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  1. #1
    Prowler Fanan's Avatar
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    Imagine everyone have 100% TT returns, would the game survive?

    Imagine everyone having 100% returns or really close to it like 99.999%, where the Markup gained is where You profit or not.

    Some would say it's impossible and that MindArk need money to pay their staff and the servers. And yes I agree! No company in this world can act like charity but then I started to make a list of all the things where we spend our PEDs without a way of see it returning trough the same way. Here it goes:

    - Deposit fees (3.5% when depositing via CC)
    - Withdrawal fee (1%)
    - Auctions fees
    - Buy/Sell Shares fees
    - Oil consumed in all vehicles
    - Mind Essense used on Personal Teleport
    - Vehicles decay when attacked (some without even get attacked just by using them)
    - Truster decay every time we enter Space
    - Repair of vehicles
    - Cloths decay when equipped
    - Rings decay when equipped
    - Refiner decay (most of time it increase MU but that is payed by a player never by MA)
    - Pets food
    - Teleports fee (those 7 peds every time you TP from CP, FOMA, Monria, Ark Moon)
    - Pills (right they have a function but the TT is lost when taken)
    - Upgraded Items (more TT value in than out, the increased MU is payed by player)
    - Advertising Screens fee
    - Events creation fee
    - Fertilizer consumed
    - Tier upgrades (the item become better but that is translated in form of Markup payed by players)
    - Soul Bound items (on a RCE is crazy but they exist, no TT refund if you want to sell it)
    - Chipping out fee (10% of all chipped out skills are lost and they have a TT value)
    - Payn-Inc Implant Inserter decay
    - Pheromones use (Neomex cave)


    Hope I did remind of all the fees, if more they will be added.

    Summing all of these fees would the game survive giving players a 99.999% return rate if they were not so greedy? What you think? Never is enough right? Comment please.
    Last edited by Fanan; 06-23-2020 at 22:41. Reason: added 3 more
    Hunting in Calypso since: 03-Jan-2008



  2. #2
    i would say that 95 to 97% would be the most correct, but not having to cycle tons of peds.
    new players, low budget players tend to leave because they canīt reach that kind of return.

  3. #3
    Elite Sub-Zero's Avatar
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    The game wouldn't survive because everyone would die of boredom getting 3k ped "ATHs" every month. and a few globals a week. However if they make it less volatile for lower level hunting, it may actually improve player retention rate which is good for the game.

    Imo they should fix how fast you lose after you get your payback that fixes your return. Basically should not set your avatar to cursed mode until you paid it all back. I think the big problem that fucked the game's economy was several things.

    Over excessive amount of events for long periods. Atm we still got Daspeltor, Cornaterion, Robots, and now Mayhem.
    By running events for so long and since they all drop important MU like outputs and spleen it really ruins the markup. Last year outputs were 185-190% MU. today 110%?

    If they want to keep running excessive events like this they need to do the right thing for the players.

    My proposal is for them to remove important MU for event mobs that most players normally grind for when it's not event running.
    Outputs, Spleen. Those mobs that currently drop spleen should drop a lower quality oil. Outputs can be replaced for same TT amount of tier components depending on mob level.

    Then it will actually help a lot of players because people can hunt for MU both from event mobs and non event mobs still.

    Ideally MA should give a period of at least 1 month between events also and never run them simultaneously.

    It would probably be good for economy if Exp 3, 4 used something like liver oil else instead of nanocubes.

    The key is to improve the MU not the return of all players. They have good balance already when it comes to efficiency and looter skills vs return.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanan View Post
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    Imagine everyone having 100% returns or really close to it like 99.999%, where the Markup gained is where You profit or not.
    You mean exactly how it works right now, but with very little volatility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanan View Post
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    Summing all of these fees would the game survive giving players a 99.999% return rate if they were not so greedy? What you think? Never is enough right? Comment please.
    I find it very unlikely that people would keep playing with no volatility, and if nothing else it would be very hard to get new players to start. So the game would die eventually. I suppose.

    But less volatility == no gamblers == less players == less market flow == less MU == less money to be made == less players and so on. So even if MA probably could survive short term, EU would likely die and MA with it, eventually

  5. #5
    Old Alpha Darth Revan's Avatar
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    I don't think there is really any point in a thread like this. MA are not going to change their business model on returns to give near 100% return no matter how many polls/petitions, etc would be done by the playerbase.

    The only way they would change to this sort of thing would be a last ditch effort if most of the playerbase gave up and left. Then it would be a quick money grab and then server shut down.

    We also don't know which (if any) of those 'fees' are returned to the loot pool in any way. We can assume that most are not from a business stand point, but you can't 100% for sure know unless you have seen the code of the game.

