More Space discussion

[Kri]

--Mod's note (JohnCapital)--
These posts started as an off topic debate in another thread, so in order to preserve the original thread topic, plus not lose this one, I've moved it into it's own thread.
--/Mod's note (JohnCapital)--








Piracy is one of the professions now advertised by MA/PC apparently...

If you read through this page: http://www.planetcalypso.com/why-join/why-every-mmo-enthusiast/

You'll find these interesting bits:

Some of the most well known Player vs Player characters are newer to the universe, leading gangs of space pirates on missions of pillaging as they shoot down large passenger ships and take the spoils for themselves. This means that a new player is just as valuable to the community as a veteran. Everyone has the potential to achieve greatness, and it can be done on any budget.

If you’re looking for a low cost way to get into PvP, try your hand at being a space pirate! All of space is lootable PvP. And anyone who wishes to trade planetary goods must cross space to make this happen. Other players have seen opportunity here for profit. Are you the next?

And here are screenies in case they change it real fast

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Piracy is one of the professions now advertised by MA/PC apparently...

If you read through this page: http://www.planetcalypso.com/why-join/why-every-mmo-enthusiast/

You'll find these interesting bits:





And here are screenies in case they change it real fast

MA didnt write that. I did.

They arent going to change any screnshots on that article because I own the entire piece, and I dont want it changed nor have I granted permission for it to be altered in any way. They'd have to author a new piece entirely, and quite frankly having a player write something like that for your game, unpaid and unsolicited, speaks highly for the product.

The original piece can be found on my blog http://www.entropianetwork.com/magyar. It was then published here on PCF, and then published on Planet Calypso's website after Planet Calypso staff asked permission from me to do so.

 

[Farmer Smurf]

MA didnt write that. I did.

Regardless of the source of the article, it is still Mind Ark publishing material trying to draw even MORE people into the game to rob or kill me/you..shitty way to treat customers...

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Regardless of the source of the article, it is still Mind Ark publishing material trying to draw even MORE people into the game to rob or kill me/you..shitty way to treat customers...

Interpret it that way if you want. I was simply writing on what the game is like. I do not believe I said anything false. As for Calypso, well, call me crazy, but isnt advertising what the game is like the right thing to do?

Its not like folks cant fight back! I have no idea why people arent arming caravans to go out en masse, and using bait vehicles to draw pirates out and make their lives difficult.

What's good for for the goose...

 

[valentin]

It does not matter who wrote the text is who approved the text and took the decision to publish the text on its official website, because the text has been approved by the MA and they have published the text on their website as the official text so the text is valid until the they realize that it must be changed .... and now they've made ​​it so no player will be punished retrospectively.

Now if they want to look for someone who is "guilty" they has just just to look at themselves

 

[sawachika]

Interpret it that way if you want. I was simply writing on what the game is like. I do not believe I said anything false. As for Calypso, well, call me crazy, but isnt advertising what the game is like the right thing to do?

Its not like folks cant fight back! I have no idea why people arent arming caravans to go out en masse, and using bait vehicles to draw pirates out and make their lives difficult.

What's good for for the goose...

Simple...

It simply isn't cost-efficient to do that.

Its already hard enough to find markup to cover your bleeding (meant to use *##, but decided against it) let alone find spare peds to waste upon pirates which are sure-to-be "no looters".

As for the baiting....sounds nice since it would make the pirates waste shots....but who's gonna be paying for them baiters? And besides...surely the pirates would be clever enough to decipher who's the bait and who's not....eventually.

But I'm digressing...so....back on topic, I'm also clueless as to why they aren't using the client loader to relay these sort of important information...

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Simple...

It simply isn't cost-efficient to do that.

Its already hard enough to find markup to cover your bleeding (meant to use *##, but decided against it) let alone find spare peds to waste upon pirates which are sure-to-be "no looters".

As for the baiting....sounds nice since it would make the pirates waste shots....but who's gonna be paying for them baiters? And besides...surely the pirates would be clever enough to decipher who's the bait and who's not....eventually.

But I'm digressing...so....back on topic, I'm also clueless as to why they aren't using the client loader to relay these sort of important information...

I get it.

So the problem is this:

The pirates are willing to spend money to shoot people down, but people arent willing to spend money to defend themselves.

In essence, people want the developer to bail them out because theyre too cheap to do it themselves.

Raise ticket prices. 30 PED for a flight is ridiculously cheap. It should be at least 30 ped per passenger. Actually more. I wouldn't balk at 100 PED per passenger. That's reasonable.

