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Q: 90% TT return. What is the 100%?

AxeMurderer

AxeMurderer

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Nov 15, 2010
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Wand AxeMurderer Silva
For months I am reading that the loot return averages to 90% and I am believing it but.
90% of what? What is the base that make the 100% this 90% are compared to:
90% of: (lets imagine we are using laser rifle)
1)the ammo used
2)the ammo used + weapon decay
3)the ammo used + weapon decay + armor decay
4)the ammo used + weapon decay + armor decay
5)the ammo used + weapon decay + armor decay + healing
6)the ammo used + weapon decay + armor decay + healing + fuel, TP chips, vehicle repair and all spendings
 
To me it'd be 90% of all expenses for the trip.
That can be ammo, repair cost of anything you used, fuel for your vehicle, etc.
 
90% of the cost to kill the mob, NOT counting the armor decay, fap decay, HP reg and travel fee's.

Mobs that regain HP needs to be killed very quickly for the 90% return to be true.. Breer p5a on Troxes, Furor or even higher reg Fresc for example just won't keep you at a 90% TT return in the long run, they simply regain too much... :)



That's how I think of it at least. :)
 
I believe it to be 90% of the total spent while in battle with mob not counting any healing or armr.
So scope and laser would add to the 90% but would cost in use.
 
Tests imply that...

Average return = (total weapon cost per damage point * (health + capped regen))

.. where your misses cause the 9-10% loss.

Armor / Fap / Travel costs don't seem to be compensated..

I'm pretty sure this is quite clearly shown in the various tests that have been done around the forum in the past couple of months.
 
My long term is above 90 and that inclues armor/fap decay. However ive always kept those very low under 3% of a run, usually under 1.5%. Duno if they are compensated for....

Definitely: Weapon decay, amp decay, ammo decay, bomb decay, amp decay, attack chip decay/mindforce.

Maybe/mabye not: Fap, armor, implant decay, scopes, sights, enhancers

Probably not: tp fees, vehicles and associated costs, utility mindforce usage/decay, skill/implant implant/extract fees, auction fees
 
LangeTobias said:
90% of the cost to kill the mob, NOT counting the armor decay, fap decay, HP reg and travel fee's.
Click to expand...

if i didnt count armour/fap costs i'd be well over 100% nearly all the time.

this is the problem with the "90%" average, its different for differnt people, with different methods of counting. i wouldnt count cost incidental to the main activity, so MF, TP fees (definatly not), vehciles dont come into it. if you can optimise your armour/fapping then you should be over the 90% and probably profit over the long term.
 
I'd say ammo + weapon decay only.

Armor and fap decay not being activities that directly yield loot should not be accounted for in hunting returns (as you could be wearing armor and fapping while mining or merely exploring, for example).

Try hunting a mob that you can do naked with overprotection and too big a fap, you'll notice that it is very clear the extra decay from the armor and the fap doesn't come back to you in loot (and yes I'm talking long-term).
 
There is no real way to figure out how much return is supposed to be returns since most people don't track returns vs spending and only a hand full of people do that. From those people that have tracked they averaged about 90% returns, however it does not mean that everyone will ascertain 90% returns since we do not have much data to go off of.

When it boils down to it the game is fixed in a dynamic state and pays out loot randomly per person. I'm sure there is a random algorithm in place that when hit pays out from another random algorithm that is tied to the global/HoF loot pool. So in my opinion it is just all random payouts and nothing is fixed.

Let me ask you this amd leave it at that. What about the new players that don't deposit and hit an "uber HoF"? They haven't put any peds into the system for the supposed 90% returns. Because 90% returns of 0% deposited is 0%... so I fail to see any logic in thinking we all get 90% percent returns in all EU activities.

~Danimal
 
Huskie said:
I'd say ammo + weapon decay only.

Armor and fap decay not being activities that directly yield loot should not be accounted for in hunting returns (as you could be wearing armor and fapping while mining or merely exploring, for example).

Try hunting a mob that you can do naked with overprotection and too big a fap, you'll notice that it is very clear the extra decay from the armor and the fap doesn't come back to you in loot (and yes I'm talking long-term).
Click to expand...

i agree. on mining side of things bomb/probe/finder only is part of the 90% in my opinion. drills and refining goes away.
 
danimal01 said:
Let me ask you this amd leave it at that. What about the new players that don't deposit and hit an "uber HoF"? They haven't put any peds into the system for the supposed 90% returns. Because 90% returns of 0% deposited is 0%... so I fail to see any logic in thinking we all get 90% percent returns in all EU activities.
Click to expand...
Boring question that has been asked over 200 times on these boards, and get the same boring answer every time:
90% is an statistical average. Any dumbass realises that putting in 30 ped to shoot snables hardly is enough to establish an average. I don't even understand the question, to me it just seems like trolling.

It's like if I state that a coin has a 49% chance of hitting heads and 49% to hit tails; you'll go "No way dude! I know one guy who got 8 tails in a row without cheating!".

..I just don't see the bloody point.
 
Cerberus said:
It's like if I state that a coin has a 49% chance of hitting heads and 49% to hit tails;
Click to expand...


