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News: Update Regarding Core Balancing of Entropia

Bertha Bot said:

Why It’s So Complex​

Over the more than 20 years of continuous operation, an enormous number of items have been introduced into the game. Each comes with multiple parameters—damage, deterioration, hit rate, damage type, etc.—plus factors like loot lists, drop rates, TT value, market value, skill effects, and more. When you add in other game mechanics and the fact that Entropia Universe has a real-cash economy, balancing becomes incredibly intricate.

Frankly, it isn’t humanly possible to manage this complexity effectively with our older tools.
Click to expand...

Wow.

Reading this statement like an investment analyst reads a quarterly earnings report, there's a lot to this...

Personally, I wish the problem would have just been fixed than to know there is a problem. I do find it interesting though that market value of items is considered in loot balancing. Kind of answers a question I've always had.. Are resources MU's due more to demand or supply, it appears more supply. Might actually do better mining for Oil than trying to get MU from Pyrite... Fascinating and concerning.
 
Bulletproof Spider said:
Wow.

Reading this statement like an investment analyst reads a quarterly earnings report, there's a lot to this...

Personally, I wish the problem would have just been fixed than to know there is a problem. I do find it interesting though that market value of items is considered in loot balancing. Kind of answers a question I've always had.. Are resources MU's due more to demand or supply, it appears more supply. Might actually do better mining for Oil than trying to get MU from Pyrite... Fascinating and concerning.
Click to expand...

You can see there is a problem from everything being worthless compared to before and players leaving and not cycling. It's not saying they are factoring in MU on loot for your TT return if that's what you're thinking. So don't go to archipelago and target oil/lyst. Just saying the droprates need to be controlled in order to make some artificial MU for us to chase after. It just doesn't make any sense saying the word AI with it since they have a wave system already in place which releases a certain amount of rarer stuff. As far as I know it's made upon creation of the mob then adjusted or item like twen token added etc. AI would only be an opening for even more problems and exploits.

To MA:
Is the Unlimited space loot fixed yet?
 
Bulletproof Spider said:
I do find it interesting though that market value of items is considered in loot balancing.
Click to expand...
This is something they have denied directly multiple times over the years actually. Interesting that it's been said to be a factor all of a sudden.

But like also denying the "personal loot pool" they misdirect by withholding the full truth of things. While they deny there being a "personal loot pool" by general definition they don't confirm or deny that personal RTP is a metric that can come into play when the system is determining just how big a hof that's about to be paid out for a loot event is much of the time (not all the time) as it's not technically a "loot pool".

Uncanny how often the guy down 25k in mayhem has his first hof be a 20k and the guy only down 1000 gets 900 for his first hof on the exact same mob level. In other words, I've always found it more common for peoples response to a 5-digit hof to be "this doesn't even bring me back to even this week" rather than "this is all profit, I was only down about 1000 this week!"

Seems like you lose a lot in a short period of time and you get a kickback for a good % of what you lost. Lose a lot over a long time and you're lucky to get much back at all when you do hit something.
 
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James Jimbo Linehan said:
You can see there is a problem from everything being worthless compared to before and players leaving and not cycling. It's not saying they are factoring in MU on loot for your TT return if that's what you're thinking.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what they are saying, read it again.
Bertha Bot said:
We understand that many of you are concerned about our recent content updates, especially regarding items, loot, and the overall economy—hereafter referred to as “Balancing.”

Commitment to Core Balancing​


We’re pleased to inform you that the majority of our software engineers are laser-focused on addressing these core issues, and we are committed to making this central part of the game more engaging going forward. We fully recognize that for most players, these aspects are what make Entropia Universe so unique and exciting.

Why It’s So Complex​


Over the more than 20 years of continuous operation, an enormous number of items have been introduced into the game. Each comes with multiple parameters—damage, deterioration, hit rate, damage type, etc.—plus factors like loot lists, drop rates, TT value, market value, skill effects, and more. When you add in other game mechanics and the fact that Entropia Universe has a real-cash economy, balancing becomes incredibly intricate.

Frankly, it isn’t humanly possible to manage this complexity effectively with our older tools.

Ongoing Updates and Additional Improvements​


In addition to balancing loot and items, we’re also actively addressing other systems that need attention.
Click to expand...

