How would you feel ?

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Naomi

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Hi Cirrus

Thanks for sharing your concerns. I read your OP and some of the comments.

I think I understand what you are feeling, and I think I understand what MA's employer responded.

If I would have gotten the same response from MA, I might have felt offended as well. This is because their question can give the impression of an insult or even an accusation. People who are used to 'read between the lines', may read something like: "did you wait so long since you wanted to profit from it yourself", rather then "may we ask why you waited..."

I am absolutely sure that this was not MA's intention. The question can be understood in another way as well: "we are curious how it comes that the matter has not been brought to our attention earlier."
In my personal case that would probably be, because I have a lot to do and didn't bother reporting it sooner. I'm not a game developer, when I log in, I often won't bother with bug reporting, I just want to relax and get away from real life for a couple of hours.

Personally I learned to take reactions from others with a grain of salt, sleep on it, let it be for some time, and look at it from other perspectives before I answer. Anger often is caused by misunderstandings. Sometimes the message comes over differently, than what the sender intended. From our own perspective, things may look rude or harsh, while that was not the intention whatsoever from the sender. The art of tactfulness is not one of the easiest to master.


About the ToU statements... they are clearly intended so that people will not abuse unintented game benefits, and instead report them. This is because bugs/exploits can easily ruin a RCE game.
Still, imho it is up to the player whether, and when he wants to report the problem. The statement of "you must immediately", is not something I take literally. I mustn't do nothing. 'I mustn't even play this game, fuck off, would be my personal reaction. I hope MA is happy with my game activity, and will report when I feel like it.
Abusing exploits or bugs is what I consider a crime. I am sure MA values your report, even if their reaction could have been more understanding.


I would appreciate a more friendly approach in the ToU, something along the lines of:

If you come along a bug or exploit, please report it as soon as possible. We take great value in your report and wish to work together on improving the Entropia experience. We will gladly reward your effort.
Bug and exploit abusers will be punished with benefit reversals or account termination.


Tbh, I think everyone who files a valid bug/exploit report should be rewarded with some free (100ped) Universal Ammo, maybe an attribute point. (perhaps not everyone, but at least the first 20ppl)

goodluck!


edit: I do understand that the lawyer language of the ToU is possibly necessary to keep a stick behind the door for when cases become serious.
 
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Sheryo

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The problem with this bug/exploits reports is that everyone wants or expects something in return for doing that, not just to be solved.
This is actually so true, that's the greed and the jealousy, if some are rewarded, everyone should be or none, but the best reward for everyone would be the case to be fixed/solved. In early access, alpha/beta versions, rewards are welcome as it both benefits the game & the community and helps the game to grow, at some points bugs/cheats/exploits/abuses should be reported for nothing more than a thanks and a fix.
 

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The problem with this bug/exploits reports is that everyone wants or expects something in return for doing that, not just to be solved.
It's probably greed, that might be common since it's the thing that this game attracts...
It's also a problem with a vast number of players that think they pay a tax to their government and not paying a service here...


This is actually so true, that's the greed and the jealousy, if some are rewarded, everyone should be or none...
Yeah, judging by Cirrus' response to Sub Zero, invalidating his argument because he got 2 ubers in a day :D
People are born equal but some choose to live their life as victims, always not getting enough from life. Sad AF.
 

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ill tell you why he didnt.. because regardless of what we think NOONE likes a rat! plain n simple!
There is only one question, who is the rat? The one who cheats all others who uses this service or the one who exposes the abusers?

In my view the abusers are the rats and should be eliminated. What do you think about it mspatterson who do you think are the rats?
 

~ Cirrus ~

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There are some very clever answers here.

And others that are... well... much less so.

It's funny that the people who talk about greed here are the greediest and most selfish people I've ever met ingame...
Isn't that right Evey ?

So guys before you talk about reward, read it again and take all the time you need to understand that what you are saying is stupid.

As I said, I'm not even sure that this exploit even exists.
I think it does, but I don't have formal proof of it.
That's probably another reason why I waited. (Should I report an exploit that I have been told about but have not seen for myself ?)
So how could I expect a reward for an exploit that may not exist ?

