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**Unfreeze the skill progression** REVISITED

I'd let it die, just move on and adapt or get frustrated pissed off and anoyed
 
I don't like the change either, but has MA repealed any previous nerf? "old" crafting skills? Amps? Didn't their last bump in deposists coincide with the amp nerf? I know my personal deposit history increased...:rolleyes:

They do everything for a reason. This one just widened the gap between ubers and new players...and then the noob-uber hofs are pissing off the ubers ;)

From a business perspective, consider this:

-Making skilling harder will make it much harder for players to be able to get to a point where they can hunt more economically (i.e. greater dodge/evade, better min damage and to hit scores)

-Pissing off "ubers" to the point where they get frustated and sell out. If they cash-out, MA gets to skim fees for the money transfers. People will deposit to buy the skills and items of the ubers (more skimming). Less ubers mean less people able to hunt "economically".

It's actually a very nice business model...from one angle.

So many ways this can go...interesting. I'm sure there are other viewpoints...
 
I agree with everyone that the skill nerf sucks, but do you, the OP, really think that MA will change anything? They have already worked around the skill nerf, the out system changed so now noobs do not need to skill up to have a chance at hitting it big.

Plus, like the previous poster said, MA benefits from pissed off ppl who leave because it brings in more profits. The people who have a higher chance of success and can withdraw more often are ubers, even with the skill nerf an exo young will never droop an ATH, but a hogglo can, and to an uber who already has the skills that money is pretty useless in game, he or she might invest it into some business, but the likelihood of that is low. The money from that hof will probably be withdrawn which hurts MA, because they lose money on which they can get interest.

Also, for a luck based game, and this is the only thing that matters in this game, the longer a person stays to play the higher are the chances of them breaking even or profiting, which hurts MA. They would prefer ubers to go and have short term players, who after pissing they money off would leave.
 
kygon said:
I'd let it die, just move on and adapt or get frustrated pissed off and anoyed
Click to expand...

I agree I'm afraid - although I do think there are things that have to be addressed. For example coloring in Black is now never going to be possible for anyone other than Sarah, is that really what MA want? I'm sure there are other examples, but ultimately I really don't think MA will change it to allow people to skill up to 10K + like before. They have changed how loot is distributed in hunting and they may change the requirements for unlocking colors in the future, but other than that - it's just how things are now.

We have to do as Kygon says as far I think.
 
Vince Vaughn said:
If we all took that view nothing would change.
This issue is integral to EU, so we shouldn't move on from it.
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brick wall and bashing heads comes to mind, u can get angry all you want MA will not change it back, I agree it could do with some tweaking but

EU isnt a game now, PE WAS a game regarless of how MA tried to sell it, sadly its quite hard to 'play' EU like we 'played' PE just cant be done... same old thing.... adapt or die after a long period of hating EU
 
Tor said:
I agree with everyone that the skill nerf sucks, but do you, the OP, really think that MA will change anything? .
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Judging by their previous actions, no, but its worth a shot.

Tor said:
Plus, like the previous poster said, MA benefits from pissed off ppl who leave because it brings in more profits.
Click to expand...

Disagree completely, pissed off players = bad publicity = fewer deposits.

Tor said:
The people who have a higher chance of success and can withdraw more often are ubers, even with the skill nerf an exo young will never droop an ATH, but a hogglo can, and to an uber who already has the skills that money is pretty useless in game, he or she might invest it into some business, but the likelihood of that is low. The money from that hof will probably be withdrawn which hurts MA, because they lose money on which they can get interest.
Click to expand...

You are assuming here that these ubers are profiting constantly enough to take money out of the game on a regular basis. I'm sure this is true for a minority of cases but definitely not the majority.

Tor said:
Also, for a luck based game, and this is the only thing that matters in this game, the longer a person stays to play the higher are the chances of them breaking even or profiting, which hurts MA. They would prefer ubers to go and have short term players, who after pissing they money off would leave.
Click to expand...


Disagree again, they would prefer long-term depositing players... the more people play and enjoy, the more they get others to play... the more deposits they get, you are honestly telling me MA prefer a few short term players? :bs:
 
I dont think MA will ever change the the skill curve as it is unless to make it harder.

I dont know of many other games where if you can control yourself enough to get to an auction terminal within minutes you can be the most skilled player in the game.

As it is now you can buy your way to the top with skill chips and lets face it we are all a little impatient to progress at times so if you had the means you may consider it(and i know thats not everyones view but if you have a huge disposable income to spend soley on entertainment you may not see it as such bad thing)hence bringing large deposits of new cash into Entropia and MA which is where the true value is.

