Impact of skills on professions

[Coffee]

NP, and tnx for reporting this bug. I uploaded my own skills, and in order to get it right it is best you erase the miner skill manually. If you havnt unlocked it, it wont be removed automaticly.

Now that you mention that I had trouble doing so. I couldn't figure out how to actually delete it and ended up just setting it to zero. Just how do you go about deleting a skill?

Edit: Nevermind that. Went back to take a third look and I finally got it figured out. Sometimes it takes me a few tries to realize what I'm doing.

 

[Jimmy B]

OK. Sounds to me like the best method to upload stuff to wiki is:

(i) Use NRF to grab profession & skill levels.
(ii) Manually record EPWT skill level.
(iii) Export to NRF skill file XML.
(iv) Import it to wiki.
(v) Manually enter EPWT skill level on wiki
(vi) Check for errors in skills due to professions having the same name as skills (eg. Miner, Sweat Gatherer, Mentor, etc) particularly if you haven't unlocked the skill (or profession?) and amend accordingly.

(vi) shouldn't have any impact on the Grenadier stuff though.

I'll fire some more rockets soon to get another data set, and extract what I can from wiki. Neomaven's data set with prolevels would be useful as it should help us get the impact of Kill Strike out (Stryker also said he'd send me some data sometime so then we'd be sorted). I personally think we may have the (Dmg) pro right and the small errors are just problems with upload and rounding but time will tell

I'll try to get some numbers out for the engi one as wiki data starts appearing.

Sooner we get it all figured out, sooner MA gives us some more professions

 

[Coffee]

OK. Sounds to me like the best method to upload stuff to wiki is:

(i) Use NRF to grab profession & skill levels.
(ii) Manually record EPWT skill level.
(iii) Export to NRF skill file XML.
(iv) Import it to wiki.
(v) Manually enter EPWT skill level on wiki
(vi) Check for errors in skills due to professions having the same name as skills (eg. Miner, Sweat Gatherer, Mentor, etc) particularly if you haven't unlocked the skill (or profession?) and amend accordingly.

(vi) shouldn't have any impact on the Grenadier stuff though.

I'll fire some more rockets soon to get another data set, and extract what I can from wiki. Neomaven's data set with prolevels would be useful as it should help us get the impact of Kill Strike out (Stryker also said he'd send me some data sometime so then we'd be sorted). I personally think we may have the (Dmg) pro right and the small errors are just problems with upload and rounding but time will tell

I'll try to get some numbers out for the engi one as wiki data starts appearing.

Sooner we get it all figured out, sooner MA gives us some more professions

Ok... don't have to do all that. I found out that NRF really is recording EPWT. It doesn't show as a skill in NRF because it's actually being recorded as "Explosive Weaponry Technol..." All you need to do is save as .XML and then edit the .XML file using search "Explosive". This will locate the tag for EPWT and you can rename it "Explosive Weaponry Technology". The total skill count in NRF is correct with EPWT just not visible. Doing the edit on the .XML file will allow the skill to properly upload to wiki.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Also there is no need to check proffessions and skills with same name if you have only used the xml format to upload. The tags denote the difference between professions and skills. It may be necessary to double check if you've used the CSV format in the past though, as this did not differentiate between the two.

 

[Jimmy B]

Ah OK, thanks Coffee.

 

[LeeLoo Faith]

Hehe, Today I reached Level 16 while Hunting




Ok, ok I checked - there was Dexerty Gain just above

Glamour & Coloring Method. still not here
Agility 46
Int 30
CM 1546
C 2367
FD 88
Dex 2709

 

[Jimmy B]

Stryker has given his data for (Dmg). He took it all when he reached level 69 in (dmg), and the calculated formula with the percentages as they stand on pg.12 is 69.000226.

I'm 99.999211% sure we've got that one right.

I'll take a look at wiki and give the engi one another go later today.

