Question: Question about ECO items and how to choose them.

[CozMoDan]

I am looking at dmg per pec (DPP) and see that the Koss H400(L) does 2.808 DPP and the FreanD Delta does 2.907 DPP. I am talking about being maxed on both guns just for this question.

The H400 has .920 decay and the Delta has 3.50 and when you look at them in game the H400 says "very good" and the Delta says "above average"

The H400 uses 800 ammo and the Delta 700.

I also know that amps make a difference but I am talking un-amped for the question.

So my question is, what is the best way to determind ECO? Do you use DPP or decay or what?

I did a lot of searching but there seems to be a lot of answers and much complication and hard for a noob to understand. So without all the complicated facts and figures and diagrams and graphs is there just a simple answer to my question?

Thanks for the help.
Peace.

 

[Hotei]

I believe the damage per pec also includes the ammo shot for the total number.

So after gun decay, and ammo shot, you get the total Pec spent. Thus damage per pec.

Cheers,

Hotei

 

[kebplay]

Use damage per pec, it does count ammo as well.
You also need to consider your professional levels as you need to be over level 89 for a FreanD Delta to be as eco as a maxed H400 (level 15.5).

 

[Hotei]

Use damage per pec, it does count ammo as well.
You also need to consider your professional levels as you need to be over level 89 for a FreanD Delta to be as eco as a maxed H400 (level 15.5).

Oh and you might also need to take into consideration the markup of the weapon too. A korss h400 at 120% is not as eco as if it was at 110%.

 

[Alice]

depends a bit on how you define eco

but plain weapon eco i would use the average damage per pec

so kinda like
(min dam+max)/2*effective hit ability
/ decay*markup+ammo*markup

you may need wiki for the hit ability figure tho, ranges from something around 85-94% or something from HA 0 to HA 10, not sure
eco itself depends partially on dps as well tho, the faster you kill the mob, the less armor and fap decay you have
unless you wait and heal naturally for dunno, 2-10 min after each mob
but thats hard to put in formulas, as it depends on evade, armor, mob, etc.

either way, for plain weapon eco, also to compare unmaxed stuff with maxed stuff
you should take the average damage into account, the hit ability and possible markup of weapon decay and ammo (explosives and light ME for example)

cause if you compare the max dam/decay, the old time non SIB weapons win pretty much all the time i guess, although you assume then that you hit all the time and deal always max damage, what is fairly unlikely, especially if you aren't lvl 100 in hit and dam prof

going for the durability in weapons you will always end up with opalo, jester, etc and totally disregard any other weapons, especially melee ones (although those are fairly uneco mostly anyway )
it is generally a bad idea anyway, cause those durability terms work for certain ranges
dunno, very good is 2-5 pec or something (would have to check wiki for that i guess), so you can't really make any conclusions

 

[Oleg]

For a maxed weapon:

dmg/pec = (Maxdmg*0.75) / (Shotcost/0.9)

For an old-school (maxed at level 100) unlimited weapon:

dmg/pec = (Maxdmg*(52.5+(22.5*Dmglevel/100))/100) / (Shotcost/(0.8+Hitlevel/1000))

That doesn't take account of critical hits or sights/scopes.

If using an amp then Maxdmg and Shotcost should be the total of gun+amp.

 

[CozMoDan]

Thank you all for the replys. This is good stuff and very enlighting. I also feek that DPP was the best way to determind ECO but just wanted to be sure.
Peace.

 

[filibert]

the best way to determine eco would be to take Oleg formulas regarding what wep you use, and then confronting
1) its dps with the regeneration rate of the mob you hunt to see how many "addition shots" you need (h400 l maxed is quite eco but not on an ambulimax dominant that regens good and has decent hp). Hence, the amp is as important as the weapon itself if the mob regen.
2)your level with the mob to see how many "lost shots" you need because the mob -if it's the case- is "too strong" for you so you need more shots because you miss and to heal yourself wich requires time that brings you back to 1)

because without the mob, eco is a bit a non-sens imo

I'm a newbie (8monthes) so I don't know but i guess there was a time where mobs were not regenerating (or not that fast) thus allowing to calculate much easier the eco of a weapon, but nowadays it seems both regen and level of the mob are very important, making it a complicate affair (maybe to balance the introduction of SIB weapons?).
I as hunter+noob (the worst combo in EU for sure, or the best for an all-loosing solution) had many problems with the theorical calculations of my DPP before I started to check my real stats on ET in-and-after my runs (eg I did 3-4 times the prowler-stalker berycled and daikiba events at lvl 10-20, persued they were mobs for my level because of the name...I was burning 3-4 peds/mob just in amno, died X times with mob lost in a pack and used many FAP yay what a winner ECO calculation i made, not to mention beeing eco in an event is a non-sense).

