MA should indeed pay attention to this issue:

[Joser]

And obviously we can't convince the fanboys/girls of anything either.

So what you're telling me is that you'll willingly disregard any tests, all the math and all the science behind the tests just because you "feel" something and you know others that "feel" the same way as you? Bizarre.

I guess it's also not strange that people involved in a computer world that go based on feeling are often left frustrated.

 

[sob]

And obviously we can't convince the fanboys/girls of anything either.

This is starting to sound like a religous debate

So because one chose to rely on experiments instead of hearsay you are labeled a fanboy/girl?

Ever heard of a logical fallacy?

 

[Pirx Danford]

TOTALLY WRONG. I'm heading off topic here folks sorry. The current engine Gamebryo is a very powerfull engine. The engine now has lightspeed which means content can be worked on by any number of artists and coders live. Thats correct live. Meaning that if they wanted too they could add new mobs/loot/weapons anything without a reboot of the servers. The engine is c++ based the same as Cryengine 2 and also works with lua and flash mods the same. Blaming the engine for lack of content is again totally wrong. On the plus side the cryengine handle graphics alot better and its terrain editor is far better. Content is not down to anything other than the company making the game. The tools cannot be blamed here its deffo the craftsmen using them. That been said I love the game thats why I'm here.

And are those upgrades of the system free of cost to an original buyer?

Also you talk about that changes can be done in real time and such,
but is the editor improved?
Because real time changes are of no use when the editor is as crappy as it was

 

[Wollongong]

Yup, you base your opinion on prejudice and hearsay. I base my opinion on dozens of extensive tests by multiply players.



Do you consider buying a beer at a bar an investment?



Buying hunting gear is not under debate. Spending money on hunting is not investing, and nobody (at MA) is claiming that.



Its not bordering a Ponzi scheme because there is no scam. That is an essential property of a ponzi scheme. And about gambling, IMO hunting is indeed very similar. The opinion of MA is irrelevant, they just quote what the law says.

Actually, yes. Many people have stated that it ain't bad that loot sucks, after all, they are spending the money to get the skills, which in the future should bring in more returns.

Spending money in order to acquire something which should generate income is the essence of investing. And as long as the word is that if you skill up, you can get better returns, and even "make money" like MA shouts of the rooftops... the word scam is one which does pop up in my mind once in a while.

 

[Sirhc]

Hunting,mining,and crafting are activities not investments. Skills and gear allow you to perform those activities at less cost by having a better hit rate, extracting more resources, and using higher in demand BPs. It can also allow you to hunt higher end mobs with less decay.
Tangible results of skills in EU are subtle at best. EU IMHO does have some sense of progression though. If everyone could do super well on snables than why move on to the next level and try something new.

I guess match you skills and equipment with the right activity at the right time and better results can happen but no matter what level we all have good and bad streaks in EU. What makes someone successful in EU and investments in gear and skills worth it is how participants utilize the good streaks to deal with the unavoidable bad streaks. It's not an easy thing to do but it can be done.


Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Wollongong]

Personally,
Ive played for 3 years,
I dont deposit much at all,
And my returns have been quite fair i think in terms of what i have deposited,

Yet its nowehere near what i deposited,
I can see a clear rise in return after i have just deposited,
sometimes even globals.

And I have noticed the exact opposite at times. So no, there's no proof in that either. What I do notice is more people speak of bad returns, yet only a few speak of good.

I have never had a hof,
And i dont know if i ever will,

No hof here, never will be either

But I dont think MA need to change anything,

Disagreed

I think too many people expect a return from this game,
If you go to a shop and buy a Chocolate bar,
Your money is then gone,
and even more so once you have eaten the chocolate bar,

I wont go into detail on what the return is
But you can guess,

I totally agree... the return of a chocolate bar is exactly the word describing the returns here.

And I also agree that too many people consider EU a place to make money. I don't expect to make money here, it's entertainment. But the returns need to be such, that I can play the game to the fullest extend for a price which is fair compared to the entertainment value it offers.

