Become a citizen of Planet Calypso!

millstreet2 said:

To clarify, does this mean that of the 100% fees collected,

MA (all planets together) gross revenue 55.9M SEK

we get 25%

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Why would you base math off of gross revenue of all planets together?

These are Calypso deeds, based off Calypso Gross revenue...

Sircus said:

Yes, you dont understand what its written in the quote. Kim's development Team = PP/FPC

There is 100% GR to share.
Current share system before deeds are 50% MA and 50% PP(FPC).
Our cut comes from the 50% PP revenue. WE GET HALF OF THE PP GR. Thats 25% of the 100% GR to share but a 50% cut of the PP´s share.

Therefore if you arent using the Total GR you cant use 0.25 multiplier. You need to use the 0.5 multiplier if you are working from the PP´s numbers.

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Good post. Hope that clarifies it for everyone.

Chrome said:

Why would you base math off of gross revenue of all planets together?

These are Calypso deeds, based off Calypso Gross revenue...

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The Planet Partner Revenue paid to Planet Calypso (AR Universe AB) will be divided equally: 50% paid to Land Lot deedholders and the remaining 50% to cover the ongoing development, marketing and operating costs of Planet Calypso.

You took the 22SK number and went 25% of that, you should have done 50%. That is where the difference in math is comming from after another review.

millstreet2 said:

The Planet Partner Revenue paid to Planet Calypso (AR Universe AB) will be divided equally: 50% paid to Land Lot deedholders and the remaining 50% to cover the ongoing development, marketing and operating costs of Planet Calypso.

You took the 22SK number and went 25% of that, you should have done 50%. That is where the difference in math is comming from after another review.

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I specifically gave official quotes to back up my numbers...

Calypso (or any other planet) makes "X" amount of gross revenue, refered to as Planet Partner Gross Revenue, or PPGR.

MindArk obviously wants their share of what a planet makes (including Calypso), this is confirmed by David Dobson CEO Arkadia. It makes sense, like a franchise... so MA gets a certain % of the PPGR, and the PP gets the rest.

Of the PPGR paid to Planet Calypso (ie the PP share of the gross revenue of the planet, NOT the total PPGR), deed holders get 50%.

That pretty much matches up to the numbers confirmed by Bjorn.

...of the 100% fees collected, 50% goes to Mindark, 25% to the Deed Holders, and 25% for Mindark to cover ongoing development

Chrome said:

...of the 100% fees collected, 50% goes to Mindark, 25% to the Deed Holders, and 25% for Mindark to cover ongoing development

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Of the 100% fees collected, they never mentioned anything to do with PP. They already did the 50% cut to PP within that projection.

With your analysis you add in another PP cut (50%) to get to the number you end up with as its been explained before a few minutes ago.

Not trying to argue, I just think you need to take a step back and relook at the numbers. I think you may have easily overlooked a multiplier in your math. Not a big deal, happens to everyone. The wording from MA can be sometimes confusing. They are a swedish company wording things in english. Mistakes happen.

millstreet2 said:

Of the 100% fees collected, they never mentioned anything to do with PP. They already did the 50% cut to PP within that projection.

With your analysis you add in another PP cut (50%) to get to the number you end up with as its been explained before a few minutes ago.

Not trying to argue, I just think you need to take a step back and relook at the numbers.

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I know you're not trying to argue. It is good discussion. I have looked at the numbers... several times.
If I have my numbers incorrect, you'll all be thrilled when the ROI starts rolling in.

If my numbers are correct, well...




The more I think about it, I don't even know why I'm bothering.

Ultimately, deed holders will get paid whatever MA wants to pay them. Good luck.

What a lot of crap going on here again...

The math is simple, the only real question is this:

MA (all planets together) gross revenue 55.9M SEK
FPCs share 22.5M SEK

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Is the number provided for "FPCs share" the calypso total (MA + FPC = 100%) or is it already the PP share only (FPC = 50%)

As i see it, the calypso total is 2*22.5M = 45M (means the number given is already the PP share), which would leave a measly 10.9M SEK for all the other planets.


If my assumption is true, we have 2* what Chrome has calculated here:

Chrome said:

$829,284 / 60,000 shares = $13.82 USD

On a $100 deed "investment", that is a 13.82% ROI

Interesting how the calculated ROI is 1/2 of what has been stated as expected.

Click to expand...

2*13.82% = 27.64 % which matches the numbers provided by MA.


Could we now stop this silly discussion? Time will tell, buy your shares before dec. 5th and you're on the safe side - even 13% is not the worst ROI there is...