Lets face it MA`s only income is not from decay.

What do you think the cash you deposited is doing?

It`s not sitting in Marco`s checking acct getting 2% pa.

The only way i see this changing is when the Auto-clickers get to the point of crashing the skills market and it`s possible.
More and more the cheats will work out that all they need is to build a macro for one skill and just keep chipping it out for other skills and if they multiply this with dodgy accts it can be done quickly.
How it get`s dealt with then is anyone`s guess.


I`m not saying this is good but i can see why MA has done it so plus I may be way off the mark anyway and having said all that it would be nice to think i could get to where the top players are now in around 2 years not 10 or never.
 
jod said:
I dont think MA will ever change the the skill curve as it is unless to make it harder.
Click to expand...

yup and u know we may even in 5 vus time look back at gains today and think of the 'good old days' sad to think about but very much possible.

so i say skill as much as you can as you never know when the next nerf is coming!
 
Vince Vaughn said:
Disagree completely, pissed off players = bad publicity = fewer deposits.
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There have always been pissed-off players...but what bad publicity? So often pissed-off, disgruntled players are dismissed as whiners:

"If you don't like it, don't play."

"CYA!"

"BUH-Bye"

But the deposits still come...and I think the last report showed a bump in deposits. Now...some of that may be due to people trying to hang-on after the amp-nerf, or depsits to buy LA's, Malls, or pawn...er...Bank licenses...


Vince Vaughn said:
You are assuming here that these ubers are profiting constantly enough to take money out of the game on a regular basis. I'm sure this is true for a minority of cases but definitely not the majority.
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Not profiting hand-over-fist, per se, though MA's PR *cough* and some players boasting would give one the impression they are. The articles about Neverdie et al don't help. In my book, those who actually *are* turning profits would not be blabbing about it unless they like to show off...(no "dis" against Neverdie...I think what he is doing is great and I like the way he manages CND)

Anyway, I see a lot of naked ubers hunting things that I can't even solo. While they may not be making HUGE profits, they can hunt more economically.





Vince Vaughn said:
Disagree again, they would prefer long-term depositing players... the more people play and enjoy, the more they get others to play... the more deposits they get, you are honestly telling me MA prefer a few short term players? :bs:
Click to expand...

They want both! Short-term, long term..whatever...as long as they deposit. From a business standpoint, they *want* them depositing. What they *DO NOT WANT* is non-depositors and withdrawers. Too much eco, too much profit cuts down on deposits and increases withdrawls. ATM Card failed? hmmm...bad bank? Hmmmm...or..too easy to withdraw funds? Those funds had to come from someplace...and those funds would likley be in a bank gaining interest. And if they were NOT in bank gaining interest, any service offering an ATM service would get tired of not having funds transferred quickly to cover withdrawls.

The RCE is a selling point of the game...but they don't really want to pay out. Hell no. They want the money to churn and churn and change hands and pass through the repair terminals. Drip-drip-drip. You think casinos like playing out big jackpots aside from the PR and new people it brings?

And I'm fine with that. I deposit as much into this game as the fun it gives me is worth. There is a point where the "fun" line and the "worth it" line intersect, and when I reach that point, I stop depositing. I used to not have to deposit before the amp nerf, but now I have to to play. The game is worth $20-40 USD a month to play...for now....
 
Ok, let's get back to the original point.. has anyone had a response from MA on this issue and would they care to share it?

Surely some people submitted support cases..
 
Hmmm, I'm not sure the hunting related skill progressions are going to change back to be honest. For myself this is a shame, I'm unlikely to ever unlock high-end things like Kill Strike. I do however see why they did it to some extent, having a large proportion of the player base with approaching 10 HA on non-SIB would rather devalue the skills too. I'd like to think there's a better solution than just making it practically impossible for everyone not already nearly there to ever get there though, but at the same time the new introduction of a variety of decent dmg/sec and decent economy L weps has brought in more options for mid-skilled players so I'm not tooo upset by it all - I'm just a little less skill focussed than I used to be now.

However, I completely agree that the situations like only one player being able to colour black (and white and red?) isn't right and needs addressing. Getting the paints in the first place is challenging enough, and then one avatar gets a complete monopoly on colouring them for you? Doesn't seem quite right that one...

Apologies for the ramble Vince, started typing before your last post ;)
 
Vince Vaughn said:
Ok, let's get back to the original point.. has anyone had a response from MA on this issue and would they care to share it?

