0% Loot Return

[e-lite]

Hey ya’ll! First of all, this is not a loot rant. I am somewhat happy as it is. I just want to branch off the discussion “90% Loot Return” and plant a little seed to see what grows.

So, from plenty of logs and tests the community have done, most of us (yes, I know, not all) have agreed to that the average TT loot return is around 90% over time. But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet.

90% return per hunt over XX time and cycled ammo. Let’s say this is true. So you decide that you will make only one last cash deposit into EU ever, just a one-time chunk of lets say 1000 ped (Amount not so important, just making a point). You go all in and spend the full amount on a hunt and get 900 ped (90%) in return (Only taking TT value in consideration). You cycle this 900 ped and next time you’re back with 810 ped TT, next time 729 and the next 656… Well, and so on, you get where I am going with this. So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?

Yeah I realize that I leave out a lot of parameters such as skill gain that you can chip out and sell, the possibility to hit a big HoF or loot some rare items, but let’s keep this to the “average Joe” scenario. Thoughts on this?

 

[e-lite]

I kind of realized that this post sounded like I am negative towards EU, but I am really not. The “Return” for me is entertainment and fun, which I am prepared to pay some sort of “fee” for.

 

[.Stagger]

it's practically 90% return..
but you can see it as a 0% return if you never deposit anymore.

Thou the chance to make loss in this universe is far higher than profit.
only the smart ones manage to survive.
not only do you have to be smart, but very persistant and you need to have faith in yourself.

EU could do with a fun free-to-play system.
imo it may have nothing to do with all the current professions.
IF MA can figure out some free professions who are actually fun to do,
they won't even have to make peds for people, neither make em spend.. and EU will have far more "players", who are tempted to go do a profession which actually does cost money.

 

[girtsn]

According to my experience, if you don't have competitive advantage or luck or whatever, yes you will lose it in notime.

 

[SuperKanjo]

Hehe, interesting approach you have here, never thougt about it this way.

There is a differrence between;

10 hunts each 90% return
or
10 hunts with overall 90% return

But ....... if we name it like this..... the return on peds spend is 90%, so if you spend the same peds more times (cycling the peds) you lose the 10% every cycle.

 

[e-lite]

it's practically 90% return..
but you can see it as a 0% return if you never deposit anymore.

Thou the chance to make loss in this universe is far higher than profit.
only the smart ones manage to survive.
not only do you have to be smart, but very persistant and you need to have faith in yourself.

EU could do with a fun free-to-play system.
imo it may have nothing to do with all the current professions.
IF MA can figure out some free professions who are actually fun to do,
they won't even have to make peds for people, neither make em spend.. and EU will have far more "players", who are tempted to go do a profession which actually does cost money.

I'm not in your fan club Stagger, but I really like your thoughts on free and fun professions. It wouldn't hurt the economy and yes, it would most likely attract more people to EU. +Rep on that one Sir.

 

[whiteknut]

Hey ya’ll! First of all, this is not a loot rant. I am somewhat happy as it is. I just want to branch off the discussion “90% Loot Return” and plant a little seed to see what grows.

So, from plenty of logs and tests the community have done, most of us (yes, I know, not all) have agreed to that the average TT loot return is around 90% over time. But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet.

90% return per hunt over XX time and cycled ammo. Let’s say this is true. So you decide that you will make only one last cash deposit into EU ever, just a one-time chunk of lets say 1000 ped (Amount not so important, just making a point). You go all in and spend the full amount on a hunt and get 900 ped (90%) in return (Only taking TT value in consideration). You cycle this 900 ped and next time you’re back with 810 ped TT, next time 729 and the next 656… Well, and so on, you get where I am going with this. So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?

Yeah I realize that I leave out a lot of parameters such as skill gain that you can chip out and sell, the possibility to hit a big HoF or loot some rare items, but let’s keep this to the “average Joe” scenario. Thoughts on this?

hmm what is the question? Cause we all know if you keep giving 10% of your peds away you will run out of money very fast. Look at it as you did one 10k ped run and return was 9k. Why? Because you decided to use this 90%and give away another 10% and in the end you have hunted for 1000+900+820+... =peds. And return was 90% not 0%.

 

[SunnyS]

Hey ya’ll! First of all, this is not a loot rant. I am somewhat happy as it is. I just want to branch off the discussion “90% Loot Return” and plant a little seed to see what grows.

So, from plenty of logs and tests the community have done, most of us (yes, I know, not all) have agreed to that the average TT loot return is around 90% over time. But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet.

90% return per hunt over XX time and cycled ammo. Let’s say this is true. So you decide that you will make only one last cash deposit into EU ever, just a one-time chunk of lets say 1000 ped (Amount not so important, just making a point). You go all in and spend the full amount on a hunt and get 900 ped (90%) in return (Only taking TT value in consideration). You cycle this 900 ped and next time you’re back with 810 ped TT, next time 729 and the next 656… Well, and so on, you get where I am going with this. So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?