Chrome said:

The more I think about it, I don't even know why I'm bothering.

Ultimately, deed holders will get paid whatever MA wants to pay them. Good luck.

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Well, thats it

In a way we got a problem because MA says ...

Planet Calypso introduces a groundbreaking Citizenship System that includes Land Lot Deeds with an expected annual return on investment of up to 30%.

As you can see "up to 30%" so it can be 1% or nothing, and i want for MA to be able to explain to us from which part of the money they receive is based these "up to 30%".

@Chrome:

hehe, "real math" made me chuckle... plus rep for that, since i just discovered the rep system.

But seriously: well, i guess Bjorns answer of "correct" can be confusing but i just assumed what Bjorn meant was the following:

100% of "everything"(*) is collected by Mindark, then 50% are beeing kept and the remaining 50% are shared between the Planet Partners.(**) And of the share that FPC recieves, 50% go to the deed holders.
It is a lot easier to understand (especially Bjorns post) when thinking this way.

We can't do it your way(the 25% thing) because then we would have to know how to deduce the contribution of FPC from the 55.9M SEK gross revenue of Mindark, wich we can not since those formulas are secret.

If you choose to look at it the way you did in your post, you can not directly use the numbers provided in the annual report because the 22.M SEK are not the revenue that Calypso(FPC) generated but what they actually got from MA.
Here some "informal proof"

55.9M SEK Gross revenue of Mindark
22.5M SEK FPCs share

If 22.5M SEK would in fact be what FPC generated then only 11.25M SEK would go to MA so: 11.25/55.9=20.125%.

That would mean that FPC generated only 20.125% of Mindarks revenue and clearly that can not be the case. thus FPCs share means what part of the total revenue generated "goes to" FPC. (***)

Someone also did the calculation using entropia tracker to have rough estimate of what part of decay is produced on Calypso and came up with something like 85% if i remeber correctly. And then took that number multiplied it with 55.9M SEK to have Calypsos contribution to the gross revenue. Then he took half of that away for MA and then devided the remaining by 2 to get the share that the land deed owners would recieve. With this approach he also got a ROI of roughly 27%. This for me was further proof that i was in fact thinking the right thing.

I hope i helped you with this and didn't confuse anyone else

Regards
Thark

(*) We don't know what exactly contributes to gross revenue and will probably never know. All we know is that decay does count but not necessarily ALL of it. And with everything i mean everything in all of Entropia Universe, including planets, fees etc. just everything Mindark makes money with.

(**) Thats another part we will probably never know exactly. The division formula, I mean.

(***)I know someone actually postet part of the report and it was in swedish maybe that guy could post it again? I don't speak swedish but that guy translated the swedish. I then again might have changed the words he used because i didn't search for his post before writing. So i just used the word "share". I bet if you read the actual report you will see what i mean.

Still unclear if the estates the estate broker holds or will hold in the future as new areas are created will be a part of gross revenue... https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/2581976-post1.html

If they create a new Treasure Island, CP, CND, Medusa Head and 50% of the auction fee goes to the deed holders, that'd be quite a bit on the week after those sales I'd suspect. Same if new malls are thrown in, banks, etc.

mastermesh said:

If they create a new Treasure Island, CP, CND, Medusa Head and 50% of the auction fee goes to the deed holders, that'd be quite a bit on the week after those sales I'd suspect. Same if new malls are thrown in, banks, etc.

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The auction fees goe to the loot pool, Marco was very clear about that.

The sales of stuff like malls and new LAs and such could as well be used to boost the loot pool or to pay for the promotional noob aths - there is no single evidence that things like these are going to be part of the PP revenue.

Chrome said:

Why would you base math off of gross revenue of all planets together?

These are Calypso deeds, based off Calypso Gross revenue...

Click to expand...

you have taken into consideration the numbers being used are for 2010, before Arkadia and with NI/Rocktropia only taking a inty fraction of the revenue? maybe those taking the total are incorrect to do so, but only by about 10% or so. Add to this that we know from the 2011 H1 results things are alot better with higher sales and much lower costs. so dont double count the cut to MA, as you have in your "post with real math". its wrong, otherwise explain where to you get the 22.5m number from for FPC share.

valentin said:

In a way we got a problem because MA says ...

Planet Calypso introduces a groundbreaking Citizenship System that includes Land Lot Deeds with an expected annual return on investment of up to 30%.

As you can see "up to 30%" so it can be 1% or nothing, and i want for MA to be able to explain to us from which part of the money they receive is based these "up to 30%".