It's a post about using AI to 'Balance loot and items',
Each comes with multiple parameters—damage, deterioration, hit rate, damage type, etc.—plus factors like loot lists, drop rates, TT value, market value, skill effects, and more.
Click to expand...
They are considering 'Market Value' or Markup with this loot/item rebalancing, and they have introduced
an enormous number of items have been introduced into the game
Click to expand...
Over the past 20 years, which they've done while considering the Market Value.

At any rate, it appears with the market value of most items collapsing 30-50%, they realize there are big issues and they're praying AI can help rebalance loot based on all of the new data pertaining to "damage, deterioration, hit rate, damage type, etc.—plus factors like loot lists, drop rates, TT value, market value, skill effects, and more."

A good example of this is the 10,000's of ped that go into some of these mission chains, sometimes 1000's lost, to create a new armor that is now 50% less valuable, ie. Paneleon Spec. It doesn't make sense to burn cash for these prizes, so the engine of a lot of their depositor growth is deteriorating.

Or the millions of dollars deposited to get Mayhem items, only to have the prices be cut 50% and hundreds of thousands in value lost. And it's not like they can just make a new chain or Mayhem event with more items to chase for Mark up in order to increase deposits, because that will collapse prices further. There's just too little money in game, too many items, and the player base is stagnated.
 
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atomicstorm said:
what makes you think we don't already
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Well with how little this company and playerbase understand A.I, most of the top players botting is basically A.I playing lol.

Most of the people here can’t even tell when someone is botting and there’s absolutely more sophisticated bots in the game. Because there is in every other MMMORPG, that can do end game content, hold conversions, medium, low level content, quests. Merchant/Flipping bots, Scout bots that report to discord where someone is on the map + what their wearing+ average value of what their wearing etc.
 
I tracked and read each post from where it started - resource mayhem, then mayhem, then space mining. I see same people, same wishful thinking that they will hire a competent person who would keep this economy flowing., same ideas, same reaction.
I lost my hope that they read this thread or your post. Or any. That I will ever receive any statement from MindArk how on earth "bots" are in game against whom I actually do play?
Why everything that I achieve through all this years is now worthless, no doubt about it. Even my deposit, don't have any impact on my game. Nothing.
and now this AI comes up which is surreal absurd, and those bugs that last like for months, support don't exist. This responsible team is don't exist either.
From resource mayhem is pure collapse. But this opinion do not matter.
 
SoberPhil said:
Is it true that the UA daily mission reward is coming out of the CLDT payments?
Click to expand...

jambon said:
I think it's funded directly by your returns while the mission is active. x% of all your loots on mobs (up to 50 ped) for a mission is probably withheld and just paid out once you turn things in. I don't think this is additional returns - but gives a nice illusion that is it. It's gotta be funded by something.
Click to expand...

The rewards come from the same place as all quest/mission rewards. They are at cost to MindArk, not a deduction of your loot or anything else like that. We pay it "out of pocket".
 
Ludvig|MindArk said:
The rewards come from the same place as all quest/mission rewards. They are at cost to MindArk, not a deduction of your loot or anything else like that. We pay it "out of pocket".
Click to expand...
Any statement on what this "A.I" bullshit actually means? Can you provide a modicum of actual information instead of random buzz words that have no substance or meaning?

What you currently have implemented NPC wise is NOT A.I, and I think those of us who have understanding of it don't even believe it is machine learning outside of it's most basic form which is one or 2 word recognition. Which was done in a game 20 years ago called Facade.

Please just give us SOMETHING that isn't complete and utter bullshit spouted from the couple of people left who are making these decisions.

You're one of our 2 voices to the company and it just seems like you or the other person are NOT saying the correction things to those who are in charge.
 
Feedback: I told you before you make with tokens Equus warps worthless and with flightspeed you made all warps worthless as well.

You not make fair the game with changes for warp services you killed them.

So take 30 warp tokens and range universe minimum 3 or 4 times larger as before or it is unfair as i said before in a post and support case.
 
@Ludvig|MindArk Is CelestAi being ran in-house or is MindArk contracting the work out? If it was contracted out it would probably give more confidence in having a positive result from this change.
 
@Ludvig|MindArk

Hi ludvig, is the space Unlimited and commonly dropped rares loot bug in space fixed yet? The prices and amount in game not sold yet on redulite, ignisium, vesperdite, belkar, and gems has crashed so badly that even space mining is becoming a waste of time to do for people. The amount of redulite and gems in people's accounts will take a literal decade to consume at this point before prices could ever come back to what they were when these resources were still rare. Please have them hurry and fix/cap these it is it is making us lose faith in the economy to even keep cycling.