Hehe, Today I reached Level 16 while Hunting




Ok, ok I checked - there was Dexerty Gain just above

Glamour & Coloring Method. still not here
Agility 46
Int 30
CM 1546
C 2367
FD 88

Thanks Leeloo

You've missed Dexterity out but I'm guessing its not changed much since the last time. I'll take a look at this later today too!

 

[Jimmy B]

Glamour & Coloring Method. still not here
Agility 46
Int 30
CM 1546
C 2367
FD 88

The percentages I have already give me 15.984 using your old value of Dexterity (2701). So it looks pretty good to me, given that you no doubt have gained a little dex since then.

FD is still very low though - it'd be interesting to see another data set when you've skilled that up a bit. Maybe when you hit lvl 17

 

[Jimmy B]

Right, I've added the numbers for Projectile Launcher Engineer. Thanks Doer for the help

I think they're right although I won't eat my hat if they aren't.

Witte's data forces Int*20=2% and Engi=26%, then Doer's data forces BPC=28%.

The rest of the numbers was done using the trial and error code. Since the numbers are quite small I had to set the error bounds to the absolute minimum possible using NRF (-0.005 to 0.013) else I got loads of solutions (I was also including SWS in the calcs). With that setting though, the set of numbers that comes up is the only solution that fits my own data and the five on wiki Doer assures me are accurate

A few of the numbers have been reduced from the normal engi percentages to allow EPWT to get an extra 5%. Also BPC (28%) and Manufacture Weapons (9%) appear to have been switched. My gut feeling is that this was a mistake made when MA implemented the VU, can't be sure but its really odd, so I dropped in a Support Case just in case.

 

[LeeLoo Faith]

The percentages I have already give me 15.984 using your old value of Dexterity (2701). So it looks pretty good to me, given that you no doubt have gained a little dex since then.

FD is still very low though - it'd be interesting to see another data set when you've skilled that up a bit. Maybe when you hit lvl 17

Oups sorry for missing out Dexterity, will look it up when I am online again (Wednesday, not at home atm). If I dont forget I will give you another data set with more FD some time later

 

[Jimmy B]

Forgot to mention: it appears neither SWS nor EPWT give HP, according to the fap test anyway.

Oups sorry for missing out Dexterity, will look it up when I am online again (Wednesday, not at home atm). If I dont forget I will give you another data set with more FD some time later

Thanks Leeloo.

 

[Doer]

Forgot to mention: it appears neither SWS nor EPWT give HP, according to the fap test anyway.



Thanks Leeloo.

Hmm, odd; there's now a combat profession with no primary hp skill. Rifle and HG and Melee Combat cover the rest of the bases.

 

[Kedzior]

I have some doubts about laser weapon engineer. I had lvl 10 in this proffesion and lvl 14 in manu mechanical equipment. Today I chipped out my 1.2k lvls of manu mech skill and I lost few lvl in manu mech technology. But suddenly I lost also almost 1 lvl in laser weapon engineer and my bpc skill was blocked. Can anyone explain it? According to this thread manu mech equipment skill has nothing to laser weapon engineer proffesion and I shouldnt have lost any lvls in it!!

 

[Jimmy B]

Hmm, odd; there's now a combat profession with no primary hp skill. Rifle and HG and Melee Combat cover the rest of the bases.

Hmm, yes. I only tested it briefly so I may have been wrong, but skill gains in neither SWS nor EPWT appeared to allow me to fap.

Weapons Handling still contributes HP though.

I have some doubts about laser weapon engineer. I had lvl 10 in this proffesion and lvl 14 in manu mechanical equipment. Today I chipped out my 1.2k lvls of manu mech skill and I lost few lvl in manu mech technology. But suddenly I lost also almost 1 lvl in laser weapon engineer and my bpc skill was blocked. Can anyone explain it? According to this thread manu mech equipment skill has nothing to laser weapon engineer proffesion and I shouldnt have lost any lvls in it!!