Surely some people submitted support cases..
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Agreed. While I do not think they will do anything, I'll help by submitting a case.

Jimmy B said:
Apologies for the ramble Vince, started typing before your last post ;)
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Ramble? You call that a ramble? Amatuer...;)
 
the answer i got:

29 Jan 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,
Thank you for reporting and for sharing your thoughts on this matter with us. We understand your concerns and have forwarded your feedback to the development team. Considering the diversity of our customer base it is difficult - if not impossible - to please all participants at all times. The recent changes in the skill system which adjusted the skill increase rate at higher levels were needed to secure the balance within the virtual universe. Such adjustments are in line with the EULA, §12 and §15.

Regards,
Entropia Support


i guess i didn´t expect anything else than this answer - if they believe they are doing right, there is no reason to make corrections of the changes - at least i felt better after complaining
 
Waldi said:
29 Jan 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,
Thank you for reporting and for sharing your thoughts on this matter with us. We understand your concerns and have forwarded your feedback to the development team. Considering the diversity of our customer base it is difficult - if not impossible - to please all participants at all times. The recent changes in the skill system which adjusted the skill increase rate at higher levels were needed to secure the balance within the virtual universe. Such adjustments are in line with the EULA, §12 and §15.

Regards,
Entropia Support


i guess i didn´t expect anything else than this answer - if they believe they are doing right, there is no reason to make corrections of the changes - at least i felt better after complaining
Click to expand...


Well seems they had to 'please' those 10 ubers with maxed weapons and scr3w the rest of us by making it twice as hard to skill up. 10K skills could fit into a 1250 ped esi before the nerf, now it's over 2500 ped esi. And making them twice as rich in skills is also a very nice gesture. Well you can't please everone, nice balancing act tho :rolleyes:
 
12 Jan 2007 You wrote:
Hello

This is in regards to the change to the way skills are gained in the last VU. I had composed a rather long message here before but it was lost when i was logged out, so i will refer you to this thread:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51209
for a sample of just how discouraged this change has made people -- essentially stopping many from serious play because they feel their goals are no longer attainable.

I have summarized the issue in this thread;
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51319
Please consider the situation and the compromise i describe to slowdown the skillgains by a factor of two from 2k skills and up instead of making it impossibly slow above 5k and take action to revitalize enthusiasm of the players.

As a final note, it has been commented that the regular changing of the skill gains by MA lead to volatilty and distrust by the player base. Perhaps after adjusting the skills one last time to a situation more acceptable you can make a statement of intent to not make any more changes to the system, thereby instilling more confidence and trust.

Thank you for your time and your increased interest in the opinion of the community; i hope this will become a triumph of MA reaching a mutually acceptable arrangement after listening to their customers.

cheers


25 Jan 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,

Thank you for your feedback, it is greatly appreciated, however as you surely understand , we can not comment on your report. But we will indeed forward it to the Dev team.

Regards,
Entropia Support
Click to expand...

15 Jan 2007 You wrote:
This is somewhat related to the previous case. One of the inadequecies of the present skill system is that it does not award hunting skills according to the difficulty of the mob being killed. Because of this, it is many times faster for me to get skills shooting tiny tantillions than it is shooting atrox prowlers. I understand that this is due to the "kill bonus" that can give a little package of skillgains after a mob dies, and it is a nice thing; however, there needs to be more of a bonus for shooting mobs with a higher dmg and hp than smaller mobs -- a clear difference.

Please pass this on for consideration by the design team, and a reminder to reconsider the manner of changes to the skill system in the last VU. A linear increase in skill volume (slowing down everyone the same amount) would be acceptable because everyone would still be able to progress. The huge exponential decrease at high levels that was implemented is discouraging many extreme participants and would-be extreme participants and causing them to reduce their participation. I suspect these same players provide a large portion of your revenues.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51319

It would be much more motivational to add high-level SIB items that raise the bar without removing the possibility of new players ever reaching that point without simply buying a fortune's worth of skills. Please reconsider the way you adjust the skill system, and consider making the changes final and stating that so as to restore some trust and hope in those that have set long-term goals that they will be able to reach them without everything being changed on them as they go.
27 Jan 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,

Thank you for your feedback, it is greatly appreciated , we will forward this to the design team.

if you have any further questions or inquires in the future, do not hesitate to get back to us.

Regards,
Entropia Support
Click to expand...

I'm actually amazed they gave you more than the cut-n-paste i got. Both the cases have now been marked closed; before they were still "In Progress".