Thanks for clearing up where the money is coming from with the new dailies and nice job on those.
 
i read all messages. It Is disappointing.
WE .. THE PAYING CUSTOMERS
Do not want AI into game we want developers that know game mechanics and know how to fix past months errors
Items are Just dpp dps eff and Just looking at amps itemization is bad.
To start
. Remove dead end items
Many BP and many loot are useless (i point tò RT)
. Fix ewe ep41 adjust formula (yes guys mechanomatrix are off since 20 updates
. Rationalize resources
. Convert melee items tò AMMO
. Add codex to RT
Yes It Is a complex game but all Is parametric.
Let devs open entropianexus and learn

New missions are Just a Better rewards grindfest.
AI does not examine player dps or defense and give tò 30 dodgers daspletors as a target
It Is Just a random List of nearby mobs

Too many expectations not fulfilled.

Give us SMALL GOALS that devs Will acconplish at a deadline
Just like "we Will solve High River Banks player Stuck" and then SOLVE IT

or we Will make ep41 adjustable again via altering the (l) pistols to deliver at ithaca.

We dont Need a "Deus ex machina" to solve all... We Need maintained promises
 
Msturlese said:
i read all messages. It Is disappointing.
WE .. THE PAYING CUSTOMERS
Do not want AI into game we want developers that know game mechanics and know how to fix past months errors
Items are Just dpp dps eff and Just looking at amps itemization is bad.
To start
. Remove dead end items
Many BP and many loot are useless (i point tò RT)
. Fix ewe ep41 adjust formula (yes guys mechanomatrix are off since 20 updates
. Rationalize resources
. Convert melee items tò AMMO
. Add codex to RT
Yes It Is a complex game but all Is parametric.
Let devs open entropianexus and learn

New missions are Just a Better rewards grindfest.
AI does not examine player dps or defense and give tò 30 dodgers daspletors as a target
It Is Just a random List of nearby mobs

Too many expectations not fulfilled.

Give us SMALL GOALS that devs Will acconplish at a deadline
Just like "we Will solve High River Banks player Stuck" and then SOLVE IT

or we Will make ep41 adjustable again via altering the (l) pistols to deliver at ithaca.

We dont Need a "Deus ex machina" to solve all... We Need maintained promises
Click to expand...
100% agree.
 
Bertha Bot said:

Why It’s So Complex​


Over the more than 20 years of continuous operation, an enormous number of items have been introduced into the game. Each comes with multiple parameters—damage, deterioration, hit rate, damage type, etc.—plus factors like loot lists, drop rates, TT value, market value, skill effects, and more. When you add in other game mechanics and the fact that Entropia Universe has a real-cash economy, balancing becomes incredibly intricate.

Frankly, it isn’t humanly possible to manage this complexity effectively with our older tools.
Click to expand...
How do you eat an elephant? Climb a mountain? Complete a game engine migration?

The truth is the evaluation of all these items should have started at the same time as the UE5 migration.
Then you would have had plenty of time to slowly divide and conquer all of the items.

We are missing the application of the 7 P's.

Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance

Also, has MindArk not been performing an ongoing evaluation of all assets in the game? Like wtf is MindArk doing just flying blind?

This shit right here is why there are so many exploits in the game involving items.
Game breaking shit that has been around for years.

This shit affects your bottom line but are you evaluating it on an on-going basis? Do you have a position specifically tasked with this responsibility? NO.

Will this change with the application of CelestAi? NO.
 
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One word:

GARBAGE.
 
AI will be better than humans. No more happy hours

#wewontforget
 
Msturlese said:
i read all messages. It Is disappointing.
WE .. THE PAYING CUSTOMERS
Do not want AI into game we want developers that know game mechanics and know how to fix past months errors
Items are Just dpp dps eff and Just looking at amps itemization is bad.
To start
. Remove dead end items
Many BP and many loot are useless (i point tò RT)
. Fix ewe ep41 adjust formula (yes guys mechanomatrix are off since 20 updates
. Rationalize resources
. Convert melee items tò AMMO
. Add codex to RT
Yes It Is a complex game but all Is parametric.
Let devs open entropianexus and learn

New missions are Just a Better rewards grindfest.
AI does not examine player dps or defense and give tò 30 dodgers daspletors as a target
It Is Just a random List of nearby mobs

Too many expectations not fulfilled.

