Loot 2.0 Balancing

Bones

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Have been wracking my brain as to how they might achieve a higher return for hunters without cutting into their profits.

One possible way to achieve this might be to make weapons damage align with the mobs armor class.

Myself , my dominant weapon class is mindforce specifically pyro and electric. If a mob were to take more damage or at least the damage specified by my weapon , and other weapons that didn't do the correct type of attack might do less efficient killing.

Would this open a lot more cross skilling , forcing more weapons to be relevant and eliminating a one size fits all approach that is used now?

Just a thought
 
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id like it too to see armor classes on mobs become relevant in some way. would definitely increase the market for limited weapons.
like one mob is best killable with melee, another with pyro, another with shrapnel damage and so on. would add a good chunk of variety.
 

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One possible way to achieve this might be to make weapons damage align with the mobs armor class.

I was thinking this as well. As they described loot 2.0 with the comment "a wider range of damage output and special effects" and the explanation with the armor changes, it seems like they will focus (at least a little) on making different damage types matter when hunting. How they would balance this, if this is the case, I do not know. It would be cool if, for example, lightning/acid damage gives free armor penetrating additional damage damage or free damage over time on robots. But this would force players with expensive UL gear to hunt only a certain type of mob to feel that they get the most optimal loot... This would however in a way explain what they mean by increasing the net loot and that skills do matter.

I find the "economy rating parameter" both interesting and scary, since they describe it as a tool that influence loot calculations. The first thing that came to my mind was "magic find" (MF) that some hack & Slash type of games have. The developers might want to change the looting patterns with adding this type parameter(s) to different tools/weapons. A hint to this being the case might be that unique ring that gave 25% more "out of ordinary" mining finds. This could mean that different tools can give different type of loot or maybe have higher chance to drop rare loots. :)
 

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if mindark cuts the profits of the 2% exploiters the loot for 98% of game will be better.
 

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I think there will be a greater return by eliminating a bit of the "luck" of the very lucky players. (That is: firstly, by returning the money in proportion to the investment, and secondly, using the "luck" calculated by the algorithm of the game. On that way, players who invest more will not go bankrupt so quickly)
 

Fiona Simmons

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My interpretation of loot 2.0 is :

A potion of your Armor and fap decay is returned in loot. Also the dmg/pec is not longer relevant for your return since weapons with lower dmg/pec can have a higher "new eco" rating and returning more overall loot.

So while a person hunting in ghost armor using an mod ek 2600 and a ul mid tier gun will see a slightly increase in returns those who hunt naked with mod fap and imk2 + full stacked ring buffs might see a slightly worse return overall wich is most likely still better than the returns from the person using the ghost armor.

Braindead people using shadow armor with very low skills and some kind of uneco fap and a swine deluxe might see even a moderate better return now :D
 

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firstly, by returning the money in proportion to the investment, and secondly, using the "luck" calculated by the algorithm of the game. On that way, players who invest more will not go bankrupt so quickly)

This is a slippery slope. This game has no set price tag, you pay as you go and as little or as much as you're comfortable with. This is a big part of its attraction. If I knew I get shafted when depositing $5 for the benefit of another who pays $500 for that very reason, I'd run the other way and tell everybody to avoid it. No, the risk/reward ratio can not have different tiers. Besides, the variety of efficiency in gear and the resulting price tags already have that effect.
 

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I had thought this too. Must need to match the weapon to the mob weakness to be most efficient.

Just as we used to have to match our armour to the mob attack damage (should still do this, but I see people wearing Gremlin for all mobs and I just *rolleyes*. no wonder players moan about their return if they gonna do stupid things like this.

Using the right armour for the mob used to be a big thing. acid protection for acid mobs, electric for electric mobs etc. ow everyone I see just has the biggest armour they can afford.

Glad I kept my Shogun, Paladin, Gome, Kobold, Rascal etc etc from the old days.

Someone needs to start maufacturing the old craftable armours for the newbros to wear...
 

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My thoughts are pretty much in line with Fiona's thoughts... they try to close the gap between eco and uneco hunting (as in eco hunters will still get better loot than uneco hunters, but the difference will be [much] lower than it is today) and also to support the "lazy and/or not so smart" people (who can't be arsed to check external sites and compare exact DPPs, but could easily compare two eco rating if displayed in clear in game). So my guess is that the "eco rating" will be totally in line with the DPP, as in comparing any two weapons the one with better DPP would also have better eco, and this is just a way to make said metric more easily visible.