I suspect part of your 10 levels in Laser Weapon Engineer was contributed to by BPC, and without BPC you would have been less than lvl 10. For BPC to stay open I imagine you are required to have at least one relevant profession that you would have lvl 10 even if you didn't have BPC.

So after you chipped out the Man Mech, you didn't have enough in any profession to have lvl 10 in it without BPC, ie. you didn't have enough in any profession to have BPC unlocked. So BPC locked again.

 

[jdegre]

I suspect part of your 10 levels in Laser Weapon Engineer was contributed to by BPC, and without BPC you would have been less than lvl 10. For BPC to stay open I imagine you are required to have at least one relevant profession that you would have lvl 10 even if you didn't have BPC.

So after you chipped out the Man Mech, you didn't have enough in any profession to have lvl 10 in it without BPC, ie. you didn't have enough in any profession to have BPC unlocked. So BPC locked again.

This seems to be the most likely explanation but, if this is true, it is quite surprising, at least for me, because I've always thought that you could keep your skills unlocked as long as the required level is kept, no matter how.

Hmmm, this is an interesting finding, but bad news...

 

[Avery]

I believe this is the case; and BPC was locked because of Jimmy's explanation.

A friend had Kill Strike locked in a similar way. He had 2k+ KS, so decided to chip out a little IRD and RDA iirc. He should still have been on 45.5%+ minimum damage, but KS got locked when he took the chips out.

 

[Doer]

Yes, i had this question a while ago and had a society member re-unlock RDA (which he had a few k levels in) at the usual level of (Dmg) profession, and his (Dmg) suddenly jumped up a few levels, which proves the same thing.

When i look at the chipping calculator for chipping out engineering skills, i always set BPC to 0 so that i know how far i could go without losing the unlock. Perhaps there's a way to incorporate this information into the chipper to make people aware?

 

[jdegre]

When i look at the chipping calculator for chipping out engineering skills, i always set BPC to 0 so that i know how far i could go without losing the unlock. Perhaps there's a way to incorporate this information into the chipper to make people aware?

At the moment the chipping tool does not have any built-in knowledge about unlocks (there is merely a text hint line indicating the usual unlock levels, but it is not bound to the data model in the tool).

So, the way it is now, the tool could be recommending partial chip-out paths that would unadvertently re-lock a certain skill, which is not good... and the problem is that it is very hard to implement, because I should evaluate the pro-standing level of ALL professions involving the unlockable skill, and do that for every iteration of the optimization algorithm (and there are literally thousands of iterations)...

I'll think about it but it sounds quite hard (unless i restrict the calculation to the current selected profession, and let the user handle the cross-profession implications).

/jdegre.

 

[Doer]

At the moment the chipping tool does not have any built-in knowledge about unlocks (there is merely a text hint line indicating the usual unlock levels, but it is not bound to the data model in the tool).

So, the way it is now, the tool could be recommending partial chip-out paths that would unadvertently re-lock a certain skill, which is not good... and the problem is that it is very hard to implement, because I should evaluate the pro-standing level of ALL professions involving the unlockable skill, and do that for every iteration of the optimization algorithm (and there are literally thousands of iterations)...

I'll think about it but it sounds quite hard (unless i restrict the calculation to the current selected profession, and let the user handle the cross-profession implications).

/jdegre.

I think it would be sufficient to indicate, in the final solution, that the proposed chipping would lock the skill (maybe turn the skill name red). Part of the help could suggest manually setting the unlocked skill to 0 before running the calculator. Adding awareness of unlocks is not a trivial addition, so it may not be worth it.

Going back to the lack of primary HP gainer from Support Weapons and subject of health gainers...does anyone else think Bravado is bugged? It's the only General skill that doesn't give HP.

 

[Jimmy B]

Going back to the lack of primary HP gainer from Support Weapons and subject of health gainers...does anyone else think Bravado is bugged? It's the only General skill that doesn't give HP.

