FYI: Definitive loot pool answer

[barbles marbles]

Maybe I shouldn't let this out. But for the sake of it....

2009-12-31 11:43 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi,

"Normal" is a tricky term and hard for us to say anything about, what you get out of a run depends on a load of factors, from your skill to the current state of the ingame economy. We have checked your account and everything there is in order, but apart from that we cannot give any very satisfactory answer. Make sure that your skills matches the equipment you use; ask you co-players for advice if needed.

Thank you for reporting the bug; we will investigate.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

If you didn't understand it,

from your skill to the current state of the ingame economy

Which means that there is a loot pool.

Kthxby

 

[ACEwoK]

hmmmm interesting....

 

[Cea]

Well they would be rather stupid if there wasn't any check against ingame economy. Nobody thinks there is a bust-the-bank ATH? Thx for the info though.

 

[Botchla]

Of course theres a loot pool,, what else?

btw, I need my ava examed, I lost 1400 ped in 2 hrs today crafting and mining, is this normal?

 

[xillonz]

This certainly does not guarantee that there is a loot pool. And it would be a hard argue to say that it strongly suggests there is a loot pool. There is a bunch of other plausible things that they could have meant by this.

Just a quick example: if the state of the ingame economy is such that there are lots and lots of players, but hardly any gun of type X in game, they might boost the likelyhood of X dropping. Certainly they don't want to flood the market with the same piece of armour when there isn't the players for it. And conversely, more players, more likelyhood of item drops?

This is plausibly something they could have meant.

We have already seen they have adjusted the drop rate of such things as blazar very recently.

This situation isn't suggestive of a loot pool.


I'm sure people can think of other things they could mean by that, that doesn't entail there is a loot pool.

 

[barbles marbles]

Certainly they don't want to flood the market with the same piece of armour when there isn't the players for it.

Surely we dont have enough gremlin arms hanging around.

Plus, the original question to that support case was a player asking if it's normal loosing $40 usd average per hour hunting with a mod merc.

They implied that the general state of the economy affects loot. The only possible meaning to the word economy is that there is a bubble with money in it. Which might also be called as a loot pool.

Argue whatever you want. I am right, you are not.

kbye

 

[xillonz]

Surely we dont have enough gremlin arms hanging around.

Plus, the original question to that support case was a player asking if it's normal loosing $40 usd average per hour hunting with a mod merc.

They implied that the general state of the economy affects loot. The only possible meaning to the word economy is that there is a bubble with money in it. Which might also be called as a loot pool.

Argue whatever you want. I am right, you are not.

kbye

I am not saying that this is indeed the appripriate explanation, just merely that it is possible.

The claim that the "only possible meaning to the word economy is that there is a bubble with money in it", is blatantly false. But I shall be charitable and assume you mean that "the only reasonable (fits in with our everyday EU usage meaning of the word 'economy' is there is a bubble with money in it". Even this is controversial, however even if it was trivially true, it would do you no good, as whilst it could also be called 'loot pool', this is certainly not the use of the words 'loot pool' that is typical. Whilst 'loot pool' might be inclusive of a "bubble with money in it", it doesn't only consist of that, which is what is required for your argument to go through.

As to your last comment, merely reasserting that you are right does you know good. Upon utterance of a claim (assuming your aim is to persuade, which seems to be at least part of the role of this thread), you are supplied with a burden of proof. Saying you are right does not fulfill this burden of proof, and thus any reasonable readers should not be persuaded. However they might read my arguments (thanks very much for the permission to give as such), and be persuaded, which is quite nice of me, considering I am not shouldered with a burden of proof, and so I am going beyond my call of duty. Perhaps you don't understand the basic mechanics of arguments, I am sorry then that you wont be able to come up with an appropriate response without a decent amount of luck. Perhaps you should see someone about that.

 

[barbles marbles]

And yet, insisting in distorting the meaning of a clearly simple affirmation by the responsible Mindark entities in regard to the matter in hand, using a politically correct type of speech as means of renforcement to the hipotetical veracity of one's view of the matter, isn't an attempt of persuading one into any intended purpose. Not at all.



You know what people who speak like that are? Full of it. Which you clearly are not. Not at all...

 

[xillonz]

Hmmm getting a tad off topic now. But the technical words I used are those which are in large use amongst the critical community, philosophers, logicians, statisticians and the like. Not sure how to layperson it without losing the clarity of thought I was aiming for sorry. Hmmm.

Once again you reassert your claim without any evidence, please fulfill your burden of proof. (I'm sure there are some nice wiki articles explaining that).

 

[barbles marbles]

That sort of speech is also used by con artists. Such as the people who implement laws imposed by a God nobody ever saw, in our society.

My "burden of proof" has already been fulfilled by the statement made by Mindark.

