Suggestion: tier system re-balancing for costs, ingredient availability, extreme slowness in some categories

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girtsn

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Dear MA,

wanted to post this in the dev corner but seems it is closed for new threads

1. with the current state of the game, aren't tier costs of higher level items except some top event winner dps just out of balance? e.g.

  • imk2 tier costs to t10 were and are considered extremely high @ 64k peds tt, probably ~ 95k peds incl. MU - only one person ingame was dedicated enough / earning enough so far to push it all the way in all these years tiering was available for it
  • modfap used to be one of the most expensive pre v2 more so than imk2 but seeing that nobody rushes to buy the FEN equivalent for ~90k or less, what's the hope of anyone tiering it up at that cost?
  • the high level armor tier costs are just utterly unreasonable when parts are expensive already and then multiplied with 7

--> v2 -->

  • all newer weapons seem to give crazy stats and then even crazier high tier costs way more than than the previous generation
  • arso chip 4 is 10x the tier costs of arso chip 3, I remember there was a fix for arso chip 3 after people complained about its tier costs being crazy - suppose arso chip 4 again same formula applied?

is this what you meant with v2 - new weapons that would offer endless possibilities?

shouln't it be aligned with today's reality of item prices iso 2007 item prices?

2. some tier components are quite N/A like mentioned here and reflected in the component prices
* tier 3, 7, 8 components
* opals

just an idea for tier enhancer and gem etc. availability - maybe those could drop from all the mayhem's as there are usually instances 1-10 or 1-5 they could drop needed tiering components 1-10 as well
this could create also a tiering mayhem during the events not only chipout + other types of mayhems
better than crapnel anyway

3. also fap tier slowness is crazy, my modfap has been sitting @ t5.5 for like 1/2 year using it daily

P.S.
this is by a one of the finest tier junkies who spent ~50k tiering just in the last 3 months - but even I have a limit comparing arso chip 3 to 4...
 
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the bp 20 FEN costs roughly 400 ped tt for first tier which makes it for t0 to t10 a ttcost of roughly 22k peds and with mu probably around 25k peds minimum, rather looking at 27k peds. at an item cost of maybe 8k peds. so why pay 3 times the value of a gun to get it to tier 10? rather buy a bigger gun... seems to be a bad concept.
especially regarding that nobody will ever pay you the tiering costs back in case you wanne sell it. at least not at 100% and most of the time not even at 50%. which means tiering it to 10 and then selling it will most likely yield a loss of >10k peds. for a lvl 20 pistol lol
 

Captain Jack

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Part of me agrees that the tiering system needs an overhaul, but the devil's advocate asks "what about those who have already invested hundreds of thousands into tier costs?"
Are we supposed to just say "sucks to suck" and expect those people to eat a huge loss while the rapid tiering of other items deflates the value of their heavy investment?
 

girtsn

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think that was what they did with arso chip 3 anyway - or did they maybe get a compensation?
for reference see ath #33 of arso chip 3 tier 3 by Stryker
sure enough any re-balancing would screw someone, has not prevented to do it anyway
in this case its one of the few ways how MA gets PEDs out of all levels of players so not getting my hopes up
Part of me agrees that the tiering system needs an overhaul, but the devil's advocate asks "what about those who have already invested hundreds of thousands into tier costs?"
Are we supposed to just say "sucks to suck" and expect those people to eat a huge loss while the rapid tiering of other items deflates the value of their heavy investment?
 

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I seem to remember something from 2015...

Tier Upgrade Tokens
These special tokens can be used to tier up an item by one level, up to the maximum tier level indicated in the token name. Contact support with one of the Tier Upgrade Tokens in your inventory, specifying which item you would like to tier up.

Examples:
A Tier Upgrade Token 2 can be redeemed to raise the tier of any tier 1 item to tier 2.
A Tier Upgrade Token 5 can be redeemed to raise the tier of any item with tier 4 or lower by one tier level.
Not sure why they were discontinued.
 

MsPudding

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I'm on the fence about this one. If these new weapons are meant to hold top spots in the available arsenal I'm okay with the higher tier costs. Although, I do think they should revisit the costs and maybe lower them just a tad. On the other hand, if these weapons simply get replaced in a year or two by something else much more uber -- that's really gonna suck for those that tiered them up. In which case, these tier costs should be cut in half or even more.

There's no question several of these new items will be absolutely dominant in their respective CAT's when tiered up. My hope is that MA allows the investors time to recoup their tier costs by being able to compete in several Mayhem's for several years before they just drop Loot 3.0 weapons.

I'm not advocating that loot 2.0 weapons simply win Mayhem every time, I'm just saying I'd like to see loot 2.0 weapons be the gold standard for a few years to come at the very least. I know personally I'm working my way up to being able to claim one of the weapons, and I know many others who are as well.

2 cents
 

MsPudding

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I seem to remember something from 2015...



Not sure why they were discontinued.

Just remember, MA is making a lot of $ on these new Loot 2.0 weapon tiers.
 

slither

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Tiering costs are insane and need adjusting, simple as that. Sure it's gonna hurt some, but I often see items selling for less than their tiering costs now due to deflation. I think most people realize that, in most circumstances, tiering costs are not going to be returned when they sell an item.
 