I see a problem. I just dont see it as MA's problem.

 

[valentin]

I get it.

So the problem is this:

The pirates are willing to spend money to shoot people down, but people arent willing to spend money to defend themselves.

In essence, people want the developer to bail them out because theyre too cheap to do it themselves.

Raise ticket prices. 30 PED for a flight is ridiculously cheap. It should be at least 30 ped per passenger. Actually more. I wouldn't balk at 100 PED per passenger. That's reasonable.

I see a problem. I just dont see it as MA's problem.

I wonder who uses who for their solution is in any case cheaper than MA's here, you pay 30 ped to go to another planet from MA:s 50 ped as it was before when you could use a TP between planets.

 

[aia]

Raise ticket prices. 30 PED for a flight is ridiculously cheap. It should be at least 30 ped per passenger. Actually more. I wouldn't balk at 100 PED per passenger. That's reasonable.

There are players for whom even 5 ped (EFA ticket price for daily warp) is a lot of money.

If you're willing to pay 100 ped/ride then you have the option to do so. Just visit other planets over the day, using a VIP ride, and pay the "double warp" fee.

(Double warp fee: If you're on Arkadia, but the ship you want to travel with is on Calypso, you need to pay for Calypso -> Arkadia, pick you up, and then pay for warp Arkadia -> Calypso. Calypso and Arkadia is bad examples of double warp; if you're travelling from Next Island it's more likely you're eligible for the Double Warp fare.)

The pirates are willing to spend money to shoot people down, but people arent willing to spend money to defend themselves.

I see a problem. I just dont see it as MA's problem.

I've offered to man a cannon at flights (with my own ammo), but I'm usually turned down. One reason of this is there likely is a limited number of gun seats of ships, and number of manned seats that can be used at same time. For instance on privateers I think you can currently only use one seat (then the others become busy).

When I fly by myself I occasionally try to defend myself, but I generally suck at pvp, and especially the way aiming works in space (I move the mouse 1mm and the ship starts to spin arund). Space pvp is for people with gaming rigs I guess.

I do the best with repairing, but for repairing there is a limit to the number of passengers who can repair. I think most active passengers do their best, but not everyone is equipped with repair tool (getting a basic repair set can be a high cost for someone who's living by sweating).

 

[Fifth]

If someone finds out a way to abuse the trade terminals or any other system that moves "tt-value" from one place of inventory to another place of inventory, sure it will probably have an impact on loot when MA managers sees one system has an unexpected loss and that loss has to be covered. But it would be unlikely that trade terminals are tied to the looting system.

Also found a good example on YouTube, one of those countless HowTo Make Profit in EU videos.
This one showcases a child who haven't even understood the concept of money yet (i.e. he gives money and gets a bubble gum for it, turns around and says - See, i just made profit! I got the bubblegum!) ...

Children should really not be allowed in, at least not the dumb slow ones, if they can't manage these things in RL they have no chance in here. And the parents here, who should take care of the extreme cases, they are also dumb and slow...

 

[aia]

Also found a good example on YouTube, one of those countless HowTo Make Profit in EU videos.

Great, I take a look on it later. (Unfortunately it's too long to be viewed right away)

This one showcases a child who haven't even understood the concept of money yet (i.e. he gives money and gets a bubble gum for it, turns around and says - See, i just made profit! I got the bubblegum!) ...

I'll tell you a secret: The profits made in entropia comes from other players.

If you consider the chain, hunter gets 110% for wool, tailor buys wool for 110% and make clothes that sell for 120%, then both of them has made 10% each. But for the chain to work, someone has to buy the garnment for 120% and now the buyer ("bubblegum buyer") pays both of them.

Imagine how the economy would be if everyone was a trader. Imagine if everyone got the idea that you could get money from auction buy buying things "cheap" and selling "expensive". Well, it would work for a little while while the bubble builds up - keep in mind if there is no hunter, miner or crafter there wouldn't be new items or resources listed, everyone would just bid on the existing ones and the price (´´Value´´) of them would rise and rise.

But at some point the bubble bursts when people start to cash out the profits, or some of the buyers get tired and stop buying things. Now auction will be filled with overpriced items and someone would have to take the loss (most likely the last sellers). Some traders would be smarter than others - if you got the feeling stock traders have you know when to pull out in time - and others would lose big. It's the not that the losers are dumb, it's just that they aren't as savvy on the market as the successful ones.

 

[Alice]

I get it.