And by the way, you should ask Hego Damask, who apparently is good at finding my old posts, to find the one where I explained that MA shouldn't set up a systematic reward system for report of exploits, because it would cause an ethical problem. (thanks in advance Hego :))

I'm not going to explain a 4th time why I made this thread for stupid people who still haven't understood after 3 times.
Or who pretend not to understand, but are just angry and bitter...

Luckily there are some very clever posts here, from people who understand what we're talking about.
Even if they don't all agree with my reaction, they understand it and it reassures me.
 

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don't take it too seriously ... because tbh, i think it doesn't deserve it :nana:
 

~ Cirrus ~

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don't take it too seriously ... because tbh, i think it doesn't deserve it :nana:
That's right.

And in fact my initial post is still there, I haven't touched it, and it would have stopped there if some people hadn't made dubious accusations against me.

I'm trying not to react to such bullshit.

But I can't help it, my level of tolerance for stupidity is very close to zero... :oops:
 

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In answer to the question, "how would you feel?". At least a tiny bit irked for sure. It wasn't very tactfully put but then again there is likely a language barrier and subtleties of politeness and tact can easily be lost. So you can forgive them that much.

That said, had it been me, depending on mood and if I'd felt especially irked... I'd have probably taken the question very literally and given them a blow by blow explanation of all the troubles I have in my life, the things I need to get done on a day, stuff I'd prioritise over wasting time on their support only to be (evidenced multiple times) ignored (or log and flogged) having just spent a significant amount of time patiently explaining an issue to them. It takes time to do it right and well they well know it cause otherwise they'd bother to write a decent response and keep tickets open till the issues are fixed... managing the issues properly like any other support anywhere.

In a parallel universe where I'd have the time or interest, I'd have provided references to all the threads on here about unfixed exploits over the years and some of the more recent ones even to hammer the point home that the 2nd main issue, that of support being unfit for purpose, continues on to this day. I might reference also a server crashing bug I discovered and reported years ago that lay ignored for some weeks till I alerted an in game MA rep to it also.

Finally, I'd have probably countered the question by asking if they are going to ask their testing team why the bug/exploit wasn't detected before release in the first place? Two can play at the blame game.

In short, it takes time to write a proper support ticket, especially if the nature of the issue is complex and requires testing, lengthy descriptions of steps, or supporting documentation such as screenshots or a video. Leaving it for a few weeks where you find an hour or so spare to do all that seems perfectly reasonable. Especially during a pandemic.

Wistrel
 

Dibbler

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@Cirrus

You reported.

Support asked how long you known, they asked me same when i reported stuff. Don't take to heart, text lacks context :).

Ignore the hate, leave thread be and move on, you did right thing.


Replying to random crap not worth your time or headspace. :)

Finally have a great evening.
 

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@Cirrus

You reported.

Support asked how long you known, they asked me same when i reported stuff. Don't take to heart, text lacks context :).

Ignore the hate, leave thread be and move on, you did right thing.


Replying to random crap not worth your time or headspace. :)

Finally have a great evening.
Much as I hate to say it. This is the right attitude. Seriously all, life is too short to worry about these people.

Come to think of it... what begs the real question here is: "why didn't the person who told you (OP) about it tell MA?" I suspect the answer is, it's probably easier to just show/tell the exploit to someone else and hope that they are sucker enough to waste their free time reporting it to the "Ignore-o-phone".

Kinda clever if you think about it... providing they don't dob you in as the source of course ;)

Wistrel
 

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Hypothetical scenario:
Player finds out about exploit, but it is 10:45PM, and bed time is 11PM.
No problem, I'll report it tomorrow.
Tomorrow comes, player forgets about reporting exploit for a week or so, or just doesn't have time to log in.
A week or two goes by.
Oh, I was going to report this exploit last week. Now I have two options:
A. Submit exploit to Mindark, and they rudely accost me as to why I didn't report it sooner, or possibly take actions against my account.
B. Do nothing, save myself some time, and go about business as usual.
Which option do you think most people are going to go with?
If they asked me why it took so long to report, my response would be: Why do you take 6 months or more to respond to support cases? Your response will get a similar response from me.
 

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How would you feel ?
This si the title.

If you'd feel good whith it, nice.

Now it's about what I felt.
You know, when you reach out to someone to help them and what you get is a kick in the ass.

And that's to be taken in context of course...

Cheaters who are not punished.
MA who arranges with his own rules when it suits them.

