Universal Basic Income

GxB

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It's a prediction, not a threat.
and ill predict you that nothing like that is going to happen. and ill predict you something else: if for example germany would ever implement a ubi then thats the day it is inevitably going to die. guess how fast everyone from not as wealthy countries from the EU will move to germany to get more money for nothing then what two people would get for their job in their homecountries. and then those countries die cos nobody is left. thats when the riots start.
 

Naverith

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Now you've changed the topic to "Democracy". Few countries are a Democracy. America is not. It is a Constitutional Republic.

Democracy is mob rule. The strongest rule everyone else. All (so called) "Democracies" are nothing more than an elite ruling their subjects.

Let's stick to UBI stuff.
 

Darth Revan

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so... you dont like the job you have but you dont do the job u want. who is hindering you on doing the job you want to do? its only your own fear.
I actually do like my job thanks, sure some days are sh*t, but that would be the same with any job. Majority of people do not enjoy their job however, and i see this day in and out. Also there are lots of things hindering people, money is one of those. Being unable to afford basic needs doesn't mean you can just go out and get a job you love....thats like telling the person begging on the street to "get a haircut and get a real job".

If it was that easy, many would.
 

trance

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Democracy is mob rule. The strongest rule everyone else. All (so called) "Democracies" are nothing more than an elite ruling their subjects.
I see, you forgot Switzerland. We have a well runing direct democracie with not only 2 rich parties. This means there are a lot ppl not from the elite front. We have the possibility to direct vote our leaders (except the 7 "ministers" but those get votet from the leaders, the normal ppl voted for.). There are also a lot of social democrats and parties here, and our economy is one of the stabelst worldwith since ages. We have healty for everyone, not only rich ppl. noone need here to sleep on the street, or begg for money to survive on the street, except they want have that this way.
No, democracie is not a mob rule, it is a polit discusion where everyone is implemented. But sadly, there are a lot countries around, and think they are demcracie, but they are noting more as a 1 person(or partie) dictate.
No need to call the names here, to solve hate. :)
 

GxB

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I actually do like my job thanks, sure some days are sh*t, but that would be the same with any job. Majority of people do not enjoy their job however, and i see this day in and out. Also there are lots of things hindering people, money is one of those. Being unable to afford basic needs doesn't mean you can just go out and get a job you love....thats like telling the person begging on the street to "get a haircut and get a real job".

If it was that easy, many would.
funny that you talk about that as i got first person experience on that matter.

a few years back i got huge family problems so i decided to leave everything from one day to another. i was in my early 20s and packed my stuff and just left. i bought a train ticket to a town 400km away from anyone i know.
i had about 40 bucks in my pocket, no work, no place to stay. homeless.
i didnt know anything about the town or about being homeless but at least im not an idiot or lazy so i just got out of my comfort zone and did what i needed to. it took me 8 fucking days of living in a homeless shelter before i had a job and a place to stay. it wasnt nearly as hard as i imagined it. theres enough help out there to get you started again. and its a good feeling when you get it done.
but most people dont go out of their comfort zone. they dont go to public offices to inform themselves. they are lazy fucks who stay the way it is because its easier than trying something new.

people who really want to get off the streets can easily do it. especially nowadays with social media and internet. its easier than ever. just get your fucking ass up.

and the UBI will just make life worse for everyone with increased prices. people will have less buying power than before after 12 to 24 months. thats basically guaranteed.
 

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Impossible, there will always be someone who chooses not to work.
If anyone chooses not to work, then wages are too low. If there were too few workers, wages would rise to a level at which those previously choosing not to work would instead choose to work.
 

Naverith

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When one has a crutch to lean on - they will. That is human nature.

I grew up poor. Real poor. Most people today have no clue what "poor" really is. They think it's when you only have a flip phone.

When I was young, society had a crutch - it was other people who could, and would, help. Churches were the usual source. Sometimes, neighbors. We went hungry many times, and usually only ate two meals a day. I got one new pair of pants and one pair of shoes, yearly. My coats all came from a church.

My first job was delivering telegrams for Western Union. I rode over 100 miles A DAY on my bike.