Click to expand...

It is incorrect to say ROI of upto 30% because it can be higher, much higher, it can also be lower it all depends on how well Calypso performs. The better it's returns the better your returns.

mastermesh said:

Still unclear if the estates the estate broker holds or will hold in the future as new areas are created will be a part of gross revenue... https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forum/2581976-post1.html

If they create a new Treasure Island, CP, CND, Medusa Head and 50% of the auction fee goes to the deed holders, that'd be quite a bit on the week after those sales I'd suspect. Same if new malls are thrown in, banks, etc.

Click to expand...

wizzszz said:

The auction fees goe to the loot pool, Marco was very clear about that.

The sales of stuff like malls and new LAs and such could as well be used to boost the loot pool or to pay for the promotional noob aths - there is no single evidence that things like these are going to be part of the PP revenue.

Click to expand...

An official word on this would be welcome. I think we have to take whatever Marco said with a pinch of salt, in fact lots of salt

aridash said:

...where to you get the 22.5m number from for FPC share.

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Simple, I got the 22.5m FPC share from the post before mine.

Chrome said:

I know you're not trying to argue. It is good discussion. I have looked at the numbers... several times.
If I have my numbers incorrect, you'll all be thrilled when the ROI starts rolling in.

If my numbers are correct, well...


The more I think about it, I don't even know why I'm bothering.

Ultimately, deed holders will get paid whatever MA wants to pay them. Good luck.

Click to expand...

Hey, that's the same math I did.... So I am not the only "stupid" one here.
Anyway, Chrome don't fall for their trolling, we will see on 5 Dec what we will get from MA. You and I could be wrong about that 13-15% ROI, they could be wrong on their 27%
Although I do hope they are right, because I will benefit greatly from that 27%

Chrome said:

Ultimately, deed holders will get paid whatever MA wants to pay them. Good luck.

Click to expand...

ow and that... that is so true


In EITHER cases, our calculations are based on an average yearly ROI...
If we study the numbers on the EU tracker, we will notice the activity in the game was quite low in the past 6 months; add to that the fact that everyone is cutting on spending just to get money for the deeds, we will probably witness the lowest profit MA has had in past years for that week. Hence, the ROI figure on 5 Dec will pretty much be useless

PPS: don't forget summer and holidays will have extremely low return rates, LG/MM/WOF will have very high ones !

Thark said:

55.9M SEK Gross revenue of Mindark
22.5M SEK FPCs share

If 22.5M SEK would in fact be what FPC generated then only 11.25M SEK would go to MA so: 11.25/55.9=20.125%.

That would mean that FPC generated only 20.125% of Mindarks revenue and clearly that can not be the case. thus FPCs share means what part of the total revenue generated "goes to" FPC. (***)

Someone also did the calculation using entropia tracker to have rough estimate of what part of decay is produced on Calypso and came up with something like 85% if i remeber correctly. And then took that number multiplied it with 55.9M SEK to have Calypsos contribution to the gross revenue. Then he took half of that away for MA and then devided the remaining by 2 to get the share that the land deed owners would recieve. With this approach he also got a ROI of roughly 27%. This for me was further proof that i was in fact thinking the right thing.

I hope i helped you with this and didn't confuse anyone else

(***)I know someone actually postet part of the report and it was in swedish maybe that guy could post it again? I don't speak swedish but that guy translated the swedish. I then again might have changed the words he used because i didn't search for his post before writing. So i just used the word "share". I bet if you read the actual report you will see what i mean.

Click to expand...

We know entire MA revenue was 59.9 M
We know 22.5 M was distributed from MA to the planet partner as the Calypso planet partner cut.
Based on that this is how I understand the breakdown of how the total 59.9 M in revenue would have been distributed in 2010 with the deed holder setup:

14.90M Income from other planets than Calypso for MA and other planet partners. (24.9% of total revenue)

22.50M: MA income from Calypso. (37,6% of total revenue)
11.25M: PP income from Calypso: Maintenance of Calypso by Kim and his team (18,8% of total revenue)
11.25M: PP income from Calypso: Calypso deed payout. (18,8% of total revenue)
====
59.90M for the year 2010.

wizzszz said:

The auction fees goe to the loot pool, Marco was very clear about that.

The sales of stuff like malls and new LAs and such could as well be used to boost the loot pool or to pay for the promotional noob aths - there is no single evidence that things like these are going to be part of the PP revenue.

Click to expand...

