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FYI: Cross-sectional mining

Parlog said:
could it be that where the lines cross it makes sense to redrop and on other parts of the curve not?
Click to expand...

How big is the curve ?
How fast is it moving ?
Where is it located ?
Is it a circle ?

I cannot give you those answers, but it is an interesting approach to mining. What do you think would happen if you obtained the x/y ratio of the map sizes on Calypso and plotted the curve using that data ?
 
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Lets make a baseline circle.

CND is the location : x=1km y=1km.

X and Y Frequency is 1 claim per minute = 1/60 = 0.166666... So that is 60 points in total.

I want the distance between the points. That would be (2*pi*r)/60 = 52.36 meters. Quite close to what we currently have isn't it ?

Also if this is correct, and it simply transforms a circle into these other figures by compressing the x or/and axes, the amount of points in a set area will be the same even if it has been transformed.

The x and y ratios can be manually set to a different frequency which actually does not change the size of the rectangle / square. So we are back to square, well one.
 
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At first we need indicators that there is a pattern at all. The only way i see is to bring redrop successes into a relation. In your Lissajou curve (set at default) there are 22 spots where the lines cross. If those are the spots where redrops are succesfull (and in others not), you can completely determine the curve mathematically by bombcarpeting the whole area and finding those cross-sections (probably i am using this expression in my own way now but i hope you understand what i am talking about).

If the pattern is 3d, of course it is way more work, because you will need to bombcarpet on many different depths with different finders. But i know orespots that are made for a single finder only, the results i get there maxes out on a certain depth and a single depthenhancer (let alone another finder) can completely screw up my good hitchance (and also change the kinds of ores i find which is very frustrating when you go for narc and only find terrudite instead)

Is this worth a try?
 
Parlog said:
At first we need indicators that there is a pattern at all. The only way i see is to bring redrop successes into a relation. In your Lissajou curve (set at default) there are 22 spots where the lines cross. If those are the spots where redrops are succesfull (and in others not), you can completely determine the curve mathematically by bombcarpeting the whole area and finding those cross-sections (probably i am using this expression in my own way now but i hope you understand what i am talking about).

If the pattern is 3d, of course it is way more work, because you will need to bombcarpet on many different depths with different finders. But i know orespots that are made for a single finder only, the results i get there maxes out on a certain depth and a single depthenhancer (let alone another finder) can completely screw up my good hitchance (and also change the kinds of ores i find which is very frustrating when you go for narc and only find terrudite instead)

Is this worth a try?
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The curve in it's default 1, 1, 90 degree state is a circle.
 
R4tt3xx said:
The curve in it's default 1, 1, 90 degree state is a circle.
Click to expand...

i meant the link you gave plus the set defaults there:

X=10 / 3Hz / Ini Phase 90°
Y=10 / 5Hz / Ini Phase 0°
medium speed
 
Parlog said:
i meant the link you gave plus the set defaults there:

X=10 / 3Hz / Ini Phase 90°
Y=10 / 5Hz / Ini Phase 0°
medium speed
Click to expand...

Thats an example of the curve. Problem is, how big is it if it does exist ?

Ok lets say that it generates at a rate of 1 site per minute, that would place the size of the curve at current minute = current minute /60*1000.
 
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Parlog said:
Find the cross sections and you should be able to calculate it
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Well done on turning my own ideas back on me. I will do just that :), oh wait I don't have to.... enter logs, darn they are at home.

If this curve is correct and it is indeed generated when a bomb / probe is planted, you have a 25% (1 in 4 headers) chance to get a hit if you carpetbomb, ie move one header away from a current miss coordinate due to the fact that this curve turns back on itself just like an 8. Obviously from the coordinates of a miss or hit from a miss, if you head out at a 45 degree angle one radius in length, should net you a hit, going straight aint gonna net you a darn thing. Well unless you wait 4 minutes.

All of the above is subject to the correctness of Mindark basing their system on a Lissajous curve
 
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R4tt3xx said:
Well done on turning my own ideas back on me. I will do just that :), oh wait I don't have to.... enter logs, darn they are at home.
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btw, the distance between hits are still ~63m :)
 
After a miserable mining run last night trying to find the L Curve, I have decided to move on to something more in line with what I am good at.

May I present you with : The Spiral of Theodorus.

Yes, yes we have seen all of this before, another @#$%ing spiral. I will (if finances allow) be testing this tonight, if it does not work, well you all will hear all about it. How is this little spiral different to the last one ?