So the problem is this:

The pirates are willing to spend money to shoot people down, but people arent willing to spend money to defend themselves.

pirates are willing to spend money to shoot people down because the likelihood there hey loot is given

people are way less likely to spend money to go for the pirates because it is way less likely pirates have loot when they get shot down

it is a fairly simple problem
you can be looted from ALL your loot by a pirate who has 0 loot on himself
he can then log off for example (10 seconds), wait an hour and log back in to respawn at a space station, tt all loot, give to a "brother" of his and go back out

thats why i suggest a system where a pirate can just loot a person ONCE of a ped amount he carries of lootable stuff himself
ie, he has 10 ped loot on him, he can loot 10 ped max
you would see waaaaay more pirate defense then
at this point however, it just adds to your cost

but since you want to pay 100 ped per trip cost isn't much of an issue for you i guess

but back on the topic for the pirate summoning
people cannot defend themselves against that

why pirates do that is fairly easy as well, when you summon someone during his hunt or mining trip, hes fairly likely to carry quite a bit of loot, since most people don't walk back to storage every 5 min to put the stuff in
then they get summoned up to a ship where it takes time to realise what just happened, react and go to the ship tp to the still docked ship
if the people who did this know what they are doing and my bet is they do, this time window is pretty small

and here it is on MA to act, that is the issue
people can't defend themselves against much
they turn to the people who designed the system flawed and don't just get an answer that basically sais "yo, we don't do anything, tough shit bro" but instead get a smack in the face because the people abusing the flawed system not only don't get punished, they just receive a warning stating basically "you bad bad bad boy, don't you do that again, or else!"
and thats pathetic

 

[Fifth]

I'll tell you a secret: The profits made in entropia comes from other players.

Glad you understand it. Marco could tell us it's a zero sum game because it's not a company secret, simply because it's obvious to everyone who bothers to think.

We can draw 2 conclusions from this:

1. There's no "MA Pocket" and "Player's Pocket". It's all the same. ( Unless u think the TT is directly tied to the company reserve put aside for fixing up all broken castles in Europe. )
2. There's no: "This is from our pocket, let's fix it fast" and "This is from player's pocket, let it slide". Only difference is the priority assigned to different cock-ups and need to manage lot of problems with limited funds/manpower. All the rest is just dreams and fairytales.

Works fine in most cases, not well but it works. And then the management makes a wrong call...

 

[aia]

Glad you understand it. Marco could tell us it's a zero sum game because it's not a company secret, simply because it's obvious to everyone who bothers to think.

1. There's no "MA Pocket" and "Player's Pocket". It's all the same. ( Unless u think the TT is directly tied to the company reserve put aside for fixing up all broken castles in Europe. )
2. There's no: "This is from our pocket, let's fix it fast" and "This is from player's pocket, let it slide". Only difference is the priority assigned to different cock-ups and need to manage lot of problems with limited funds/manpower. All the rest is just dreams and fairytales.

You draw wrong conclusion here.

Lets say, the total amount of PEDs ingame is the difference between amount of PEDs deposited minus the amount of PEDs used (withdrawn, or consumed by the system).

If someone uses the trade terminal in such a way that it gives out more peds than it gives away, this will create more PEDs into the system that it should be. Same thing if let's say someone finds a way to make mining amps work forever (without having to put TT value into mining amp by repairing for instance). Effectively, creating PEDs this way, from MAs side, is the opposite of "consuming".

If the number of "created" peds is lesser than or equal to consumed, then MA (to keep their income) needs to raise the consumption parts. This means either higher fees, or less returns.

If the number of "created" peds is higher than "consumed" peds, then MA would go under pretty soon if someone wants to withdraw a lager sum.

Depending on the speed something could be done this probably is such a thing that needs to be taken care of pretty fast.


If it's possible to, for a longer period of time, is possible to "milk" trade terminal I'm pretty sure that some people will try to make bots for it. Then those people can have computers in a LAN farming the TTs.

 

[Fifth]

You draw wrong conclusion here.
snip

... and then you confirm, i was right.

There's no magical way to make real money appear from nowhere in RL.
The virtual economy supposed to copy the RL economy and work similarly - money doesn't grow on trees, every profitable action generates some decay thus feeding the system in return.

If this system breaks down it's a problem. Depending on the severity it will be fixed, postponed, or ignored, i.e:
- Peds generated directly from TT without feeding back no decay whatsoever in return - priority red alert to be fixed asap.
- Some players using VTOLS to avoid part of decay (but take full loot) - low priority, take it easy guys u can drag ur feet forever... 3 years is OK

There could be different priorities (right or wrong), but we're still in the same boat. MA goes belly up, bad for us. Players get robbed their money, MA goes belly up. In the end of the day it's all players money anyways.

