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Question: UNeco fap = more skill gains?

JohnCapital

JohnCapital

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I hear many reports that the ultra eco faps (I.E. adj, imp, mod) have horrible skill gains. It makes sense, if skill gain is relational to TT use. (There is some debate about this)

But what happens on the other end of the spectrum? How good are the skill gains?

For example, does the 2500 Deluxe have disgustingly high skill gains? (would almost have to at 1.80 ped/use :eek:)

I know those are rare, but tests can also be done with 2350s. The speed demon is seriously uneco too.

At what point does less eco become a better option for those skilling heal? Is it better to stand at revives healing w/ a fap-15 or a T1?
 
i Dunno but when hunting i seem to get the same amount of skills per 500ped.... its just faster when using HL14 instead of p5a.

probably the same with faps... its tied to tt spent.
 
90% of nonsib faps are uneco when compared to sib, doesn't really make much difference if it's a 2350, 2900 or fap 80, they are all horrible eco.

Sib faps give 1.5%-2.5% of TT skill. The few tests I have done and seen with nonsib give skillgain 0.5-1% of TT spent
 
Immortal said:
90% of nonsib faps are uneco when compared to sib, doesn't really make much difference if it's a 2350, 2900 or fap 80, they are all horrible eco.

Sib faps give 1.5%-2.5% of TT skill. The few tests I have done and seen with nonsib give skillgain 0.5-1% of TT spent
Click to expand...

Have you got any data we could see to go with that? Would be really interesting to see.
 
I wouldn't say skill gains with 2500 Deluxe or 2900 are that great. I have both of these as well as a 2350 and I've spent enough time healing with the 2900 to get it to Tier 3. I have used the 2500 Deluxe to heal others during big events but not recently. I haven't noticed a huge increase in skill gains but I don't really keep close track.

If someone can suggest the best way to test this, I'd be willing to give it a try. I also use UR125, UR150 and SK-80 so maybe could compare to those. I have been running the tracker program so I have main chat logs for the last month or so.
 
i believe un-eco anything increases skill gains.

i have no proof.

but mining with bigger amps and hunting with unL weapons

i have noticed much more skill increases



just my 2pec :)
 
JSeven said:
If someone can suggest the best way to test this, I'd be willing to give it a try. I also use UR125, UR150 and SK-80 so maybe could compare to those.
Click to expand...

Easiest way would be to run ~30-50 ped TT value on each fap and record/compare skill gains. (do skill scans before/after each fap session.) Perhaps healing n00bs at sweat camp would be best. Easiest to stop at the right times. Would need to make sure TT spent on each fap is as close to even as possible, and enough to smooth out any anomalous bumps in skill gains.

If you could do this, JSeven, I'd be willing to bribe you with useless EFD. :D (and maybe something else)
 
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Also, anyone that has kept regular records of skill snapshots and FAP decay can extract the FA-only skills and compare them with FAP decay. This would be easier than trying to look at all skills gained due to overlaps. I believe i did that at some point for imp FAP and came to the same conclusion as OP refers to.
 
i noticed much more skill gains when i'm using the 2890 compared to the korss400
 
As jiff already said, you get more skillgains while mining with an amp so I would draw the conclusion that with more TT used per heal you get more skillgains :)

I'd still like to see the TT difference in unmaxed SIB faps, UL faps and maxed SIB faps.
 
MarieWoodell said:
Have you got any data we could see to go with that? Would be really interesting to see.
Click to expand...

Early data I collected in this thread
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/skills/114929-sib-healing-tools-experiment.html

A year ago I was getting 1.85-1.95% (861peds fap sample)

Last two months I got ~2.9% (1322peds fap sample)

All calculations based on Diag+FA+Medicine+Treatment (20.67peds TT gained in the latter case) and these skills accounting for 56% total gain (34.24TT)
 
CeePee said:
As jiff already said, you get more skillgains while mining with an amp so I would draw the conclusion that with more TT used per heal you get more skillgains :)

I'd still like to see the TT difference in unmaxed SIB faps, UL faps and maxed SIB faps.
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mining amps are SIB items. you need to meet minimum skill requirement to use them effectively
 
A friend of mine fapped about 35k ped decay on a imp fap and went from level 21-37 I believe.
 
Doer said:
Also, anyone that has kept regular records of skill snapshots and FAP decay can extract the FA-only skills and compare them with FAP decay. This would be easier than trying to look at all skills gained due to overlaps. I believe i did that at some point for imp FAP and came to the same conclusion as OP refers to.
Click to expand...

Did this for the last section of my log. It's missing a few intervals but should be ~99%:

In 4060 PEDs imp FAP decay, i gained
5.76 PEDs Diagnosis (/.08 = 72 PEDs tt Paramedic)
26.84 PEDs FA (/.37 = 72.5 PEDs tt Paramedic)

Pretty good approximation...

That gives about a 1.8% return of skills, slightly lower than Immortal's experience with FAPs and consistent with the idea that uber FAPs save PEDs but at cost of slightly slower skill.

Edit: Incidentally, this is one (possibly the only) case where i don't really care about a disadvantage in skillgain. Uber FAPs are almost unique items in game in being maxed at very low skills yet with unsurpassed power.
 