If you wish to distort it to your likings, well, feel free to do so. Claiming that 2+2=5 doesn't change the fact that 2+2=4.

Now, I'll respectably leave my hand right here, so that you can look it right in the face, and talk to it.

 

[kira-red]

you know barb, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to prove or claim exists.

all of us already know that there a cap (or restriction, if you will) on how much "loot" gets distributed. if you want to call this a "loot pool" or "bubble" feel free. however, it's normally described as a global loot pool.

the usual discussions are around how this potential loot is distributed by region, creature, maturity, and time. there are also more esoteric discussions around the concept of some direct contribution by individual avatars in the process ("personal loot pool").

the statement you posted from support contains no news whatsoever and most of us have been aware of these things for a very long time. yes, your skills matter with regard to what you can do effectively. your skill to equipment match matters in what you can do economically. the state of the economy matters in regard to what you'll receive. somethings are just not available or the current supply has been limited for a period.

since all of this stuff is already known and discussed in many different forms; perhaps, it might be easier to understand what it is you think you're disproving.

I'm also at a loss in understanding what the existence of the loot distributon sstem has to do with someone losing 400 ped an hour with a modified mercenary. I would be curious to know how this occured and for how long it was sustatianed. and for that, a significant amount of additional information would be required.

 

[Prescott]

Unless they clearly say there is a loot pool, everything is just assumptions.
There is no proof of this matter.

 

[kalanen]

Cool. Cocky noob uses the words "definitive", "loot" and "pool" in same sentence.

 

[SODERD]

Cool. Cocky noob uses the words "definitive", "loot" and "pool" in same sentence.

My ava have only found the no loot pool

 

[Vedder]

to the current state of the ingame economy

Which means that there is a loot pool.
Kthxby

It could mean a lot of things:
- There's a loot pool
- There's just randomness, but they can tweak the average return
- They might simply mean the markup
- It means that EU is dynamic

 

[Kerham]

Plus, the original question to that support case was a player asking if it's normal loosing $40 usd average per hour hunting with a mod merc.

Do you know what a mod merc is?

If you do, then know it that nobody ever promised/guaranteed profit with mod merc.

If with a gun which used continuously for an hour consumes 90-100$, with 0 markup consumed, you manage to lose 40, well, respect dude, you're a monument. And that, coming from me, in what regards whining, is a compliment.

 

[Sirhc]

2009-12-31 11:43 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi,

"Normal" is a tricky term and hard for us to say anything about, what you get out of a run depends on a load of factors, from your skill to the current state of the ingame economy. We have checked your account and everything there is in order, but apart from that we cannot give any very satisfactory answer. Make sure that your skills matches the equipment you use; ask you co-players for advice if needed.

Thank you for reporting the bug; we will investigate.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

Seems like a typical cryptic vague MA answer to me. "Tricky" and "Hard for us to say" seem to be what stand out to me. Seems like they are holding back which is normal for them. I don't see them confirming or denying a "loot pool" and I guess it all matters one what your definition of "loot pool"" means. IMHO I think its more like loot tables and specific avatar profiles are setup with conditions to pull from those tables based on their profile. Every mob as typical loot conditions as well as areas in mining. Sometimes we see waves of certain items and resources which is IMO again a direct manipulation of the tables.

Looting it dependant on the avatar(in teams) from what Marco said so there is some influence there, not sure what it could be good cycle, modifiers of some type, profile influence, or just a matter of time.

We also see a lot of globals from heavily hunted mobs which tells me the mob turn over rate and amount of ped funneling into a mob tend to mean more loot will come out of it at least tt wise. It never seems to contribute globally to other mobs and seems very localized IMO.

Now I can't say one way or the other if there is a giant loot pool. There may very well be one giant main system with branches of other systems. I don't think what Support sent is a definitive answer nor do I think you will ever get very many definitive answers from MA. Part of my reasoning for that is they really like to throw around terms like "dynamic" and if they give really definitive answers that pigeon holes them some making their useful "dynamic" term less effective. IMO MA's use of dynamic is the second part of the definition in bold below.

Main Entry: 1dy·nam·ic
Pronunciation: \dī-ˈna-mik\
Function: adjective
Etymology: French dynamique, from Greek dynamikos powerful, from dynamis power, from dynasthai to be able
Date: 1799
1also dy·nam·i·cal \-mi-kəl\ a : of or relating to physical force or energy b : of or relating to dynamics
2 a : marked by usually continuous and productive activity or change b : energetic, forceful <a dynamic personality>
3 of random-access memory : requiring periodic refreshment of charge in order to retain data

— dy·nam·i·cal·ly \-mi-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

So in closing I would take what MA says with a grain of salt. Not because they are directly trying to mislead but because its their bread and butter to keep the black box as secret as possible.

 

[wizzszz]

Unless they clearly say there is a loot pool, everything is just assumptions.
There is no proof of this matter.

