Response on Bad Loot and my MA tracked 91% Returns

Xen

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"Community" expectations from the looks of it. As discussed in other loot threads, if someone is expected 95-98% TT long-term, they can't really expect MA to sustain that long-term. The norm has always been closer to 90% across professions even if it seemed like we had a surge across professions just last year. If that was a change by MA that got rolled back because it wasn't really sustainable, then that rollback is just going back to the norm.

No, that is NOT what the norm is.
 

i.cromme

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some hunting statistics from me
https://imgur.com/a/0HUYwbG

2017: 156k spend, -11k lost (-5.5k after mu)
2018: 480k spend, -31k lost (-2k after mu)
2019: 310k spend, -21k lost (-13k after mu)
 
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Geralt

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You will always loose. No matter what. Especially after Loot 2.0


MindArk is a company. A business. They hire 40+ people. Those people need to make money. They have families, mortgages, financial obligations. Company must pay taxes, health insurance, pension contribution, rent, bills.
You must pay MindArk more than they pay you to keep them alive.


You may try to make up some losses by getting money from other players (markup) or trading (reselling). That is all.

The House always wins.


Get over it or leave.
 

wizz

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You will always loose. No matter what. Especially after Loot 2.0


MindArk is a company. A business. They hire 40+ people. Those people need to make money. They have families, mortgages, financial obligations. Company must pay taxes, health insurance, pension contribution, rent, bills.
You must pay MindArk more than they pay you to keep them alive.


You may try to make up some losses by getting money from other players (markup) or trading (reselling). That is all.

The House always wins.


Get over it or leave.


Aren't casino's the same?

Would you play at a roulette table when there a 0, 00, 000, 0000, 00000, 000000 and 000000 as extra numbers?
In other words, if the rake gets to high, people won't play anymore.

And MA should very carefully look at that rake.

Yes sure, MA is a company. But a companies sole right of existence is their customer base.

And "get over it or leave" is not the most customer friendly attitude a company can have.

Maybe if they would have product people would kill for, but let's be honest, staring at the same mob going pfew pfew 24/7 is not exactly a killer product, is it?

So MA should better listen to their customers if they want to keep paying the salaries of those 40+ people. :wise:
 

Geralt

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Aren't casino's the same?

Would you play at a roulette table when there a 0, 00, 000, 0000, 00000, 000000 and 000000 as extra numbers?
In other words, if the rake gets to high, people won't play anymore.

And MA should very carefully look at that rake.

Yes sure, MA is a company. But a companies sole right of existence is their customer base.

And "get over it or leave" is not the most customer friendly attitude a company can have.

Maybe if they would have product people would kill for, but let's be honest, staring at the same mob going pfew pfew 24/7 is not exactly a killer product, is it?

So MA should better listen to their customers if they want to keep paying the salaries of those 40+ people. :wise:

Of course I would not play such casino game. One 0 is all i can accept. That is why I took a break from EU till March. MA should better listen but they won't. They are known for their ignorance and lack of respect for customers.

Nothing will change. "Get over it or leave" is not customer friendly, yes. But that what you should do if you do not accept the current state of Entropia. Moaning and crying over your returns will change nothing. We have already had hundreds threads like this and nothing changed. Loot is still strange, boring, bad, exhausting, brings no fun.

There is no reward for effort. I play other games because I know my effort will bring me prize that gives me pleasure from playing.

I see no reason to go from Animal Looter 12lvl to 54lvl just to see same or even worse returns and still extremely low chance to loot anything interesting.

EU is just a product, one of many. There are many things, including gaming, out there and God help me but I just have spend 36 USD on Tennogen items in Warframe and I am glad cuz my warframes look good and I am happy. I could deposit that but I didn't. I dont have to pay for product I dont like. I am OK with loosing, I am aware that casino house always wins. The issue is that we don't get much prizes for our efforts. That how you loose motivation to play.
 

wizz

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Of course I would not play such casino game. One 0 is all i can accept. That is why I took a break from EU till March. MA should better listen but they won't. They are known for their ignorance and lack of respect for customers.

Nothing will change. "Get over it or leave" is not customer friendly, yes. But that what you should do if you do not accept the current state of Entropia. Moaning and crying over your returns will change nothing. We have already had hundreds threads like this and nothing changed. Loot is still strange, boring, bad, exhausting, brings no fun.

There is no reward for effort. I play other games because I know my effort will bring me prize that gives me pleasure from playing.

I see no reason to go from Animal Looter 12lvl to 54lvl just to see same or even worse returns and still extremely low chance to loot anything interesting.