49% + 49% = 98% - a 2% chance that the coin lands on it's rim?
 
Cerberus said:
Boring question that has been asked over 200 times on these boards, and get the same boring answer every time:
90% is an statistical average. Any dumbass realises that putting in 30 ped to shoot snables hardly is enough to establish an average. I don't even understand the question, to me it just seems like trolling.

It's like if I state that a coin has a 49% chance of hitting heads and 49% to hit tails; you'll go "No way dude! I know one guy who got 8 tails in a row without cheating!".

..I just don't see the bloody point.
Click to expand...

Doesn't that make your post trolling then, not the OP?!? :rolleyes:
Anyway I believe that it's one of the most important questions in EU but very hard to answer. My personal guess is option 5). Possibly with some of 6) included but certainly not all. I never included anyting of option 6) and with that in mind my returns of ttin VS ttout are about 90% on the very long run.
 
Cerberus said:
Boring question that has been asked over 200 times on these boards, and get the same boring answer every time:
90% is an statistical average. Any dumbass realises that putting in 30 ped to shoot snables hardly is enough to establish an average. I don't even understand the question, to me it just seems like trolling.

It's like if I state that a coin has a 49% chance of hitting heads and 49% to hit tails; you'll go "No way dude! I know one guy who got 8 tails in a row without cheating!".

..I just don't see the bloody point.
Click to expand...

its a question that gets asked alot and it will continue to be. no need to insult the guy.. and this game does change alot maybe he wanted to verify the on going opinion is still true.

kosmos
 
Cerberus said:
Boring question that has been asked over 200 times on these boards, and get the same boring answer every time:
90% is an statistical average. Any dumbass realises that putting in 30 ped to shoot snables hardly is enough to establish an average. I don't even understand the question, to me it just seems like trolling.

It's like if I state that a coin has a 49% chance of hitting heads and 49% to hit tails; you'll go "No way dude! I know one guy who got 8 tails in a row without cheating!".

..I just don't see the bloody point.
Click to expand...

how is that even considered "trolling" to me it seems like a logically thought out question. In real life you can't get 90% return from 0% there has to be an input for an output. So like I was saying how can one deduce that 90% is the standard repay rate when nothing is input? Because 90% of 0% is 0%

~Danimal
 
danimal01 said:
What about the new players that don't deposit and hit an "uber HoF"?
Click to expand...

I have reports from quite a few players that after a game changing loot, their TT returns suck bad, until practically all the TT gained from that big loot disappears.

danimal01 said:
Because 90% returns of 0% deposited is 0%... so I fail to see any logic in thinking we all get 90% percent returns in all EU activities.
Click to expand...

You are mistaking amount deposited for TT spent. There is a large difference between those two. My TT spend in 1 month is more than I've deposited in ~5 years. And currently the idea is ~90% return of TT spent.

As for the OP, I am disappointed that a guy named AxeMurderer, who's forum pic shows him holding an axe, would even consider:
1)the ammo used
an acceptable answer to his question.

However, regarding the initial question, I believe the average returns includes...



Oooh. Something shiny!

MISC21.jpg
 
JohnCapital said:
I have reports from quite a few players that after a game changing loot, their TT returns suck bad, until practically all the TT gained from that big loot disappears.



You are mistaking amount deposited for TT spent. There is a large difference between those two. My TT spend in 1 month is more than I've deposited in ~5 years. And currently the idea is ~90% return of TT spent.

As for the OP, I am disappointed that a guy named AxeMurderer, who's forum pic shows him holding an axe, would even consider:
1)the ammo used
an acceptable answer to his question.

However, regarding the initial question, I believe the average returns includes...



Oooh. Something shiny!

MISC21.jpg
Click to expand...

would you care to explain the difference between TT spent and amount deposited then? It still makes no sense to me since you can't take peds from thin air to spend. It has to come from someone that deposited so therefore my argument of 90% to 0% stems from this....

~Danimal
 
AxeMurderer said:
However, regarding the initial question, I believe the average returns includes...



Oooh. Something shiny!
Click to expand...

profilepic23115_1.gif


You rang?






Ohhhh, OK... I'll answer the question...

As long as your statistical data is consistently consistent with all of your other statistical data collected over time, then the statistically average TT return of 90% is consistently average with whatever data you consistently collect from your own data statistics.
 
Last edited:
danimal01 said:
would you care to explain the difference between TT spent and amount deposited then? It still makes no sense to me since you can't take peds from thin air to spend. It has to come from someone that deposited so therefore my argument of 90% to 0% stems from this....

~Danimal
Click to expand...

You start gathering sweat, stones and fruit, selling them to other players. You get ped. You cycle those ped.

What doesn't make sense to you?
 
danimal01 said:
would you care to explain the difference between TT spent and amount deposited then? It still makes no sense to me since you can't take peds from thin air to spend. It has to come from someone that deposited so therefore my argument of 90% to 0% stems from this....

~Danimal
Click to expand...

If you take the "typical" non-depositing sweater scenario, who do you think buys their sweat?

Correct, depositing players.

The non-depo sweater then take those shiny peds to hunt with.