And, the topic of this thread, the game needs to be rewarding. Higher skills must give benefit, not just give access to faster spending.

[/quote]
Eu isnt like a casino the odds are diffrent,
If its a casino you want then there is loads around on the internet,

MA is alot more Diffrent,
[/quote]

Yes, the odds of winning are lower than in a casino.

Its a game with an RCE and It really I think down to the individuals luck at the time.

Lol, so not a casino, but down to luck...? Yeah, that makes sense...

Thats just my thoughts anyway.

Sapeian.

I may not agree, but I am glad you shared them with us.

 

[Raffaele Meiers]

It has allready been stated that MA makes their money by tt profit.
...

Where and when?

The only statement I have is about three times marco saying the only thing witch goes to MA is part of the Decay So please give me a link to this statement...

But on Topic, yeah a 90% TT return would be nice, I camped Itumatrox for 9 months. During this time nearly all the Big Loots went to people not regularly hunting that mob, as there was only one real Spawn (E of Solfaris) and the other two places on Calypso nearly does not have any Itumatrox I knew who hunt them, also Entropia Tracker helps today.

I did profit in this year hunting Itumatrox but only because I looted during the drop phase about 4K Ped TT HL12 and also a ESI with more than 100 ped. In TT I surely lost good amount of Peds but the good MU of the HL12's back then helped to turn the losses into a little profit.

 

[ano]

Actually, yes. Many people have stated that it ain't bad that loot sucks, after all, they are spending the money to get the skills, which in the future should bring in more returns.

Spending money in order to acquire something which should generate income is the essence of investing. And as long as the word is that if you skill up, you can get better returns, and even "make money" like MA shouts of the rooftops... the word scam is one which does pop up in my mind once in a while.

You said it yourself. It doesn't mean you will get better returns.

And contrary to your wikipedian democracy of knowledge logic I'd much rather have one person who has done some empirical research describe their findings than "many" making unsubstantiated claims without reason or evidence.

 

[AJack10600]

It has allready been stated that MA makes their money by tt profit. Everything past 100% tt is pure profit for the players. Due to depo's amd recirculating currency, the MU profit is mostly fueled by the players. I don't see why MA can't do a 95% return tt. Then of course, I do not know their internal workings either

If you still believe that after all the discussions on this forum on MA income then I can not help you anymore... MA takes all the money that is deposited and keeps a "pledged liability" on the balancesheet which is the stuff yous still own... look at the accounting on their financial reports and you will understand ...

 

[Ace Flyster]

i believe MA can only gaurentee around 45% of tt values for all players

As a bank, this is kinda standard and higher than most businesses i believe

As for income, stated many times, from decay. Not stated from deposits interest etc

Rgds

Ace

 

[Witte]

Spending money in order to acquire something which should generate income is the essence of investing.

Maybe you should stop focussing on making money. Nobody ever said that killing mobs would make your rich(er). On the contrary, MA claims we pay $1 on average each hour. In other words, you spend money with the knowledge you are likely going to lose it. Calling it an investment is silly, it just isnt.

And as long as the word is that if you skill up, you can get better returns, and even "make money" like MA shouts of the rooftops... the word scam is one which does pop up in my mind once in a while.

Wasn't your complaint that people with high skills and gear get all the money? And now you say its a scam because dispite your skill or gear you lose anyhow?

 

[Robin]

When i first started EU it was from an article i read on an online new site in Sweden.It was "advertised as a way to profit" from an online RPG game.And yes I did profit from it quite a bit.Now however, i stopped profiting.i know that if i continue on i will probably have another cycle of losses and then maybe in the future i will profit again someday.you have to know when to stop and when to start up again if you can;otherwise your gonna get angry and blame everyone else but yourself for your losses.Best thing to do to avoid huge losses is to set EU aside for a bit and go do something else till you feel you can handle it again.