  6. #6
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    The current loot distribution you're seeing is what this game needs to survive. You can get fancy with numbers, sure, give everyone 100% tt return. However, MindArk is going to find a way to take the same amount they're taking from the playerbase with the new changes as they are now. Why wouldn't they? They've got a company to run and a lot of expenses to keep everything running.

    All this 100% tt return change would do is flatten loot for everyone, and likely demotivate a lot of people. There might be more negative consequences than positive ones if a change like this were implemented. You'd discover new fees, new decay, new areas where players bleed PED, and likely not be able to identify all of the areas, and forbid the rake might even get higher.

    At the end of the day, MindArk has a lot of fixed costs. And it's not possible to give more to the players without positive change/growth of the company, or them figuring new ways to cut costs. They rely on us, we rely on them. They have to make $, and we won't pay them $ unless we're being entertained or enjoying their product.

    The quickest way to improve loot for everyone is to increase your deposit, increase your cycle, and increase your spending. This is just like the real world. This game goes round and round by people spending money. If you're not interested in doing that, that's OK, I'm not here to bad mouth non depositors. I'm just noticing you want to improve loot for everyone, and my suggestion is do your best to help bring in new players. Game growth is the fastest way we can increase loot value and item value for everyone.

    Props to all of the Twitch streamers who actively promote this game and spend their time and money answering questions, explaining things and getting people interested. Props to all the YouTube channels that do the same. That kind of stuff is incredible for the community, and helpful overall, we all benefit from that kind of content.

    Everything has a cost. Giving everyone 100% tt returns is going to come with a lot of visible, and hidden costs, its not something I would be in favor of.

  7. #7
    Prowler Fanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferial View Post
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    You mean exactly how it works right now, but with very little volatility?
    The 99.999% return rates would be in the long run like it happens at the moment, not every kill/drop of course.

    You could have days with 90% tt returns and next day have 110% tt returns, it would be on the long run otherwise the ATHs would be over. The return rate fluctuates or it would be a really boring game but the tendency would be for 100% tt return.

    Quote Originally Posted by MsPudding View Post
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    ...
    Everything has a cost. Giving everyone 100% tt returns is going to come with a lot of visible, and hidden costs, its not something I would be in favor of.
    But those hidden costs already exist, that's why I made this list and I'm sure that I'm missing some.
    Hunting in Calypso since: 03-Jan-2008



  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-Zero View Post
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    The game wouldn't survive because everyone would die of boredom getting 3k ped "ATHs" every month. and a few globals a week. However if they make it less volatile for lower level hunting, it may actually improve player retention rate which is good for the game.
    pretty sure there's a lot more people currently quitting over a lot of 60-80% TT-return runs with a 5-digit every couple years than there would be people quitting because of 90% TT-return runs with a monthly 4-digit hof...

    MsPudding
    The current loot distribution you're seeing is what this game needs to survive. You can get fancy with numbers, sure, give everyone 100% tt return. However, MindArk is going to find a way to take the same amount they're taking from the playerbase with the new changes as they are now. Why wouldn't they? They've got a company to run and a lot of expenses to keep everything running.
    then MA would just make a lot more money through auction fees etc. as there's alot more traffic going on in the game.... the 30-40% MA may currently take in the bad runs would then simply be spend on something else...
    the payback hof is a lie

  9. #9
    Elite BlackHawk's Avatar
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    MA is a company. They are in business to make money. As much as they can from whatever they can. You want them to make money from pie in the sky. The system they have works rather well. They will not change it too much, simply because of the old saying. If something works, don't fix it. From their perspective, things are working just fine. They have the numbers to know when or if they need to make a change.

    I do not believe MA makes profit, as a company, from decay, as it makes profit from deposits and interest they get on your deposit. From what I've seen in financial reports - and I may not be that smart to understand it all- all deposits are counted as income. The income is not the decay inside the game in accounting papers. Withdrawals are expenses. You have no contract to get 90% back or 100% back or even 10% back on any specific activity.

    The game design for MA to be successful is to make all people lose as much as possible in whatever way possible to reduce expenses and after all that, make people feel like they can still get it back somehow. For this reason, whatever you do, you will lose in TT in EU. It is a matter of time. How much time... I think it is not a game design problem, but an accounting problem. If they need to have 90% of players have 40% returns for 2 days... they can. You may get some bit hof once in a while... some items with markup... or you may not. The first part of the goal is to get your money. The second part is to make you give more money. The first part is the important part. The second part... it may not be even needed. People may just deposit even when they lose like crazy. They have the data to know how this behavior works in detail.
    When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. Is just hard on the others.
    Same when you're stupid.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawk View Post
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    MA is a company. They are in business to make money.
    has anyone here claimed MA wouldn't be a company which wants to make money?

    take less money =/= take no money
    the payback hof is a lie

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