"Overlapping

In 1958, E. Teuffel proved that no two hypotenuses will ever coincide, regardless of how far the spiral is continued. Also, if the sides of unit "one" length are extended into a line, they will never pass through any of the other vertices of the total figure."

It does not create veins :) Nothing in this spiral lines up, and for me that is reason enough to try it.

More notes from looking at the spiral - Max distance from one header to another consecutive header in the spiral is 64m :) Excellent that lines up.

Something else, based on the other spiral's math, I have aligned my original number spiral to exactly 8 revolutions per 60 units (check your mining tools and you will see these values), have to test that one too :)

Thanks for reading.

L8r
 
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The Spiral of Theodorus what a complete and utter failure, it did give me a hint as to how it really works though.

And on that front, I wish you a plesant evening.

PS, deposit to deposit is ~63m
 
R4tt3xx said:
The Spiral of Theodorus what a complete and utter failure, it did give me a hint as to how it really works though.

And on that front, I wish you a plesant evening.

PS, deposit to deposit is ~63m
Click to expand...

correction.. still 63 m :p
 
incredible! I am very impressed with all you guy's knowledge in mathematics, curves, spyrals etc... But somehow i have a feeling that you are over estimating MA ))

Gl!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
xX Gently Xx said:
incredible! I am very impressed with all you guy's knowledge in mathematics, curves, spyrals etc... But somehow i have a feeling that you are over estimating MA ))

Gl!
Posted via Mobile Device
Click to expand...


A mining buddy told me that the mining system HAS NOT CHANGED at all since 5 years ago. So I tested it and sure enough, aside from ONE change it's still the same. The only other change was rewards, skill gains are now rewards for hitting a deposit with the value of zero. The change came in when looted corpses could contain no loot. It's a balancer to make sure that MA does not go bankrupt again.

Oh and Legion's idea about using skillgains to get claims, 100% on the money, it can be used to find claims, but you only have ONE chance to get it right else it all disappears into the aether.

There is nothing random about this little game.
 
Problem is now that I am getting way too many skillgains, the spiral is brilliant for racking up skills, bad at obtaining loot.

Back to the cross-section I think.


0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64

62.5m gap between numbers, and each number is a point in time, 64 should always hit or at least skillgain, then working back down the line, we should get skills / hits up to the current time.

If I am at the correct time for the value of 4 and 4 does not hit, below is how it could work.

Invalid Invalid 0 5 12 21 32 45 60

The values in the spiral can be shifted sqrt(time)-shift. In this case we have sqrt(x^2-4).
 
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Nope not this either, have to change my power then.
 
deposit to deposit is ~63m
Click to expand...

Really? That surprises me quite a bit. I would have expected 64m. Let me explain why:

To my knowledge, game servers are each handling an area 8192x8192m. 8192 is obvious as it's a power of 2 (2^13), which computers like. Splitting such an area into 63m squares makes no sense. Especially as floating-point performance at the time PE was created wasn't exactly stellar (not to mention division, whether FP or integer, is still a very slow operation). 64m squares on the other hand makes perfect sense. That way each area server only have 16384 areas to keep track of (possibly per user). Even if you reserve a whole byte for "kind" and another byte for "size", that's still only 64KB.

My 0.02.
 
tamlin said:
Really? That surprises me quite a bit. I would have expected 64m. Let me explain why:

To my knowledge, game servers are each handling an area 8192x8192m. 8192 is obvious as it's a power of 2 (2^13), which computers like. Splitting such an area into 63m squares makes no sense. Especially as floating-point performance at the time PE was created wasn't exactly stellar (not to mention division, whether FP or integer, is still a very slow operation). 64m squares on the other hand makes perfect sense. That way each area server only have 16384 areas to keep track of (possibly per user). Even if you reserve a whole byte for "kind" and another byte for "size", that's still only 64KB.

My 0.02.
Click to expand...

well it could very well be 64m it's roughly 63 as i said. However i belive there to be a LOT more points than 16384. Partly because a claim or a mob if you wish can stand 5m beside each other so that would in that case have to make it a lot more points. As to how i see the system working.
 
I am really sick of skillgains, I can NOT stop getting them, my loot hitrate is very bad but skills wow... 8192 no skill gains.

By the way the smallest single area in the game is 1km by 1km. Finish.


Sorry I am going to correct myself here, the smallest area is 1m by 1m, the 2nd smallest is 2m by 2m
 
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my little contribute about how mining works in EU.
there is a formula that start running when you drop a bomb. The formula will generate the 1,0 (resource , no resource) and the amount. The formula take in accont:
how much money MA made and spent in the last month
how much money MA made and spent in the last week
how much money MA made and spent in the last day
hoe much money the avatar made and spent
how much resources there are in game vs the need of the players

time and place don t matter.
 