EU is just a product, one of many. There are many things, including gaming, out there and God help me but I just have spend 36 USD on Tennogen items in Warframe and I am glad cuz my warframes look good and I am happy. I could deposit that but I didn't. I dont have to pay for product I dont like. I am OK with loosing, I am aware that casino house always wins. The issue is that we don't get much prizes for our efforts. That how you loose motivation to play.


exactly!
But, people only moan and cry if they care about something.
If they wouldn't have cared, they would just have left without the crying part.

So I guess MA should cherish our cries and prevent us from leaving.

But yeah, you're right, MA shows very little signs they care about their customers.
I've seldomly seen companies with worse style of customer service and communication than MA.
I'm not mentioning the support team, because I do think they try to help as good as they can, but on management level this company is totally ignorant, or at least looks totally ignorant towards it's customer base.
 

Guarana

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This is what players wanted. Can't have the cake and eat it too you know.
 

allarom

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... My main melee set up lately has been Genesis Sparkbite with Eco enhancers, Melee VI amp so I can convert shrapnel to get the 101% I unlocked commando with swords so on larger mobs I still use them.

Ranged I use Isis LC 55 CDF from token trader with Mayhem Gamma Amp for 3.16 Dpp

MF since I am working on Intuition I am using a Corrosive 8 UL Chip with 6 amp

This is some really low efficiency gear you are using there. DPP is totally irrelevant when it comes to tt return. Improve efficiency, gain some more looter levels and grind more, it took me ~1M cycle last time until i did hit multiple nice hofs that produced expected long term returns
 

Xen

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This is some really low efficiency gear you are using there. DPP is totally irrelevant when it comes to tt return. Improve efficiency, gain some more looter levels and grind more, it took me ~1M cycle last time until i did hit multiple nice hofs that produced expected long term returns

No, it's normal efficiency. Efficiency with which I got 95-96% tt return over 100's of thousands of peds cycled previous to recently.

91% should only happen with shit like Swine Deluxe.

Something is wrong and the game is fucked up and I'm fed up with it.
 

wizz

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This is some really low efficiency gear you are using there. DPP is totally irrelevant when it comes to tt return. Improve efficiency, gain some more looter levels and grind more, it took me ~1M cycle last time until i did hit multiple nice hofs that produced expected long term returns

yeah, you were right. The loot has lost it's volatility.

Instead of constantly shfting from 60% to 130% it's now set to a steady 60~70% return.
And if you're extremely lucky to get the multiplier on the right mob, it might lift you to the +90% return.

As it is now, loot seems totally broken.
For small time hunters (regardless of level) it doesnt make sense to do any daily missions except the daily 1.
You will get the usual 60% return on the 2 and 3 dailies and a 90% on the daily 1.

So unless you hunt the same mob endlessly, as you wrote a "~1M cycle" dont bother to do anything at all, since it will just bleed you completely dry.

But hey, since I'm just the only small time hunter around and everybody else can easily cycle a million ped, who am I to judge, right?
 

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Agreed 100%, 91% is crazy low.

hahaha you should see my return (80%), 91 % is a hope for me and not , im not using swine deluxe
 

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To OP:

Do you keep precise logs yourself?

If so:

Do those numbers in the support case match what you show in your own logs?

If not:

You just trust MA is calculating them correctly without any transparency about how the data is gathered and how they are calculated? I could just paste 3 numbers into a support ticket and tell you that's your returns and you take it as gospel?


Would be interested to see if the results for someone who does keep very precise logs matches what MA gives them.

I do keep precize logs and just asked support for my returns of the past 3 months.

[Conspiracy Mode] They can read my log too, and gather from time of posting plus what I write when I did wich hunt and thus make a calculated guess what my returns are. [/Conspiracy Mode]

Another small thing to take into consideration: I can start a hunt at 23:00 on the last day of the month and hunt till 02:00. For me, that's one hunt done on that day. MA could say it's 1/3 done on one month and 2/3 on the next. But I don't think that applies to any hunt I did past 3 months.
 

Geralt

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If you are long enough here and in game you know one fact: All our concerns and effort here is futile.

Look how many AMA questions still are left without answer, many of them so important. They say they read the forum on a daily basis. Yes, maybe they do, but they do not respond to our calls. It just looks like they do not give a single damnn as long as steady flow of money go to their pockets.

That is why I repeat my statement: Your effort is futile.

Thread should be closed.
 

wizz

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If you are long enough here and in game you know one fact: All our concerns and effort here is futile.

Look how many AMA questions still are left without answer, many of them so important. They say they read the forum on a daily basis. Yes, maybe they do, but they do not respond to our calls. It just looks like they do not give a single damnn as long as steady flow of money go to their pockets.

