Question: Morality of the Vehicle Kill/Repair Cycle

[Acetone]

It seems that the all the PVPers think it is "kewl" to repeatedly repair destroyed vehicles and kill them again in order to inflict large amounts of decay. Incredibly, they are completely unable to see how this could be interpreted as abuse. Instead, they will go as far as to claim that anyone expecting not to have their vehicle decayed is abusing the system.

So how do they justify this to themselves? Apparently, the presence of a recall button makes everything okay, despite the fact that:

1. A player does not know if their vehicle is being repaired/destroyed unless they are close to it. There are no long-range in-game notifications.
2. The button does not always work. Occasionally lag can prevent it from working for up to a minute.
3. A player could lose connection and be unable to recall it.
4. A frustrated player may simply decide to log off and forget to press the button.
5. A player may have enough faith in humanity to expect the dead vehicle to be left in peace.

The same train of logic would suggest that it is perfectly acceptable to steal a car if the owner forgets to lock it.

Many players are under the impression that anything they do is acceptable because it is all within game mechanics. Following that logic, it must be perfectly acceptable to stab someone in the face because the government allows us to have knives.

I hope it is clear that the purpose of the vehicle repairers was/is to repair the vehicle to benefit the player. It was almost certainly not designed to enable PVPers to induce massive amounts of decay in a short time period.

Attempting to explain this to PVPers is almost impossible. As soon as they hear something they don't like, they kill you.

So, I ask you as a reader of the forum: Do you think it is wrong to abuse a game mechanic to inflict financial damage against someone? PVPers thinking "OMFG NOOB CANT TAKE BEING KILLED LOL" need not bother replying.

 

[sitram]

What about those who spawn tons of vehicles in town just to brag about how many they have?

That annoys me and the lag it causes could burn my graphic card causing financial damage. Not to mention the moral damage of not being able to easily find my way trough all those spawn cars.

I am one of those PVPers which decays your votl/tank/chopper with mann mph if you leave it outside Akmuul.

To answer your question:
If you can't be bothered to pick up your vehicle in a pvp area then suffer the consequence or go to a non pvp area.

 

[Acetone]

What about those who spawn tons of vehicles in town just to brag about how many they have?

They're annoying, I won't argue.

I am one of those PVPers which decays your votl/tank/chopper with mann mph if you leave it outside Akmuul.

Just killing it is not the problem. The problem is killing it, repairing it, killing it again, repairing it, killing it again, ...
5 minutes later the vehicle is permanently destroyed. The use of a repair tool to destroy the vehicle is the abuse of the system.

To answer your question:
If you can't be bothered to pick up your vehicle in a pvp area then suffer the consequence or go to a non pvp area.

The problem here is that many players may not realise that this is happening, until their vehicle is already gone forever.

 

[Leona]

So, I ask you as a reader of the forum: Do you think it is wrong to abuse a game mechanic to inflict financial damage against someone? PVPers thinking "OMFG NOOB CANT TAKE BEING KILLED LOL" need not bother replying.

Don't we just love it when people but so much efford into phrasing the most unbiased poll / question ever? You know, like really trying hard to get a clear picture about others opinion. Diving deep into The Truth...

Well, i personally don't think it is an abuse. But could imagine if someone would grind down the same persons vehicle several time MindArk could see it as EULA break.

Btw, i think if what you describe really happens (shoot it down, repair and repeat), it is more like the person wants to skill repair cheap (as now decay on vehicles is back).

What i do wonder though is how some people always get in such "situations". I spend up to, donno, 80 hours a week in Amethera (non lootable) PvP since years and never got into such issues.

 

[Butch C]

What about those who spawn tons of vehicles in town just to brag about how many they have?

That annoys me and the lag it causes could burn my graphic card causing financial damage. Not to mention the moral damage of not being able to easily find my way trough all those spawn cars.

I am one of those PVPers which decays your votl/tank/chopper with mann mph if you leave it outside Akmuul.

To answer your question:
If you can't be bothered to pick up your vehicle in a pvp area then suffer the consequence or go to a non pvp area.

Your well ard

 

[Acetone]

Don't we just love it when people but so much efford into phrasing the most unbiased poll / question ever? You know, like really trying hard to get a clear picture about others opinion. Diving deep into The Truth...

Would you rather I use the word "exploit"?

Well, i personally don't think it is an abuse. But could imagine if someone would grind down the same persons vehicle several time MindArk could see it as EULA break.

I have submitted a support case regarding this. If they bother to respond, we may find out.

Btw, i think if what you describe really happens (shoot it down, repair and repeat), it is more like the person wants to skill repair cheap (as now decay on vehicles is back).

It *does* happen. MindArk considers cheap repair skilling to be abuse according to another thread.
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?209701-Vtol-terrain-abuse-and-5*-to-support

The clear precedent here is that any unintentional use of game mechanics is considered an exploit.

What i do wonder though is how some people always get in such "situations". I spend up to, donno, 80 hours a week in Amethera (non lootable) PvP since years and never got into such issues.

Visit the oil rig.