 

[BigBertha]

Ahh shit happens, i have depoed loads of peds ingame and i still doesnt know how to play smart.
Either persons ingame gets 80k-ish plus 25k-ish same day 30 mins later what the heck are we supposed to do? We cant get into a ingame strike..
Even if its unfair that loads of ppl get some ath hofs we cant do anything about it. Or can we?
I believe that Like in Mercurys case he have been depositing more and lost more than lots of us ingame, but rather than quitting and so he gets lots of peds in advance.
I dont aim for an ATH, tho i know it never gonna happen but this is a community that is free to play basis (its our own free will ingame) to play with a gamestyle to loose OR win in the longshot.

I have been low in my game self asteem and i asked some persons ingame if they could help me to change the style and waam i see lots of other opportunities to go straight from zero to a hero..

Some of us might have lost loads of money ingame, but wth... Stay here ingame and do feel free of being happy or a whiner..

It seems very unfair for people whom have been playing 2.5 years but look at the amount of people ingame who have been playing longer than 2.3years... Who never even got a tower in mining or a bigger hof than 3k peds in other things.

 

[valentin]

What i really see MA should do to improve is to be MORE fair!
How fair is it when u hunt snabel 1 year without a global for example and then comes someone for firts time hunting and gets a 1k HoF? oO

Or those rich ***** u know in game seeing hem getting more and more ATH, uber items as if they need them. Grow up MA!!!!

Its no true because if you take 1 hunt on snabels how much ammo and what gear do you need...I can tell you if you want to hunt high level moobs then you need ammo for 700-1200 ped just for ammo to do a single hunt so shure its easyer to get a global then ans just because you got 4-5 globals at the hunt its not often you go with profit.

 

[KeynesAlley]

You said it yourself. It doesn't mean you will get better returns.

And contrary to your wikipedian democracy of knowledge logic I'd much rather have one person who has done some empirical research describe their findings than "many" making unsubstantiated claims without reason or evidence.

Where's all this "empirical research"?

I want to see it.

I bet it wouldn't stand up to real scientific scrutiny.

 

[Indigo Wyrd]

Content - FTW

Back a few pages, someone mention content, or the lack thereof, and that really sums things up well.

The lack of content is what is holding things back so badly.
Combine that with the overwhelming odds already against the player, and you get what we've got right now.

And it's not a matter of implementation - the Gamebryo engine is very easy to implement new content into and ensure it gets into the hands of players.

It's the method by which this is done that, to be blunt, sucks.

Introducing a new item by seeding a (L)imited blueprint into blueprint loots, or the random loot of some upper-leveled mob only ensures these things will end up in the hands of a small percentage of players.

Indeed, the very concept of a (L)imited blueprint is rediculous.
If someone were to give me the design specs of some item and tell me "Oh, by the way, after the 100th time you've followed this diagram it will disintegrate." then I can assure you the first thing that would happen is that diagram would end up in a xerox machine, copied and used, with the original being sealed away for all time... but that's just common sense, which does not apply to EU in any way.

A far better approach:

Seed new items into the already-existing distribution network accessable to everyone: The Trade Terminals and Technicians.

If "they" don't want Everyone to have one, than limit the supply. Give 500 new blueprints to the technician, and ensure each person can buy only one. It's a very simple script:

Set BuyOnce to 1

If Buying
If ItemPurchased = NewItemInLimitedSuppy
Set Supply to Supply -1
Set BuyOnce to -1
EndIf
EndIf

It's pseudocode, written in something very like Gamebryo script format, but you get the point.

But mark my words, "they" won't do this. "They" can't. It's too fair.

 

[Daniel Steps]

Quote:
And as long as the word is that if you skill up, you can get better returns, and even "make money" like MA shouts of the rooftops... the word scam is one which does pop up in my mind once in a while.

Wasn't your complaint that people with high skills and gear get all the money? And now you say its a scam because dispite your skill or gear you lose anyhow?

Witte, you don't seem to understand despite it being logical (imo), maybe this helps:
(a) observed high skilled or geared ppl apparantly get all the money (Star making a living out of EU is a fact according to Star himself, Rei just hit an ATH full of items, etc),
(b) tried to get skills and gear,
(c) came to the conclusion that apparantly that doesn't suffice,
(d) started to whine, concluded 'must be a scam', left, .. (from the fact that apparantly for some it does seem to work, i conclude 'rigged game', 'have to be on the lucky-few list', which is an emotional reaction, but it does explain the observations, so it may be true, that you don't agree could be bcz EU seems to work ok-ish for you, so maybe your avatar is a lucky one?)