Yeah I realize that I leave out a lot of parameters such as skill gain that you can chip out and sell, the possibility to hit a big HoF or loot some rare items, but let’s keep this to the “average Joe” scenario. Thoughts on this?

BINGO!!!! ...couldn't have put it better myself... If it was really 90% return over time... My avatar would have in the vicinity of 140k USD ... But NO... I am still naked with skills that will sell for 100bucks in the current market lol

 

[TACUTTING]

When reading that some hunters hunt 16 hours a day , Ma would go out off bussines very fast if payback wasnt 90% ,its dynamic !!! lol

and true 90 % back everytime is 0 % in the end , Grind and Whine . Seen it too often at this forum

not high school math this 90 % really , its Mas way to control the ped flow


You pay for your hofs , decay this and decay that all adds up in the end

 

[steffel]

90% return per hunt over XX time and cycled ammo. [...] Well, and so on, you get where I am going with this. So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?

gratz, you discovered that 0.90^n approaches 0; would've described it with limes if i remembered the syntax to write it . loot return can be 90% while cash balance/deposits is 0%, that's not new and both claims can be correct same time.

 

[e-lite]

gratz, you discovered that 0.90^n approaches 0; would've described it with limes if i remembered the syntax to write it . loot return can be 90% while cash balance/deposits is 0%, that's not new and both claims can be correct same time.

Yeah I know it's simple and obvious, that is why I am surprised it's not mentioned in any of the "loot returns" threads!

 

[hoolioz]

I`m oversimplifying but usually my best hope is, that with 100 peds I should be able to cycle 1k, before ending up with empty ped card.

 

[Falagor]

Yeah I know it's simple and obvious, that is why I am surprised it's not mentioned in any of the "loot returns" threads!

Imho it is more than obvious that each 90% loot theory means 90% returns over one cycle... and long term 90% means 90% of TT cycled...

Falagor

 

[StrongMinded]

The biggest problem imo is that you can have several runs with less then 90% return before getting the 90% and that ofcourse will take a big chunk out of the original final deposit. Every hunt is a gamble, will you get markup items, a global, hof or will you come back with 40% return and a broken gun (if you use L items) and don´t have enough peds to cycle to find that 90% return run.

 

[Art Jennifer]

Well i'd need 200% return in order to withdraw.

as i want to spend my orignial amount thats why i put it in..

 

[Jennson]

Yeah I know it's simple and obvious, that is why I am surprised it's not mentioned in any of the "loot returns" threads!

It is so obvoius, that i cannot imagine there are people who think when they make a one time depo of 1k they can play forever on a budget of 900 ped. Ofc every return rate below 100% goes towards zero in the long term ( TT only ofc ). Every return rate above 100% would go towards infinity towards an infinite amount of time.

 

[Terminator]

The hunting loot return (as implemented by MA) is 100% and I will prove it in few weeks after I have finished collecting all data and prepared a nice post with all references.

 

[girtsn]

In fact when you're forgetting that you will gain skills in the process. So in effect you will have bought some skills for the 1k peds. It might be cheaper to just buy the skills in auction, but thats what it is.

 

[Sub-Zero]

There is a 100% working system on how to always get 100% profit in hunting.
Become a trader. Never go below your ped "limit" anything above your limit is "free" to spend as you want and how you want. So basically you will always get profit .

 

[StrongMinded]

There is a 100% working system on how to always get 100% profit in hunting.
Become a trader. Never go below your ped "limit" anything above your limit is "free" to spend as you want and how you want. So basically you will always get profit .

I think you mean profit in trading? Trading has nothing to do with hunting unless you mean hunt and sell for markup?

 

[Sub-Zero]

I think you mean profit in trading? Trading has nothing to do with hunting unless you mean hunt and sell for markup?

Let's say you are a trader and a hunter. You always save at least X peds left on your ped card. Once your ped card goes above that X peds. You use those peds for hunting. Those X peds are purely profit so you always "profit" with hunting with those extra X peds. The loot and skills are just bonus

 

[mrproper]

There are some exceptions to your scenario...

Some miners logged easy to mine areas with good minerals in them, total markup per 1000 ped run exceeds 111%, thus they are instead profiting every run. Loot return is thus ∞. Quite frequently.

Some hunters have access to mobs with cool loot items that have huge markups (200%+). Total markup per 1000 ped run exceeds 111%, thus they are instead profiting every run. Loot return is thus ∞. Most of the time.

Some crafters have access to high end BPs and high skills so they can create expensive items and collect markup on them to cover the small 95% markup return on residue from minerals (example Iron 105%, residue 110%). Very rarely such conditions apply.