Was that my "dream job". HELL NO! But it WAS a job. I did many jobs I didn't like, but your "liking" a job has shit to do with making a living. You just have to start somewhere. Then, as you gain knowledge, training and experience, you improve your lot by getting a better job. Eventually, unless you're just another drone, you'll decide on a career you might like and shoot for that.

People now days have such an entitlement attitude that I have actually heard a hungry man say "that job is below me" when I said McDonalds is hiring.

This Socialist attitude of "I'm entitled" is pure, and disgusting, bullshit.

And YES - get off your butt, get a haircut and GET A JOB. Any idiot can do it.

And at the same time you do that, you'll also get your independence, your freedom, your self respect and your pride back.

As I said before, and has been proven world wide, a UBI is just another nail in the coffin for mankind. At least for now.

Maybe, in the future, when we all develop proper individual and sociatal morals, the UBI could work.
 

trance

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If anyone chooses not to work, then wages are too low. If there were too few workers, wages would rise to a level at which those previously choosing not to work would instead choose to work.
Exactly the problem! 1% own everything, and 99% work for the 1%.
 

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Does communism by any other name smell as sweet?
 

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people who really want to get off the streets can easily do it. especially nowadays with social media and internet. its easier than ever. just get your fucking ass up.
There are an estimated 192 million people unemployed and estimated 100 million people that are homeless worldwide, yeah their problem is that they don't get off their lazy asses. If you did have that experience, you think you would be a more understanding person as to the plight of others in similar situations or worse than what your situation ever was.

Instead your one of those people that makes life harder for others and say its only them to blame for their misfortune. Its like telling someone who has depression to just snap out of it, or hardened up, like they used to say before it was diagnosed as a mental illness. Most likely one of those people that makes other peoples job, the bad days as well.

Again i need to repeat, that im not saying UBI is the answer or should go ahead, but there is something that can be taken from it and modified to be able to help those whose need it. UBI is not intended for people to just do nothing and collect money, its there to offer everyone the ability to have those things that are essential to living...shelter, food, medical, dental, etc.The idea behind it is good, how it can be implemented to help society is the issue, and not enough testing has gone into that or other ways. But governments also don't allow enough studies to happen and/or for long enough time periods.

If the government had offered you UBI when you were homeless for that short amount of time, i'm pretty sure you would have been delighted and thankful....unfortunately it now seems like you stick your nose up at others.
Great example of humanity we have here.
 

Naverith

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Typical Socialist: condemn anyone with an alternative viewpoint.

Why bring in your made-up stats? Reality is simple. Those who have the willingness can make money. At the age of 6 yrs old, I was going door to door selling ear-rings my Mother made (from sea shells) for .25 cents a pair.

The main problem with too many people, is that they've been indoctrinated to believe the following:

1) You're a victim.
The white guy is holding you down - the business owner hates you - the government owes you a living because yes, you are to lazy to work - your neighbor MUST be a crook because he's successful and you aren't - ALL rich people got rich crushing people like you on their way up - you're black - you're brown - you're red - you're woman - you suffer from mental problems, just pick a "victim" category.

2) You're too ignorant.
School "failed" you - you weren't taught how to add, multiply, subtract, read, write, etc - the government won't pay for your college (in spite of the fact you can't read or write) - you've been told, so many times, that your problems are because you just aren't smart enough.

3) No one ever "gave you a break".
You got caught cheating on a school test and punished, but that wasn't your fault - you lost a baseball game so you punched the other team's catcher, but it was his fault for diss'n you - it wasn't your fault you got thrown out of school just because you hit the teacher - she was diss'n you - you can't keep a job, 'cause "bosses are just stupid" - you still live in your Mother's basement because no one will give you a break.

A "hand-up" is NOT a "hand-out". Helping someone in need is expected by humanity. Giving someone a permanent hand-out (UBI) is not "help". It's nothing less than degrading a person into nothing more than a paid-voter.

And yes, if you want to succeed in life, GET OFF YOUR ASS. You are the Captain of your future. Too many people have fallen prey to the BS of those who would control you. You are way more powerful than you have been led to believe.

