MU vs efficiency (efficiency overrated?)

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
Hi all ,

so I have been talkign about this to some friends. What is the best setup you can go for?
Is it worth paying the mu for a 70+eff gun with extender (armatrix series)?
In all honestly I dont think it is and efficiency is kinda overrated.

I have done some testing and cycled over 100k ped with and augmented bc-80 90+ eff and about 190% mu.
I did the same with the normal armatrixes bc-85, bc 90 70+ eff and about 130-136% mu
then I did the same with an lc-300 ambush 64 eff and no mu since its ul (so only mu on the amp and extender which is still way less then using L items)

all 3 examples also use mayhem amps

the results where staggering I have more then 10% better returns using the least efficient gun simply because I dont pay mu. Even paying 135% on a normal armatrix gives better results then using the augmented version for 190%, and thats with extenders.

I havent been able to compare the lc-300 to a gun with 80-90eff and same dps and dpp. but I feel the small increase in tt-return isnt so high as some people make it out to be (most of them resellers that charge an arm and a leg for these items). the majority if your profits come from looting high mu L items and mu on items with 0tt anyway.

My conclusion is that the difference in eff even if its 20% isnt worth it at all if you have to pay mu for that item, unlike what some people say that swear by efficiency even if that means paying 190-200% mu. Going with an ul kallous-7 or adj maddox or whatever will still net you better results then the armatrix weapons because the MU does add up in the long run (100k+ ped cycled).
and I am not even mentioning looter skills which are as important as efficiency on weapons.

Nobody is talking about dps which is a huge factor imo. Being able to cycle more mobs in a day will give you so much more chance on looting an item with mu (guns, armour etc). not to mention being able to kill bigger mobs with the better mu in the game.

so my question is would you rather go for a decent ul weapon (in the 60's of eff) or go for a L item with mu while negating some of that with extenders?

another question is why is everyone talking about dpp and efficiency only while I feel dps is also a major factor in loot returns?

in my own opinion (and also what I did) ur better of getting a good dps weapon like predator, lc-300, gleamer and keeping a 50k bankroll then going for a high eff gun like lp-40, imk2, argo claws etc with almost no bankroll. I can still profit with my setup but I just have to be more carefull what I hunt.

having a lc-300 at t10 will also give you a much better chance in events to reach a top 10 place. (if I dont get bumped up a cat for next mayhems, dont think I have a chence in cat 10 :D )

thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Igorl

Stalker
Joined
May 21, 2006
Posts
2,235
Location
Croatia
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Igor Nikola Lucky
From what I have read in official "efficiency" report from MA - efficiency modifies your loot composition. Not TT return. Looter skills actually modify your TT return.

From what I have read in gun sales threads - wanna TT profit - come buy this baby for TT+150k PED.

Bottom line - people believe higher eff equals more TT loot and that reflects on high eff. item markup. End of story.

Regards
I.
 

Sub-Zero

Elite
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Posts
3,195
Location
Sweden
Society
Classified
Avatar Name
Sub-Zero The Killer
From what I have read in official "efficiency" report from MA - efficiency modifies your loot composition. Not TT return. Looter skills actually modify your TT return.

From what I have read in gun sales threads - wanna TT profit - come buy this baby for TT+150k PED.

Bottom line - people believe higher eff equals more TT loot and that reflects on high eff. item markup. End of story.

Regards
I.
Bah. People can't read. Go read it again. Efficiency affect your TT return. So does your looter skills.
Your damage per pec/cost to kill affect your loot composition....

As for the OP. Obviously buying high MU (L) weapons with higher efficiency ain't very wise longterm.
 

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
From what I have read in official "efficiency" report from MA - efficiency modifies your loot composition. Not TT return. Looter skills actually modify your TT return.
I think it's the other way around :D efficiency and looter give better tt-return and dpp (+ dps?) gives you better loot composition

As for the OP. Obviously buying high MU (L) weapons with higher efficiency ain't very wise longterm.
there are still people out there who think paying the mu for the higher efficiency is better then a 60 eff ul item
 

Igorl

Stalker
Joined
May 21, 2006
Posts
2,235
Location
Croatia
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Igor Nikola Lucky
Bah. People can't read. Go read it again. Efficiency affect your TT return. So does your looter skills.
Your damage per pec/cost to kill affect your loot composition....

As for the OP. Obviously buying high MU (L) weapons with higher efficiency ain't very wise longterm.
Yes, I stand corrected mate. thnks.

I.

Charlie|MindArk said:

No, DPP and Efficiency are not the same thing. DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP. Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.
 