Give us SMALL GOALS that devs Will acconplish at a deadline
Just like "we Will solve High River Banks player Stuck" and then SOLVE IT

or we Will make ep41 adjustable again via altering the (l) pistols to deliver at ithaca.

We dont Need a "Deus ex machina" to solve all... We Need maintained promises
Click to expand...
Yes, glad to see someone else is thinking this too. ❤️
 
step 1, AI to run and manage game.
Step 2, sack everyone
Step 3, year round vacation feet up on tiktok.
 
Sulje said:
Economy is not yet down to pre-corona state, there is no longer a reason for people to spend time home all day and nobody is forced to stay home play an online afk simulator, which is why MA should have used the opportunity to grow, instead some mistakes are made, but the player base is still strong for such a niche game, and I don't think the game will ever completely die, but could be potentially sold to someone else, who might have ideas to turn it into crypto game or some shit like that.

They could use AI for example to go trough all player feedback, or for some fun experience,.. Core balancing? Nah that's not happening with AI, and anyone with even slight techical knowledge knows how unlikely is that to be real. I'll give you one example - facebook uses AI to process user reports, let's just say it's correct 0.1% of the time, so if the company that invested 1B+ into the system couldn't achieve such simple task, you really think Mindark the Swedish company of 12 employees could achieve loot balance by using AI ?

As for UE5, I have said when they announced it it won't happen for at least 5 years, even if then, considering the proven knowledge of MA developers, which is releasing bug on top of bug every release, which are not even listed in known bugs section even after 10s of people complained about it by tagging officials and posting on forum.

While on that, don't forget the UI feedback thread where all real feedback was completely ignored, and only minor things were fixed.
Remember Treasure Island promises and encouragement regarding quick hotfixes patches listening to user feedback (until it was sold out, since then not a word)

There is a long list of things that pisses people off, such as big promises tiny deliveries, only thing left to betray the player base is to start delaying withdrawals, and that's when the panic will kick in and game will die immediatelly. So as long as I see that withdrawals are working in reasonable promised timeframe, I personally don't think the game is dead, that is the only indicator. I am personally ready for this if it happens, as anyone smart should be. Have fun, but be ready for rug pull.

Summary message for MA: Wake up
Click to expand...
This post has some serious truth in it and is one of the most relevant posts I have read in a while.

I am sad to see another "we hear you post" that more seems like a PR statement than anything els.

Its good that MA is trying things. But it is apparant, at this point, that they go about it the wrong way. It also seems clear to me that they bit of more than they can chew.

Instead of acting on feedback and seeing that they need 1 of thier employees to become an expert on balancing and adress the playerbase concerns - they are doubeling down on what they have been doing.

I am sure this has to do with ma going public again and have new voices that steer the way. People that do not understand that maximizing profit short term destroys the revenue long term in a real cash economy. And that can happen faster then they believe they way they are going about it.

Before reading this thread I did not relize that the space update - and MA moving planetside rare ores to space - is more then likely another move of greed. Moving mining into space where there is no CLD to take away from the profits. Automating it and making it redely availible. "hmmm how do we get around CLD - AHHhhh move mining to space" acctually seems possible at this point.

I am SAD to say that for every move and PR statement they put out - my hope diminishes. I so want them to succeed. But how in the world do they believe that an AI software is the answer to this companys problems. I mean for people that understand this tech - its INSANE.

PLEASE change course before its too late.

MA fighting ~
 
I don't think you're going to get very far ahead with this community by stating that balancing is "so complex...", I think it will mostly prompt a lot of people to clamor back:"it's NOT really that complex..."

So for good form, here's another such response, from me:

All games revolve around a basic principle of rock-paper-scissors really, and Entropia is no different. While most games rock-paper-scissor proposition is a combo of Armor/Defense power (rock), Attack/DPS capability (paper), and Health/Energy or Stamina (scissors), Entropia is quite different because it's a game fundamentally about making money.

Rock (your PED card)
Every time I log in, I have to take a good look at my PED card balance and ask myself "How am I going to deploy this PED in order to generate profit today?" I look at the PED available and have to think about the different ways I can utilize it. Am I going to go for a particular rare item, for general mu, trade with it, buy deeds for passive income, invest in specific UL gear and put that gear to use as a long-term strategy, etc... There are a lot of different ways that players can deploy PED in this game and I think MA has done a pretty good job with this one actually. There are many strategies available, many paths to take.

