Universal Basic Income

Haruto Rat

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Free things are worth what you pay for them.
 

Gregg

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Interesting concept.
 

jetsina

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Free things are worth what you pay for them.
If that were so, then smiles and a helpful hand would be worthless too.
If the scale goes from zero to a hundred, then where do I and others draw a line of not doing something for free?

Most people say they need to be paid for their work so that they can afford to live, because that is the system we live in. Many people I know would like changes to that system, however. Not complete changes to the system, but where the basics can be met without earnt income required - a universal basic income.

Personally, I think it is time for resources and polluting actions to finally be valued, as these are indeed abused as if they are free and have no consequences. One problem with energy and material prices which reflect this, however, is that poor people have always suffered when prices rise. An UBI model could be used to pay back the higher costs to the people. People as a whole are not worse off, but would 'respect' the use of energy and materials more, as it is now given a higher value. This would lead to better efficiency, less waste etc.

In that sense I agree with the above: thus, energy and materials should not be as 'almost free' as they are now. On top of that, yes I also believe in an UBI which covers the basics of living on top of this energy/pricing model.
 

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If you were to give everyone 50 million dollars , they would all be millionaires.

A loaf of bread would also cost 5k dollars and the kid mowing your lawn would charge 25k .
 

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I just want to know who is going to pickup the trash in the morning.
 

San

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A better concept would be "Universal Basic Credit" directly at the source of fiat money. This would create a "human gold standard" and remove slavery from the current system where social security expenses are taken by force from the productive, thereby implementing all sections of the UDHR without them conflicting each other.
 
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a lot of negativity towards universal basic income here. As far as I know from the studies conducted in this the results were surprisingly positive.

I suspect we are used to the system that we have and something completely different like this isn't taken too seriously by most folks. However, I think there is merit in this system and something like this could be forced upon us by governments when advancements in AI leads to many job losses.
 

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UBI is how the economy will work in future or we will go extinct. However, at this time, it can not work at scale.
Current economy has lots of other problems to solve. The level of automation is not where it should be to allow for UBI based economy.
A country who decides to implement such a thing, will see that the only way ti sustain it is by taxing the sectors of economy that are productive. The result is that more and more will move to other countries where is just cheaper to produce and sell. For UBI to work, it would need to be implemented in multiple places and those places must have high level of productivity already. Advances in AI will probably bring us there in the next 10-15 years, but not just now.
Before UBI, there are several other aspects of economy that need to change. One of those aspects is planned obsolescence. An economy that needs to grow and it needs to generate needs, it will want to create products that fail, so new products are purchased. This aspect of economy has good and bad consequences. The bad ones are obvious, but on the flip side, it supports technological advancement and innovation. Another thing is that your products break before you get bored with them. When automation becomes ubiquitous, this will become an aspect that will concern us all.


Further more, even tho I believe UBI will be a feature of our existence in the very near future, I believe that it will lead to us destroying ourselves. Many people will lack the need to chase meaningful goals, and society will crumble, and I expect an outcome similar to the one in rats paradise experiment.
 

Fiona Simmons

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If you take away work from people you take away their reason to live and all of their status in society! I dont see how a UBI fight that. People dont want free money, they want work and i dont believe an UBI can set out on a large scale without killing the social peace. Its like telling you, hey you're utterly useless and your existence has no meaning but we feed you anyways.
 

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

Swiss voters have overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to introduce a guaranteed basic income for all.
Final results from Sunday's referendum showed that nearly 77% opposed the plan, with only 23% backing it.
The proposal had called for adults to be paid an unconditional monthly income, whether they worked or not.
The supporters camp had suggested a monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs (£1,755; $2,555) for adults and also SFr625 for each child.
The amounts reflected the high cost of living in Switzerland. It is not clear how the plan would have affected people on higher salaries.
The supporters had also argued that since work was increasingly automated, fewer jobs were available for workers.
Switzerland is the first country to hold such a vote.
 

Nakor of Boreft

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If you take away work from people you take away their reason to live and all of their status in society! I dont see how a UBI fight that. People dont want free money, they want work and i dont believe an UBI can set out on a large scale without killing the social peace. Its like telling you, hey you're utterly useless and your existence has no meaning but we feed you anyways.
who said anything about taking work away from people?
UBI just gives more freedom to the people to pursue what they enjoy doing. Studying, working, taking care of others, doing nothing.

Financing a UBI has been discussed where i live(The Netherlands) and with removing all benefits and tax reductions that we have now. It's not as expensive as you might think. For some it would even mean less to spend (people with tax cuts higher than the UBI for example).
 