Igorl

Stalker
Joined
May 21, 2006
Posts
2,235
Location
Croatia
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Igor Nikola Lucky
Ok in light of new revelations, I would calculate worth of efficiency like this:

If a 0% weapon returns say 92% TT. A 100% eff returns 99% (7% diff per MA statement)
Given the linear distribution that would make 60% eff weapon returning 96.2% and 80% eff around 97.6%

Meaning - if your markup per shot is 1.5% or over given the linear distribution of loot bonus - it is not worth it.
This does not mean gun markup. If gun uses 1 PED / shot and decays extra 1 pec and costs 200% - its markup per shot is actually 1+102/101 = 100.99%

Regards
I.
 

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
As for the OP. Obviously buying high MU (L) weapons with higher efficiency ain't very wise longterm.
Given the linear distribution that would make 60% eff weapon returning 96.2% and 80% eff around 97.6%
this seems to be roughly right
my tt-returns with the lc-300 with delta amp are around 95% (with mu of amp and extender)
without calculating the amp i am around 96-97%

this means in order for me to break even I have to find mobs with an avg mu of 105% or me needing a bigger pedcard and more auctions (you can make it easy by posting smaller stacks on auction for 106-110% that would be around 105% if you calculate the auction fee into it).

so yes efficiency is not key and its definitly overrated. the only thing it means is you need an avg mu of 103 or 102 instead of 105 and you have more choices in what you hunt (and can post bigger stacks on auction so faster ped ciculation)

I also do believe dps is more important then dpp for loot distribution but noone ever talks about actual dps
 
Last edited:

Evey

Stalker
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Posts
2,316
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Eve Everglades
my tt-returns with the lc-300 with delta amp are around 95% (with mu of amp and extender)
[...]
so yes efficiency is not key and its definitly overrated. the only thing it means is you need an avg mu of 103 or 102 instead of 105 and you have more choices in what you hunt (and can post bigger stacks on auction so faster ped ciculation)
[...]
I also do believe dps is more important then dpp for loot distribution but noone ever talks about actual dps
- you're using an extender on an UL item?
- eff, dpp and dps are all key, but indeed, ppl pay too much for just having a high number in efficiency and miss the point ... just like pre loot 2.0, a chase for super high dpp but a low dps would amount to pretty much nothing, or very cheap skilling at most; eff is still very important, but not too useful on its own.
 

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
- you're using an extender on an UL item?
yes as far as i am aware the extender helps with the durability on the mayhem amp (please tell me I am not wrong here :D) so paying the small mu on the extender to negate the cost of the amp a bit is worth it imo since using l-amp delta boosts my dpp from 3.01 to like 3.33 not to mention the dps increase compared to ul amps
 

Power

Old
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Posts
73
Location
Canada
Avatar Name
The Great Adventurer
From what I read and understand:

Efficiency accounts for 0-7% of TT loot value.

Looter Profession accounts for 0-7% of TT loot value.

0% EFF and 0 Looter Level = 86% TT Return

100% EFF and whatever max looter level is for mob you hunt = 100% TT Return

We know that 100% EFF doesn't exists.

We don't know what max looter level is for mobs.

Thus you'll never get to 100% TT return hunting.

Damage/PEC gives better loot composition and most high EFF weapons have good DPP. Add enhancers/rings/pills/etc and lower your amor/fap costs then you'll start to see better loot composition.
 
Last edited:

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
100% EFF and whatever max looter level is for mob you hunt = 100% TT Return
are you sure about this? is looter soft capped or will you be able to get 100%+ returns if you have over 100 lvl in animal looter?
so far I havent seen any official statement about there being a soft cap on looter professions.

people like messi who put a lot of effort in their chars should be rewarded with positive tt-returns. like prio loot 2.0
I just think they got rid of the dpp and replaced it with animal looter. nobody except messi can give us numbers on this since I think he is the only one deep into the 100's on looter. If there is no soft cap on looter profs its technicly still possible to get over 100% tt-returns consistently
 

Nik-Elas

Provider
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Posts
147
Location
Sweden
Society
Deagleteam
Avatar Name
Niklas Negolas Hedlund
yes as far as i am aware the extender helps with the durability on the mayhem amp (please tell me I am not wrong here :D) so paying the small mu on the extender to negate the cost of the amp a bit is worth it imo since using l-amp delta boosts my dpp from 3.01 to like 3.33 not to mention the dps increase compared to ul amps
I have never heard of the extender handling amp decay, only weapon decay?! I've seen several people using it to bump up efficiency as well as get more uses out of a UNL weapon with high decay though.
 