Zayka

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If tiers cost so expasive for you - just dont tier it up thats it, its not must be easy, fast and cheap. I know true reason this thread - last 3 tiers on knife. Аnd thank god that for example some crazy uber doesn't run in pvp with perfected heddoc T10 in immortal mode
 
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Lovely Bella

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If tiers cost so expasive for you - just dont tier it up thats it, its not must be easy, fast and cheap. I know true reason this thread - last 3 tiers on knife. Аnd thank god that for example some crazy uber doesn't run in pvp with perfected heddoc T10 in immortal mode
Well said Zayka
 

Captain Jack

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If tiers cost so expasive for you - just dont tier it up thats it, its not must be easy, fast and cheap. I know true reason this thread - last 3 tiers on knife. Аnd thank god that for example some crazy uber doesn't run in pvp with perfected heddoc T10 in immortal mode
Tier costs appear to be related to the cost to use the item. Assuming the decay scale follows the same trends as the other hedoc mayhem series, the perfected hedoc mayhem decays significantly more than the mod fap - meaning it's cost to tier to 10 would actually be remarkably reasonable by comparison.

Also I don't think Smilgs was ever asking for it to be "easy, fast, and cheap", considering what he has already spent on tiering his own equipment. Of course he wants more reasonable cost on his blade - and why shouldn't he? Without competing in Mayhem events (I have never seen him place) his only hope of recovering his tier costs are from grinding, and at current tier costs along with MA's track record of changing vital game mechanics, it is highly unlikely that he will recover his grinding costs before MA changes something.
Say what you will, but I think that is a broken system. If the best equipment equipment is being used on one of the highest skilled avatars in game for 20+ hours/day and still can't break even with tier costs, there is a problem there.
 

Xen

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I agree in general. I think there would be a lot more tiering if it wasn't so expensive. Maybe take the Walmart approach rather than the Rodeo Drive approach.

There are armor parts you can buy for 3-5k that cost over 3k tt just to get to tier 2. So you spend almost double the cost of the armor to get 10% more protection. That's crazy.
 
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Zayka

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Moreover, on many guns, especially newbies, tiers option is just useless
 

girtsn

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I'm frustrated by people who think they know what I am thinking and think that everything about me is selfish :)
If that were the reason I would have written this before doing t5 then t6 and then t7 at t7 components over 400% and aimk2 t9 as well. And it is not a knife, mr knowitall.
Anyway not that I have to explain myself to someone like you, but I have been thinking writing this since the introduction of v2 weapons seeing the tier costs. It was the arso chip 4 being 10x more expensive than chip 3 that tipped me off finally.
I know true reason this thread - last 3 tiers on knife.
 
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MsPudding

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Maybe they ought introduce micro benefits for tiering loot 2.0 weapons to help justify the super high costs. Say for example a chart like this:

Tier 1-3: Increase attack speed 1%
Tier 4-5: Increase attack speed 1.25% and +.2% crit chance
Tier 5-7: Increase attack speed 1.5% and +.4% crit chance
Tier 8-9: Increase attack speed 1.75% and +.6% crit chance
Tier 10: Increase attack speed 2% and +.8% crit chance and + .5% lifesteal

I'm just making up those #'s as an example. But my thought is, if you're going to charge the players 50k or 90k to get their gun to a high tier, put a little carrot in there for them. Then all of a sudden their weapon holds a little more value when they try and sell. It should not be a crazy overpowered advantage, but it could be a slight one.

The buffs could even be something to increase your looter level, they don't have to be the one's listed above. MA could be creative with it and do different buffs for different types of weapons.

Just an idea...
 

girtsn

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imho no new system needed just make the costs reasonable
and since the most of the advantage these days is for dps / hps / pps (damage health protection), just base it on those + range - dpp and efficiency harly relate to tiers with the new and brave return system
 

Zayka

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Say what you will, but I think that is a broken system. If the best equipment equipment is being used on one of the highest skilled avatars in game for 20+ hours/day and still can't break even with tier costs, there is a problem there.
I strongly doubt that the problem is in equipment....
 

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Tier costs are fine, the availability of the materials is the real issue. Because of tier junkies that switch guns very often and are also tiering up all taggers, predamagers, finishers, faps, armors, basically EVERYTHING from inventory that can be tiered and also have 0 patience. When you make a price already high for tier, 3-5 times higher then it becomes a problem so you end up whining on the forum about it and maybe throw some dirt here and there to mask a low iq level.
 