So:
- "lazy any not so smart" people will be spoon feed more info so they can be a bit less "not so smart"
- furthermore, the penalty for being "lazy and not so smart" will be lowered and the bonus for "min-maxing" would also be lowered, so all our results will fall somewhere closer to each other

TL;DR: If you're reading this, you'll most likely get slightly lower results, so the 98% "lazy and not so smart" who don't even bother to check Entropedia or forums can get slightly better results.

... just my 2 cents ...
 

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MA takes a cut from decay... not TT loss or anything like it.

However, if the loot returns across every single profession goes up by 1-3%... then naturally MA would be losing 1-3% profits unless it was subsidized through additional turnover. MA doesn't make money when you get sub-100% tt returns.. they make money whenever you decay.
 

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if mindark cuts the profits of the 2% exploiters the loot for 98% of game will be better.

can you give more info without giving any names :)
 

sostoned

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can you give more info without giving any names :)

theres massive exploiting goin on by a small part of the players, like only shooting around waves, hoarding and so on.

they use the non random part of the game

If thats cutted out there will be more for the rest, exploiters will not like it.

Thats how mindark is goin to give better loot, less leakage

its goin too far to explain everything, mindark knows and they are trying to fix it

They also say it in their post, they gonna stop loot waves. Thats a huge example from knowledge that helps a small part of players and costs a lot for majority.

Its all about redistributing


so dont expect special shit, its just changing the loot system to make it more fair

Theres more though, the way how loot is calculated will be changed too, makes it possible to do more stuff without making the game really unfair.

the economy bar and armor calculation are examples for that, make it more logical and theres less leakage.
 

the-unknown

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id like it too to see armor classes on mobs become relevant in some way. would definitely increase the market for limited weapons.
like one mob is best killable with melee, another with pyro, another with shrapnel damage and so on. would add a good chunk of variety.

If that happens, I will expect less people to take part in events.

Imagine, if you want the best chance of loot at an event mob, you need a weapon of "X" class. Either those weapons will be very expensive during the event, or it may be a weapon type in which you don't have much skills in.

In such cases, some / alot of people who usually may have taken part in the event may just decide it's not worth it.
 

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If that happens, I will expect less people to take part in events.

Imagine, if you want the best chance of loot at an event mob, you need a weapon of "X" class. Either those weapons will be very expensive during the event, or it may be a weapon type in which you don't have much skills in.

In such cases, some / alot of people who usually may have taken part in the event may just decide it's not worth it.

no reason why enhancers can't be added to change damage type, ie corrosive enhancer I-X, convert 10% of damage to 10% acid, really low break rate, or maybe even timed
 

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no reason why enhancers can't be added to change damage type, ie corrosive enhancer I-X, convert 10% of damage to 10% acid, really low break rate, or maybe even timed

I agree with the expansion of enhancers , this particular system works quite well and expanding it would be good for all.
 
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If that happens, I will expect less people to take part in events.

Imagine, if you want the best chance of loot at an event mob, you need a weapon of "X" class. Either those weapons will be very expensive during the event, or it may be a weapon type in which you don't have much skills in.

In such cases, some / alot of people who usually may have taken part in the event may just decide it's not worth it.

so basically you are saying that it will be exactly like it is now? where you need one for the maybe 5 to 10 guns to win the events and outside of that you dont have any chance anyway? thats the way it is now. i dont see any change here. apart from maybe less idiots participating that dont have a chance anyway and thus the ubers loot a lil less peds. but less competition means they get their prices cheaper as well. win win.
 

The Jetman

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I agree with the expansion of enhancers , this particular system works quite well and expanding it would be good for all.

imo changes to the enhancer/tiering system should be a priority. the current system only benefits the top players/gun especially when the MU is taken into account. there should be more of a reason to tier guns like Bukin and Pixie armor
 

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I'm not sure if the new system is intended to give higher average returns, but if we assume it is, then economics tell us that if people are given a higher income, they use that income on buying/consuming things, which is beneficial to the economy overall because the money flows around more.

In EU the likely result of that would be that people spend/lose the same amount of money, but over a longer period, so people who might currently play, say, 20 hours a month, might now be able to play 60 hours a month, for the same cost (made-up numbers to illustrate the point).

