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Is Evade really effective ?

C

CozMoDan

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Herco Coz Mann
I am a lvl 53 evader and a lvl 22 sweat gather and my bud is a lvl 20 evader and lvl 11 sweat gather. For fun I was sweating with him and I will tell the truth he seemed get hit about the same as me and gathered more sweat that I. We were sweating sabakumas. The subaks seem to even hit me more than him. To me it really appears that evade has no affect nor does sweat lvls on how much or how little to get hit or can sweat. It appears the algorithms do not take in to consideration levels at all.

Just wondering.
 
Evade will lower your defense costs and allow you to hunt larger mobs efficiently and effectively. Instead of stopping to heal while the mob regens and decays your armor, you will be killing it. Evade is especially important for competing in Mayhem at the highest levels for these reasons. Less time spent healing means more time collecting points. Go hunt a mob with 20 levels higher than your evade, then go hunt a mob 20 levels under your evade and you'll see a large difference in how many times you're hit and how high your repair costs are.

Its very possible both you and your mate hunting the Sabas both have an evade higher than the mob you were sweating.

There certainly are diminishing returns on evade once your evader is higher than the level of the mob you hunt.

Cheers
 
There is nothing random in this game. In your case it was because you had a positive result than from your friend, therefore the mob hits you more often... the game wants to take what it gave you.

I've had moments like yours when I reveal the game to a new player. Until I take a big multi, I treat the student next to me because there is no protection, etc. But the moment I hit a good TT multy, the picture changes and the effect is like yours.

Apart from all the other nonsense, there is a personal fuck from the game, therefore so much players are annoying and jump spot by spot to play for others pool... there is nothing accidental... but the benefit from the Defensive skills at all is good. Тhese incident moments are not most of time in the hunt runs and high-level defense is definitely worth it and there is a difference.

The last time I test my defensive skills was on an atrox 1 h hunting run. It cost me under 20 peks for healing with adj resto, naked. My evade is currently around level 30.
 
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Ok, your evade is 53, his is 20. Sabakuma danger levels are only 2 on the lower maturities and 8 on the highest.

Go play hunter/fapper with Eviscerator gen 1&2 (danger level 26 and 30)
kill 20 while he heals you.

Then have him hunt 20 with the EXACT same weapon(s) and armor while you heal him with the exact same fap.

Come back to this thread after you do this experiment.
 
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Old research showed that generally you will get the most effectiveness out of evade when you are [mob lvl] + 5 levels of evade (profession level of course). After this, increasing evade levels will not benefit much at all. Since Saba are so low, you both outrank the level of benefit, so will not see much difference in your avatars getting hit (randomness aside).

There are some mobs that have a different curve, for example Hogglo did not follow this [mob lvl] + 5 rule. So as always there are exceptions.

I don't have a link to the post that shows the research, but its in here somewhere from about 10 years ago.
 
schneiw said:
Old research showed that generally you will get the most effectiveness out of evade when you are [mob lvl] + 5 levels of evade (profession level of course). After this, increasing evade levels will not benefit much at all. Since Saba are so low, you both outrank the level of benefit, so will not see much difference in your avatars getting hit (randomness aside).

There are some mobs that have a different curve, for example Hogglo did not follow this [mob lvl] + 5 rule. So as always there are exceptions.

I don't have a link to the post that shows the research, but its in here somewhere from about 10 years ago.
Click to expand...

Exactly right.
 
I think MsPudding said it best.

You were both maxed on them , and you just had the random luck of getting hit more than him.

With a larger sample it would have equaled out.
 
WoW you guys are so smart and what you have said all makes sense. I love this game (playing 14 years) . But, I am not a student of the game just a player. I am way to old (born 1946) to understand all that goes on but with help like you all is a boon to understanding.

Thanks very much to all .

BTW I sell Mission Bones-sorry couldn't resists a plug for my bizz. :)
 
Yeah, as most have said, you both are maxed on that mob for higher evade skills to benefit further.

It's gauged from Lv + 5 for a non-regen mob, however, for regen mobs, the formula is like Lv / 2 + 5.

I posted this info on the forum a long time ago; everyone just crucified me as I had no empirical data.

