AC death+FPS interface = physical harm if plaed like MMORPG?

[kygon]

If kygon cannot auto click for hunting, kygon will have to die, Ive never hidden the fact I've been reliant for a simple button pressing AC mouse macro for years, I have crippling RSI.

I cant play EU without ACer I cant play Crysis or anyother game without one either but the time i spend playing a FPS is nothing like the time I play EU.

and before the 'botting' argument starts there is a world appart from 'click click click' to a script that will hunt for you. I just need help with the pressing a button part there's an eithcal defined line in other MMORPGs that is publicly discussed IE "you can use tools to help play but dont think you can make them hunt for you or your locked" type thing

the cry2 engine was not made for Repetative MMPOPG actions... does MA really want to test the Health and Safety implications of forcing players to manually click things in a quite 'physically unhealthy way' EG old colouring actually had me in so much pain i was amazed people could even do it for more than 30minutes.


Cry2=FPS FPS time online for me at least 1 hour max
cryEU=MMORPG time online for at least 2-3 hour/day

I can hunt 20 ped amo then im in pain and have to quit so right now I can run about and explore and thats its, fine for now but no more real hunting for me.

I suspect some time of auto fire or NO AUTOCLICK allowed, MA risk the US/Europe courts by

"engouraging physical harm by repetative actions required to use a UI designed for short term usage in long term environment and blocking almost all known 'RSI assistance/assibility tools' "

I would be err'ing on the side where I dont get multiple million US law suites for causing games phyical harm but hey thats just my point of view.

and oh yea I work in UK HSE Oil and Gas industry and our company (due to our software products) has UK HSE reps here all the time, I may ask one if its legal, so if you think im a RSI whiner, think again and I KNOW what a UK company must do by law to prevent this I assume a Europe game company is not exempt)

!!HARM REDUCTION NOT HARM INCREASE!!!

 

[HardWrath]

What happens if you try and use the auto clicker?

Edit: I mean is there some new way of detecting or preventing it?

Auto-clickers have been against the EULA as long as I can remember.

 

[Smoerble]

Your account might get locked if MA sees this topic.

 

[mrproper]

Have you tried sidehanded mice?

Are your feet in working order?

Have you tried a Powerball so far?

Can you click a key instead of the mouse button to shoot?

 

[HardWrath]

Honestly I don’t think that you would have a solid case here.

MA could argue that:

- You knew Auto Clickers were against the rules of the game

- You knew what the repetitive motion would do to you and how it would injure you, yet you chose to do it

- It was not their product that injured you, it was the computer hardware that you purchased and voluntarily used repetitively fully knowing you would sustain injury over time

- There is nothing requiring you to play EU, as a result they can’t be held liable if you injure yourself while doing an activity with hardware manufactured by someone else that you knew would cause injury with repetitive usage.

 

[3-J]

you need a new ergonomic setup....

and cant you set the 'fire' button to any key on the keyboard as well??




just trying to help

 

[JaKst3r]

There is alot of haters out there.

This topic needs open discussion..... Im extremely concerened about the risk of serious RSI in later life (and given my current age, not that much later). I dont currently use an AC but I would certainly like to have the common sense discussion in the open regarding what would happen to my avatar if I was to develop serious issues and was unable to continue to hunt/mine/craft without assistance. Like Kygon I believe without the assistance of an AC this would be the end of my avatars life and my continued investment in EU.

This is a serious issue, requiring serious discussion.

 

[Galadea]

I got RSI problems from playing EU. It got better when I used a gamepad with buil in auto fire to hunt and for drilling. Without this option I won't play EU anymore, because it causes too much stress to my hands and I need them for other 'more important' things...
This problem doesn't only apply to EU, though, but also to other MMOs. There still is a major difference: Where most other MMOs are click intensive because of complexity of the involved game mechanism EUs game mechanism is very, very simple.
Crafting, drilling and hunitng all are highly repetitve actions which could easily be reduced to one click-> If weapon is equipped shot until the next click, or another item is equiped. The same could be done to drilling, etc.
The problem here is that EU would require even less interaction of the user. The game would be even more boring and close to a slot machine.

 

[nvcK]

I think only a grind loving self hating masochists can play EU anymore so you should actually be enjoying the RSI pain but that is besides the point.

Have you considered buying a mouse that has programmable buttons with macros built in at a hardware driver level? AFAIK there is not a way to detect/prevent that. I am thinking MS Sidewinder, Logitech G'somethings or Razers.