 

[Pyhä Antero]

There's no magical way to make real money appear from nowhere in RL.

Actually, you're wrong. All money appears from nowhere. All real money is debt given by private banks. + aia is right, your conclusions are wrong.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

pirates are willing to spend money to shoot people down because the likelihood there hey loot is given

people are way less likely to spend money to go for the pirates because it is way less likely pirates have loot when they get shot down

Exactly.

So what you and I are both saying is that the defenders are too cheap. They're miserly. They're penny pinchers. They are giving the pirates opportunity to take from them because in their minds its easier to risk it all consistently and complain the few times that it is taken than arm yourself and fight back, using a small portion of your markup each time doing so.

We both see the same thing. Just some parties want to excuse it, while others do not.

Do I support a pirate? Nope. But the difference between you and I is, were I to trade in space, I'd carry a whole mess of ammo, and pay people to go with me. I'd make sure that the materials I carried were enough to cover the cost of the trip, plus markup for any ammo spent and regular market conditions. And I would not think twice about shooting the bastards down, or anyone else who happened to get too close to my convoy.

To some folks the system is something that needs to be changed. To me it is something that I must adapt to work within.

 

[Neil Stockton]

Exactly.

So what you and I are both saying is that the defenders are too cheap. They're miserly. They're penny pinchers. They are giving the pirates opportunity to take from them because in their minds its easier to risk it all consistently and complain the few times that it is taken than arm yourself and fight back, using a small portion of your markup each time doing so.

We both see the same thing. Just some parties want to excuse it, while others do not.

Do I support a pirate? Nope. But the difference between you and I is, were I to trade in space, I'd carry a whole mess of ammo, and pay people to go with me. I'd make sure that the materials I carried were enough to cover the cost of the trip, plus markup for any ammo spent and regular market conditions. And I would not think twice about shooting the bastards down, or anyone else who happened to get too close to my convoy.

Your idea sounds fun but it's not practical and no serious space trader would do this.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Your idea sounds fun but it's not practical and no serious space trader would do this.

I agree. Because theyre penny pinchers.

 

[Fifth]

aia is right, your conclusions are wrong.

no problem, you're welcome.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Your idea sounds fun but it's not practical and no serious space trader would do this.

I agree. Because theyre penny pinchers.

Not just that there is no reason why any same person would go to that length when they can safely transport materials using the logout feature. If logout is used correctly there is no risk of loosing any materials (provided the service provider is not a pirate). So why on earth would someone use any other method which may have some risk?

With time obviously MindArk will address the logout issue but until then there is no reason to use any risky transport methods.

When the logout issue is addressed I'm sure traders or people wanting to transport materials will then be willing to spend more on making transport safer or simply not transport any materials via space. Which is what pvp space I think is supposed to do. To discourage people from transporting materials from one planet to another to help planets develop their own local economies.

 

[valentin]

Not just that there is no reason why any same person would go to that length when they can safely transport materials using the logout feature. If logout is used correctly there is no risk of loosing any materials (provided the service provider is not a pirate). So why on earth would someone use any other method which may have some risk?

With time obviously MindArk will address the logout issue but until then there is no reason to use any risky transport methods.

When the logout issue is addressed I'm sure traders or people wanting to transport materials will then be willing to spend more on making transport safer or simply not transport any materials via space. Which is what pvp space I think is supposed to do. To discourage people from transporting materials from one planet to another to help planets develop their own local economies.

" To discourage people from transporting materials from one planet to another to help planets develop their own local economies." I think this also but there is a problem.

The problem is that the basic idea was by MA for the other planet partners to get new players into the game not for the existing players to travel around the planets all the time.

MA's intention was that the planet partners would operate where they themselves had failed, but it's probably difficult to recruit many new players who remain in the game after 5 years of nerfs it is now on the last time that MA has begun to consider otherwise, I'm not saying that nerfs continue, but MA has begun to look for other altenatives but MA's reputation is already known.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

@Valentin it's planet partners responsibility to do their own marketing. My understanding is to get the go ahead to develop their planet they had to submit a marketing plan on how they would attract new players. None of the planet partners have so far succeeded in developing their own player base instead they keep marketing their planet to the existing player base. So they have failed in whatever marketing plan they submitted to MA. This is more a problem with planet partners than MindArk.

There is that new Moon thing headed by Akoz lets hope they are more successful in doing some real marketing.