Plus these formulas for evade only works out most times for calypso creature and not elsewhere in EU.
 
The only working formula is the dynamic rate in the game, which is decisive for this case as well.

If you do not accept that mobs have common sense instead of "Artificial Intelligence", then the definition of their mood depends on...

If {MA is hungry} (hit harder and often)
Else (the hits should be weak and rare to mislead players)

Here there is more about conditional constructions on which the behavior of AI depends.


Put X, where the X is Dynamic rate... "X * (your calculations)"... in front of each of your calculations in order for the statement of the theoretical calculation to be true. And accept that X is different every 5-120 mins.

Everything else is half truth.. like this one :whistle:
 
schneiw said:
Old research showed that generally you will get the most effectiveness out of evade when you are [mob lvl] + 5 levels of evade (profession level of course). After this, increasing evade levels will not benefit much at all. Since Saba are so low, you both outrank the level of benefit, so will not see much difference in your avatars getting hit (randomness aside).

There are some mobs that have a different curve, for example Hogglo did not follow this [mob lvl] + 5 rule. So as always there are exceptions.

I don't have a link to the post that shows the research, but its in here somewhere from about 10 years ago.
Click to expand...

This theory, and variations on it, get continually repeated on the forum.

It is nonsense.

It is true that mobs appear to get "maxed" at a certain level, after which further evader/dodger gains won't give any (or only very little) extra benefit, but you can't work it out from the mob level. It varies widely.
 
Oleg said:
This theory, and variations on it, get continually repeated on the forum.

It is nonsense.

It is true that mobs appear to get "maxed" at a certain level, after which further evader/dodger gains won't give any (or only very little) extra benefit, but you can't work it out from the mob level. It varies widely.
Click to expand...

So how do you work it out then Oleg...?

Until there is another (simple) way to work it out, I'm gonna go with the +5 level, even though it isn't always accurate. I just don't see how else to do it without getting numerous other avatars involved with varying levels of Dodge/Evade and doing dozens of hours of research...
 
Legends said:
So how do you work it out then Oleg...?

Until there is another (simple) way to work it out, I'm gonna go with the +5 level, even though it isn't always accurate. I just don't see how else to do it without getting numerous other avatars involved with varying levels of Dodge/Evade and doing dozens of hours of research...
Click to expand...
take a look at entropia wiki, higly detailed there.
Not as simple as just mob level, some may hit more often even with higher evade level. I think Hogglos were used as the mobs one could not evade that easily.
I also use as a thumb rule the "highest preoffeion level evader -5", but it is just a thumb rule and can vary quite a bit without any scientific explanation.
Thumg rules simply worlk most of the time from experience on what one hunts. Change the habit and hunt completely different mobs and you might get a completely different experience.
 
Legends said:
So how do you work it out then Oleg...?

Until there is another (simple) way to work it out, I'm gonna go with the +5 level, even though it isn't always accurate. I just don't see how else to do it without getting numerous other avatars involved with varying levels of Dodge/Evade and doing dozens of hours of research...
Click to expand...

You can't really work it out, you'd need to do extensive tests on every single mob. It would be pretty pointless anyway. Just try the mob and see what happens. If you keep good records you can compare the reduction in defence costs over time.

There some L50+ mobs which I can happily grind without too much trouble, and L30-something mobs that are very hard work.
 
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Oleg said:
You can't really work it out, you'd need to do extensive tests on every single mob. It would be pretty pointless anyway. Just try the mob and see what happens. If you keep good records you can compare the reduction in defence costs over time.
Click to expand...

Yeah so I don't think you should say "It is nonsense" ...

The fact is, it is generally true and the best way, imho, to communicate the principle that Evade/Dodge gains beyond a certain threshold is relatively pointless. It seems to be true that for a majority of mobs in EU at this time, 5 levels is where that threshold is.

Again, just don't say it's nonsense, it's not nonsense.
 
Oleg said:
It is. Honestly.
Click to expand...

It's not nonsense at all. Here's what that word means since obviously you have no clue:

index.php

​
So if I said this for example:

Evade is proportionate to the minus the health in between the legs of the sin to the degree that the toes match, minus the hair.

THAT would be nonsense.