imo there is no ECO weapon, only eco setups (each mob vs wep+armor+fap costs, or even better "total spent"/X mobs killed" if you hunt same maturity and same mob) and the most of them still remain to be found by me as my lvl moves relatively fast (lvl 41 now) so you better confront your theoric datas with "reality of the playground"

serendipitingely

filibert

 

[CozMoDan]

the best way to determine eco would be to take Oleg formulas regarding what wep you use, and then confronting
1) its dps with the regeneration rate of the mob you hunt to see how many "addition shots" you need (h400 l maxed is quite eco but not on an ambulimax dominant that regens good and has decent hp). Hence, the amp is as important as the weapon itself if the mob regen.
2)your level with the mob to see how many "lost shots" you need because the mob -if it's the case- is "too strong" for you so you need more shots because you miss and to heal yourself wich requires time that brings you back to 1)

because without the mob, eco is a bit a non-sens imo

I'm a newbie (8monthes) so I don't know but i guess there was a time where mobs were not regenerating (or not that fast) thus allowing to calculate much easier the eco of a weapon, but nowadays it seems both regen and level of the mob are very important, making it a complicate affair (maybe to balance the introduction of SIB weapons?).
I as hunter+noob (the worst combo in EU for sure, or the best for an all-loosing solution) had many problems with the theorical calculations of my DPP before I started to check my real stats on ET in-and-after my runs (eg I did 3-4 times the prowler-stalker berycled and daikiba events at lvl 10-20, persued they were mobs for my level because of the name...I was burning 3-4 peds/mob just in amno, died X times with mob lost in a pack and used many FAP yay what a winner ECO calculation i made, not to mention beeing eco in an event is a non-sense).

imo there is no ECO weapon, only eco setups (each mob vs wep+armor+fap costs, or even better "total spent"/X mobs killed" if you hunt same maturity and same mob) and the most of them still remain to be found by me as my lvl moves relatively fast (lvl 41 now) so you better confront your theoric datas with "reality of the playground"

serendipitingely

filibert

I mostly agree with what you say and it makes sense. Having said that the only problem I see is one would spend as much, if not more, time on calulations and figuring than hunting. I like the quick and dirty method of using DPP for most ECO and hope the rest will take care of itself. I find out very quickly which mobs are a little too much for me after the hunt and see that my fap decay is 20 ped instead of 3 or 4 ped and the number of mobs I kill is low compared with others, uning the same amount of ammo.

Anyway I think most everything posted here is good, one just needs to use the one that fits him or her.
Peace.

 

[buckaroobanzai]

... 1) its dps with the regeneration rate of the mob you hunt to see how many "addition shots" you need (h400 l maxed is quite eco but not on an ambulimax dominant that regens good and has decent hp). Hence, the amp is as important as the weapon itself if the mob regen.
...

This is not correct. It was shown a number of times (most notably by Grave shooting a daspletor with a Mann, search on this forum) that the loot is dependent on the damage inflicted to a mob and not to the mob initial HP. Therefore the regeneration somehow self-compensates.
The real economy difference would come from the additional armor and fap costs you incur by standing in front of a mob (and taking hits) for a longer time, but in this case there is no formula as it depends on many factors (eg. which armor you are using, how much evade/dodge you have, etc).

Take care,
BBB

 

[Spawn]

This is not correct. It was shown a number of times (most notably by Grave shooting a daspletor with a Mann, search on this forum) that the loot is dependent on the damage inflicted to a mob and not to the mob initial HP. Therefore the regeneration somehow self-compensates.
The real economy difference would come from the additional armor and fap costs you incur by standing in front of a mob (and taking hits) for a longer time, but in this case there is no formula as it depends on many factors (eg. which armor you are using, how much evade/dodge you have, etc).

Take care,
BBB

maybe that is the case on a mob that always loots. but making extra costs by doing extra shots due to regen and getting the yellow line " this mob didnt give jackshit" does make a difference in my book. Getting a mob shot as fast as possible with the highest dpp is the new eco in my book.
On low regen mobs the two guns compare (if as op said you have level 100)
on high regne mobs they are different and the delta is the choice.

 

[byubi]

DPP dont lie the higher the more ECO the weapon is.

but afaik the markup of the L guns is not counted in the DPS showed in entropedia... so you have to calculate your own DPP with the right MU to get an exact value.