All of that is beneficial to the market overall because it increases the overall amount of market activity, so, in theory, more stuff will be bought and sold, which should - again, in theory - create opportunities for people supplying the market.

Two disclaimers to this:

a) EU economics aren't the same as real world economics because EU is such a closed and tightly controlled system (nothing like capitalism, despite what some people will tell you), so whether this would work as expected here is uncertain;

b) Some people here will dismiss this as "socialist fucktard" thinking or similar, because they still believe in ridiculous trickle-down theories that were discredited 30 years ago, but you can safely ignore them.
 

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so basically you are saying that it will be exactly like it is now? where you need one for the maybe 5 to 10 guns to win the events and outside of that you dont have any chance anyway? thats the way it is now. i dont see any change here. apart from maybe less idiots participating that dont have a chance anyway and thus the ubers loot a lil less peds. but less competition means they get their prices cheaper as well. win win.

It's not so much just for events.

If system says melee is better loot for this mob and rifle is worst for this mob, let's assume that base loot is 1.0, melee gets 1.1 and rifle gets 0.9 loot.

What if you are using mixed weapons? Rifle for tagging and melee for close range? I guess in mixed mode, the loot bonus / negative can be related to the amount of damage done with both weapons on a mob.

How does that work in a team hunt? Will melee users get bonus 0.1 loot in every team loot and will rifle users get 0.1 deducted from the loot? It becomes alot more complex once you add in team mechanics, shared loot, etc.
 

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Have been wracking my brain as to how they might achieve a higher return for hunters without cutting into their profits.

One possible way to achieve this might be to make weapons damage align with the mobs armor class.


Just a thought

Not sure how creating armour classes will effect returns.
But I have been having the same idea for over 10 years now.
This would be far more interesting.
Now you only have to adept your armour for the mob you're fighting. But you should also be able to match your weapon against a mob.

An acid dealing mob would be more resistant do aceid dealing weapons. And feffoids for example would take less damage from cold, but maybe extra from fire dmg.

This would created a far more vivid market for different weapon types.
 

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I'm not sure if the new system is intended to give higher average returns, but if we assume it is, then economics tell us that if people are given a higher income, they use that income on buying/consuming things, which is beneficial to the economy overall because the money flows around more.

In EU the likely result of that would be that people spend/lose the same amount of money, but over a longer period, so people who might currently play, say, 20 hours a month, might now be able to play 60 hours a month, for the same cost (made-up numbers to illustrate the point).

All of that is beneficial to the market overall because it increases the overall amount of market activity, so, in theory, more stuff will be bought and sold, which should - again, in theory - create opportunities for people supplying the market.

Two disclaimers to this:

a) EU economics aren't the same as real world economics because EU is such a closed and tightly controlled system (nothing like capitalism, despite what some people will tell you), so whether this would work as expected here is uncertain;

b) Some people here will dismiss this as "socialist fucktard" thinking or similar, because they still believe in ridiculous trickle-down theories that were discredited 30 years ago, but you can safely ignore them.

I rarely post anymore but I have to point out:

When individuals are given a higher income, they spend more money, yes. But when the collective is given a higher income, the only outcome is inflation (spending power stays static).

Now, this is different in EU as you say due to the closed system, but also the way items are generated here. Higher productivity does not mean reduction in end product costs (as these are usually rare, looted items, such as imk2 [insert any unL item here]). It does mean larger supply of production materials.

So what you actually get in EU (and what has been hurting the economy here since day dot) is inflation of unobtainables and deflation of obtainables when player activity is increased. Of course, as many have mentioned, a healthier demand for crafted items (I still maintain these should be ancillary not primary items) helps to mask this effect.

Overall, overall loot % tweaking is not what I'm interested to see how it works, as it will be the same as always over the last 15 years. What will be interesting is the ability to manipulate your own returns via gear, creature etc. Where before we had just 1 parameter (DPP), which made certain items/setups unbeatable (and caused issues when you were hunting against them in the same lootpool or shared mob) now it has been inferred we have more parameters to alter when finding optimal setups.
 