 

[e-lite]

There are some exceptions to your scenario...

Some miners logged easy to mine areas with good minerals in them, total markup per 1000 ped run exceeds 111%, thus they are instead profiting every run. Loot return is thus ∞. Quite frequently.

Some hunters have access to mobs with cool loot items that have huge markups (200%+). Total markup per 1000 ped run exceeds 111%, thus they are instead profiting every run. Loot return is thus ∞. Most of the time.

Some crafters have access to high end BPs and high skills so they can create expensive items and collect markup on them to cover the small 95% markup return on residue from minerals (example Iron 105%, residue 110%). Very rarely such conditions apply.

But, as you can read in my first post, we are targeting "Average Joe" here. I intentionally left out the exclusive few that constantly profit because they have gear and skill wise reached a point where this is possible and well deserved.

 

[mrproper]

But, as you can read in my first post, we are targeting "Average Joe" here. I intentionally left out the exclusive few that constantly profit because they have gear and skill wise reached a point where this is possible and well deserved.

Yes, agreed, the crafting part goes out the window. Mining is profitable if Joe quickly prospects some good areas in his first few days of playing and then watches market prices and drop rates.

And for hunting, Joe just needs to know that low level mobs give low level texturing materials with high markup, mostly on Arkadia. For example Carabok, Halix, Jori. Did you see the markups on those? Sure, he can't hunt anything he wants and get anything but 0% loot return, but his priority is profiting, right?

And after all, this is a game, you pay money to have fun. Money is fixed in quantity and quality, but fun is variable in intensity and lenght of time. A long term hunting log posted by someone had 98% return rate over 350.000 PED (with markup included). He spent just 6000 PED for 3 years of hunting, or ~17 USD a month. Is that not comparable with any other MMO out there which also gives you 0% loot return in real cash?

 

[StrongMinded]

Let's say you are a trader and a hunter. You always save at least X peds left on your ped card. Once your ped card goes above that X peds. You use those peds for hunting. Those X peds are purely profit so you always "profit" with hunting with those extra X peds. The loot and skills are just bonus

And if the first few runs leaves you with -40%, no markup items etc. how will you be able to get to + - first and then use the profit peds to hunt? Are we talking opalo hunting for a few peds or?

 

[Jimmy B]

But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet.

It's been mentioned a lot, and is a common source of confusion. When we say 90% return, we mean that if you cycle 1000 PED tt, you expect to get back 900 PED tt. Measuring 'overall return' is pointless. Someone who deposits $1000 and cycles 10k PED would have a very different 'overall return' to someone who deposits $100000 and cycles 10k PED. They'll still have the same expected loss though.

If overall return did not tend to 0 after endless cycling, you could deposit $10 and play forever.

 

[Trina Xenophage]

I guess ALL of the posts I made over the years stating EU is a ZERO sum system just flew right over everyones heads...
Unless you are finding or getting things that cover that 10% decay to keep you going you cant play for free for long.
And its not profit until the money you put in is less then the money you tookout AND have back in your hands or bank account is ALL loss until that time.

 

[Magix]

Yep.

Also, because of deposit fees, withdrawal fees, decay, auction fees, drill decay, etc. I think Entropia is quite possibly the worst bet ever in all of gambling. Not only do you only get 90% back on every dollar bet (assuming you "win,") it might cost $1.25 to bet that one dollar and another 20% just to collect the 90 cents! Even the most brutal vig in all of sports gambling doesn't charge more than 10% on the dollar.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

You have no idea how many times I have tried to explain that when people say, "if you get 90% back how can MA stay in buisness?"

 

[Uvas]

Hey ya’ll! First of all, this is not a loot rant. I am somewhat happy as it is. I just want to branch off the discussion “90% Loot Return” and plant a little seed to see what grows.

So, from plenty of logs and tests the community have done, most of us (yes, I know, not all) have agreed to that the average TT loot return is around 90% over time. But now I want to point to the pink elephant in the room that nobody mentioned yet.

90% return per hunt over XX time and cycled ammo. Let’s say this is true. So you decide that you will make only one last cash deposit into EU ever, just a one-time chunk of lets say 1000 ped (Amount not so important, just making a point). You go all in and spend the full amount on a hunt and get 900 ped (90%) in return (Only taking TT value in consideration). You cycle this 900 ped and next time you’re back with 810 ped TT, next time 729 and the next 656… Well, and so on, you get where I am going with this. So unless you keep depositing cash into EU, wouldn’t it really be 0% return?

Yeah I realize that I leave out a lot of parameters such as skill gain that you can chip out and sell, the possibility to hit a big HoF or loot some rare items, but let’s keep this to the “average Joe” scenario. Thoughts on this?

Uh oh....you figured out Mindark's secret