post and your previous plz explain?

 

[Witte]

Its way to simple to just put one armor set against another based on decay of one armor piece on just one damage type. Incomplete test and only can be seen as an indication. Each armor sets have there own flaws and strong points.
I dont see the relation between this post and your previous plz explain?

It means that when you hunt with armors with high protection, you will suffer relatively more decay, and you will lose your durability points faster. So in the same timespan, the armor with the most protection, will lose its maximum protection faster too, given that the TT value and durability is the same. There is ofcourse a breakeven point somewhere. But where that is exactly, I dont know.

 

[Zib Black Onyx]

It's my understanding that Jaguar armour is bugged and gives 100% protection no matter how much its decayed.

I remember reading a thread where someone mentioned this and how people say dont repair it...

maybe this is old and was fixed in this VU i dunno...

 

[Etopia]

It's my understanding that Jaguar armour is bugged and gives 100% protection no matter how much its decayed.

I remember reading a thread where someone mentioned this and how people say dont repair it...

maybe this is old and was fixed in this VU i dunno...

strange , i remember like 3 or 4 month ago when i bouth my jaguar , all part was not full TT , and for sure , part with low TT was giving a lot less protection.

 

[Wolf Grey]

It's my understanding that Jaguar armour is bugged and gives 100% protection no matter how much its decayed.

I remember reading a thread where someone mentioned this and how people say dont repair it...

maybe this is old and was fixed in this VU i dunno...

I'm not sure this was correct, but yes it was a rumor some months ago. I mentioned this rumor in Archangels "Angel vs. Jaguar" thread, but have had no way to test it back then, as I kept and always keep my armor at full TT.

And listen to the vise words of Etopia, Jaguar offers nice protection, but first and foremost it's an armor with good protection for miners that need low-weight equipment, since MA changed the loot-window and there's no storage on CND