That is why I repeat my statement: Your effort is futile.

Thread should be closed.

No, not closed at all.

In that case, leave it open for all to see and use it as a warning to other players.

Closing the thread would only help MA cover it up again.
 

The Abomb

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No, it's normal efficiency. Efficiency with which I got 95-96% tt return over 100's of thousands of peds cycled previous to recently.

91% should only happen with shit like Swine Deluxe.

Something is wrong and the game is fucked up and I'm fed up with it.

Bingo! I re-opened the support case and linked this thread since it was closed. However we need more answers! It would be great if we can get more MA Official interaction and if the system actually works as it is intended.

This isn't a player issue this is an MA issues with tweaking the loot dropping the returns 5+% TT. I didn't make this thread looking for personal hunting advice. I made it to open up a discussion to fix the loot for the community.

This is some really low efficiency gear you are using there. DPP is totally irrelevant when it comes to tt return. Improve efficiency, gain some more looter levels and grind more, it took me ~1M cycle last time until i did hit multiple nice hofs that produced expected long term returns

Also I have gotten well within the loot 2.0 95-98% in the past with a corrosive dagger and half the looter level. I have way more skills, gear and knowledge of the game now. However the loot was changed. Together we can figure this out.

If my returns were sub par and 95% I would change something to bring it up. If nothing I do can generate past 91-92% then you think that is something I am doing all of a sudden? Come on :eyecrazy:

This is an obvious MA issue with there so called tweaking of the loot and we would like to know what they changed because it is obviously not working out for a lot of players.
 
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Geralt

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Bingo! I re-opened the support case and linked this thread since it was closed. However we need more answers!

This isn't a player issue this is an MA issues with tweaking the loot dropping the returns 5+% TT. I didn't make this thread looking for personal hunting advice. I made it to open up a discussion to fix the loot for the community.

Also I have gotten well within the loot 2.0 95-98% in the past with a corrosive dagger and half the looter level. I have way more skills, gear and knowledge of the game now. However the loot was changed. Together we can figure this out.

Do you suggest they manipulate level of returns without proper explanation for community? If so, they commit fraud. Pure deception. Don't forget that real money is involved here. If recent drop in loot comes from intentional change in the system it means they just simply steal our money. Do you think they admit that just because you sent them this thread? They will cover that and say that Entropia is variable and it is natural.

Really, I don't think they can afford to tell te truth. We never can know if there was some changes, together we can figure out nothing.
 

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[...]I made it to open up a discussion to fix the loot for the community. [...]

My loot (and other peoples loot I'm sure) is just fine and doesn't need fixing.

No offense but if you're using Songkra Corrosive Dagger and Spakbite, if you keep mentioning good dpp (especially with these crappy tools) when talking about tt return, you do need hunting advice....

How about when at 91% you also try to ask for players that actually do well in TT what are they doing right?
Not long ago you were saying you only care about skills and progression - it's probably time you switch your strategy if you now care for TT.

I agree, 91% isn't playable at all, no matter the gear or markup, everything below 94%(med term) is terrible for a proper hunter (that wants to be self sustainable). Your 91% is probably a mix of many mistakes it seems while Xen's low return is a very bad period that's most likely going to pass sooner or later (we've all been there) since he has decent skills and equipment and game knowledge.
 
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wizz

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My loot (and other peoples loot I'm sure) is just fine and doesn't need fixing.

No offense but if you're using Songkra Corrosive Dagger and Spakbite, if you keep mentioning good dpp (especially with these crappy tools) when talking about tt return, you do need hunting advice....

How about when at 91% you also try to ask for players that actually do well in TT what are they doing right?
Not long ago you were saying you only care about skills and progression - it's probably time you switch your strategy if you now care for TT.

I agree, 91% isn't playable at all, no matter the gear or markup, everything below 94%(med term) is terrible for a proper hunter (that wants to be self sustainable). Your 91% is probably a mix of many mistakes it seems while Xen's low return is a very bad period that's most likely going to pass sooner or later (we've all been there) since he has decent skills and equipment and game knowledge.

Ah good.
Evey says it's ok.

Nothing more to see here folks, move along.

You're all just dicks and don't know what you're all doing.

So, unless you spend 100k on gear, you should just stfu and except all bad shit that comes to you.

Clear enough?
 

The Abomb

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Do you suggest they manipulate level of returns without proper explanation for community? If so, they commit fraud. Pure deception. Don't forget that real money is involved here. If recent drop in loot comes from intentional change in the system it means they just simply steal our money. Do you think they admit that just because you sent them this thread? They will cover that and say that Entropia is variable and it is natural.