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One argument for UBI that wasn't mentioned is the fact that lot of low skill work is getting replaced by automation. If we get to a point where there actually won't be enough jobs for everybody, UBI might become a necessity.
 

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A politican and economst in my country brought this to discussion a few years ago.

The situation here would be that paying an UBI to all germans that equal the income of a person that lives from sozial care, would be cheaper than what the actual social system costs (inlcuding administrative labor costs).

The gouvernment could save money, but thousands of people who work actually work in the administration would become jobless.

I think it would be a good system.
Those who want to have more money still can get a job.
I think it would have an positive effect for niches that actually have a problem to get workers due to low income in that niche. With an UBI more people may work in that places simply because they dont need to get a better paid job to be able to feed their family as this is already backed up by the UBI.

As no country has implemented this UBI system we cant talk from experience!
As long nobody try it it will be a nice and heavily discussed theorie.

We can only learn if it works if some country implements it, then we get some experience. If its good experience other countries will follow. If its bad, it will die faster than it was born.

What we need is some politicans with big balls to try it.
 

forgo

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I don't think any modern society needs a whole class of people dependent on a check with zero investment involved

There is a class of people that does kind of fall into this category, the disabled, these checks are earned too, but and you find they are riddled with depression and very little self worth. Its a hard way to live, with nothing to be proud of and no ability to work for that pride. People need to be active.

If people are to get paid outside of an earned benefit, they should either Work for it in the communities they live, or Invest in the communities they live. Anything else denigrates society into one which ends up with a completely useless and voiceless people susceptible to crime, drugs, corruption and government takeover.

Wealth is a motivator for progress and change for humanity. Without distinction between those who work for it and those who do not, progress and motivation dies.

The world has come out of poverty at the fastest rates we have ever recorded, there is not a mad rush to start giving money away, instead we should be rewarding those who are willing and actually put in the effort to make good things happen.

Automation is a silly argument, Technology grows, and so does the need to support it, and the new technologies we will create. Shipping factories overseas can and has done far far more damage in the last 20 years than automation will do in the next 50 to those jobs....they already left. While a few countries are in a position to actually improve factories with automation, many of the rest of the world is nowhere near that level, and much of the 3rd world is now the manpower for the factories of those countries ready to automate. The third world, who we raised out of poverty with those jobs will be needing to solve a problem of losing them...not the people in countries with automation or considering universal income.

IMO anyhow.
 
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jetsina

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The situation here would be that paying an UBI to all germans that equal the income of a person that lives from sozial care, would be cheaper than what the actual social system costs (inlcuding administrative labor costs).
That isn't correct the way you have written it. It would be cheaper to run the system of UBI than the social benefits system as it stands, but the money running through the system would be quite a bit higher. That second part is not 'cheaper' as such, but does not have to be a problem when the government can change its revenue side upwards as well.

For example, there would be no more tax-free allowance (or you can say the UBI eats the allowance up for everyone). Any work would thus be taxed from the start, increasing government income (revenue) on the assumption that the amount of work stayed the same. This would make up part of paying the 'extra' costs of an UBI, along with other measures such as a Tobin tax on trading shares, possibly a higher VAT (MwSt) rate, environmental taxation etc.

Of course, things will not stay the same... and automation is quite a threat to how many jobs will be available in the future even if we don't change the system. I agree that work is not just for money; people need to feel valued, useful and engaged. I see an UBI as a necessary part of system change, but by no means all we need to do.
 

trance

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More and more our workplaces get changed with AI. Ofc, there will be also new jobs, but it never will give work for everyone. So some day, there will be no way to give ppl a basic incoming. If most ppl are poor, also the rich ones will loose, about who will buy theyr products, if most ppl just are very poor? Also it could cause a civil war, if too many ppl noting have to eat. This means, the industry and politic need to do something (basic incoming) to solve the problem AI is causing on human workplaces.
 

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Lovely Bella

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I was against the UBI until I realized something important: when you work, you would earn money ON TOP of the UBI. People could decide to not work, but they would have to live a very frivolous and scant lifestyle. The motivation behind working would still be there, because we work so we can make better lives for ourselves.

If you can earn money on top of the UBI, then almost certainly people would still pursue normal job careers. The purpose of having the UBI is just to help the homeless and the impoverished to have a better foothold so they can pursue better lives
 

Aloisius

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i bought lunch with my doges i mined some years ago and forgot about. when i searched my wallets the other day i discovered like 600 usd.

i was watching kaiser report today when a guy was talking about the value of bitcoin compared to stocks. he said bitcoin doesn't derive its value from corporate profit, interest rates and economic growth like stocks and bonds do but from its technology, regulatory changes, adoption and millenials.

point being: start mining; contribute to a worthy system.