 

[AL Killmore]

Look now OP:
Your RL examples are ridiculous. Why?
Ok, what if I play it your way:
You have a car, right? Do you park it in a middle of a highway? No. It's plain stupid to do so. First truck coming will splat it. Then why do you think it's OK to park your vehicle in a PvP zone? First PK coming will splat it.
Learn where the safe parking is. Simple.
You're not ignorant about your car in RL and you shouldn't be ignorant about your vehicle ingame. Or you'll face the consequences - decay. And the only person responsible for that is you. You can't blame the highway truck that it hit your car and you can't blame the PK that he destroyed your vehicle repeatedly. Your own ignorance is the reason for your troubles...

See where is it going?
You demand MORALITY from people who have fun while killing other players.
PKs demand COMMON SENSE from people who abandon their cars in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Acetone]

Then why do you think it's OK to park your vehicle in a PvP zone? First PK coming will splat it.

The issue has never been about vehicles being killed in PVP zones. This is obviously intended.

you can't blame the PK that he destroyed your vehicle repeatedly

The PK is using a repair tool to enable himself to kill it again. There is no real life equivalent to this.

The design of the vehicle system is meant to limit the death of the vehicle to a small amount of decay. These people are using a repair tool to bypass this to inflict more damage.

See where is it going?
You demand MORALITY from people who have fun while killing other players.

Killing someone ingame is obviously acceptable. Using an exploit to destroy their items is quite different.

 

[Acetone]

Your own ignorance is the reason for your troubles...

Lack of knowledge of an exploit is typically outside the usual scope of ignorance.

Do you really expect the average player to think "oh, If I don't recall my vehicle immediately they will repair and destroy it over and over again until it is permanently broken"?

 

[AL Killmore]

No, sir. You don't get it.

For the PK it works in three ways:
First: repair skills
Second: educating an ignorant noob to learn using the "recall vehicle" button
Third: having fun

It's not an exploit. It's game mechanics. Your vehicle can be damaged by another player ONLY in PvP zones. No exploit here. Also, decay on the vehicle TT is SLOW. If you learn to recall it right after death, TT decay will be just few pec. If you learn to park your car in non-PvP areas - your decay will be ZERO.

 

[Acetone]

No , sir. You don't get it.

For the PK it works in three ways:
First: repair skills
Second: educating an ignorant noob to learn using the "recall vehicle" button
Third: having fun

It's not an exploit. It's game mechanics. Your vehicle can be damaged by another player ONLY in PvP zones. No exploit here. Also, decay on the vehicle TT is SLOW. If you learn to recall it right after death, TT decay will be just few pec.

So you're saying that it's okay to abuse flaws in game mechanics because it teaches people to avoid the exploit?

Does that mean it's okay to steal unlocked cars because it teaches people to lock them?

If you learn to park your car in non-PvP areas - your decay will be ZERO.

Parking has nothing to do with it. The radar doesn't work in PVP zones, you can get shot down by someone you can't see.

 

[Leona]

Would you rather I use the word "exploit"?

Obviously i meant you should use neither until you can be sure what it is. At least if you are really interested in other users opinions.

It *does* happen. MindArk considers cheap repair skilling to be abuse according to another thread.
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?209701-Vtol-terrain-abuse-and-5*-to-support

The clear precedent here is that any unintentional use of game mechanics is considered an exploit.

Oh, but your vehicle decays just fine now if someone else shoots it. So we have the costs to shoot it down, the decay of the vehicle plus the repair tool. Totally different situation, no "clear precedent". But i would guess you know that anyway.

Visit the oil rig.

Ah, yes of course now all starts to make sense. Are you serious?

Know what i would call it if someone would decay my car down to nothing after i left it at the rig? I would call that damn rude. And "damn rude" is exactly what i would expect there and whats part of the fun there.

No seriously, if you can bring MindArk to declare it an abuse / exploid (i could imagine) then good for you. Cause we don't have enough real exploids that are not taken care off.

 

[Acetone]

Also, decay on the vehicle TT is SLOW.

Not since the patch. Decay is very fast - 2 PED of TT per minute of repair/kill. That is under 10 minutes to completely destroy some vehicles.

 

[XeroX2]

Asking PKers for morality might be a bit of a bad idea... usually they come here to escape from the system of morality we generaly have in place IRL. Nothing wrong with that btw... it's a game (sry MA) after all.

 

[DanielleYourMom]

too short..

 

[Acetone]

Obviously i meant you should use neither until you can be sure what it is. At least if you are really interested in other users opinions.

Internet forum experience has taught me that showing a strong opinion gets more responses than being neutral.

Oh, but your vehicle decays just fine now if someone else shoots it. So we have the costs to shoot it down, the decay of the vehicle plus the repair tool. Totally different situation, no "clear precedent". But i would guess you know that anyway.

Look at the wording.

is considered an exploit since this is not an intended use of the vehicles.

Anything that is not an intended use is an exploit. Do you believe that the repair tool was intended to be used to completely destroy a vehicle?

Read that again. The repair tool is used to destroy vehicles.

Ah, yes of course now all starts to make sense. Are you serious?