And that's what scares "them". And that's why they push Socialism onto you - they fear what you can do if you take the red pill.
 

Admiral

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Nice to see thread active , please be nice and respect others :wise:
 

GxB

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There are an estimated 192 million people unemployed and estimated 100 million people that are homeless worldwide, yeah their problem is that they don't get off their lazy asses. If you did have that experience, you think you would be a more understanding person as to the plight of others in similar situations or worse than what your situation ever was.

Instead your one of those people that makes life harder for others and say its only them to blame for their misfortune. Its like telling someone who has depression to just snap out of it, or hardened up, like they used to say before it was diagnosed as a mental illness. Most likely one of those people that makes other peoples job, the bad days as well.

Again i need to repeat, that im not saying UBI is the answer or should go ahead, but there is something that can be taken from it and modified to be able to help those whose need it. UBI is not intended for people to just do nothing and collect money, its there to offer everyone the ability to have those things that are essential to living...shelter, food, medical, dental, etc.The idea behind it is good, how it can be implemented to help society is the issue, and not enough testing has gone into that or other ways. But governments also don't allow enough studies to happen and/or for long enough time periods.

If the government had offered you UBI when you were homeless for that short amount of time, i'm pretty sure you would have been delighted and thankful....unfortunately it now seems like you stick your nose up at others.
Great example of humanity we have here.
and how many jobs are there worldwide that are free at the moment? and to be honest, the typical homeless is a lazy, drinking idiot. that doesnt mean all are, but ive seen enough to say that many are. im not drinking alcohol, im not smoking and im not taking any drugs. and ive gotten back up on my feet in a very short timespan. if the first thing i wouldve done is buy some booze with the last money i have i wouldnt have been able to do it. and thats where a big part of the problem lies. and its not only about getting a job. id say that (at least in europe and japan) 99% of the homeless dont need to be homeless as the state has enough safety nets in place to prevent it. most of the homeless people though dont even want to go to the public office to get information on how to better their situation. ive seen it myself in person and in countless interviews that prove this.
and ive seen many, many homeless go to the supermarket to buy beer with their last money.
 

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There are an estimated 192 million people unemployed and estimated 100 million people that are homeless worldwide, yeah their problem is that they don't get off their lazy asses. If you did have that experience, you think you would be a more understanding person as to the plight of others in similar situations or worse than what your situation ever was.

Instead your one of those people that makes life harder for others and say its only them to blame for their misfortune. Its like telling someone who has depression to just snap out of it, or hardened up, like they used to say before it was diagnosed as a mental illness. Most likely one of those people that makes other peoples job, the bad days as well.

Again i need to repeat, that im not saying UBI is the answer or should go ahead, but there is something that can be taken from it and modified to be able to help those whose need it. UBI is not intended for people to just do nothing and collect money, its there to offer everyone the ability to have those things that are essential to living...shelter, food, medical, dental, etc.The idea behind it is good, how it can be implemented to help society is the issue, and not enough testing has gone into that or other ways. But governments also don't allow enough studies to happen and/or for long enough time periods.

If the government had offered you UBI when you were homeless for that short amount of time, i'm pretty sure you would have been delighted and thankful....unfortunately it now seems like you stick your nose up at others.
Great example of humanity we have here.
What you're proposing already exists. It's called welfare.
Welfare is a safety net, and that's a good thing.
UBI is just free money to make people lazy.

Don't mix up UBI with welfare.
The only discussion should be how to build the best welfare system and not how to build a UBI system to give away free money for nothing.


what I would like to know:
Why would we want or need a UBI anayways?
What would be the purpose of it?
 
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GxB

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What you're proposing already exists. It's called welfare.
Welfare is a safety net, and that's a good thing.
UBI is just free money to make people lazy.

Don't mix up UBI with welfare.
The only discussion should be how to build the best welfare system and not how to build a UBI system to give away free money for nothing.


what I would like to know:
Why would we want or need a UBI anayways?
What would be the purpose of it?
they want a ubi so everyone can do what they want no matter how good they are at it, or if it is useful in any kind of way. but the problem is people who want a ubi dont see how it will turn out. and it wont work. it never worked and it will never work. because it simply cant work by definition. communism works as long as they got enough money from others to give away. as soon as that stops the system falls apart.
 

trance

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Comunism is failed. but...
Capitalism will fail, too, because there is no infinite growth!