To answer someone: yes, they did partially roll back the skill nerf earlier in the year after complaints from the community.

I did a bit more careful thinking about the specifics of how MA could have made the 8.8 skill nerf more tolerable, even if they felt it had to be nerfed one way or another:

Doer said:
Mr Trayles said:
Curious, exactly what would you have changed?
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I would have the skill nerf (VU 8.8) redone in the following way:
at 1900 there is a sharp slowdown until 2000 that puts skills at 1.25x the tt for 2k than they were before VU 8.8. After that the progression stays that way -- 1.25x the previous tt for the respective level. After one graduates, it is consistently 1.25x harder to progress than it was before the VU, all the way to 10k and beyond. (The way it works now since VU 8.8 is that after 5k skills it gets progressively slower compared to before. By 6k it's already 150% over what it was before, and still increasing.)

Remove the pro standing cap (if there is one -- i sure wouldn't know) and release SIB weapons right away that require level 100 and higher to reach SIB (ie to use at all efficiently)--high-power weapons.

--snip out bit about the follow-up nerf of small mob loot--
Click to expand...
 
Frigid said:
I don't like the change either, but has MA repealed any previous nerf? "old" crafting skills? Amps? Didn't their last bump in deposists coincide with the amp nerf? I know my personal deposit history increased...:rolleyes:

They do everything for a reason. This one just widened the gap between ubers and new players...and then the noob-uber hofs are pissing off the ubers ;)

From a business perspective, consider this:

-Making skilling harder will make it much harder for players to be able to get to a point where they can hunt more economically (i.e. greater dodge/evade, better min damage and to hit scores)

-Pissing off "ubers" to the point where they get frustated and sell out. If they cash-out, MA gets to skim fees for the money transfers. People will deposit to buy the skills and items of the ubers (more skimming). Less ubers mean less people able to hunt "economically".

It's actually a very nice business model...from one angle.

So many ways this can go...interesting. I'm sure there are other viewpoints...
Click to expand...


actually if ubers choose to sell out, ma is stabbing itself in the back... skill nerf means skills worth more... means more cash getting out of ma...
 
Richard Devil said:
actually if ubers choose to sell out, ma is stabbing itself in the back... skill nerf means skills worth more... means more cash getting out of ma...
Click to expand...

Its replaced by the people depositing to buy the skills so its sort of a null transaction although 10% of the skills are lost in transition. One thing for certain is there is usually a buyer for something someone is selling if the price is right.

For my own personal reasons I wouldnt mind seeing them switch the skill system back and put Killstrike back within reasonable reach but since I started PE/EU I have seen them tweek the skill system but never quite get it back to how it was before they made changes.

Infortunately everytime I submit a support case about something of this nature I get the "we forwarded it on to the dev team" response.
 
Sirhc said:
Infortunately everytime I submit a support case about something of this nature I get the "we forwarded it on to the dev team" response.
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That's supportese for

cat > /dev/null

At least that's my theory. Never had any reason to believe otherwise...
 
Well, for a noob like me it´s very hard that I can never get 10k skills (especially those hidden ones). I didn´t play for month (or even a year or more?). Now I came back, deposit for a month and read this! :(
So that means I can never be as good as others are; they will forever profit from me. I can never fight those who joined this Universe long ago. I can never mine as efficient as those old ones...
OMG, this makes everything so senseless... I can really say that I am sad because I started to enjoy this Universe. But it´s not very motivating to be a noob forever...
 
Richard Devil said:
actually if ubers choose to sell out, ma is stabbing itself in the back... skill nerf means skills worth more... means more cash getting out of ma...
Click to expand...

Hmmm...not really. MA isn't paying for the skills. If we were selling skills to the terminals, perhaps. If MA made dung worth 1K each it would still be the players paying for it.

If the uber skills are worth more..even better! More n00bs depositing to buy more skills. MA just increased the supply and the demand is still there.

The repair terminal (and a few other things I can speculate on) are MA's bread and butter. The more one skills, the less relative repairs they will need..be it guns or armor, amps or faps.

I'm still not sure where the (L) decay goes..or if this is paid up-front or as it it used. Consider a mining amp...a big one...huge decay...decay that is not repaired. is that decay considered "repair" potential? I doubt it goes back to the loot pool/. With the prevalaenceof (L) iets, now, I *seriously* doubt (L) itm decay goes into their respective pools. Now back to the mining amp...I am assuming we pay MA the high decay to gte bigger fidn from the moning loot-pool...a loot-pool which is fed by players.