Dunno but Alertness doesn't give HP either.

 

[Doer]

Dunno but Alertness doesn't give HP either.

Ah, true. Well, maybe Alertness is bugged, too.

Just feeling melee users got and keep getting shafted the way game mechanics work.

 

[Raffaele Meiers]

Ah, true. Well, maybe Alertness is bugged, too.

Just feeling melee users got and keep getting shafted the way game mechanics work.

Maybe to level it out between Swordsman and Pistoleer/Rifle MA made Melee Combat contribut 0.1875% to health and Rifle/Handgun only 0.0625% as you get also Dexterity witch contributes 0.125% to health so a ranged skill with the general skill together contributes the same amount as Melee Combat to health for a Swordsman.

 

[Kedzior]

Thx for answer Jimmy. Yeah that must be the case. Ive lost exactly the part of the level in laser engineer proffesion which my lvl of bpc gives.

 

[Doer]

Maybe to level it out between Swordsman and Pistoleer/Rifle MA made Melee Combat contribut 0.1875% to health and Rifle/Handgun only 0.0625% as you get also Dexterity witch contributes 0.125% to health so a ranged skill with the general skill together contributes the same amount as Melee Combat to health for a Swordsman.

Actually, based on the results in my thread on skill gain ratio, we can assign a "hp factor" to the different combat professions.

Laser Sniper:
1+4 (Agi and Ser) from (Dmg)
+ 3 (Agi) +3*5 (Cour)+3*2 (Dex) + 2 (Perc) + 1 (Ser)+ 3 (CR) + 4*4 (coolness) + 5*2 (CS) + 3*8 (commando) + 39 (Rifle) + 8 (WH) from (Hit)
= 132

Whipper:
7 (Agi) + 5*3 (MC) + 4 (Ser) from Dmg
+ 2 (Agi) + 3 (Str) + 3 (CR) + 4*2 (CS) + 10*3 (MC) + 8 (WH) + 3*5 (Cour) + 2*2 (Dex) + 2 (Perc) + 1 (Ser)
= 102

Whipper has 6 Bravado, so if Bravado contributed a whopping 5 hp/1600 (same as courage), Whipping would give the same ultimate HP as Laser Sniper.

Interesting.

On the other hand, the 24 hp factor contributed by Commando to Sniper isn't really accessible to most players... so if Bravado contributed 1/1600, it would be about equal IMO.

Swordsman:
7 (Str) + 5*3 (MC) + 4 (Ser) from Dmg
+ 2 (Agi) + 4 (Str) + 5 (CR) + 4*2 (CS) + 3*8 (Commando) + 9*3 (MC) + 5*4 (Coolness) + 4*5 (Cour) + 2*2 (Dex) + 2 (Perc) + 1 (Ser)
= 137

Swordsmen (and women ) use rather different skills, adding Coolness and Commando to the skillset, but losing Weapons Handling. It also includes 7 Bravado, so giving Bravado health benefits would put it rather above sniper.

This assumes the volume equivalent for attributes is 40 as my tests seem to indicate, rather than the 20 that the Pro Standing formula requires. It also assumes that the relative volume gain for the two types of combat are the same.

I think i will submit a support case about the bravado issue. Alertness is a bit different because it's only used in defense, but Bravado not giving HP seems to be an oversight that negatively impacts melee or, at least, whipper. Actually, whipper missing Coolness and Commando both is rather odd. Perhaps that's the error.

 

[Coffee]

Actually, based on the results in my thread on skill gain ratio, we can assign a "hp factor" to the different combat professions.