There's a number of statements you could have made which would have been correct, such as:
- This theory isn't accurate in many cases
- This theory is not really correct
- This theory is only a rule of thumb and can lead you astray so be careful.

Any of those would have been fine. Unfortunately, for you to say:"It is nonsense" is really ... well... nonsense to be honest.
 
there is also a agression lvl if you scan a mob saba is medium and hogglo high.
maybe try sweating mobs with lower agression lvl next time.

and yes sweat lvl is just the ammount your avatar did 'sweat' no real benefit.
 
Oleg said:
This theory, and variations on it, get continually repeated on the forum.

It is nonsense.

It is true that mobs appear to get "maxed" at a certain level, after which further evader/dodger gains won't give any (or only very little) extra benefit, but you can't work it out from the mob level. It varies widely.
Click to expand...
I am afraid Oleg is correct about variation wise. Not all mobs are the same so it can't be completely generalized. For example the big Marcimex on cyclops depths, maturity hunter - chaser L82 - L119. Hits me way LESS than they should compared to other mobs on similar lvls. FYI: I am only lvl 61 evader. So definitely not "maxed". And I can get several MISS/Evades in a row from L119 Marcimex and able to kill it. While on cyrene a scout bot L5 hits me almost every time.
 
il said:
There is also an aggression lvl if you scan a mob saba is a medium and hogglo high.
Maybe try sweating mobs with lower aggression lvl next time.

And yes sweat lvl is just the amount your avatar did 'sweat' no real benefit.
Click to expand...
For me, aggression level is an indication that the creature has the "potential" to give more than usual skill gains. A good example? Araneatrox.
PS, when commenting, try to stick to Calypso mobs where possible, we are diverting to an area not relevant and is simply non-sense to do so.
 
Oleg is correct, mob level is not a good indication of how often you can evade it.

It has been known for a long time, I don't know where people get such theories.
 
Yawn
" So as always there are exceptions. "

That's why I added the above, as I knew the experts would come out with their pitchforks. Its worked for me as a generalization, so ./shrug
 
schneiw said:
Yawn
" So as always there are exceptions. "

That's why I added the above, as I knew the experts would come out with their pitchforks. Its worked for me as a generalization, so ./shrug
Click to expand...

Yeah there wasn't really anything wrong with your post, Oleg just decided to attack it for some reason... And then to add insult to injury, he did not provide any useful information of his own.

So he comes here, invalidates what someone else has contributed, says it's 'nonsense', then leaves it at that without providing any useful info himself.

Pathetic really..
 
both sides are making a point here. The +5 rule isnt entirely off the table, i find its part of the art to find the right mob where it applies, but by no means it applies to all mob and is probably very dependant on your own pro standings and activities. Fast weapon speed seems to be a big factor in the question if you get hit or not, maybe even a certain smooth hunting-rythm with slower weapons, that seem to deflect dmg better.

Also mob werent born all the same day, many got changed over time. There are probably as many different mob generations as item generations out there, both kinda seem to reflect each others aspects, resulting in the balancing of the game. And i am absolutely sure that mob-level does not solely reflect hit level of the mob, there are tons of aspects integrated in mob-level, strenghs and weaknesses like speed, aggro range, hp, size, dmg type, fast regeneration and such.

The mobs with equal hitlevel and moblevel are probably those which are best to read for the player and they seem to be the most popular. Many players share that part of the way up, but the curve will eventually change out of the players spectrum, he will grow out of that mob or the size of it.
 
il said:
there is also a agression lvl if you scan a mob saba is medium and hogglo high.
maybe try sweating mobs with lower agression lvl next time.

and yes sweat lvl is just the ammount your avatar did 'sweat' no real benefit.
Click to expand...

I'm just posting to say "Hi il!!!"

that is all.

OK maybe adding, glad you are OK and the big bad didn't get you. Myself and Az are fine too. Not heard from DD for years though.
 
Awesome wissy! Good to hear.. im kinda stuck on the countryside taking care of my mom.

Your in EP now? Have you heard of Dino?

- back to topic/

I would assume there are several factors that contribute to the accuracy of attacks.
Very probably hp/maturity and threat lvl as well.
 
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