So why we dont create some thing new, where not 1% own everything. This dont means, that UBI is the solution, but it could be the start point for a new, more fair way. Ubi would need to learn a lot things into the shool, so ppl are inspired to not be lazy. And then, if you do more as been lazy, you will always get more! So im sure, a lazy UBI person just cant afort a car, nor a luxury estimate or other things. So there will be always inspiration to do more, as just been lazy and life relativly poor.
The UBI or some thing other system, only alow that you can eat, get a doctor and medicine, get able to visite shools and buy cloths and what ever you basicaly need for a human life. But even basicaly. If you wish more, you need to do also more, so been lazy, will not be rewarted!

The real problem we have, all around the world, is that realy only 1% own everything. Only this causing a lot of the problems we have. The more poor ppl we have, the bigger the problems get! We realy need to find new ways, before all the poorness all around start a new big war or revolution and also terrorism.
 

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https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/

Yes, this is political and shouldn't be here, but since it is above page gives quite a bit more historical info and reasons why UBI is an interesting idea than most other sources I've seen online... as well as several examples where it actually worked or is working now.
 

GxB

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https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/

Yes, this is political and shouldn't be here, but since it is above page gives quite a bit more historical info and reasons why UBI is an interesting idea than most other sources I've seen online... as well as several examples where it actually worked or is working now.
show me one test where it worked on something bigger than a small city with an already good living standard.
and all that aside, even if it would work (which it doesnt) it doesnt matter. if you give everyone 1000 bucks more people would outbid themselves on things like apartment prices, rent, food, ebay shit and so on. just watch the auction house in EU and you see where this is going. communism does sound nice on paper but it doesnt work.
 

GxB

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and on another note: all of these things want to implement a UBI instead of the standard welfare program. doesnt that bsically mean that everyone who already received welfare now gets +- the same amount due to welfare cancel and new ubi while people who didnt get welfare now get the ubi on top. so it widens the inequality gap and makes the rich even richer while the poor stay poor? if u dont pay it on top of everything thats already pay out means its not equal for everyone. and if u keep paying the welfare u paid before means u lose the advantage of the "lower" welfare cost which means u cant even pay for it.
that yang guy writes so much bullshit... it aint even funny. good thing he has no chance in the 2020 election.
 

jetsina

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just watch the auction house in EU and you see where this is going.
You are worried about higher prices, and this is a good point where supply and demand are imbalanced in favour of the suppliers of essentials. Rents are already at critical levels in many places: critical in that people with normal run-of-the-mill jobs in a city can no longer afford to rent living space there. We already need to address this, yes, and while an UBI isn't helpful for this particular point in the long run if parallel action is not taken, an UBI would not be the cause of the problem as such. An UBI won't solve all issues on its own.

For other suppliers, competition does mean that if you price your product to get bigger profits, others will undercut you and the demand will shift towards those. In EU auction house, I tend to believe undercutting is more than it is in the real world even, so what are you trying to say by pointing to the EU auction? MUs are lower than they 'should' be, aren't they?

edit:
new ubi ... people who didnt get welfare now get the ubi on top. so it widens the inequality gap and makes the rich even richer while the poor stay poor?
This is another good point in relation to relative positions. However, the rich will usually end up paying several or many many ubis depending on how ubis are financed, and end up being less rich directly. Whether they can leverage prices and profit more in an ubi society is a valid counterpoint too, however.
It is people who work normalish jobs who would see the biggest gains. People on welfare now would not be (much) better off monetarily (depending on what the ubi is set at), but would no longer be stigmatised in the way they often are now.
 
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jambon

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Universal Basic Income is a precursor to overhauling our entire monetary system and structure for government. And is honestly something that needs to happen if we ever hope to one day have a unified planet where we all work for the good of our species rather than blowing each other up.