Laser Sniper:
1+4 (Agi and Ser) from (Dmg)
+ 3 (Agi) +3*5 (Cour)+3*2 (Dex) + 2 (Perc) + 1 (Ser)+ 3 (CR) + 4*4 (coolness) + 5*2 (CS) + 3*8 (commando) + 39 (Rifle) + 8 (WH) from (Hit)
= 132

Whipper:
7 (Agi) + 5*3 (MC) + 4 (Ser) from Dmg
+ 2 (Agi) + 3 (Str) + 3 (CR) + 4*2 (CS) + 10*3 (MC) + 8 (WH) + 3*5 (Cour) + 2*2 (Dex) + 2 (Perc) + 1 (Ser)
= 102

Whipper has 6 Bravado, so if Bravado contributed a whopping 5 hp/1600 (same as courage), Whipping would give the same ultimate HP as Laser Sniper.

Interesting.

On the other hand, the 24 hp factor contributed by Commando to Sniper isn't really accessible to most players... so if Bravado contributed 1/1600, it would be about equal IMO.

Swordsman:
7 (Str) + 5*3 (MC) + 4 (Ser) from Dmg
+ 2 (Agi) + 4 (Str) + 5 (CR) + 4*2 (CS) + 3*8 (Commando) + 9*3 (MC) + 5*4 (Coolness) + 4*5 (Cour) + 2*2 (Dex) + 2 (Perc) + 1 (Ser)
= 137

Swordsmen (and women ) use rather different skills, adding Coolness and Commando to the skillset, but losing Weapons Handling. It also includes 7 Bravado, so giving Bravado health benefits would put it rather above sniper.

This assumes the volume equivalent for attributes is 40 as my tests seem to indicate, rather than the 20 that the Pro Standing formula requires. It also assumes that the relative volume gain for the two types of combat are the same.

I think i will submit a support case about the bravado issue. Alertness is a bit different because it's only used in defense, but Bravado not giving HP seems to be an oversight that negatively impacts melee or, at least, whipper. Actually, whipper missing Coolness and Commando both is rather odd. Perhaps that's the error.

Something I haven't really looked at in detail, but you may have more info about with the tt study you're doing. I noticed that Swordsman has less total skills contributing to the DMG proffession. Also that Agility seems to give a much greater contribution to DMG. With that being the case (also Kill Strike contributes 10% and not 11%) is it theortically quicker to unlock KS with swordsman if you have less skill areas to raise? (Basing that on the tt spread of skill gain.) The tt total gain would have to be the same between proffessions to hold true, but may not be the case. What are your thoughts on that?

Edit: oops... meant Strength contributes more to swordsman dmg than agility does to ranged dmg.

 

[Doer]

Something I haven't really looked at in detail, but you may have more info about with the tt study you're doing. I noticed that Swordsman has less total skills contributing to the DMG proffession. Also that Agility seems to give a much greater contribution to DMG. With that being the case (also Kill Strike contributes 10% and not 11%) is it theortically quicker to unlock KS with swordsman if you have less skill areas to raise? (Basing that on the tt spread of skill gain.) The tt total gain would have to be the same between proffessions to hold true, but may not be the case. What are your thoughts on that?

Edit: oops... meant Strength contributes more to swordsman dmg than agility does to ranged dmg.

Yes, i'd say that's a fair statement. If we randomly pick a skill to add to from among the possibilities and add a constant (at least on average) volume to it each time (which seems a decent model of how it really happens), a profession with less skills will raise faster than one with more -- all other things being equal.

 

[LeeLoo Faith]

Jimmy, sorry for delay. I even did write down Dexerity, just forgot to post it

It was 2709!

 

[Jimmy B]

Jimmy, sorry for delay. I even did write down Dexerity, just forgot to post it

It was 2709!

lol thanks Leeloo!

The numbers still come out a little low then. The decimal part of the attributes could push it up a little bit though and its very close. It could indicate we've got something a little low, maybe FD, but we'll be able to deduce more when you've skilled FD a bit more!

 

[Doer]

Right, I've added the numbers for Projectile Launcher Engineer. Thanks Doer for the help

I think they're right although I won't eat my hat if they aren't.

Witte's data forces Int*20=2% and Engi=26%, then Doer's data forces BPC=28%.