Paper (your skills)
Your skills in Entropia give you a wider range of possible activity and therefore wider access to the loot systems that exist in Entropia, so it is very important to continually ask yourself what is the best way to leverage your skills at any given time. A player at level 15 won't be able to go hunt Warlocks or Mulciber as an example, so this matters.

Unfortunately MA has screwed this one up very badly, and we find ourselves today in a situation where in all professions, high skills cannot be deployed in any way; there is absolutely no benefit to high skills beyond a certain level (that we know of). For example, in mining, I believe that beyond level 68 or something like that, there is no further benefit. So a level 120 Miner is on the same playing field as a level 75 Miner, which makes no sense and is unfair really.

MA likes to tell us (and everyone else) that Entropia is a game of skills. When they say that, all they are saying is that since you got Skills in exchange for the PED you lost during your gameplay, Entropia cannot be considered to be gambling, that's all that means. In other words, the money lost is the cost of the skills you got and since you can sell the skills, then it's not lost.

But all of that is pointless if skills aren't relevant and have no value to anyone.

Scissors (mu)
Markup in Entropia is key to all activities and players who mind this factor throughout all their gameplay usually do pretty well. But markup is sometimes very volatile in Entropia so it can be a double-edged sword for people who have invested and are holding things of great markup value in the hopes of exploiting those items in order to generate profits; they generally cannot generate profits fast enough to make up for the loss in value of the items they are using. And when that happens, there is a huge drop in confidence in the game as we are seeing now.

Without markup though, the game no longer has any point to exist in a post-loot 2.0 world, because there is no other way to come out ahead then by selling things to other players with markup. MA has been ruining markup lately it seems, and I think we can see the effect of that in terms of people selling out and cashing out (not necessarily a lot, but seems like more then usual), so that goes to show that markup destruction does not inspire long-term players confidence, and it's pretty easy to see why.

---
Although I am sure this post will just go unoticed, lost in a pile of criticism and accusations, I do wanna add that MA could fix a lot of issues by simply just making sure that skills are relevant again, by just doing that, mu would start to recover and you would see people cycling more PED again. I think MA has just gotten lost somewhere, lost sight of why people even spend money on this game, and now you have this situation.

You made it so that skilling up the levels was easier and faster then ever, and that's great, but you forgot that there has to be a point to do so in the first place. Ask yourself: "Why would I spend the time and money to skill to level 100, 200, 300? Is there anything there worthwhile waiting for me? Anything exciting to look forward to?"
 
Ludvig|MindArk said:
The rewards come from the same place as all quest/mission rewards. They are at cost to MindArk, not a deduction of your loot or anything else like that. We pay it "out of pocket".
Click to expand...

~200p per day
100 players will collect 20k PEDs from "your pocket" per day...
in 3 months it sums to 1.8M PEDs (~1.9 MSEK)
Q3 2024 MA's Profit before tax was amounted to 1.1 MSEK (Operating profit is already negative)

So help me to understand what "pocket"? There are no such number in your financials that covers that extra cost

It smells like printing PED which WILL result in disaster...
 
allarom said:
~200p per day
100 players will collect 20k PEDs from "your pocket" per day...
in 3 months it sums to 1.8M PEDs (~1.9 MSEK)
Q3 2024 MA's Profit before tax was amounted to 1.1 MSEK (Operating profit is already negative)

So help me to understand what "pocket"? There are no such number in your financials that covers that extra cost

It smells like printing PED which WILL result in disaster...
Click to expand...
this is a wrong assumption.
1. activity tax is about 2% (less actually), NTI Deed is about 0.25% and "rest of the gain" is Calypso PP and MA.
2. not all the people in EU is running the new quest lines.
3. quest line kills are in the 2500 ped for a 50 ped ammo and 800 blazar (my return) so pretty much in the 2% that is "free skilling".
4. loot of my mission circulate back in the system for crafters so it becomes more player activity

second false assumption is that MA rely on the "activity tax" to survive. if you look at accounting, MA lives off PED SENIORAGE (deposits), that are converted into 30% reserves and 70% profit, that means: in a 1.000 ped deposits, MA "profit" is 700 Ped, over 1 year averata 80.000.000 Ped deposits it is 5.600.000 € sales revenues, then there are costs, development, wages, server, energy.
if ALL playerbase JUST does daily we fall into your case, but i think it is not a realistic proprosition.

of course it is a nice return for players (NI does same with OIL reward for missions) but is not ruining MA Balance account, actually it stimulates economy via larger cycle.
 
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