I dont know if it is just me but has anyone noticed the "layers" system in this game now, I am enjoying it soo much at the moment. It basically seems to be fractal like it may even turn out to be a fractal in nature.

Ok basicly you have a set amount of possible deposit coordinates for each layer that you have access to. Each layer is twice as big as the previous one, hence the fractal type structure. It would be possible if you select the correct deposit coordinates to create a chain in the larger fractal basically generating a vein.

Each "instance" of the fractal has exactly the same amount of possible deposits in it. The only difference would be the distance between points. The fractal changes for each action performed, some claims spawn and others despawn creating a dynamic system. This would be extremely complex to figure out 100% as you do not know what each other avatar is doing to the bigger picture.

You can however control the smaller fractals. I am only beginning to scratch the surface on this and help would be appreciated.

This is a well thought out system that in itself is being built in layers.
 
R4tt3xx said:
I dont know if it is just me but has anyone noticed the "layers" system in this game now, I am enjoying it soo much at the moment. It basically seems to be fractal like it may even turn out to be a fractal in nature.

Ok basicly you have a set amount of possible deposit coordinates for each layer that you have access to. Each layer is twice as big as the previous one, hence the fractal type structure. It would be possible if you select the correct deposit coordinates to create a chain in the larger fractal basically generating a vein.

Each "instance" of the fractal has exactly the same amount of possible deposits in it. The only difference would be the distance between points. The fractal changes for each action performed, some claims spawn and others despawn creating a dynamic system. This would be extremely complex to figure out 100% as you do not know what each other avatar is doing to the bigger picture.

You can however control the smaller fractals. I am only beginning to scratch the surface on this and help would be appreciated.

This is a well thought out system that in itself is being built in layers.
Click to expand...


them layers i known about for some time ;) and read my exam ;P http://his.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?searchId=1&pid=diva2:323458 click the fulltext link and use google translate to translate it :)
 
Another update, for anyone that is following this. I don't know how / even if there is a static spawing system in this game. One thing I can tell you however is that I see it as a dynamic system, the basis for this system I will be posting in another thread.

Some light reading to pass the time.

On second thoughts, I am going to reveal nothing, the last time I opened my mouth on this forum not only did I get a lot of negative responses, but I had my little idea nerfed to high heaven.

ACTION -----> Reaction > Action > Reaction -------> Action

I will give a clue, the client has no memory of any action except for the previous action.

Let me give you a story of what the new idea will do. You are skipping stones at your local pond creating some nice ripples, when one little stone bounces back and hits you square in the face, that stone would be "Chaotic Pulse(tm)".

Enjoy your reading.
 
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R4tt3xx said:
Another update, for anyone that is following this. I don't know how / even if there is a static spawing system in this game. One thing I can tell you however is that I see it as a dynamic system, the basis for this system I will be posting in another thread.

Some light reading to pass the time.

On second thoughts, I am going to reveal nothing, the last time I opened my mouth on this forum not only did I get a lot of negative responses, but I had my little idea nerfed to high heaven.

ACTION -----> Reaction > Action > Reaction -------> Action

I will give a clue, the client has no memory of any action except for the previous action.

Let me give you a story of what the new idea will do. You are skipping stones at your local pond creating some nice ripples, when one little stone bounces back and hits you square in the face, that stone would be "Chaotic Pulse(tm)".

Enjoy your reading.
Click to expand...

Did you read my exam yet? about how to make a rce system? I think u will find it quite interesting ;)
 
System based mining is going to fail, Winds showed me this. Reason for this is that if something is broken and is causing some players to benefit from it without allowing equal opportunities to other players, it's an exploit. So placing or even using any exploits will get them busted if they do not create fair play.

So I will show you something else about cross-sectioning.

You have an area x by y that you want to survey, you can mine the entire area or pick a select few sites to sample the area. I can't tell more as that would fall into the concepts of Windswept. But let me just say this, you need to know what is in the area before you mine it.
You need to prospect first before you can mine.
 
R4tt3xx said:
You need to prospect first before you can mine.
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Somebody has read Parlogs wise advices :) Yeah i called it first that way, even here in the forum, maybe Teilk did hmmm not sure. Thats true and its obvious and always in front of your eyes when you get a prospecting skillup. They call it mining, but thats wrong, its called prospecting. True mining is hardcore powergrinding on a completely and entirely prospected spot. You know where to start, where to stop, you know its dead areas, its rich areas, everything. All you got to make sure is, you must come first and spend more than every potential competitor in the area + you need the perfect equipment and the skills to handle it. Read post 15 of this thread again what that means.