The ToU says that exploits must be immediately reported ?
OK.
It also says that cheaters will be punished.

What about the guys who not only didn't report Yog horror cheat, but also used it for years ?..

I would say, start by following your own rules very strictly, if you want others to do the same...

I'm just getting really tired of the way MA "works", and what they do to this game.
And this was like the straw that breaks the camel's back.
So maybe I "over-feel" it, but that's what I felt, nothing more.
Corporations are deeply narcissistic. It's behavior that's mandated from them, and enforced indirectly in numerous ways, by such organizations as USA's SEC in order to propagate viability. When a corporate policy generates narcissistic behavior, invective voiced against or to that corporation can achieve ultimately nothing. It's up to actual people to manage such situations towards their best possible outcomes - in this case, the correction of the exploit at minimal expense in the form of damage to other attributes of the game, so we players can enjoy it and continue to anjoy it. We can give MA plenty of pointers as to what sorts of changes would inspire us to deposit more, more often, and we can alert MA when something goes sideways or wrong, and that's about it. The rest is between each and all of us.
 

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@Cirrus

You reported.

Support asked how long you known, they asked me same when i reported stuff. Don't take to heart, text lacks context :).

Ignore the hate, leave thread be and move on, you did right thing.


Replying to random crap not worth your time or headspace. :)
This is the best response really. Thanks.
 

raulpon

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Oh wow...and I thought I seen all kinds of stupid.

You find a bug/exploit, you go report it ASAP, unless you are looking to benefit from it or want others to benefit from it. How about you do not get any loot, which is also a bug/exploit, and you just sit on it and play the game without looting a single thing in a month? Logical?

MA does not make you look for bugs, does not make you do their job! You are playing a game, bugs/exploits/broken stuff is common, Entropia can't be your first MMO and/or game you ever played?!

Reporting this stuff ASAP is common sense!
 

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You are flat out wrong. It is every single one of our jobs to report exploits we see immediately. I would have asked you the same exact question.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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Oh wow...and I thought I seen all kinds of stupid.

You find a bug/exploit, you go report it ASAP, unless you are looking to benefit from it or want others to benefit from it. How about you do not get any loot, which is also a bug/exploit, and you just sit on it and play the game without looting a single thing in a month? Logical?

MA does not make you look for bugs, does not make you do their job! You are playing a game, bugs/exploits/broken stuff is common, Entropia can't be your first MMO and/or game you ever played?!

Reporting this stuff ASAP is common sense!
Your comment is... embarrassing.

I hope for your sake that you have made no effort trying to see the problem beyond the first degree of understanding...
 

~ Cirrus ~

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You are flat out wrong. It is every single one of our jobs to report exploits we see immediately. I would have asked you the same exact question.
Maybe you should check the definition of the word "job". :unsure:
 

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How about you do not get any loot, which is also a bug/exploit
Happend to me, about 10 no loots in a row, sent support case with screenshots on the 6th july, still no answers.
 

Raffaele Meiers

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Hypothetical scenario:
Player finds out about exploit, but it is 10:45PM, and bed time is 11PM.
No problem, I'll report it tomorrow.
Tomorrow comes, player forgets about reporting exploit for a week or so, or just doesn't have time to log in.
A week or two goes by.
Oh, I was going to report this exploit last week. Now I have two options:
A. Submit exploit to Mindark, and they rudely accost me as to why I didn't report it sooner, or possibly take actions against my account.
B. Do nothing, save myself some time, and go about business as usual.
Which option do you think most people are going to go with?
If they asked me why it took so long to report, my response would be: Why do you take 6 months or more to respond to support cases? Your response will get a similar response from me.
I would take option C and not tell MA that I knew of this bug since one week and everything is moot.

But maybe it has some other implications with all this reporting and screenshot that Cirrus excluded from this thread as the screenshots he sent to MA was the proove to MA that he knew it since a month.

So he could have written the support case and not include the screenshot with the information to the bug and MA never ever would have asked the question about why he waited one month but he sent them a screenshot with the information so MA knew that he waited for one month. I think the reason behind the question from MA is likely the following: As he took a screenshot to report this exploit in the first place why did he then wait for one month to report it? He did certainly not took the scrennshot by mistake and suddely one month later decided to report this exploit. Maybe MA Support wanted to find out the reason for his waiting time, like if the other person who told him the exploit asked him to wait one month or whatever reason he had to wait one month. That this question offended him was, in my view, and also from the wording of the question not intended or why should they ask politely when they would suspect that he may abused the exploit himselve?