Really, I don't think they can afford to tell te truth. We never can know if there was some changes, together we can figure out nothing.

First it's a gaming company they can change anything they want and really don't have to tell us about it. That's what you call hidden changes. There are tons of hidden changes in this game that aren't in the VU news.

As one of the top harvesters in the game MA increased the cost to harvest significantly. It's now cost 10 times as much. Do you remember seeing that in the VU? No of course not they didn't publish tinkering with these changes and I verified them with the other Top harvesters that also keep logs.

I can live with them making harvesting more expensive as it really was free skills but they should of openly stated they were doing that! Instead they just changed it and brushed it under the rug hoping no one would notice.

So do I think they changed something with Loot 2.0 and was hoping no one would notice? Of course, again it's a gaming company they can adjust whatever they want to do internal testing and tweaking on loot.

Is it right? No of course not but it's something that happens in games and then these hidden changes are addressed and either go away or suddenly a bug is discovered that cause the problem.

So having an open discussion about it does help figure it out together. That is why we have a great community to verify changes are actually working ;)
 

GradenFoss

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My hunting return percentage TT-wise is in a sharp decline since about the beginning of October.
I am now down about 3% below my overall l00t 2.0 average. :argue:

(Yes, I keep a very detailled spreadsheet, to the PEC.)
 

Geralt

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First it's a gaming company they can change anything they want and really don't have to tell us about it. That's what you call hidden changes. There are tons of hidden changes in this game that aren't in the VU news.

As one of the top harvesters in the game MA increased the cost to harvest significantly. It's now cost 10 times as much. Do you remember seeing that in the VU? No of course not they didn't publish tinkering with these changes and I verified them with the other Top harvesters that also keep logs.

I can live with them making harvesting more expensive as it really was free skills but they should of openly stated they were doing that! Instead they just changed it and brushed it under the rug hoping no one would notice.

So do I think they changed something with Loot 2.0 and was hoping no one would notice? Of course, again it's a gaming company they can adjust whatever they want to do internal testing and tweaking on loot.

Is it right? No of course not but it's something that happens in games and then these hidden changes are addressed and either go away or suddenly a bug is discovered that cause the problem.

So having an open discussion about it does help figure it out together. That is why we have a great community to verify changes are actually working ;)

I have once said here that casino slots are better than crafting because online casino machines need proper certification from gambling authorities and are obliged to inform player about long time returns before he starts gaming.

In EU you know nothing.
 

The Abomb

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My loot (and other peoples loot I'm sure) is just fine and doesn't need fixing.

No offense but if you're using Songkra Corrosive Dagger and Spakbite, if you keep mentioning good dpp (especially with these crappy tools) when talking about tt return, you do need hunting advice....

You are hilariously wrong. If I kill millions of mobs and I am fine, then miraculously loot takes an extreme dive the variable that has changed is the loot. Not the hunter. Again if i was getting 95% I would of just of adjusted something or invested in better gear. The fact is the loot is off and I am getting 91% which isn't acceptable and many other hunters are experiencing similar problems. You want me to invest in better gear at 91%? No, I want them to stop messing with their tweaking of the loot. They openly said that they will tweak it where needed. Obviously they did. If you disagree fine you are entitled to your opinion. However lets just be logical and the community wants better.

Again this thread isn't about improving my loot it's and attempt to fix the loot overall for the community that has been struggling to get anywhere close the the expected loot 2.0 range. What changed? Lets figure it out so we can get back to where we were :)

When loot returns back to where it was, I am looking for some sexy new gear. Until then not making any type of investment.
 
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Geralt

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So probably my theory that ban form PayPal caused significant loss in deposits for them may be true. Sweet dollars from USA are gone. :laugh:
 

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There becomes a point that a player stops shouting about it.

Depo, get globals. Then the next login set on a total global ban and card clean. Or wait 4 months for some deed cash, then it's one ok 900 ped run, followed by card clean again. It's become predictable and pathetic, I'm not entertaining it anymore.

I wouldn't mind so much if I hadn't invested in a FEN weapon last year. But the way the system works ignores the so called return percent, it's almost as if an emergency override kicks in to force a big loss with eco gear.

If the system is looking for a $500 depo, then it needs to offer a decent incentive for me to pay that. It's still a game and in 14 years or whatever time I've paid to play it, other than a few ESI's I didn't loot anything good (few decent sharpnel loots though)

Way pay for this? The law of averages would suggest it's impossible to run that length of time without looting a cool item. Add to that this event shitty token rubbish, and it's become a joke. Two event wins to get an item with a ton of of other tokens, you people actually like that?....haha. I refuse to do it.