I am far of saying that i busted the system but the narrow timeframe when all my biggest mining hits fell is very eye-catching. I also made my first 1.4k peder Lysterium, about 4 years ago, in my lunchbreak between 1-3pm. My first breakthru on CND started with a Petonium Global at 1 o clock.

I know many of you log their mining runs, have you ever seen the impact of big mining aths on mining? The hours before it falls are dry like hell. ATHs can dry out mining for a full week or be the begining of a new high tide after a long and dry phase. They seem to fall arbitrarily, they change the finding quote and thereby change the market. The market cant tell us how the balance works because its MA who keeps the balance upright by reacting to the market if necessary with well set loots. Usually they play their own games with us. I have heard it so often, "the next ATH falls on ...", i use to ask the streettraders what they think, what the next ath will be. Within the years i saw 2 called shot ATHs amongst ~200fails. But believe me, a called shot ATH within 20 minutes raises your respect towards a streettrader a lot. Not sure what i should think of it.
 
Before I want to move over 100% to the teachings of Sage Windswept, there is something that I wanted to try, so I will make the experiment public.

X=sin(2*pi()*sqrt(h))*sqrt(h)*r
Y=-+cos(2*pi()*sqrt(h))*sqrt(h)*r
Z=r*h (Helix)

h=current header in a sequence
r=my radius

Thats the new positioning system that I am going to base my last test on. If this goes according to plan and fails miserably, my days of out-of-game meta thinking will cease and I will concentrate with ingame stuff that will not be posted on a public forum.

Reasons for this are as follows :
1) I will have peds

700 ped is a lot for me, although 200 has been flushed already obtaining some tools and finishing off some experiments. If anyone can offer me some mining tools at a good price, I would be most appreciative.

2) Nagging itch that needs to be scratched

Does the spiral work or not ?, currently my results have been dreadful when using it, but then again I am using a tool that doesn't have the greatest depth, so the question is can I focus on certain depths using the spiral ? Another itch that bugged me, with the spiral in any place mining at ANY coordinate at time 0 would create a hit, but I have not once been able to do it so far, so again perhaps my tool does not allow me to see it.

So it can be proven easily, buy a tt ore and matter finder and bomb / probe on a 0, if that hits,get the depth, point proven. Will post screens when it's all done and dusted. Instead of running around like a mad @##, let the claims come to me.

To recap, buy tt tools and blow them when the clock strikes 0.

L8r
 
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good luck ingame
 
Legion said:
ok well the timer is in more than one place at the same time, but pay attention to the hofs in the chat and you should notice something :) Weekends are easiest to spot it though due ot more hofs. :)
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many things. Most of them mean nothing. The difference between noob and ubah is the change of thinking "us make the globals" to a thinking of "I make the globals". Dead times or really great times. Its all about singing the "O-tone" in "the globals" yourself. Have you ever gone out to a mining spot with 3OA105 amps in your package and you were knowing you are doing the right thing? Right here, right now? You bomb a line of 10 drops west, just the way you do it, turn 1 drop southeast ,turn back east, just 7 drops east, the last 3 always have been shitty so you continue the carpet further south for 1 line, leave the next 2 lines out because you know they are dead, and continue the same thing further south, because you know you will hof there.

In mining i am more like a dancer than a mathematician, you need to dance to a strict coeography that resembles the harmony between your finders average depth and the landscape of the mining map under your feet.

a sentence full of beauty :D
 
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Parlog said:
many things. Most of them mean nothing. The difference between noob and ubah is the change of thinking "us make the globals" to a thinking of "I make the globals". Dead times or really great times. Its all about singing the "O-tone" in "the globals" yourself. Have you ever gone out to a mining spot with 3OA105 amps in your package and you were knowing you are doing the right thing? Right here, right now? You bomb a line of 10 drops west, just the way you do it, turn 1 drop southeast ,turn back east, just 7 drops east, the last 3 always have been shitty so you continue the carpet further south for 1 line, leave the next 2 lines out because you know they are dead, and continue the same thing further south, because you know you will hof there.

In mining i am more like a dancer than a mathematician, you need to dance to a strict coeography that resembles the harmony between your finders average depth and the landscape of the mining map under your feet.

a sentence full of beauty :D
Click to expand...


haha well i dance by the skillgains ;)
 
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