 

[Wolverine Queen]

IMO MA should allow autoclickers in this particular case, because it doesnt give any advantage, actually from MA's point of view it makes you able to burn more peds.

 

[Argh non Ral]

Posted in other topic first:

I have a Razor mouse and a G11 keyboard... that's thats about fancy 64 additional macroable buttons around...

Have not tried and not keen on find out if it works or not in VU10

What i am pissed about is MA made hunting an almost good first person shooter game but still have to click for every single shot...

Where are the automatic guns??????

Yeah, but I don't want to burst all my ammo into the air after a connlost or ctd.

 

[Konve]

Honestly I don’t think that you would have a solid case here.

MA could argue that:

- You knew Auto Clickers were against the rules of the game

- You knew what the repetitive motion would do to you and how it would injure you, yet you chose to do it

- It was not their product that injured you, it was the computer hardware that you purchased and voluntarily used repetitively fully knowing you would sustain injury over time

- There is nothing requiring you to play EU, as a result they can’t be held liable if you injure yourself while doing an activity with hardware manufactured by someone else that you knew would cause injury with repetitive usage.

Similarly, I could argue that AC'ers have never been illegal in Entropia and that Mindark are discriminating towards handicapped.

 

[HardWrath]

IMO MA should allow autoclickers in this particular case, because it doesnt give any advantage, actually from MA's point of view it makes you able to burn more peds.

MindArk should allow Auto Clickers period... the main reason why so many people have an issue with them is because ACs have in the past been against the rules.

Bots, scripts, etc... meaning programs that play the game for you should not be allowed however a pure Auto Clicker that simply clicks over and over without intelligence should be allowed.

Sometimes with issues like this we have to get back to the basics

1. MindArk is in business to make money
2. Most people play EU because of the Real Cash Economy and the potential to make money

By allowing auto clickers you encourage people to inject large amounts of PED into the loot system through the standard professions, especially Crafting.

Crafting is the backbone and core of the Entropia Universe economy.

When a high volume and skilled crafter goes on a large crafting run, they often times cycles tens of thousands of PED whereas if a skilled hunter or miner goes on a long run, it involves hundreds of PED.

100% of the resources found while mining are used while crafting. The vast majority of resources found while hunting are used while crafting. Because of this, it is very clear that Crafting supports both Hunting and Mining loot.

I just did a 1,000 click crafting run and almost fell asleep twice while doing it. Marco has said that he wants Calypso to be a "kick ass" gaming experience. In my opinion, a "kick ass" gaming experience is not one where you fall asleep while doing it. How many of you miners have fallen asleep while drilling up a large Lyst find?

"Gamers" want Auto Clickers and Auto Clickers help facilitate more activity within the standard professions. More activity in the standard professions means a more robust EU economy.

The common sense argument to this is: Well if we allow auto-clickers we compromise our ability to detect Bot programs/scripts/macros.

Well that might be true and the common sense solution to that is to build auto-clickers into the game itself and keep the ban on all 3rd party software.

Install a Fully Automatic firing feature into all weapons so it keeps firing until you click again to make it stop.

Install an "Auto Drill" feature into all Drills for Miners. The tool will keep drilling until you make it stop.

Install an Auto Craft function into the crafting machine. It will keep crafting as long as you are there and it won’t stop until you run out of resources or you make it stop.

 

[Lavawalker]

Look seriously guys - For everyone who has a clue about the issues surrounding crippling conditions or suffer from a disorder, or RSI or bone/joint problem.

I have one myself so I can spot a those with no fucking idea on the pain and discomfort involved in the most simplest of hand/wrist/pressure tasks like a simple push of a key a mile away.

Write and compile a Java app to move to the screen co ords of the crafting machine (Manufacture) button, click it and wait 6 seconds.

It is so simple to do a primary school student can make it.

There are many many tutorials on how to make such a simple application, there are also many plugins for java that will allow you to do this with ease.

One example from a 5 second search - http://www.1your.com/drupal/robotclassdemo

There are literally 1000s of them out there.

No rootkit software can detect the such, make the delay a random variable between 5 and 8 seconds if your worried about time delayed detection and what not - and add in a pause function.

Compile it, run it - bobs your uncle.

But yes, totally agree, MindArk have been nasty pricks as far as this whole issue goes. No respect for their customers and their health.