Nahhh enough is enough. I wil dip my toe in now and then, other than that they can suck someone else dry to pay for the family members milkng the system.

It's sad what has become of the game, it feels like a battered wifes home. All the wifes moaning about their abusive husbands. They sort of still love them, but don't want to get beaten anymore. Don't get beaten anymore then, your choice :)

Rick
 

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As far as returns go I can say that this is a matter of opportunity. While having affordable gear with average efficiency, I cannot expect to break even longterm on hunting alone, instead i sometimes hunt, when there's an incentive (like now with the boxes), sometimes I mine, craft or trade, all on different planets. With a bit of luck and if you know what you're doint you have a good chance at breaking even.

TT-wize returns have been bad since the start of mayhem, but i have been able to get some markup during this period so I'll be alright. And bankroll is important, it allows you to withstand a loosing streak. Also I think that HOFs are a % of peds cycled, and they come from time to time when the reservoir is full so to speak. Of course they don't cover 100% of TT spent, the rest you need to compensate with markup.

The downside of this gameplay is that it is tiring, sometimes it feels like actual work even, like I come home from work to work some more in Entropia :scratch2:

And what about new players, the absolute majority of whom don't have any sort of bankroll, and little to no knowledge of game mechanics? They just end up quitting after a few small hunts.
 

wizz

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It's sad what has become of the game, it feels like a battered wifes home. All the wifes moaning about their abusive husbands. They sort of still love them, but don't want to get beaten anymore. Don't get beaten anymore then, your choice :)

Rick

yes, we're all suffering from the stockholm syndrome and we're all a bunch of masochistic sobs. :tongue2:
 

DuckiX

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I kinda think, that loot is terrible for example 4 of 10 days. Okish for 4, good for one and great for 1. If a player only playing on those 4 terrible days. rekt. If he never plays on good/great days. Rekt.

Maybe my just a feeling, but on those good/great days, its the recycle crafters who notice and milk it out.

Simply if you arent playing, when MA feels like giving u a little bit, you are set for a miserable result.

And thats just sad, shouldnt be like that. Loot is dynamic, unless you are only able to play on bad days, otherwise its not dynamic.

This is ofc just an example. But i kinda believe, that if you are in wrong time on wrong place, or just in wrong time is enough, its rekt, no matter what. And that is wrong settings in my opinion.
 

The Abomb

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My hunting return percentage TT-wise is in a sharp decline since about the beginning of October.
I am now down about 3% below my overall l00t 2.0 average. :argue:

(Yes, I keep a very detailled spreadsheet, to the PEC.)

Exactly! Hopefully we can have transparency on what changed. Heck if MA changed something that's fine we will adjust but if they decided to make some variable more important all of a sudden. That should be open and stated in the VU instead of the community having to discover these hidden changes.

Think that is really all we can ask in fairness.
 

jetsina

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And what about new players, the absolute majority of whom don't have any sort of bankroll, and little to no knowledge of game mechanics? They just end up quitting after a few small hunts.

I read that first time round as "...quitting after a few small hurts. " that somehow feels just as true. How many 'hurts' are you prepared to take?

The problem if MA are trying to find this out too, is that you have to kill things if you want to see what they won't survive. And they seem to keep poking and prodding their players like cattle instead of treating us the way customers should be.

On the point about a casino being a better place for a gambler because at least the probabilities are known, is say: exactly! Waiting for a recovery HOF in EU is like buying scratchcards from someone who doesn't even have to disclose what prizes are in the 'mix'.

As long as EU had multis at payout of approximately: double the multi = half the probability, it was possible to estimate a presumed potential payback against the smaller payback frequencies. It could be done with event stars, for example. Somewhat simplified, collecting 100x 1 point, 50x 2 points, 25x 5 points, 12x 10 points, 6x 20 points, 1x 100 points ... could indicate you had been a bit unlucky not getting any 50 pointers and that doing the same volume of mobs again may give you a few 50s and a reasonable expectation of getting 1x 200 points as well.

That relationship of approximate spread on loots now appears to have disappeared. I can get 20x 10multi, but nothing higher, even though much higher multies exist/used to exist. The tracker has been good for showing what still exists (maybe a bit rarely) even if you aren't getting it. The days of large snables or exaro spring to mind.

In short: I no longer have even my own unofficial way to try and calculate expectancies. This is not encouraging for me to cycle howver many k peds in the future, and especially not right now when I can't even get a 10x multi to pay me a visit, let alone a x50 or a x100! NB: On a 5-10 pec mob I still can, but not on 5-10 ped mobs, apparently.
 
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