PS: amps can make you're weapon more/less ECO.

 

[Spawn]

On a more practical note, low decay weapons seem to give me less loss then high decay weapons. If the dps of two weapons is the same, I would go with the low decay one. But I cannot prove this, I just notice it when i get back to the tt to count my loss.

 

[Jura]

maybe that is the case on a mob that always loots. but making extra costs by doing extra shots due to regen and getting the yellow line " this mob didnt give jackshit" does make a difference in my book. Getting a mob shot as fast as possible with the highest dpp is the new eco in my book.
On low regen mobs the two guns compare (if as op said you have level 100)
on high regne mobs they are different and the delta is the choice.

No-looters make no difference, because both, weapon cost and loot value are scaled by total mob HP (that includes regen). You can view regen mobs as mobs with no regen, where their total HP depends on the weapon used. So, if just weapon costs are considered, there's no difference if they have regen or not. What remains variable though, are defense costs (higher with low DPS, lower with high DPS).

 

[filibert]

It was shown a number of times (most notably by Grave shooting a daspletor with a Mann, search on this forum) that the loot is dependent on the damage inflicted to a mob and not to the mob initial HP. Therefore the regeneration somehow self-compensates.
BBB

thanks for your correction, it brings me to another question then: you would include the loot value in the eco concept? in this case the loot compensates itself ok, but not on a direct effect on firsmob, so it's another story of "you must have 2k peds to hunt daikiba young if you want a chance to reach the 90% return before bankrupt" but as you do less mobs with same budget (mobs same hp, one regens and other not), I would consider that it is more eco to hunt the one not regning because more of mobs/hunt would approx mean chances to reach the return rate with less "risk"

loot is horrible whatever I use so indeed imo the loot value is excluded of the eco concept or i'd go depressed, for me it's just: more of the same mobs with the same budget

 

[wizzszz]

Damage per PEC is a good start if you want to compare eco, but damage per second plays a role, too - especially on high regen mobs, more damage per second can become way more important than the "naked" dmg/pec rate.

And, faster kill = less armour decay, less fap decay...



To sum this up, i'd say costs/kill can tell way more about how eco you hunt... and this cannot be determined by crunching numbers only...
The only way: Compare field tests with different setups over several 100s of kills.

 

[filibert]

but afaik the markup of the L guns is not counted in the DPS showed in entropedia... so you have to calculate your own DPP with the right MU to get an exact value.

There is in Entropedia for about 1-2 monthes that function when you go into the weapon datas you can select "Markup based" and it calculates the dmg/pec according to MU modif (and it's scary most of time)

 

[lilac]

No-looters make no difference, because both, weapon cost and loot value are scaled by total mob HP (that includes regen). You can view regen mobs as mobs with no regen, where their total HP depends on the weapon used. So, if just weapon costs are considered, there's no difference if they have regen or not. What remains variable though, are defense costs (higher with low DPS, lower with high DPS).

That doesn't make too much sense...

seeing as how it's more expensive to kill 2000 hp than it is to kill 1000 hp, a no looter on a mob that's been able to regenerate is more expensive than a no looter on a mob that has been killed quickly...

 

[Oleg]

That doesn't make too much sense...

seeing as how it's more expensive to kill 2000 hp than it is to kill 1000 hp, a no looter on a mob that's been able to regenerate is more expensive than a no looter on a mob that has been killed quickly...

But the % return remains the same - 0% either way

 

[Jura]

That doesn't make too much sense...

seeing as how it's more expensive to kill 2000 hp than it is to kill 1000 hp, a no looter on a mob that's been able to regenerate is more expensive than a no looter on a mob that has been killed quickly...

Yes, a SINGLE no-looter will be more expensive with regen (if you get loot at all). But, OVERALL, there is NO difference in return % (assuming no overkill, same dmg/pec, disregarding defense costs and that loot value scales with total damage done).

If a 1000 HP mob regens for extra 1000 HP, the cost to kill doubles, but also loot value doubles. Therefore, total cost of a run doubles, but total return also doubles. There's no difference in return % between total_return/total_cost (no regen) and [2*total_return]/[2*total_cost] (with regen). Just to point out the obvious: both fractions evaluate to identical values.