I flew over, got shot down. I was not aware that vehicles decayed so much since the ninja patch. Clearly I am still a noob after seven years of this game!

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

It *does* happen. MindArk considers cheap repair skilling to be abuse according to another thread.
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?209701-Vtol-terrain-abuse-and-5*-to-support

Well, yes, that is obviously a different situation where they crash their vehicle and then repair it, hence giving no tt decay (at least in the examples I have heard)...


However, if this is done repetedly by the same person I guess it miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight be considered as breaking the EULA (harassment) but not as a bug/system abuse

 

[AL Killmore]

So you're saying that it's okay to abuse flaws in game mechanics because it teaches people to avoid the exploit?...

I'm saying (and it should be pretty obvious) that it's OK to use game mechanics because it teaches people to not demonstrate ignorant behaviour.

 

[Leona]

So you're saying that it's okay to abuse flaws in game mechanics because it teaches people to avoid the exploit?

See, that it is a flaw in game mechanics is only your assumption. You might be right, or not..

The way i see it: Using vehicles in PvP can give severe advantage, it should come with some risk. If MindArks decides that the maximal risk of having it decayed down to zero is appropriate (it is not like that can happen under normal circumstances) then thats very fine for me.

 

[Acetone]

I'm saying (and it should be pretty obvious) that it's OK to use game mechanics because it teaches people to not demonstrate ignorant behaviour.

I will state again that it is not completely obvious that a player must recall the vehicle immediately. One would reasonably assume that when a vehicle is destroyed, the damage is done. Ignorance would be parking the vehicle in the middle of a PVP zone and just leaving it.

If a message popped up saying "Warning! Your vehicle is still in danger! Recall it immediately!" then I would agree that it is ignorant. No such message exists.

 

[Acetone]

See, that it is a flaw in game mechanics is only your assumption. You might be right, or not..

I have made what I consider to be a reasonable assumption: that the repair tool is for players to repair their own vehicle or their team mate's vehicle to get back into the fight. This is the most obvious use of the tool.

The way i see it: Using vehicles in PvP can give severe advantage, it should come with some risk. If MindArks decides that the maximal risk of having it decayed down to zero is appropriate (it is not like that can happen under normal circumstances) then thats very fine for me.

If they make a statement that they consider repairing an enemy vehicle for the purpose of damaging it more is acceptable, then I will agree with you. I am giving MindArk the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[xaph]

Simple.
Make it TT 50% max repair available in 24 hours after 2 full TT repairs in 24 hours have been completed,
Just a nub idea.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Ignorance would be parking the vehicle in the middle of a PVP zone and just leaving it.

But the only way someone actually could have destroyed/repaired your vehicle is if you, in fact, left it in a PvP zone... so your argument in this matter falls flat, I'm afraid...

 

[Finch]

Simple.
Make it TT 50% max repair available in 24 hours after 2 full TT repairs in 24 hours have been completed,
Just a nub idea.

Even better idea..

"Joe Blow is attempting to repair your vehicle. [Allow] [Deny]"

or alternately only allow vehicles that *are not your own* to be repaired only in non-pvp areas.

 

[Leona]

Internet forum experience has taught me that showing a strong opinion gets more responses than being neutral.

WTH, reasonable reply, now you have ruined my bashing.

Look at the wording.

Anything that is not an intended use is an exploit. Do you believe that the repair tool was intended to be used to completely destroy a vehicle?

Read that again. The repair tool is used to destroy vehicles.

I knew the wording.
Thats as much word picking as if i would say now: The PKer uses the repair tool exactly as intended: to repair it.

What i can image, as Nighthawk already said, that MindArk will see it as harassment. Exploit, not really.

 

[Acetone]

But the only way someone actually could have destroyed/repaired your vehicle is if you, in fact, left it in a PvP zone... so your argument in this matter falls flat, I'm afraid...

Are you saying that it is immediately obvious to the average player that their vehicle which was already destroyed is still in further danger?

Vehicles will return automatically after 15 or so minutes. A player could reasonably expect it to return to their storage later on, dead but not decayed, and could simply log off. In fact, they may have done this dozens of times right before the ninja patch (which massively increased or "fixed" the decay) and have never seen their vehicle decay at all.

 

[Acetone]

Thats as much word picking as if i would say now: The PKer uses the repair tool exactly as intended: to repair it.

For the purpose of determining intent, to look no further than the action of repairing would be ignorant. The PKer is not repairing it to benefit the player, as the words "to repair it" alone would imply.

 

[Acetone]

Even better idea..

"Joe Blow is attempting to repair your vehicle. [Allow] [Deny]"

or alternately only allow vehicles that *are not your own* to be repaired only in non-pvp areas.

Hmm. Maybe (put in an option to) restrict repairing to those on the guest list?

 

[AL Killmore]

Are you saying that it is immediately obvious to the average player that their vehicle which was already destroyed is still in further danger?...

Every avatar or vehicle inside a PvP zone is always in danger.

Now that's no reasonable assumption. That's a fact. Learn it.

 

[Finch]

Hmm. Maybe (put in an option to) restrict repairing to those on the guest list?

That could work too. Several good options that would fix the harassment issue.