Maybe you should stop focussing on making money. Nobody ever said that killing mobs would make your rich(er). On the contrary, MA claims we pay $1 on average each hour. In other words, you spend money with the knowledge you are likely going to lose it. Calling it an investment is silly, it just isnt.

MindArk, Star, .. DID say you could make money from it .. which is probably a lie to help them make money but they did state it (didn't you see the statement in the video of an MA employee 'you could pay rent etc by playing EU' ? well, they did say it). They also said we pay about 1$/hr. Hence you invest the cost/hr to try and get the profit they claim you CAN make, hence investment. Believing them is probably silly, but then if you can't believe them, you should deposit anymore, or play?

 

[Daniel Steps]

Yup, you base your opinion on prejudice and hearsay. I base my opinion on dozens of extensive tests by multiply players.

Lol, Witte, you should redo some tests then. Whether all my crap test results are due to packet loss or due to MA's system, i can't say tho, but i can say that the numbers on entropedia are wishful thinking compared to the results in decay and damage after a run. Might wanna delete the whole data on the 2x0 axe, it's bullshit to state that the eco is what you say it is on entropedia, it's about the worsed weapon i've tested (again, maybe coincidently those runs i had terrible packet loss, but i don't buy that, i suspect it's a feature that MA gladly implemented to ensure a steady income, the whole route to MA server is fine, just not the final step to get there, how convenient).

 

[Witte]

Witte, you don't seem to understand despite it being logical (imo), maybe this helps:
(a) observed high skilled or geared ppl apparantly get all the money (Star making a living out of EU is a fact according to Star himself, Rei just hit an ATH full of items, etc),
(b) tried to get skills and gear,
(c) came to the conclusion that apparantly that doesn't suffice,
(d) started to whine, concluded 'must be a scam', left, .. (from the fact that apparantly for some it does seem to work, i conclude 'rigged game', 'have to be on the lucky-few list', which is an emotional reaction, but it does explain the observations, so it may be true, that you don't agree could be bcz EU seems to work ok-ish for you, so maybe your avatar is a lucky one?)

It is very illogical that MA basis its business on a scam, while it would also work perfectly well with a non-scam system.

MindArk, Star, .. DID say you could make money from it .. which is probably a lie to help them make money but they did state it (didn't you see the statement in the video of an MA employee 'you could pay rent etc by playing EU' ? well, they did say it).

Could and would, two totally different words.

They also said we pay about 1$/hr. Hence you invest the cost/hr to try and get the profit they claim you CAN make, hence investment. Believing them is probably silly, but then if you can't believe them, you should deposit anymore, or play?

I think this is the cause of the problem many of you have. Thinking you are investing. Just get that out of your mind. Its not an investment, and nobody ever claimed it is. Consider money you spend/deposit gone.

 

[Witte]

Lol, Witte, you should redo some tests then. Whether all my crap test results are due to packet loss or due to MA's system, i can't say tho, but i can say that the numbers on entropedia are wishful thinking compared to the results in decay and damage after a run. Might wanna delete the whole data on the 2x0 axe, it's bullshit to state that the eco is what you say it is on entropedia, it's about the worsed weapon i've tested (again, maybe coincidently those runs i had terrible packet loss, but i don't buy that, i suspect it's a feature that MA gladly implemented to ensure a steady income, the whole route to MA server is fine, just not the final step to get there, how convenient).

Just publish your results so we can discuss them.

 

[chevrons]

Because if it is true that those who invested big will always remain on the top... EU would become much like a Ponzi scheme.

A Ponzi scheme means that people invest money. Hunting is not investing. It also means that the party that receives the investments promises profit, and makes himself creditable by paying out other inverters money. Essential for a Ponzi scheme is that it is a scam. Since those conditions are not met, it is not a Ponzi scheme. EU just has some mild similarities, just like a stock market, estate market, casino, grocery store, bar, etc.