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...fee-question&p=2676474&viewfull=1#post2676474
Even though the affiliate site's been gone a while, I still think what it said probably was more factual than what Marco had said prior to that time since it existed when it did, which was after Marco's statement...

How does it work ?
So, how does an affiliate program look like on a game concept that's basically free, with no download fee or monthly subscription fees ? How does the operator actually earn money ?

Each tool, weapon, clothes, basically everything a player can utilize has a specific basic value. This base decreases by a certain preset amount every time an object is used until it reaches almost zero value and has to be "repaired".

The correlating amount of the in-game currency PED and therefor 10:1 US-Dollars of what the item decays gets distributed 50:50 between Mindark PE AB as operator of the Entropia Universe and the planet partner where the participant has the account registered and pursuing its activities, in our case First Planet Company and Planet Calypso.

Another source of income are fees and commissions attached to the in-game auction and player's shops. Every sale on the auction and shops produces a sales commission that also gets shared 50:50 between Mindark and the Planet Partner.

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and as far as the taxes go...

As an owner of a shop and booth in Omegaton, I wonder where taxes on my shops are going. Normal LAs and Malls have participant owners that collect the Taxes. Omegaton, Genesis, and Sakura seem to have no LA owner or main estate terminal for the entire LA. Therefore, I'd like to know, where the heck are taxes collected from shops in Sakura, Genesis, and Omegaton going? If it's going back in to the loot pool, is there any way you can prove it? If it's going to Mind Ark or FPC, why? It seems a bit like taxation without any form of representation since there's no LA owner to talk to like there is with other shops on other LAs, malls, etc. If you can collect the taxes together, similar to the way ammo is collected in events to give to the winner of an event as a prize, maybe you can do similar with shop owners in game or maybe collect it for something for estate owners in the cities to vote on how it will be utilized in a voting booth or something, making the community stronger?

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Hi,

Thank you for your patience regarding this issue. Please accept my apology for the delayed reply.

I have been informed that in such cases MindArk and / or Planet Calypso are the owners in such cases and therefore receive the tax fees.

Kind regards,

Leslie | Planet Calypso Support

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Is it and or it is or is not clear yet. My guess is that it's 50/50 just like the auction fee.

Chrome said:

Simple, I got the 22.5m FPC share from the post before mine.

Click to expand...

so you accept the 22.5m number as FPC share of total revenue but then go on to say the rest of the numebrs are wrong? seems to me one has to challenge or accept this figure and start from there. if one accepts it, which has accounted for MA share of total planet revenue, then deeds have 50% of this FPC share.

I went through the annual report and i think i found the the passage, that the guy i mentioned in my rather lenghty last post, quoted: (not sure though, but the numbers are in it xD)

Resultatutveckling och eget kapital i moderbolaget
Den ekonomiska utvecklingen har under året varit fortsatt svag bland annat beroende på
förseningar i utvecklings- och konverteringsarbetet samt att någon aktiv marknadsföring inte
genomförts.
Nettointäkterna exklusive internfakturering mot koncernbolag uppgick till 59,9 miljoner kronor
(förra året 65,9 miljoner kronor). Av de totala intäkterna har 22,5 miljoner kronor (förra året 21,3
miljoner kronor) tillförts First Planet Company som numera går under namnet AR Universe
enligt avtal om vinstdelning.
Operativa kostnader uppgick till 52,7 miljoner kronor (förra året 53,4 miljoner kronor).
Rörelseresultatet före avskrivningar och nedlagda kostnader i projekt MindBank (EBITDA)
uppgår till minus 11,2 miljoner kronor (förra året 12,8 miljoner kronor inkl. aktiverat arbete för
egen räkning).
Efter nedlagda kostnader för projekt MindBank och finansnetto uppgår resultatet före
bokslutsdispositioner och skatt till minus 25,6 miljoner kronor (förra året minus 3,1 miljoner
kronor).
Moderbolagets egna kapital uppgår vid årsskiftet till 49,3 miljoner kronor (förra året 54,9 miljoner
kronor).

Link: http://www.mindark.com/investor-rel.../documents/arsredovisning2010_inkl_vdbrev.pdf

If anyone can read this or the link and post what it means, maybe Chrome would be happy

Thark

PS: google translater gave me sh** when translating it to german xD

aridash said:

so you accept the 22.5m number as FPC share of total revenue but then go on to say the rest of the numebrs are wrong? seems to me one has to challenge or accept this figure and start from there. if one accepts it, which has accounted for MA share of total planet revenue, then deeds have 50% of this FPC share.