 

[Konve]

MindArk should allow Auto Clickers period... the main reason why so many people have an issue with them is because ACs have in the past been against the rules.

Please show me the EULA that stated auto clickers as illegal.

 

[thoreau]

Similarly, I could argue that AC'ers have never been illegal in Entropia and that Mindark are discriminating towards handicapped.

Good luck trying to convince a court in your home country that a Swedish company is denying you 'equal access' to an online game.

How about blind people? Going to argue that Mindark is discriminating against them too?

Now on to real arguments.

Entropia Universe is an online game. Everyone who hasn't drank too much of the kool-aid knows this.

Participation in the Entropia Universe is voluntary. You DONT HAVE to play.

If playing Entropia Universe causes you harm you SHOULD STOP playing.

If you cannot stop playing you should seek psychological counseling for addiction related problems.

If you try to participate in the Entropia Universe by using third party tools to minimize the pain you cause yourself- your addiction is worse than you can imagine.

 

[mrproper]

Similarly, I could argue that AC'ers have never been illegal in Entropia and that Mindark are discriminating towards handicapped.

That's a low blow.

Maybe MA is discriminating against the transexuals too, because only F avatars can wear F clothes...

 

[mrproper]

If playing Entropia Universe causes you harm you SHOULD STOP playing.

That, or adapt yourself to use other ways to achieve the same result.

You can use your legs for example...

 

[HardWrath]

Please show me the EULA that stated auto clickers as illegal.

3. No Interference

3.1 Prohibition to Interfere with the Entropia Universe System

You may not analyze, hack into, interrupt, redirect or in any other way affect or interfere with any data and/or network communication to or from the Entropia Universe System, the Entropia Universe servers, clients, websites and systems, as well as not use any other software than the Entropia Universe Client to interpret or affect data sent to or from the Entropia Universe server and client systems. You may also not replicate or in any other way falsely portray the Entropia Universe.

You may not use, launch or install any third party software, device or techniques that MindArk deems, at MindArk’s sole discretion, to be possible to use for collecting information from the Entropia Universe System or servers, constituting “cheating” and/or affecting the Entropia Universe in any way. This includes, without limitation, if possible to use for affecting the Entropia Universe System interface, the Entropia Universe environment, components, balancing and/or the Participant’s experience. MindArk reserves the right to revoke this limitation either generally or in specific cases.

3.2 You Consent to MindArk Monitoring Your use

You hereby give MindArk Your consent for monitoring Your use of the Entropia Universe System for the purpose of detecting use of unauthorized third party program or tool (as set out in paragraph 3 No Interference (EULA) 2:nd section).

http://www.planetcalypso.com/legal/eula.xml

 

[timmmers]

IMO MA should allow autoclickers in this particular case, because it doesnt give any advantage, actually from MA's point of view it makes you able to burn more peds.

Personally I think in some cases (crafting for example) ...they should build one into the game.

MA limit time allowed in their longer events like merry mayhem, so they DO know the problems long periods of play can bring.

Suggestions for hardware that may help is helpful, we all need this really to look after ourselves and avoid damage.

Personally I would contact MA support and explain your situation, and maybe offer them medical evidence of the problem? That way they wouldn't punish you for cheating when in fact you have a disadvantage and are only trying to even the playing field and play the game honestly.

Hopefully 3rd person will be back soon, and some of the other features that helped previously. Best of luck.

t

 

[HardWrath]

I will ask again. Is there some new way that MindArk is preventing or detecting auto-clickers?

3rd party programs (auto clickers) have been against the EULA for years.

 

[mrproper]

Personally I think in some cases (crafting for example) ...they should build one into the game.

So why is everyone circumventing the system instead of bashing Support with feedback on the issue?!

 

[psychnosiz]

There are solutions

 

[HardWrath]

So why is everyone circumventing the system instead of bashing Support with feedback on the issue?!

Probably because they think they won’t get caught

From the outside looking in, it probably seems to them (people) as if simply getting MA to allow auto-clickers is the easiest solution which is why we see the endless threads about it.

As soon as MindArk allows one kind of 3rd party application that affects game play they open the door to all kinds of problems. Which means, if we are going to have ACs then it would have to be a feature of the game itself.

 

[Mika]

can't play games without AC?? Common not like you are 90 years old and cant use your fingers is it? Oo

Jokes aside.

what does AC do you do? it helps you as an third party software to be more efficiant and to be more efficiant while doing less.

aka in another situation. cheating. same as doping, it makes you do more than you say could do in the first place.

and what do we also call it? oh yes, cheating.