Wollongong used the word Ponzi incorrectly, firstly a Ponzi Scheme differs from a Pyramid Scheme in that money is given to one person, which is not the case in EU, secondly that has nothing to do with causing the top players remaining on top.

But aspects of EU are similar to a Pyramid Scheme, and I think Witte is therefore wrong to dismiss the idea with such certainty. Players deposit money to pay for MU on items, and for skills, and both only have value as long as other players are willing to pay. Indeed the collapse in skill values last October is good evidence for that.

We have all now heard of Madoff, who ran his Ponzi Scheme over several years, but National Pension Schemes are funded not by investment, but by future contributions, and these have also been described as huge Ponzi schemes, albeit over a very long timescale. It is not obvious that non-TT values in EU are not a scam; though this may yet take some years to be established.

That was a bit off-topic, but I can also say I enjoyed my earlier times in EU more, before MA changed the loot algorithms, and I am very careful now to stay within my budget.

 

[SpikeBlack]

I think this is the cause of the problem many of you have. Thinking you are investing. Just get that out of your mind. Its not an investment, and nobody ever claimed it is. Consider money you spend/deposit gone.

I never believed the investment concept and a profit is nice but what I really want is to believe the ped I'm spending is worthwhile. If all I do is hunt snables it gets extremely boring and in the end its always the same result - 0ped. If I hunt atrox then I burn it quicker but in the end its the same - 0ped.

I want to feel that what I'm doing in game is actually worth my time, that I'm actually valued to some degree by MA as a participant in a RCE and not as a cash cow to fund their development plans.

We keep getting different answers though, some say its skills are worth working for as they improve return and in the same thread we're getting people saying just because you've got skills it doesn't improve things. So why bother skilling?

 

[Quickening]

Witte knows what he's talking about, believe me.

I threw the whole 'investment' idea out of my head 4 years ago. I guess the only people that can keep thinking about investments are individuals with high-end items or land.

Hopefully VU10.0 will introduce a plethora of new items that will hopefully change the economic environment a bit. Then at least some disgruntled people will start thinking they are happy

 

[Spawn]

Now that I have reached 5700 handgun, I definately see improvement while I use Old-school pistols. I miss less, and am doing a lot more "high damage" .
I get hit a lot less then ppl who just started due to my defensive skills.
I have 142 healthpoints now and I can do small critters naked now, without constantly looking at my healthbar.
2 years ago, I would fear an argonaut hunter.
Now if I meet three of those and one is even a warrior, I am the one still left standing in the end.
So yes.. skilling up helps and matters..

 

[T3h_plonker]

yep same here!
whatever you doo, all you get back is negative feedback from the game.

the game should be fairer

yet i dont know if it's 100 % skills that help, I reacon we all have shit luck and for some bastards out there the sun shines out of their asses!!!
As far as loot goes there's quite a fiew people ( old and new ones) in this game that have put little or no money in here, that have skills and equipment i could only dream about having ( and i'm the one putting money into the system).fuck knows why/how.
I used to think it was cus if you cycle loads of ped the game reacts and sends ped your way and that's how these people were so lucky.... cus they crunched threw loads of money....
i try dooing the same and i loose it all...

but enuth about loot!

we all know the fundamental idea behind playing a game is for fun.

The real problem is that it's not fun to grind trox all day and loose more money thanwhat it would cost to buy a brand new game on xbox costs in one day... that's the real problem... ( oh and they last a week or more btw)
if there was a real sence that you could actualy profit; then it would be entertaining.

Yet I dont know that meany people, ouside the same fiew people that is, that constantly profit ( and the ones that do are dooing the same things as me )....