A few of the numbers have been reduced from the normal engi percentages to allow EPWT to get an extra 5%. Also BPC (28%) and Manufacture Weapons (9%) appear to have been switched. My gut feeling is that this was a mistake made when MA implemented the VU, can't be sure but its really odd, so I dropped in a Support Case just in case.

Any response from them on that point, Jimmy?

I think i will submit a support case about the bravado issue. Alertness is a bit different because it's only used in defense, but Bravado not giving HP seems to be an oversight that negatively impacts melee or, at least, whipper. Actually, whipper missing Coolness and Commando both is rather odd. Perhaps that's the error.

09 Aug 2007 You wrote:
Hello again

I think perhaps you misunderstood me. I was referring to the design of the skill system, not my own skill history.

As you may know, the assignment of skill contributions to professional standings has been completed by the EU community by chipping and comparison of avatar skills, and two of the assignments for the new Projectile Launcher Engineer profession seem to have been switched unintentionally. It also seems that Bravado may have been overlooked as a skill that should give health. If you could please get a statement from the developers on whether those two apparent mistakes are intentional, I will share it with the other interested members of the community. This is a matter of ongoing concern and a specific answer would resolve it and save you from future questions by others wondering the same. Answering that question also does not require you to reveal any details about the skill system, just that it is implemented as you intended.

Your help in this matter would be much appreciated by the EU community.

13 Aug 2007 Entropia Support:
Hi,

Everything in the skill system is working as intended.

Regards,
Entropia Support

l o l

 

[PrinceYumil]

Couple of quick questions:

1. Metallurgy is listed with the mining skills, but it is said to be only associated with the Metal Engineer profession. However I noticed that Miner and Prospector are unresolved. Is it possible that Metallurgy influences either of these professions?

2. Are there any skills in the game which have individual effects, besides just influencing professions? I heard a few people say that a high engineering skill gives you a higher output per success when crafting; is there any truth to this? If not, does that mean the only difference between an uber crafter and a beginner is how often t hey succeed, and not how big of a hof they get?

 

[Pretender]

Couple of quick questions:

1. Metallurgy is listed with the mining skills, but it is said to be only associated with the Metal Engineer profession. However I noticed that Miner and Prospector are unresolved. Is it possible that Metallurgy influences either of these professions?

2. Are there any skills in the game which have individual effects, besides just influencing professions? I heard a few people say that a high engineering skill gives you a higher output per success when crafting; is there any truth to this? If not, does that mean the only difference between an uber crafter and a beginner is how often t hey succeed, and not how big of a hof they get?

1: maybe. we need someone to confirm this as of yet.

2: bit out of context, ill try to explain.

if you have ever crafted (even filters) then you will know that there is a quantity/condition slider. if you have no skills at all, you will see that, if you slide that bar to condition, the yellow/green bar on the left will go lower and lower and go more and more red.

basically, as your crafting skills grow, you can push that slider more and more towards condition without loosing the green stuff. the more green the bar is, the higher the chance of you manufacturing a particular item. however, if you create an item with a condition bar, the higher the quality (=condition) bar is, the higher the potential TT outcome. however, to push that bar to condtion completely, requires quite the amount of skills, if you want to keep the bar green (depending on both the level, and the quality rating of the blueprint, with the exeption of L bp's (blueprints with a x amount of tries before it disapears, they only depend on lvl and the bar, (afaik).

due to the higher chance of failure (and if no-green bar they happen often), alot more get's send into the so-called lootpool. however, upon a succes you will get a high condition item, (meaning, if crafting limited items, if pushed towards condition you will need less residue, in turn meaning that you will have lest cost to manufacture, and dus a potential greater profit), there is a bigger chance of a Hall Of Fame loot, or even an All Time High, but that is the same as the difference between hunting atrox young and hogglo stalker chance of All Time High. basically, you need better skills and equipment...


hope this clears the confusion a bit... (altho you are probably even more confused now)