Power

Old
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Posts
73
Location
Canada
Avatar Name
The Great Adventurer
are you sure about this? is looter soft capped or will you be able to get 100%+ returns if you have over 100 lvl in animal looter?
so far I havent seen any official statement about there being a soft cap on looter professions.
We don't know what the max looter level? Is it level 100? +20 levels from mob level? It could be level 1000 and the first levels from 0-100 increase your TT return exponentially then after that its just 1% from 100-1000?

people like messi who put a lot of effort in their chars should be rewarded with positive tt-returns. like prio loot 2.0
I just think they got rid of the dpp and replaced it with animal looter. nobody except messi can give us numbers on this since I think he is the only one deep into the 100's on looter. If there is no soft cap on looter profs its technicly still possible to get over 100% tt-returns consistently
Should he get positive TT return? No. He should just have the ability to hunt for anything he wants and get REALLY close to 100% return with more chance to get those dank Markup drops. It opens up more options is all IMO.
 

Hego Damask

Old Alpha
Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Posts
775
Society
Yes
Avatar Name
Hego Damask II
Probably misunderstand the question.

Paying 190% MU for the L high eff guns not worth it, easy call.
 

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
maybe I have been doing it wrong :D I always tought extenders extended the lifetime of the gun and its attachements not just the gun itself. This is also what people have been telling me.
 

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
Check your returns, remove the MU paid for the Augmented, count them like if they were UL and you not paid MU for them, just their TT like a repair.
Than you will see the result of them if they were UL, and result of the UL 6x% eff weapon, than you can decide, if they worth it or not.
I stated this aswell in the original post having a 64 eff weapon with good dps and keeping an extra 100k for bankroll is still better then paying an arm and a leg for a bc-80 augmented for example and have no bankroll at all. I think these items are verry much overpirized and you can get positive returns with a lesser efficient gun aswell. you just have to look out more.

I still think having a 60eff gun with high dps and dpp is better then having a 90eff gun with lower dps simply because you get better loot distribution and more L items with mu that drop. Prime example is araneatrox being able to kill like couple of thosuends more each day with less eff cans till result in more shadow pieces looted the mu on these items is way higher then the difference you get in tt-returns from the gun vs a high eff gun. But like Evey said ofc it will be better if you have high eff, dpp and dps but I do think dpp and dps is better then efficiency if you dont have the money to invest in a 160k item :D

people tend to get their information off other players. for example eff is best because that's what messi went for. He has the highest eff weapon in the game. But what people seem to forget is that it also is the 2nd highest dps item in the game (probably highest now that he tiered his dagger to 10). My question to him would be: would he still have gone for the dagger if it had like 20% lower dps? and I think if that would have been the case he would ahve rather gone for the bc-120 .
 
Last edited:

eyeshark

Provider
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Posts
165
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL United States
Avatar Name
Crimson Eyeshark Tide
maybe I have been doing it wrong :D I always tought extenders extended the lifetime of the gun and its attachements not just the gun itself. This is also what people have been telling me.
My understanding is it only reduces the decay on the weapon, not other attachments.
 

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
15,454
Location
FOMA SHOP # 22
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
Just have fun. If you want to play eco do so. If you don't , don't. On some planets on some mobs it's realy not going to matter. Just like the most recent fix on explosive crafting on Toulan, there are small inconsinstencies across the virtual universe if you look close enough. Loot 2.0 did adjust a lot of things, but some things from Loot 1.0 are still hidden under the hood.

If you want to play with the highest damage, uneco thing you can, go for it. Sometimes that can be fun as hell. If I have some silly little chain to run through, likke I did in upgrading that fap on Cyrene as fast as possible, I just grabbed a Katsuichi Determination and plowed through it. If I feel like burning off some explosives I've crafted somewhere on small mobs I use that uneco as hell Noob Grenade Launcher... Yes, it's not something I do daily, but if you just want to play, stop asking questions in the forum and just start playing.

You call your avatar a hunter? There are mobs out there to bash. Go get em tiger.
 

Deemer

Guardian
Joined
Apr 18, 2018
Posts
228
There are priorities in mathematics. And sometimes 10% can be more than 50%, in the end result... for example:

-A LA owner wants 5% for hunting and in the next 24 hours, his land is empty.
-Another LA owner wants 1% to hunting on its land, but in the next 24 hours, there are 1 million ped circled.
Which do you think has a better result?

You forget the Dynamic Rate in every calculation, so your basic understanding is wrong. For example:

DPP = 4.8
DPS = 2
EFF = 100%
Looter = level 100.

Dynamic rate = X

If we assume that DPP + DPS + EFF + Looter make your return 110%, what is the result of a low rate .. for example 89% .. i.e...

0.89 * 110 =? return


Increasing stats by skills and items, mostly mean that you decrease your loss. But decrease loss is not mean profit... if you avoid the dynamic shits.