UBI is good for communists. if you don't stop the commies from sleeping under your beds it'll turn into the satanic panic. mark my words.
 
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wizz

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I'm fully against a UBI.

We already have welfare. That's good enough.

No free money. Work for it you lazy bastards!

And if you can't work, fair enough, you get welfare.

Not everybody wants to work or needs a job to have an existential life. Enough people with hobbies. Or people that would just play entropia all day and get free money. :silly2:
And who will pay for this?
Yes, hard-working folks.

So, let's not, ok?
 

Svena

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Its going to be funny watching the panic when a large portion of the economy is being performed by robots.

Truck drivers, taxi drivers, warehouse workers, retail workers, fast food workers, banking and investment workers, and probably some more I'm forgetting are on the chopping block in the next 10 or so years.

Thats just counting jobs that are at risk with CURRENT technology, stuff we already know how to do and are just working out the cost and trust rates.


Just imagine the chaos if some company were to finalize a brute force machine learning style AI or if some one comes up with a true blue AI. That puts 90% of humanity out of a job.
 

jetsina

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That's a good point Bella that I'm sure some people don't realise. In Germany there are local groups with large posters that can be rolled out on the ground. There are different versions but they basically ask what people would want to do if their basic income was secured.
Almost everyone would want to carry on working in some capacity, as working means more to people than just money. However, some would want to work a bit less in order to spend more time with their families, others would also want to expand on volunteering, further education etc.

An UBI does not mean a complete change, but it is quite a big change and a chance for people to feel more secure. I'm no longer a youngster, but I see how the world is becoming less secure for them. Sure, most young people find their way, but in a world that is becoming more pushy.

I do see where the thinking comes from that people should work for anything they get. In animal groups lazy members are also not tolerated. And yet, children do not have to work in most parts of the world any more, but are given the start in life they need. In today's world, I think that should actually extend to everyone - a basic income. We may even achieve better results when work is a desirable activity instead of a necessity.

Who's the guy who did the work on 'bullshit?' jobs, where people in offices and other places do not actually DO anything useful, but have to pretend that they do? That is a big drain as well in our modern societies...
 

MichaelStewart

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You mean automation's going to take away my remedial job as a telephone switchboard operator? Besides, we already have a Universal Basic Income.

It's $0.

The UBI is $0.
 

mastermesh

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It's an interesting concept...

I assume this is mainly here since it indirectly has to do with politics, etc., which isn't really allowed, but well...

Andrew Yang's the biggest proponent of it that I have read of recently. His idea is to tax 'services' in order to pay for it...

If you are not aware, here there is an income tax, but not a service tax... at least not directly...

so like if you go to a hospital or something you'll pay a copay, and a coinsurance, and possibly a deductible, as well as anything the insurance won't cover (due to any number of made up reasons they create - for example if some insurance says they only want to pay for 2 ultrasounds per pregnancy, they'll pay on the 2, but you'll get the full bill for that third or 4th one, etc.), if you have one, which legally you are supposed to since the president before this one set laws in place for that, etc., which you pay a premium for monthly... but anyways, the Doctor's actual hourly 'service' fee and nurses 'service fee' are not taxed, even though in a roundabout way they kind of are because of how the corrupt insurance industry is well... uh... yes... (most hospitals and clinics charge insane rates of at least 35% markup on everything from the cost of a medication to the cost of a supply including but not limited to the tongue depressors...) ... and all of this is on top of already outdated models of payment like what Medicare and Medicaid use... paying some flat rate no matter what for inpatient services even if that flat rate is more than what the hospital may be charging... so you could have something like some insurance or Medicare pay the hospital or doctor say 500 dollars for something they'd bill only 400 for, and on top of that there's a copay you have to pay too, of oh say 300.00 so your insurance or Medicare will pay 500+you pay copay of 300 for... so 800 paid to hospital for something little ol hospital is only billing 400 for... great system...

so yep, more taxes on already overpriced shit so that everyone can get a free, at least everyone legally here over a certain age, can get free monthly amounts back as sort of a negative income tax, but wait... what the hell...

so uh... yeah... more taxes to pay on top of already paid crap that is way overpaid in the first place... yippiee..
 
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Ranavolana

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fft :( there is no such thing as free money.
You have to WEORK for it.
 
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