They get ~90% of that hunt back and if they're smart, they'll learn about MU and how to cover their 10% loss, just like any depositing player does.

Note they get avg. 90% back of what they spend in decay doing things that result in loot, not on what they spend in MU, etc.

But, since not everyone can/does cover their losses, an inevitable amount of players deposit, and eventually those peds wind up either being played with, or used buying things from other players (depositing or not)

What's so hard to see about that?
 
hogfather said:
You start gathering sweat, stones and fruit, selling them to other players. You get ped. You cycle those ped.

What doesn't make sense to you?
Click to expand...

No, perhaps I'm not making myself clear then. The peds you get have to come from someplace weither it be from selling things to other players deposits or depositing yourself, it all comes from deposits.

Now that that is cleared up please refer back to my original question about 90% to 0% returns...

~Danimal
 
danimal01 said:
how is that even considered "trolling" to me it seems like a logically thought out question. In real life you can't get 90% return from 0% there has to be an input for an output. So like I was saying how can one deduce that 90% is the standard repay rate when nothing is input? Because 90% of 0% is 0%
Click to expand...
Trolling is about inducing negative emotions, not about making non-logical remarks.
Also, as previously stated (in this bloody thread even), standard doesn't rule out chance, and chance is particularly effective at warping results, especially in small segments.

XeroX2 said:
Doesn't that make your post trolling then, not the OP?!? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
The OP doesn't insinuate anything. Danimal on the other hand goes fists first by basically stating "lawl ur wr0ng, cus 10min PA n00bs c4n hof!!11oneeleven".
Tone of voice is important.

kosmos said:
its a question that gets asked alot and it will continue to be. no need to insult the guy.. and this game does change alot maybe he wanted to verify the on going opinion is still true.
Click to expand...
If it was just a neutral question I wouldn't had made any remarks whatsoever, and just answered it. However, load a question with insinuations, a question that is as easily answered as doing a forum search, and I'll be telling you to bugger off. An eye for an eye.
 
things that can create additional costs like lazyness, emotional acts, short sighted stupidy, experiements, explorations, favoring the more expensive (but faster) traveling, generosity, ignorance (of a mob at your heels while mining in shadow), intended uneconess and other all too human behaviour not included (which is next to impossible for human beeings) 90% on average in tt return of everything you have spent to create that tt return.
 
danimal01 said:
No, perhaps I'm not making myself clear then. The peds you get have to come from someplace weither it be from selling things to other players deposits or depositing yourself, it all comes from deposits.

Now that that is cleared up please refer back to my original question about 90% to 0% returns...

~Danimal
Click to expand...


Just to clarify m8, the 90% to 0% relation u are drawing is based on an assumption that the 100% is deposit based. The system ( according to most people) doesnt track your deposit but the amount you have spent on activities in EU.

So, the 90% is related to the amount spent and not deposited basically. The system does not care whether you deposited 10k USD or 10 USD. What it cares about is how much you spent.

Hope that clarifies.

Divinity
 
its less actually. 88% or smt. Big think is hit rate in my opinion too
 
See my Blog here.

Decay recorded there includes ALL fap/armor/travel, extractor/refiner.

There's cumulative totals for hunting, mining, crafting showing 89.1%, 91.94% and 85.31% respectively. Its possible that crafting is somewhat lower as I've used a few non-maxed bp's lately.

The overall return on markup is 89.25% over 5901.25ped tt cycled since I started the blog about a month ago.
 
Divinity said:
Just to clarify m8, the 90% to 0% relation u are drawing is based on an assumption that the 100% is deposit based. The system ( according to most people) doesnt track your deposit but the amount you have spent on activities in EU.

So, the 90% is related to the amount spent and not deposited basically. The system does not care whether you deposited 10k USD or 10 USD. What it cares about is how much you spent.

Hope that clarifies.

Divinity
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying this and not being so quick to blast or flame me for an honest question. +rep

~Danimal
 
I look at the 90% return as the costs to generate the loot. Armor and fap don't generate loot so they are not included. I'm on a total average for the last 1.5 years of 90.58%. To break down by profession:

Crafting: 83.76%
Hunting: 92.00%
Mining: 91.14%

I don't include armor and fap costs in my hunting, so that's in relation to pure offensive costs. Though my defensive costs are EASILY under 1% of my total cost, so they are rather irrelevant.

JohnCapital said:
I have reports from quite a few players that after a game changing loot, their TT returns suck bad, until practically all the TT gained from that big loot disappears.
Click to expand...

I can confirm this as well. At least, I've seen this pattern in my own records. Each time after an unusually large loot, my short term loot average declines considerably until I get back to my longer term average. This is better represented in graphical form:

loottrend.jpg


The red line represents the average for this period, which is 87.01%. I would classify loot as being about average before the big spike. After the big spike, the average drops to 61.1% until the first uptick. You can see that it's a pretty smooth downward trend too. I've also noticed that if loot gets a little too far below the red line, it comes back up. If it gets too far above, it comes back down. You can see some of that at work just in this sample section I've provided of my own loot.

As far as I'm concerned, this is strong evidence to support the idea that there is a system in place to provide a predetermined average return rate over time.
 
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