I also did a simulation comparing a 50 DPS weapon vs 75 DPS weapon vs a regen mob, for 100000 kills. The return came out the same for both weapons (slightly worse for higher DPS due to overkill). No-looter rate was set to 10%, payout to 90%. Sample result:

50 DPS:
totalCost: 7600000
totalLoot: 6845753.2500107
noLootCount: 9865
totalDmgDone: 379750000
roi: 0.90075700658036


75 DPS:
totalCost: 5100000
totalLoot: 4540587.508809
noLootCount: 9964
totalDmgDone: 252153999.99976
roi: 0.89031127623706

No-looters made no difference between both weapons, as expected, although total cost for low DPS weapon was 1.5x due to regen.

I hope it makes sense now that it makes no sense thinking no-looters make low DPS worse for regen mobs.

 

[filibert]

yay Jura but money is limited, that is called reality. Now let's both take 100 ped as our budget and go hunt the same mob, and let's say we tune it perfectly so that you can kill one ambulimax with your 100 ped and I can kill 20. You really think with ONE loot you gonna have a loot of 20 times my average loot on 20? yay sure...gimme the weed. Now let's say you have a no loot. Your budget is now 0 how are you doing for your next hunt? ilimited money deposited until reaching the return rate then?

So it's cool: we calculate the regen speed of the mob and then we go +1 for the dps or even +0,1 and bingo we kill one mob/hour but each time it's a global!! nice story... OR to reach return rate of 90% wich requires X mobs, we just need to play 5 millions hours instead of 100 but of course, in theory it's the same as we are immortal he?...OR it implicates you just need less mobs to reach the 90% return as you are spending the same amount as I do but on less mobs. lol

So yes you can simulate what you want, but beeing eco is trying to disminish the losses and avoid the risk of having a serie of bad runs that lets you with 0 ped wich makes impossible any more hunt unless you reinject money in it... go spend 200 peds amno with a mann on a daspletor because loot value depends on damage done is definitely not what I call as eco as hunting feffoids with a h400L

 

[Jura]

You really think with ONE loot you gonna have a loot of 20 times my average loot on 20? yay sure...gimme the weed.

Well, it would be really hard to hit your exact average, I admit, but if I got a global and you got all crap loot, you'd have a really hard time beating my 1 kill average return of 2345% with your 20 kill average return, unless you got 20 globals in a row or a nice uber loot. I know, it's ridiculous, but it's a ridiculously small sample size. Here's the weed.

 

[CozMoDan]

Whoa the facts and figures came out all of a sudden and that is what confussed me before. But I will re-read a few times and see if I can understand a little more each time.

For the few of you talking about mob HP and mob regen I have a question.
Some of you said that the amount of loot from a mob depends on starting HP of the mob plus regen hits. (When I say "amount of loot" I mean the factoring that is used for loot taking in to consideration starting HP + regen)

So if that is true then would you say that it is better to kill a mob slower by allowing him to regen a bit if the factoring goes in your favor if it takes more shots to kill the mob or does the factoring go in your favor if starting HP + regen is less thus having to kill the mob as quickly as possible?

On a side note: I started in early 2007 and did some chipping-in and got up in lvl and starting using LR32 with a e-amp 15 and went up in LRs from there. I killed Atroxes and Feffs mostly and was getting about 3 gbls per day (summer 2007 I think I had about 106 gbls that month.) then 1 year later (Using more eco guns I was down to 64 in June 2008). I am sure that MA did some nerfing along the way but I did read somewhere on the forum early on in my life here that the less eco the weapon the better the loot. I do know one thing for sure there was not much eco with a LR32 and e-amp 15.

This is really good stuff please keep it up for a while.
Peace.

 

[Mordrell]

Personally I favor the lr32/41 or the hl6 as the kors H400 doesn't have the dps for the mobs I want to hunt. Also try to get weapons you can buy at low mu, about 105% is very good I would say.

When maxed and with the right amp most weapons have the about the same damage/pec stats. So I personally dont think it the dmg/pec stats matter so much as the dmg/sec stats.

 

[STYRM]

Whoa the facts and figures came out all of a sudden and that is what confussed me before. But I will re-read a few times and see if I can understand a little more each time.

For the few of you talking about mob HP and mob regen I have a question.
Some of you said that the amount of loot from a mob depends on starting HP of the mob plus regen hits. (When I say "amount of loot" I mean the factoring that is used for loot taking in to consideration starting HP + regen)

So if that is true then would you say that it is better to kill a mob slower by allowing him to regen a bit if the factoring goes in your favor if it takes more shots to kill the mob or does the factoring go in your favor if starting HP + regen is less thus having to kill the mob as quickly as possible?