 

[Joat]

@Valentin it's planet partners responsibility to do their own marketing. My understanding is to get the go ahead to develop their planet they had to submit a marketing plan on how they would attract new players. None of the planet partners have so far succeeded in developing their own player base instead they keep marketing their planet to the existing player base. So they have failed in whatever marketing plan they submitted to MA. This is more a problem with planet partners than MindArk.

There is that new Moon thing headed by Akoz lets hope they are more successful in doing some real marketing.

One problem with the whole concept is that MA want each PP to have a unique
planet, nothing like any excisting, but at the same time development of unique
features for each PP seem really slow, due to understandable reasons.

Next problem comes because of this. What each PP do create can easily be used at
other planets, and therefor a lot of stuff from PPs end up at the most popular
planet, which is quite logic, players search for the market that is biggest ingame.

My guess is that the day PPs do become more unique, and do have a unique market
on their own, that is healthy and wealthy, that day will MA do something to the
log out in ships. Since less items and stacks are moved between planets, and interest
to use safe travelling with MS is way lower, they have to please shipowners too.

So in the end, if a PP gonna succeed in bringing in new players, they have to be
way more unique in a lot of features... and it all starts over again.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

What each PP do create can easily be used at
other planets, and therefor a lot of stuff from PPs end up at the most popular
planet, which is quite logic, players search for the market that is biggest ingame.

Items can be moved, yes, but there are unique systems that are on one planet only (Treasure Hunting, The Hub, etc) at least.

 

[Joat]

Items can be moved, yes, but there are unique systems that are on one planet only (Treasure Hunting, The Hub, etc) at least.

They can give new skills, or a twist of excisting system, but they are not new
and unique gameplay sadly...

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

So in the end, if a PP gonna succeed in bringing in new players, they have to be
way more unique in a lot of features... and it all starts over again.

I disagree. A new player will have no knowledge of whats unique or not. A planet partner could quite easily make a good planet from the existing features and then market it to a wider outside game audience.

Problem with the newer planets is they are not quite complete and they don't seem to be doing a good if any job of marketing. They talk big but deliver little.

 

[Joat]

I disagree. A new player will have no knowledge of whats unique or not. A planet partner could quite easily make a good planet from the existing features and then market it to a wider outside game audience.

Problem with the newer planets is they are not quite complete and they don't seem to be doing a good if any job of marketing. They talk big but deliver little.

The point is, if they bring in new players, they will leave due to other planets are too
close in gameplay and also more active, as it is now.
So PP don't get enough of action in the long run, which mean they have less to
spend when developing their own planet even thou' they get some income from
avatars created at their planet that are active on other planets.
We can't just look at it in a per planet perspective, we must look at in a bigger
perspective that covers entire entropia universe.

If planets are to close to each other when it comes to gameplay, they will also
lose their market to the strongest planet.
If they have a very unique planet, chance is that might even bring "players"
that in normal circumstances might not even join a RCE-MMO.

RT has a music-inspired theme, are there any features that could be created based
on music, if there were no limits in concept and development?

Looking at a more precise feature, one planet could create a racing-serie with
tracks in instances for 32 players, inspired by the feeling of the game WipeOut...
are there any features that could be created based on racing, if there were no limits in
concept and development?

I could go on for hours with ideas that are unique and non excisting atm....

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Ok, lets put it this way. Lets say we have 5 identical planets. No unique gameplay all pretty much exactly the same as each other.

Now consider following scenario

Scenario 1: None of them do any marketing except to player base on other planets.

Scenario 2: All do strong external marketing with lots of new players joining each planet.


Now which scenario is better for the game as whole? Point is if all pull their own weight regardless of unique features they will all do better. If only one is pulling the weight for all of them, it's pretty much a lost cause.

Now that's looking at the bigger picture Where a planet is not being selfish if players stay or move.

 

[Joat]

Ok, lets put it this way. Lets say we have 5 identical planets. No unique gameplay all pretty much exactly the same as each other.

Now consider following scenario

Scenario 1: None of them do any marketing except to player base on other planets.

Scenario 2: All do strong external marketing with lots of new players joining each planet.


Now which scenario is better for the game as whole? Point is if all pull their own weight regardless of unique features they will all do better. If only one is pulling the weight for all of them, it's pretty much a lost cause.

Now that's looking at the bigger picture Where a planet is not being selfish if players stay or move.

If they have similar gameplay, they also bring similar customers...
If each planet would marketing their own planet that would hopefully
bring in more players... but how many will stay?

It is about bringing in people that wouldn't join otherwise.