 

[Wollongong]

i believe MA can only gaurentee around 45% of tt values for all players

As a bank, this is kinda standard and higher than most businesses i believe

As for income, stated many times, from decay. Not stated from deposits interest etc

Rgds

Ace

Hahahaha... 45% standard for a bank? Try again, think in the direction of 8% (Under the Basel II agreement)

 

[Wollongong]

Maybe you should stop focussing on making money. Nobody ever said that killing mobs would make your rich(er). On the contrary, MA claims we pay $1 on average each hour. In other words, you spend money with the knowledge you are likely going to lose it. Calling it an investment is silly, it just isnt.



Wasn't your complaint that people with high skills and gear get all the money? And now you say its a scam because dispite your skill or gear you lose anyhow?

You seriously should focus less on telling me to focus less on making money. Instead, you should focus on actually READING what I am saying (over and over again: I want value for money in my entertainment.

But no matter, somehow it seems you always interpret my posts, even when I spell it out, in some way totally different than what they say.

 

[aridash]

the only thing you should "invest" in EU is your time. cash is spent: if you get most or more back out than you put in then bonus, but dont assume or expect it. most disappointment comes from not grasping this idea. there is no method or mechanism for all or even the majority of players to "profit" in EU.

how much is returned in what span of time and the effect of skills is a different matter, and in that respect the OP is correct, skills should visably count for more. anything huntable for an avatar unlocking coolness and gremlin should not produce 5 figure hofs. similar fo crafting, BP products lower than lvl5 say shouldnt be at the top of the hof list every day, or lyst finds at 300m.

but comparisons to pyramid or ponzi schemes misunderstand much of the ecomony, such as it is, and are only valid if you consider real ecnomies to match these definitions (which they dont except in superficial analogy by people making political points). if anything its an inverted pyramid (just like real life) where those at the top are those funding the higher value items. newbs dont buy ESI or Martial L armour. but some at the very top in terms of skills equipment and time invested do very nicely, so does it resemeble a diamond? what shape would you place on a normal real economy? its really not so simple that it can be modeled or visualised in basic shapes.

 

[Witte]

Wollongong used the word Ponzi incorrectly, firstly a Ponzi Scheme differs from a Pyramid Scheme in that money is given to one person, which is not the case in EU, secondly that has nothing to do with causing the top players remaining on top.

But aspects of EU are similar to a Pyramid Scheme, and I think Witte is therefore wrong to dismiss the idea with such certainty. Players deposit money to pay for MU on items, and for skills, and both only have value as long as other players are willing to pay. Indeed the collapse in skill values last October is good evidence for that.

We have all now heard of Madoff, who ran his Ponzi Scheme over several years, but National Pension Schemes are funded not by investment, but by future contributions, and these have also been described as huge Ponzi schemes, albeit over a very long timescale. It is not obvious that non-TT values in EU are not a scam; though this may yet take some years to be established.

That was a bit off-topic, but I can also say I enjoyed my earlier times in EU more, before MA changed the loot algorithms, and I am very careful now to stay within my budget.

A pyramid scheme is, like a Ponzi scheme, doomed to collapse, because there can never be enough influx of money to cover the promised payout. In EU, there is no promised payout, and the payout for your wager is immediate. Therefor, the system can not collapse. When there is no more payout, people will stop hunting immediately, and only lose a very small amount of money.

I still find the best analog for huntuing to be a fruitmachine, with the exception that you do not put in money, but virtual credits (damage points). The goal of the game is partly to obtain these virtual credits as cheap as possible and partly figuring out which fruitmachine gives the best prizes. Because these factors make you have a significant influence on the outcome, the game is not considdered gambling by law.

The last part is of course just my theory, but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

 

[Wollongong]

I never believed the investment concept and a profit is nice but what I really want is to believe the ped I'm spending is worthwhile. If all I do is hunt snables it gets extremely boring and in the end its always the same result - 0ped. If I hunt atrox then I burn it quicker but in the end its the same - 0ped.

I want to feel that what I'm doing in game is actually worth my time, that I'm actually valued to some degree by MA as a participant in a RCE and not as a cash cow to fund their development plans.

We keep getting different answers though, some say its skills are worth working for as they improve return and in the same thread we're getting people saying just because you've got skills it doesn't improve things. So why bother skilling?

Indeed....