Click to expand...

I did accept the number 22.5M and started my math from there.

I read it as 22.5M is the total FPC Gross Revenue (share, or PORTION) of the Total MA Gross Revenue of 55.9M, not that 22.5M is the FPC share (between FPC and MA) of FPC Gross Revenue of 44.5M.

Wizz and Thark have already pointed this discrepancy out.

I was simply basing my calculations on the numbers given, and the quoted info in my previous posts. We can start doing this all over again when the first deed dividend is paid in a few weeks, mkay?

Thark said:

If anyone can read this or the link and post what it means, maybe Chrome would be happy

Thark

PS: google translater gave me sh** when translating it to german xD

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Translated with google and then edited by me to fix obvious errors:

Financial performance and equity of the parent company

Economic development during the year remained weak, partly because of delays in development and conversion work and because no active marketing has been done.

Net Income excluding inter-billing against Group companies amounted to 59.9 million (last year 65.9 million). Of the total revenue, 22.5 million SEK (previous year 21.3 M) was transferred to the First Planet Company, now known as the AR Universe according to a contract of profit sharing.

Operating expenses amounted to 52.7 million SEK (previous year 53.4 million SEK).
Operating profit before depreciation and costs incurred in project Mind bank (EBITDA) amounted to minus 11.2 million SEK (previous year 12.8 million SEK incl. capitalized work).

After the costs incurred for the project Mind bank and financial items, profit before appropriations and taxes amounted to minus SEK 25.6 million SEK (previous year minus 3.1 million SEK).

The parent company's equity at year end amounted to 49.3 million SEK (previous year 54.9 million SEK).

See above. Duplicated translation.

cool thanks, I probably should have translated it to english and not german. the german was terrible.

I'm off drinking now, so good night.

Caramon said:

Net Income excluding inter-billing against Group companies amounted to 59.9 million (last year 65.9 million). Of the total revenue, 22.5 million SEK (previous year 21.3 M) was transferred to the First Planet Company, now known as the AR Universe according to a contract of profit sharing.

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Excellent, I'm happy.

Significantly more conscise explanation than the assumption I previously made about the stated numbers, let's all hope your expected 27% ROI on deeds comes rolling in like a Tsunami.

This topic has EXPLODED with many forum posts asking pretty much the same thing over and over.. why don't people just read the release notes carefully?


~Danimal

danimal01 said:

This topic has EXPLODED with many forum posts asking pretty much the same thing over and over.. why don't people just read the release notes carefully?


~Danimal

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Please, I must repeat, please do not point out the obvious in this forum people can just not comprehend.

Shall be interesting to see what happens to the shares that aren't sold
after that first dividend has come.
I guess it gonna get a little boost again, but then calm down.
I got some split feelings about it thou', since I do want to be able to
buy at max 1k in future too, but at the same time, I do understand MAs
need to have all of them sold...

Joat said:

Shall be interesting to see what happens to the shares that aren't sold
after that first dividend has come.
I guess it gonna get a little boost again, but then calm down.
I got some split feelings about it thou', since I do want to be able to
buy at max 1k in future too, but at the same time, I do understand MAs
need to have all of them sold...

Click to expand...

The current deed holder would get the "dividens" that are paid out as stated in the release notes. So this would mean that the MA avatar would see a boost in peds on his ped card. They would still sell for 1k a piece though since MA said they will continue to sell all of them for 1k a piece till they are all sold. Now what happens after that is all player based and adjusted as such. I highly doubt there are enough people in all of Calypso to purchase $6 million dollars worth of deeds.

~Danimal

Joat said:

Shall be interesting to see what happens to the shares that aren't sold
after that first dividend has come.
I guess it gonna get a little boost again, but then calm down.
I got some split feelings about it thou', since I do want to be able to
buy at max 1k in future too, but at the same time, I do understand MAs
need to have all of them sold...

Click to expand...

what MA should do... put them up after the first payout with 1k as start bid instead of as buyout and just leave buyout unspecified. Get em now before that potentially happens.

Really tempted to do another massive TT selloff, but really don't want to tt the duchev logs and paintings, etc., so probably will stick with my measly one deed for now. If someone wants to buy some maniquin pads in exchange for a deed, give me a shout out and we can talk. Til then, I'm on hold for buying more til I deposit again, which likely, as things are now, won't be til after New Years sometime.

If anyone else is thinking about TTing to raise the peds to buy, use treeview and excel or open office to help you figure out what to toss in to the tt.