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Xavier_Jr

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This is a slippery slope. This game has no set price tag, you pay as you go and as little or as much as you're comfortable with. This is a big part of its attraction. If I knew I get shafted when depositing $5 for the benefit of another who pays $500 for that very reason, I'd run the other way and tell everybody to avoid it. No, the risk/reward ratio can not have different tiers. Besides, the variety of efficiency in gear and the resulting price tags already have that effect.

I do not think like you. If everything must to be like it is now, probably, you would not be analyzing the Loot 2.0 release now.
 

Hungwel

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An acid dealing mob would be more resistant do aceid dealing weapons. And feffoids for example would take less damage from cold, but maybe extra from fire dmg.

EU is turning into Pokemon "You attack Feffoid with Combustive Attack Chip VI (L) with super effective damage :)
Next step turn based attacks.

Only Joking I'm really looking forward to this Loot 2.0
Im currently at work all day today, If someone could link Adjusted Nem & Adjusted MK2 "My setup" :)
So i can see if there are any changes while I'm at work that would be amazing.
 

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EU is turning into Pokemon "You attack Feffoid with Combustive Attack Chip VI (L) with super effective damage :)
Next step turn based attacks.

Dont know about pokemon. Never heard of it. :silly2:

But it would make more sense story telling wise and it would create more depth into weapon selection. :rolleyes:


Turn based? hmmm...actually I like turn based games a lot.

I remember fallout 1. Nice turnbased platform game (or at least the combat was turn based) which they later turned into a first person shooter like all other games.
 

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DPP was never the only parameter.

This is from their own dev notes:

A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe.

Yes, DPS matters, yes right time right place, but it's all absolutely insignificant when compared to running high DPP.
 

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This is from their own dev notes:

A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe.

Yes, DPS matters, yes right time right place, but it's all absolutely insignificant when compared to running high DPP.
Xen is referring to other decay also being variables. The new system will hopefully discourage prote/slow mob exploiting.

Previous loot system was Loot=P(t)*[a*(damage)+b*armordecay+c*healvalue]+residual.

Overkill was a myth propagated by players. But now it will be something, apparently.

Biggest changes here are how armor will work and how healing cost is reimbursed (if at all).

Hoping they don't fuck people with expensive guns like they fucked people with expensive faps (i.e restoration chips).
 
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Xen is referring to other decay also being variables. The new system will hopefully discourage prote/slow mob exploiting.

Previous loot system was Loot=P(t)*[a*(damage)+b*armordecay+c*healvalue]+residual.

Overkill was a myth propagated by players. But now it will be something, apparently.

Biggest changes here are how armor will work and how healing cost is reimbursed (if at all).

Hoping they don't fuck people with expensive guns like they fucked people with expensive faps (i.e restoration chips).

what do you mean with overkill is a myth? you telling me i would get normal, decay worthy loot resulting in a normal tt return when im blowign away punys with a doa strikehammer? if so then you obviously have never hunted in this whole game...
and also: most tests have shown that healing (self healing and not mob healing / regen) is not returned in loot.
 

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Xen is referring to other decay also being variables. The new system will hopefully discourage prote/slow mob exploiting.

Previous loot system was Loot=P(t)*[a*(damage)+b*armordecay+c*healvalue]+residual.

Overkill was a myth propagated by players. But now it will be something, apparently.

Biggest changes here are how armor will work and how healing cost is reimbursed (if at all).

Hoping they don't fuck people with expensive guns like they fucked people with expensive faps (i.e restoration chips).

I'd expect to be fucked with, and for what I could tell from the devnotes nothing changes (in playstyle) as far as overkill, dps, etc (min/max them as appropriate).

I hope the "economy" figure stated on weapons is actually dynamic and not static however (i.e. refers to your personal efficiency rather than imk2 = 100, swine deluxe = 1 for example) otherwise I struggle to see the point of it over just writing the decay so dpp can be calculated by item stats.
 

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what do you mean with overkill is a myth? you telling me i would get normal, decay worthy loot resulting in a normal tt return when im blowign away punys with a doa strikehammer? if so then you obviously have never hunted in this whole game...
and also: most tests have shown that healing (self healing and not mob healing / regen) is not returned in loot.


Puny's is a bad example since SH>>puny hp. The effect was always more easily measurable with mid size hp mobs (1-2k) where it would actually make sense using a finisher.

The P(t) value is the loot return matrix, which is more complicated than transferring mob hp and saying that a mob with 10 times the hp gives 10 times the loot.
 
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