Wrong - Marco and other "officials" used that term several times.

Not 100% sure but i even think it was Marco who coined that term.


And in general:
The question is not whether there is a loot-pool or not, but whether it's personal or not.

 

[Johned]

I posted proof of the loot pool several years ago

 

[heineken]

what is this thing called "loot" yall speak of?

 

[JohnCapital]

Dated July 3, 2006

What is this loot pool you refer to? ,-)

 

[garci]

[...] Argue whatever you want. I am right, you are not.

kbye

lol, loved that

 

[kalanen]

Wrong - Marco and other "officials" used that term several times.

What is this loot pool you refer to? ,-)

now, make it "several"

 

[wizzszz]

now, make it "several"

,-)

And while it may very well be that Marco used the term "loot server" more often, it is obvious that there is some kind of "pool" - no pool would mean loot is "unmanaged", and MA could never be sure if their income would cease to exist all of a sudden when the random (no pool = throwing a dice = random) loot generator spits out a couple of 200K ATHs at December 31st...

Ofc loots are "managed", and if it's managed, there is a certain "pool" the loot server is allowed to pay out from.

 

[kalanen]

Marco used the term "loot server" more often,

Not a single match...

Me still thinks the brainfart "loot pool" just distracted peeps from thinking how simple the system might actually be.

There's few tests done, and the results strongly suggest that the "seed" is determined by damage inflicted.

If every property holds additive value *3, 1 or /3 (just for example) and moving from value to another is done by causing dmg, you have foolproof loot system.

Say, you loot a small mob after 71.32 dmg inflicted using "seed" of 0.4 pecs / hp @ universe (/3), continent (1), area (1), mob (/3), maturity (*3) and object (1), you get loot with value of ~ 9,50 pecs, which pays out as 9 pecs.

 

[GoNi]

Not a single match...

Me still thinks the brainfart "loot pool" just distracted peeps from thinking how simple the system might actually be.

There's few tests done, and the results strongly suggest that the "seed" is determined by damage inflicted.

If every property holds additive value *3, 1 or /3 (just for example) and moving from value to another is done by causing dmg, you have foolproof loot system.

Say, you loot a small mob after 71.32 dmg inflicted using "seed" of 0.4 pecs / hp @ universe (/3), continent (1), area (1), mob (/3), maturity (*3) and object (1), you get loot with value of ~ 9,50 pecs.

And how do uber loots happen?
With your formula there won´t be any UBERloots, and there won´t be any no loots as well.

So your formula is obviously wrong

And if all the DMG done is stored for further useage somewhere, then its again a pool.

 

[kalanen]

And how do uber loots happen?
With your formula there won´t be any UBERloots, and there won´t be any no loots as well.

So your formula is obviously wrong

And if all the DMG done is stored for further useage somewhere, then its again a pool.

Hehe,

Ubers: Make all multipliers @ *3 and you have ath of that mob.
No loots: loot heart oil with the value of 9 peds and oops, you have no loot. (other cause for no loot might be avatar itself)

Damage done doesn't have to be stored. No loot pool.

Formula is bullshit for sure. It was description of a simple system using arbitrary values and multipliers. Go ahead. Search for mindark official's statement that's against the system just dercribed.

Yes yes. I know most peeps refuse to reinterpret things they see...

 

[Vedder]

And while it may very well be that Marco used the term "loot server" more often, it is obvious that there is some kind of "pool" - no pool would mean loot is "unmanaged", and MA could never be sure if their income would cease to exist all of a sudden when the random (no pool = throwing a dice = random) loot generator spits out a couple of 200K ATHs at December 31st...

Ofc loots are "managed", and if it's managed, there is a certain "pool" the loot server is allowed to pay out from.

A loot pool is one way to "magage" the loot, as you call it.
But it's not the only one.

 

[DarkFire]

it is obvious that there is some kind of "pool"

No it isn't. I've seen evidence pointing to the contrary.

no pool would mean loot is "unmanaged"

How so? you can't roll a 7 with a six faced dice.

a couple of 200K ATHs at December 31st...

Could be wrong ofc, but afaik no mob has big enough HP to support such a loot (and again, it's evident that loot is based on HP).

Ofc loots are "managed", and if it's managed, there is a certain "pool" the loot server is allowed to pay out from.

Or it is (of course) a random system balanced in favor of the house. Works brilliantly everywhere else, why not in EU?

And about MA using the term lootpool - it's been a buzzword in PE/EU/PC since forever. It's something the community can relate to.

 

[Johned]

A loot pool is one way to "magage" the loot, as you call it.
But it's not the only one.

Agreed, could be the loot pool, the loot cloud, the loot toilet, loot bank ...

Personally I think there are mutliple and specific groups of avatars are connected to each one, such as my avatar which appears to be connected to the loot toilet.