May we ask why you waited since [2020-xx-xx 00:27:09] when you had this conversation with this player, to report this to us?

Thank you for your cooperation.
I think this is a polite way to ask a question(May we ask) and if MA Support would think you used that exploit it would certainly ask it not in a polite way(Why did you not report it immediately, did you use it yourselve or what reason did you have to wait one month while loggin in every day?). I think that would have been a bad way to ask the question and suggestin that you abused it not when they only ask about why you waited. But that is only my opinion and the opinion from many other persons answering in this thread.
 

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Happend to me, about 10 no loots in a row, sent support case with screenshots on the 6th july, still no answers.
Honestly when I had such mobs, I reported it with Time and Position mentioned in Support case and normally found some peds the next day in my storage as compensation for the zero loot, most probaly the amount I spent to kill the mob.
 

~ Cirrus ~

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Happend to me, about 10 no loots in a row, sent support case with screenshots on the 6th july, still no answers.
It's a good example of the root of the problem, which is mainly what made me feel irritated by their response.

Some problems affect them particularly, and so they take their rules very seriously...
Some others affect them much less, so there they are much more "flexible"... :coffee:

This is what we call "double standards".


Seems like you have to ask them in that polite way:

May I ask why you waited 3 months now, since when you had my message, and you still didn't reply to me ? ;)
 

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Maybe you should check the definition of the word "job". :unsure:
Maybe they should try understanding the Terms of Service they agreed to? Had they read it before agreeing, they would realize THEY AGREED to report these things immediately upon finding out. Then they got butt hurt because THEY got called on not doing what THEY agreed to.

They are flat out WRONG. They agreed to do what they were asked about. Just because they are lazy or do not take the time to read things they agree to does not excuse them from THEIR responsibility.

Oh and maybe YOU should try reading the definition of job. I posted it below so you don't make yourself look dumb again:

" a task or piece of work, especially one that is paid. "

Reporting bugs is certainly a "task or piece of work...". You will notice it does not mean something you get paid to do in every case it just "especially" means one you get paid for.
 
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Naomi

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Maybe you should try understanding the Terms of Service you agreed to?
So you really read every ToU of every elektrical product you buy? Have you read all of the small print of your iphone, samsung or whatever? Do you read every installation manual of everything you buy? Do you read every paper of medication in your hands before you buy it?...
Btw, did you read all of the ToU of your Windows when you bought the pc, or installed the windows?
And did you read the ToU before you played EU for the first time?

Truth is... NOone does that. It is only afterwards, when one is in doubt, that such things get read. ToU is mainly for legal issues when the arise.
 
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~ Cirrus ~

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Maybe they should try understanding the Terms of Service they agreed to? Had they read it before agreeing, they would realize THEY AGREED to report these things immediately upon finding out. Then they got butt hurt because THEY got called on not doing what THEY agreed to.

They are flat out WRONG. They agreed to do what they were asked about. Just because they are lazy or do not take the time to read things they agree to does not excuse them from THEIR responsibility.

Oh and maybe YOU should try reading the definition of job. I posted it below so you don't make yourself look dumb again:

" a task or piece of work, especially one that is paid. "

Reporting bugs is certainly a "task of piece of work...". You will notice it does not mean something you get paid to do in every case it just "especially" means one you get paid for.
Sir, Yes Sir !!!
Are you in the army ?

Read my post just above, maybe it will help you to understand some "nuances", even if I know that for some people nuances are too complicated..

Maybe also my first posts where I explain that I never checked this exploit myself.
Does it say that I have to report something that I was just told about ?
Words have a meaning that can vary depending on the context...

"You must immediately report errors and bugs in the Entropia Universe to MindArk whenever You discover them"

See ? Even the You is whith Uppercase.
Did I really "dicover" an exploit myself when someone told me about it but I can't do it ?..

More nuances, yes I know, it's not that simple... :rolleyes:
 

raulpon

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Happend to me, about 10 no loots in a row, sent support case with screenshots on the 6th july, still no answers.
Why did you not send it on 6th of August?

OMG, did that question just insult you, so you gonna go run post it all over the forums?
 
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