If MA wishes to set the record staright on where (L) decay goes, I'm all ears...;)
 
GullyFoyle said:
OMG, this makes everything so senseless... I can really say that I am sad because I started to enjoy this Universe. But it´s not very motivating to be a noob forever...
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I feel your pain...but it is a pain common to ALL games.If you are not the first or play constantly, or pay tons in the case of RCE's, you will always be way-way behind the cutting edge. I have learned to accept my lot.

Just learn to be happy and have fun *within* your means and level and don't look at what others have or compare yourselves to them. Be your own standard!

It's like peeing in the men's room...eyes forward! ;)
 
IMO
they are NOT done yet
a few VU from now after the dust settles on this nerf
they will do a little tweaking here and a little tweaking there
sit back and watch the communitys reaction,,,and do some more tweaking
 
Frigid said:
I feel your pain...but it is a pain common to ALL games.If you are not the first or play constantly, ....
Click to expand...

Not true. In the other big 2 dragon slayer type MMOs, if you play for about 2 months you can be at max level and be on par with those that have played 2+ years. They may have some better items than you, but overall you will be equal.

MA has changed the skill system so much and so many times that new players will never achieve the level (or even be near) to those that have played for 3+ years.

In years gone by, you could skill up using the cheapest possible weapon. A Jester D1 would give you rifle skill regardless of what your current skill level was. There were times when one player would use an autoclicker in the ring while 10 or 15 people surrounded him and use autoclickers to skill handgun using a Mann MPH and rifle with a D1. These days are gone for new players.

In the past, you could stand and fap to skill evade or dodge. Now mobs stop attacking and giving skills when they are in a 'stuck' condition.

Health has been nerfed. There are avatars around with +300 HP. A new player today will never get close to that.

The real issue is that MA made these changes because people were abusing the system at some level. Rather than nerfing THOSE players, MA nerfed the system.
 
I didn't even bother to read most of the thread cos it annoyed me too much.

Boo-hoo to all the people that have already got the skills that the others can no longer achieve in the small time period that they did. Boo-hoo for the one's that take exactly the same nerf as everyone else in the game and as such suffer absoloutly no detremintal effect whatsoever other than there own bloody self ego not being inflated to the status that they want it to reach because they feel they were here first or some other self-made-up entricity.

Story is those that pay get there faster, we've all seen that and all know it's true. Don't cry about the nerfs as if it's suddenly horrible for you - because it effects everyone exactly the same and because of that it actually has no defining diveders of any sort..

This post was made at a drunk 4:25am....if u have a problem with it....see the avatar.
 
thoreau said:
Not true. In the other big 2 dragon slayer type MMOs, if you play for about 2 months you can be at max level and be on par with those that have played 2+ years. They may have some better items than you, but overall you will be equal.
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Mmmmm....not totally true. In *one* of those games, and perhaps the most popular one, even slight improvements can spell the difference between success and failure in the hands of skilled players. In that games 2 months of intense grinding may get you to the top *level*, sure, but getting the collection of items and sets of items requires doing dungeons and raids over...and over...and over. The items cannot be bought...

In PE, you can't cram all that experience in very quickly, unless you spend $$$ in chipping and buying uber gear instead of waiting to loot it.

thoreau said:
The real issue is that MA made these changes because people were abusing the system at some level. Rather than nerfing THOSE players, MA nerfed the system.
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Right! It's like a long time ago when the the mexican economy crashed. All, off the wealthy mexicans who saw it coming had their money in USD...the rest of the Pesos got NERFED! Nobody should be immune to nerfs and everyone should be changed to meet the new standards.
 
Doer said:
That's supportese for

cat > /dev/null

At least that's my theory. Never had any reason to believe otherwise...
Click to expand...

I always get this mental image with the "forwarded to dev team" reply: ;)



 
GullyFoyle said:
Well, for a noob like me it´s very hard that I can never get 10k skills (especially those hidden ones). I didn´t play for month (or even a year or more?). Now I came back, deposit for a month and read this! :(
So that means I can never be as good as others are; they will forever profit from me. I can never fight those who joined this Universe long ago. I can never mine as efficient as those old ones...
OMG, this makes everything so senseless... I can really say that I am sad because I started to enjoy this Universe. But it´s not very motivating to be a noob forever...
Click to expand...

I can tell you that rifle around 5k becomes fairly dreadful, but as far as efficiency goes...(L) ? The sad thing is with the way skill nerfing has gone, it makes it a totally viable option to chip all offensive skills out except the ones needed to keep your favorite (L) gun at 10/10.
 
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