AC makes you be more efficiant and gain advantages of the ones playing normally. That is cheating, and that is why anyone who uses AC should get perm banned. They deserve no less for wanting to take advantage of the normal player.

if they can perform very well without then there really is no other thing about whining about "I cant be lazy anymore", if you cant well then get training.

harsh, but its my opinion. I dont want to play along with cheaters. only ones who should be able to have an ingame built in "Clicker" should becrafting, crafting terminals should have an input option for "craft number of items:" for example. hunters and miners, dont be lazy enough to want to be cheatin!

and its good that AC is gone, aside from the ones who used it -only- for crafting and was present at their computer at the same time IE not making coffe caring less about their avatar doing things for them. all the others where using it wildly spread.

and think of the ones who stood afk sweating 24\7 at argus and other places. multiple accounts and exploiting and what not? is this something totally ok for you who want AC to be legal?

cheaters and exploiters will always find ways too in any game they play unfortunatly..

 

[mrproper]

Probably because from the outside looking in, it seems to them (people) as if simply getting MA to allow auto-clickers is the easiest solution.

As soon as MindArk allows one kind of 3rd party application that affects game play they open the door to all kinds of problems. Which means, if we are going to have ACs then it would have to be a feature of the game itself.

Short term, maybe. But see, some new software design and the short term solution dies.

Also, CCP has banned 3% of their playerbase for botting, CPU usage went down 30%, trading continued as normal, everyone was happy... so MA could think about starting to fight exploits, take care

 

[Immortal]

Kygon, as a temproary albeit not complete solution is it impossible to bind "operate" key to say enter(keypad) and another to tilde (or space) and alternate those? They are what I use for minmal strain gaming (don't even need dexterity to operate with Enter)

Also it may be possible to adapt pedal controls?


Hardwrath:
Autoclickers do not collect information. Nor do they alter files that run EU. Nor do they create an environment that may be used to access EU. That is what this section of the EULA pertains to. Which of these constitute "cheating" in Mindarks eyes are, as the EULA states, at it's discretion. As autoclickers have existed since the dawn of time, and no measues haves been made to outlaw them for use in EU, it is safe to say that MindArk does not view the use of autoclickers as cheating.

 

[mrproper]

AC makes you be more efficiant and gain advantages of the ones playing normally. That is cheating, and that is why anyone who uses AC should get perm banned.

That's not cheating.

Cheating is when some rules are in place, which specify that everyone needs to use the most common denominator: fingers + keyboard + mouse + EU + OS.

When someone breaks this rule, they cheat. Others don't break the rules, they are at a disadvantage.

 

[Firefly Fire]

There are solutions

good topic!!!!!


i was just about to go and do some googling, to see if i could find anything like this lol


Doing it this was MA can't say a thing, Its not software, its a hardware mouse mod

 

[timmmers]

Good luck trying to convince a court in your home country that a Swedish company is denying you 'equal access' to an online game.

How about blind people? Going to argue that Mindark is discriminating against them too?

Now on to real arguments.

Entropia Universe is an online game. Everyone who hasn't drank too much of the kool-aid knows this.

Participation in the Entropia Universe is voluntary. You DONT HAVE to play.

If playing Entropia Universe causes you harm you SHOULD STOP playing.

If you cannot stop playing you should seek psychological counseling for addiction related problems.

If you try to participate in the Entropia Universe by using third party tools to minimize the pain you cause yourself- your addiction is worse than you can imagine.

IT is illegal to discriminate against disability in the EU now, website owners for example have been dragged int court by organisations representing the blind and those with sight problems for not having text that can be read (either by a reader software or resizing) and been fined. All businesses have to comply and consider disability by law.

The bottom line is that it's poor design and customer care not to do the simple things to make things usable for customers, and the fact that most people with health problems have more interest in find a problem than exacting revenge in courts (and they tend to be less well off)...saved a lot of court cases.

There is at least one person who plays EU with very serious disabilites indeed, and given that he can't leave the house due to that ...EU is his only real social interaction and I think he said it was also a source of income. I hope he isn't screwed by this, havind made such an effort to overcome all the problems and won, only to have that wiped out for eyecandy.

A game isn't always for fun, wasn't there a recent story where EU was being used as a tool by therapists to treat some form of mental illness?

t