Money has been backed by literally nothing for many years and has lead to instability and crashes of entire countries economies in recent years. Some countries no longer even have their own currency due to this. These issues have also been exacerbated with the invention of consumer credit and the now impossible to pay off country debt. I mean USA owes 23 TRILLION and only gets 3.65 Trillion per year in revenue. Even if they stopped paying out literally everything (all services, workers, social assistance/security, military, road maintenance...etc..etc.) And put the entire earnings towards the debt you're talking about nearly 7 years to pay that off assuming all interest on the debt stops too! People declare bankruptcy everyday for situations not as dire as this!

Anyways, I could probably write a 3000 page post about this stuff but I won't.

Bottom line, UBI = a good thing. But it's a baby step towards something much greater that needs to happen and will inevitably happen.
 

Naverith

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The "debt" you speak of was never designed to be paid off, and in fact, can't be. It is the aggregate amount of loans the US receives (for operating purposes) from a private enterprises called "The Federal Reserve". They are neither "federal" or a reserve. They are private owned and answer to no one. They are the main controller of the US monetary system.

The taxes that are gleaned from the US citizens, do NOT go to the US government. They go to an independent corporation called the "Internal Revenue Service", who in turn, transfers the money back to the Federal Reserve as payment on the interest ONLY for the (so called) "National debt".

For further data on this, read this book (free PDF download) called THE CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND

Only a Socialist would cry "it's all the fault of the rich". The (so called) "rich" weren't born that way. Most of them worked their asses off. In fact, there are an average of 300,000 to 700,000 new millionaires a year in the U.S., and more world wide. It can be done.

The problem is that there is (in each country), a ruling elite. These people (or one of their children) have always held the power of the country, one way or another. They create a system wherein THEY control the purse strings. They create systems to make sure that their "subjects" must always fight for survival, or (at least) put most of their energies into basic survival (shelter, clothing, food, fuel).

This is done on purpose. What do you think would happen if the general population didn't have problems in their lives? They might actually pay attention to what's really happening and go into a revolution.

The bottom line is this. We are controlled. Controlled into what to buy, where to live, how far we can go in life, what we're taught, what we're told NOT to think, talk or do. We're controlled by threats from over 187 agencies (in the US) that can, and would, totally destroy your life if you didn't "toe the line" they created for you.

If all the controlling entities simply disappeared, we'd be able to create a more functioning system, based on the needs of each individual country.

I'm not calling for anarchy. I'm saying we need a governmental system like what was envisioned by the Declaration of Independence, that was signed into existence (in America) on August 2 1776. It was a very workable system, wherein the "people" held the power, and the government was their servant.

That lasted a very short time, until the afore-mentioned elites I spoke of flexed their muscles and started to regain complete control over this new country.

As I've said before: human morals and integrity, in certain people, take the path of least resistance. As long as that is the norm, as long as too many people are saying "what's in it for me", as long as the general attitude of millennials is based on "entitlement" and not on service to others, we will not advance as a society.

We have lost (at least) 4 generations to the controlling propaganda of the Elites. They supersede the boundaries of political parties.

Allow me to quote Edmund Burke:
"People will not look forward to posterity, who never look backward to their ancestors."

But you'll probably understand it better from George Santayana:
"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
 

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... And is honestly something that needs to happen if we ever hope to one day have a unified planet where we all work for the good of our species rather than blowing each other up...
And yet another idealistic dreamer.

As if mankind will ever unite. As if we will ever stop blowing each other up.
As long as men is free to be an individual there will always be strife. There will always be competition for resources.
Unless you turn man into a mindless zombie.

You know where this came true? North Korea.
No free will. 100% centralized.

Do you really want that? Seriously?

Damn, I hope these socialistic dreamers will never come to power! And I know for sure many people like me will stand up to trash that system!

Also, you talk about the good of our species. As if mankind is doing bad at the moment. The human virus is slowly overtaking the planet. The problem is, our species is already doing to well!
For the sake of the planet, we need wars. We need to keep blowing each other up. For the sake of keeping our numbers in check. Exactly the same as in the natural world.

So, stop dreaming and be realistic.

I'd rather fight for what I want instead of being spoon fed like a baby my entire life! It's nature!
 