Zayka

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Tier costs are fine, the availability of the materials is the real issue. Because of tier junkies that switch guns very often and are also tiering up all taggers, predamagers, finishers, faps, armors, basically EVERYTHING from inventory that can be tiered and also have 0 patience. When you make a price already high for tier, 3-5 times higher then it becomes a problem so you end up whining on the forum about it and maybe throw some dirt here and there to mask a low iq level.
Because most important thing in their lifes is sum of total skill and a pair of extra points tier upgrading are never superfluous! :)
 

Alukat123

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hire a high level tier upgrader to do the tier upgrading?
The effective costs get lower the higher the level of the person doing the tiering...
 

girtsn

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Heh two of my personal trolls here as expected one ever so confident of his superior iq and the other I suspect a lithuanian using words that his previous alter ego would not know in his mother's tongue to wrongly translate @ google translate in first place :D
maybe throw some dirt here and there to mask a low iq level.
Because most important thing in their lifes is sum of total skill and a pair of extra points tier upgrading are never superfluous! :)
 

Zayka

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First of all - Im never scam anyone in this game. Second - Girts, why persons who have opposite opinion than you automatically are trolls, scumbags, assholes and other rasist statements? I alrdy saw your threads like this, bout system must change, system change many time since then, but you still not happy. Do you realy think the problem in the system?! And yes, as i many times says - my english are terrible, sry guys...
 

LeelooM

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Tiering costs are insane and need adjusting, simple as that. Sure it's gonna hurt some, but I often see items selling for less than their tiering costs now due to deflation. I think most people realize that, in most circumstances, tiering costs are not going to be returned when they sell an item.
For weapons I agree on that, been speaking with Boo Who about his tiering up and I really think that is extreem, almost fell of my chair lol. Not to mention that if MA decides to bring out the same weapon but (L) ..... (look at some armors)

For finders it is ok, like for the F-106 it's around 1K (without MU) per level on the lvls 7-8-9-10, so cannot be compared to weapon tiering at all where we speak about 10-20k and more.....

What I see (for finders) is indeed that people sell tiered finders way to low, but mostly because they need ped fast ...and do not care if loosing peds

So for me tiering finders/price is ok BUT only if you gonna use it a lot and that is a huge different than tiering up a weapon with every tier costing that much + risk of deflation
 

Alukat123

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What I see (for finders) is indeed that people sell tiered finders way to low, but mostly because they need ped fast ...and do not care if loosing peds
that or eventually invest in getting the tier skill up...
F101 tier 1 costs are 5.99 TT , level 11.56 Tier upgrader, gets 14.16% of the materials back.
So, 5.99*(1-0,1416) = 5.1418
So the tiering costs are only about 5.14 PED , selling them for TT+6 or TT+6.5 would give more money than the tiering costs.
And now think about someone doing the same with level 25 tier upgrader, that's 24% of the materials back, i think:
5.99*(1-0,24) = 4.5524
So a level 25 tier upgrader selling for TT+6, even though that matches the TT value shown of tiering costs, is running profit at it...

the level determines the effective tiering costs, so there may be someone buying all kind of tier x.9 stuff just to get the tiering skill higher and the tiering costs lower, which would be another reason for tiered MU to get lower over time.
 

LeelooM

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that or eventually invest in getting the tier skill up...
F101 tier 1 costs are 5.99 TT , level 11.56 Tier upgrader, gets 14.16% of the materials back.
So, 5.99*(1-0,1416) = 5.1418
So the tiering costs are only about 5.14 PED , selling them for TT+6 or TT+6.5 would give more money than the tiering costs.
And now think about someone doing the same with level 25 tier upgrader, that's 24% of the materials back, i think:
5.99*(1-0,24) = 4.5524
So a level 25 tier upgrader selling for TT+6, even though that matches the TT value shown of tiering costs, is running profit at it...

the level determines the effective tiering costs, so there may be someone buying all kind of tier x.9 stuff just to get the tiering skill higher and the tiering costs lower, which would be another reason for tiered MU to get lower over time.
My higher tiers where done by Auktuma/McHammer .... you cant get any better in game lol
 

SirAzzah

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I definitely agree that the tiering system is unbalanced... Most extreme example being armor imo. Tier 3 supremacy is 2500 tt per piece or 17500 in total for a 5% increase. Comparatively the bc-120 top event gun costs 4300 tt for tier 3. If every high end armor set sits at tier .9 - 2.9 it’s not helping the game at all.
The newer guns are a bit extreme but worth it if they can grind profit and win events.
Arson FEN has 85% efficiency and 40% more dps than TEN so the tier costs should definitely be higher but maybe not 10x. I guess if it was that great they’d all be sold already. But not worth >20k imo
Faps I’d say are a bit overpriced for a 5% increase. Again if every fap sits at tier 0 it doesn’t benefit MA.
 

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Tier costs appear to be related to the cost to use the item.
Does this explain Rookie TerraMaster? ;)

There most likely is some formula because armors with identical stats (Viceroy/Viceroy Skullcandy, Pixie/Grunt/Grunt (C)) have identical tiering costs; and max tt doesn't seem to be part of that formula (it's different for Pixie/Grunt). But beyond that, I doubt anyone has figured it out.
 

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the tiercosts of the arsonistic iii TEN edition were lowered substantially after an thread here at pfc 5 years ago,ma admitted it handled the wrong formula,
maybe that is the case also for the new arsonistic iv FEn editions ?

i own 1 and id like to tier it,but the costs are just absurd,i would think ma would like for us to have more turnover thus lower the tiercosts,
anyway..maybe the owners have to sent some supportcases asking if these costs are because they used an wrong formula just like 5 years ago ?
 
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