On a side note: I started in early 2007 and did some chipping-in and got up in lvl and starting using LR32 with a e-amp 15 and went up in LRs from there. I killed Atroxes and Feffs mostly and was getting about 3 gbls per day (summer 2007 I think I had about 106 gbls that month.) then 1 year later (Using more eco guns I was down to 64 in June 2008). I am sure that MA did some nerfing along the way but I did read somewhere on the forum early on in my life here that the less eco the weapon the better the loot. I do know one thing for sure there was not much eco with a LR32 and e-amp 15.

This is really good stuff please keep it up for a while.
Peace.

the facts and figures is a really important part to know about! you have to learn them..

 

[Jennson]

...
On a side note: I started in early 2007 and did some chipping-in and got up in lvl and starting using LR32 with a e-amp 15 and went up in LRs from there. I killed Atroxes and Feffs mostly and was getting about 3 gbls per day (summer 2007 I think I had about 106 gbls that month.) then 1 year later (Using more eco guns I was down to 64 in June 2008). I am sure that MA did some nerfing along the way but I did read somewhere on the forum early on in my life here that the less eco the weapon the better the loot. I do know one thing for sure there was not much eco with a LR32 and e-amp 15.
....

Well there are some small tests which indicate ( not proof ) that the return stays around 90% even with unmaxed/uneco weapons. Well in this case you have the feeling of better loot because with less mobs killed you might get more minis globals in a few mobs killed due to higher cost. But still 90% return. ( assuming there is a fixed return rate in this scenario )

Well what difference DOES eco do then ? Let's say you use a weapon setup that is uneco and you pay 1000 PED in a given timeframe.

Let's say the one that plays the eco way can kill the X > 1 factor of mobs but still gets his 90% return. That means he can kill more mobs with his money and recieve more playtime for the same money, the winner in this scenario is the eco player who gets more bang for the buck.

Recently i am doing some tests with unmaxed oldstyle weapons and my runs so far have around 88% return ( almost 5k PED cycled which is far from being enough for final conclusions ). Well the time i can play on the same amount of PEDs is shorter, because one run killing the same amount of mobs is around 30 PED more expensive ( yes 1 run ). And so even with 90% return i run out of PEDs faster. ( When just considering TT amount in a hypothetical scenario ).

It seems i can trigger more biggies with that uneco setup, but for a reasonable price for a weapon i have difficulties to get up to good dps with my skills with oldstyle guns. ( Without the money to buy uber guns ). And here are SIB weapons still filling a gap where ppl can reach uber dps in midlevel skill range, because they can use the full potential of the SIB weapons. ( e.g. Svempa X1 + Dante + 5x dmg enhancer ~89 dps ~2.8dpp maxed @ Level 41 vs. MM +A204@ same level 72.4 dps @2.57 dpp but for a HUGE pricetag) .

Today every player can get huge dps for reasonable amount of investment with (L) gear and midlevel skills. Yes not uber eco, there are still skills needed, but there is no difference in Oldstyle and SIB for Uber Eco you allways needed skills, but at least you get reasonable eco with SIB and so also reasonable playtime. Ofc higher dps means higher costs in general and so the playtime streching effect even sums up a lot with more eco gear, because it's quite easy to reach high turnover with such a setup )

 

[Brumle]

i would say its hard to figure out....

i have been in team hunts before where we used p5a (L) and we where all maxed on em...

mob : scipuler/formidon
me ghost+5b - korss p5a(L)+A103
him martial+5b - korss p5a(L)+A104

i had worst armor so i fapped most - he had the lowest skills.

and in the end i had gotten most loot even tho i hadnt used the most ammo.

so i would say that even tho your maxed on a weapon it doesnt always mean you use it to the best.

 

[Jura]

For the few of you talking about mob HP and mob regen I have a question.
Some of you said that the amount of loot from a mob depends on starting HP of the mob plus regen hits. (When I say "amount of loot" I mean the factoring that is used for loot taking in to consideration starting HP + regen)

So if that is true then would you say that it is better to kill a mob slower by allowing him to regen a bit if the factoring goes in your favor if it takes more shots to kill the mob or does the factoring go in your favor if starting HP + regen is less thus having to kill the mob as quickly as possible?

If two weapons have equal economy (dmg/pec), the higher DPS weapon is better (assuming you avoid overkill), because you'll have less armor/fap decay per kill (i.e.: cheaper kills, higher return %). So, it's never in your favor to kill a mob slowly - not in the long run. Unless the efficiency of a weaker weapon offsets all additional defense costs.