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Here's a simple thought experiment:

Say you own a business, trying to sell product or service to the public.

Law now gives everyone $xxx/Month. Every person. Every month. (This is the very simple definition of UBI)

Do you factor that into your pricing and increase the price a bit, knowing everyone has a bit more now?

Apply your answer to every business you buy from.
 

GxB

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Here's a simple thought experiment:

Say you own a business, trying to sell product or service to the public.

Law now gives everyone $xxx/Month. Every person. Every month. (This is the very simple definition of UBI)

Do you factor that into your pricing and increase the price a bit, knowing everyone has a bit more now?

Apply your answer to every business you buy from.
ive told em several times and never got a response. probably because left wing guys are usually quite stupid and dont understand how the market works. or common sense. or basically anything related to the real world.
 

mastermesh

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Here's a simple thought experiment:

Say you own a business, trying to sell product or service to the public.

Law now gives everyone $xxx/Month. Every person. Every month. (This is the very simple definition of UBI)

Do you factor that into your pricing and increase the price a bit, knowing everyone has a bit more now?

Apply your answer to every business you buy from.
The theory is that even though prices will go up the UBI amount will be set higher than what that markup value will be so it will offset it... what looks good on paper though isn't always what'll actually work.

The reason the idea sounds good is because it would basically tax those areas of an economy that aren't currently taxed, hopefully putting more burden on those that find loopholes now... but well, every system has loopholes, so they'd just find more more than likely.
 

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WTF are you all talking about? We all need to work for food, it's the curse!

Stop that idyllic Utopian thoughts, that will never happen. And our governments will make sure of that.


Here some people live a entire life from the help of the state but they are a minority, they don't have anything in their names and usually have 5/7/10 or more kids, usually they are emigrants from poor countries.


Imagine EU with just sweaters and fruit pickers to who will they sell it? :D
 

LavaSparks

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Imagine EU with just sweaters and fruit pickers to who will they sell it? :D
Let's try a thought experiment:

Let' say MA closes down input and output of PEDs from EU. (Whatever PEDs are consumed by the system goes back to loot). Then they tax everyone 10 % annually.

All tax is divided equally to every player (read: UBI). What will happen?

Top networth players will pay a lot more to the UBI pot than the average player. The average player will now have more ped to spend. This will generate a lot of economic activity (GDP if you will) - so-called "growth".

Top players gave out the biggest piece of the cake, but they will get it back through added economic activity.

Those who wants to add value to their UBI can go Sweating or picking fruit.

After one year, most of the peds have gone back to top players (Messi :tongue2:). Rinse and repeat - everyone gets to play for another year.


End of experiment: MA removes ingame UBI. 90 % of players go broke after 1 year and have to sell burgers at McD or bike 100 miles a day delivering mail IRL so they can deposit more peds and lose them again. Rinse and repeat :D
 

Naverith

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Weirdest theory I've ever heard, and disproven easily.

When Socialism is instigated in a Capitalist (free market, private property) society "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need", we know what happens.

In many cities in the U.S., the minimum wage (what has been traditionally paid to children who work at fast food joints 'til they get real jobs) was raised to an arbitrary amount of $15.00 per hour, by the local politicians, who were pandering to their Socialistic voters.

The immediate reactions were the following:

1) Hundreds of small businesses closed, as they couldn't afford the forced raise of pay.
2) Hundreds of people lost their jobs.
3) Cost of goods went up 25% to 100%.
4) The local tax district lost millions of dollars in taxes due to less workers and less businesses paying taxes.

Now, the Socialists that had been whining about not having a "living wage", lost their jobs and couldn't even afford to eat at the fast food places they used to work at.

Implementing a Socialistic agenda (such as this one) in a free market, simply destroys the area.

Personally, I think there SHOULD be a UBI for citizens (and I mean CITIZENS) that need it. But with a tiny catch: the person receiving the UBI must work for the issueing authority during the time they receive the UBI, either doing public improvements, assistance in hospitals or old folks homes. Maybe 20 hours a week.

That way, there would be a "fair exchange" and would qualify under the Capitalistic system and the fairness required by all people on a personal basis.
 
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