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So, basically, those that stand at the revive skilling with a T1 or fap-5 are simply wasting their time when they can get the same results faster with, say, a fap-50 or 80...

Or, is there some factor we are missing?
 
JohnCapital said:
So, basically, those that stand at the revive skilling with a T1 or fap-5 are simply wasting their time when they can get the same results faster with, say, a fap-50 or 80...

Or, is there some factor we are missing?
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I believe there's a per click and a per PED component to any action. This was verified in the case of the scanners, where the more eco scanners actually do give more skill gains per PED decay (but IIRC less per-click).

In the case of FAPs, i suspect there's a slight benefit to using a 5 over an 18 in terms of skills/PED due to the extra number of clicks, and in the case of the uber FAPs the huge difference in decay apparently undercompensates. I don't have any data to back that up though, just the circumstantial evidence from scanning and killing mobs (e.g. kill bonus effect).
 
Doer said:
I believe there's a per click and a per PED component to any action. This was verified in the case of the scanners, where the more eco scanners actually do give more skill gains per PED decay (but IIRC less per-click).
Click to expand...

If the per click is so important (and considering mod merc skilling, that may be), wouldn't that suggest that the 2350 (fastest but also almost one of the least eco fap) might be one of the best skilling faps?

(See where I'm trying to head with this thread?)
 
JohnCapital said:
If the per click is so important (and considering mod merc skilling, that may be), wouldn't that suggest that the 2350 (fastest but also almost one of the least eco fap) might be one of the best skilling faps?

(See where I'm trying to head with this thread?)
Click to expand...

Incase SIB doesn't give a hefty boost to skillgains, then according to that theory yeah.
 
JohnCapital said:
If the per click is so important (and considering mod merc skilling, that may be), wouldn't that suggest that the 2350 (fastest but also almost one of the least eco fap) might be one of the best skilling faps?

(See where I'm trying to head with this thread?)
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Yes, it's optimal for both components. I agree that finding out whether that proves to actually be the case is worthwhile. :popcorn: If it is not the skill monster expected, we have to consider the possibility that there's a specific factor attached to each that determines skillgain.

PS "Best" here should read "fastest". Some would prefer skills/PED over skills/minute.
 
Doer said:
PS "Best" here should read "fastest". Some would prefer skills/PED over skills/minute.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but I'm looking for the optimal mix of both skills/PED and skills/minute. The idea of standing with a T1 for 7 weeks scares me.

Note: During this research of skills/pec and speed, since (L) carries MU, I'm discounting them immediately from the list of skilling faps. Also, since UL-SIB would be (according to Immortal's info) the best skill/pec, they're a bit hard to get a hold of. So we'll go with regular faps for this discussion.

The problem with the 2350 is that it doesn't max until just before lvl 21 paramedic. Which brings up the question: Should it be used before that, or should a lower lvl maxed out fap be used? If so, then we can deduce a theoretical optimal fapping ladder if paramedic skilling is the main goal.
 
Interesting thread - subscribing :).
 
JohnCapital said:
The problem with the 2350 is that it doesn't max until just before lvl 21 paramedic. Which brings up the question: Should it be used before that, or should a lower lvl maxed out fap be used? If so, then we can deduce a theoretical optimal fapping ladder if paramedic skilling is the main goal.
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YES... YES... YES!!!

I bought a 2350 and started using it for emergency faps during battles as a new player. Eco be damned, I love this fap and still use it on a regular basis.

<For what it's worth, I'm level 10 paramedic and use a maxed Hedoc SK-20 when not "in battle">
 
Immortal said:
Would you care to define that?
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I'll try. If all faps give skills at the same rate to their proportional decay, then yes the 2350, 2500 Dlx and a few others suddenly become some of the best skilling faps around.

However, that's if they all skill at the same proportion, and if that proportion is the same whether the fap is maxed or not. If either or both of these are not true, then there becomes a more difficult skilling ladder.

For example, according to you, Immortal, the SIB faps skill higher TT/pec even when maxed. However they are usually less clicks/min.

So if one fap skills 10% faster but at a decay/skill rate that's 15% higher, then the slower fap is the better option.

Case in point:
  • Adapted Vivo T15 - 37.5 avg heal 24/min at 3.75 pec/use
  • FAP-80 - 32 heal 27/min at 6 pec/use

When both are maxed, do they offer more skills after ~40 ped of use? That can be used to determine skill/hour rate.

What about w/ user not maxed on them yet?
 
JohnCapital said:
When both are maxed, do they offer more skills after ~40 ped of use? That can be used to determine skill/hour rate.
Click to expand...

Your definition of optimal is skills/min regardless of eco
 
Have not tried SiB Faps that often and it was in really low level, maybe the first 3 months.
Could not say that I had the impression of skilling faster with them, only that the variance of heals was bigger.
Switched to a 2350 then and used it constantly for over a year. Did not feel like it was skilling faster, but the variance in the heals was not that big (almost allways full heals). Used it from level 8 until 19, when I switched to 2600.
Using that I made 4 levels in one year (which may be connected to better eco and higher evader, but still looks frightingly low)
Might not be very accurate but may give at least give a hint compared to someone who went the SiB way.
 
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