P.PR.P.S.
Increasing of 7%, means.... X * 1.07
Additional 7%, means.... X + 7%
 
Last edited:

Shamshe

Provider
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Posts
160
Location
Kalmthout (Belgium)
Society
The Knights Of Entropia
Avatar Name
Shamshe Shamshe Shamadarak
stop asking questions in the forum and just start playing
What if I told you I am asking questions while playing :D

asking questions is a good thing. take the fact i thought extenders worked on the weapon + attachements.
how do you learn if you dont ask questions? There is a lot of info out there but not all info is found on the wiki and you learn a lot from other players experiences aswell.
 

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
15,454
Location
FOMA SHOP # 22
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
What if I told you I am asking questions while playing :D

asking questions is a good thing. take the fact i thought extenders worked on the weapon + attachements.
how do you learn if you dont ask questions? There is a lot of info out there but not all info is found on the wiki and you learn a lot from other players experiences aswell.
and as often as Mindark changes things or forgets to implement what they promised you cannot really rely on info on wiki, etc. Most of it's outdated info in 4 years or so as they redo the system completely in that timeframe...
 

NIckki

Provider
Joined
Jul 17, 2019
Posts
135
- you're using an extender on an UL item?
- eff, dpp and dps are all key, but indeed, ppl pay too much for just having a high number in efficiency and miss the point ... just like pre loot 2.0, a chase for super high dpp but a low dps would amount to pretty much nothing, or very cheap skilling at most; eff is still very important, but not too useful on its own.
All have the not same point of view. And I'm ready to argue with you.
Of course, DPS and DPP are very important for obtaining loot, but if earlier oils wool and other was worth something, then look at the market now more than 50% of all loot costs 101%.
i am remeber then back - focus 200%. wool 120% and more more more Now all go down like crazy.

As soon as the loot changes again and again or the economy is full, then you will have only one thing - your TT return. What will you do then?
Or ESI much people looted it before - now its realy rare. And loot may change again and again
But only 1 will be solid in years = TT return by system
 

SleePy

Provider
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Posts
195
Location
Sweden
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
SleePy Angel Chick
Going from 60 to 90% eff will give you 2,1% more tt return. On a 100k ped cycle u get 2100 ped more return on long term average. If you use a UL gun that's quite a lot. With high dps you can cycle a lot per hour.

Cycling 100k ped with bc-80 aug (L) with p20 extender (to lazy to calculate amp) MU will cost u ~5380 ped counting markup for gun @ 190% and extender at 106%. It would be better with amp but u get the picture, at that markup its not worth it and u will do much better with a 60% eff UL gun.

Hope my math was correct though :D
 

Evey

Stalker
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Posts
2,316
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Eve Everglades
But only 1 will be solid in years = TT return by system
As someone who cycles 20k in lazy days I know extremely well the importance of the tt returns, that's why I always say the single most important profession is the looter. And you don't get to high looter levels shooting peashooterss with high efficiency. One of the things that impacts the growth speed is the dps. DPP helps to pay less for same MU and skills and the efficiency having the same role, it's a balance you need to look for, not just high efficiency because eff alone will not get you far and going for an imk2 could probably make you go backwards in the game as avatar progress. I said it before, because of this balance, a LP100/BP110 will be any day, in my books, superior to BP/LP 70. It's why I switched from LP70 to LP100, loosing in efficinecy but gaining DPS. Not a second I regret lowering my efficiency, but focusing strictly on looter. Not evade, not HP and certainly not attributes. Even tho my dmg level is 118 levels above my evader, I'm still 10 levels in looter above evader, but very happy that I am less than 6 levels to 100 in looter.
So yes, it's OK to have different points of view, but your arguments apply to you because each of us has different goals and different strategies to get there...
Oh, another thing, going strictly for tt returns will make you loose before you start, everyone fighting the tt game in EU vs. MA is going to loose.
 

Deemer

Guardian
Joined
Apr 18, 2018
Posts
228


Just to remind in case if someone NEW PLAYER got confused that ArMartix are profitable with their "high eff".

Most of the examples in each topic are from calculations at a possible high level, which is achieved after more than 5 years of play.

The people who give advice judge from their point of view, and it is a high level, which in no way applies to the majority.
 

SleePy

Provider
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Posts
195
Location
Sweden
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
SleePy Angel Chick
Just to remind in case if someone NEW PLAYER got confused that ArMartix are profitable with their "high eff".

Most of the examples in each topic are from calculations at a possible high level, which is achieved after more than 5 years of play.

The people who give advice judge from their point of view, and it is a high level, which in no way applies to the majority.
Efficiency and its impact on loot is linear in the same way for everyone, it has nothing to do with skills, if you get a UL wpn with higher eff then before u will get more loot in the long run. Will that make you profit as a lesser skilled player, probably not, but it will make u loose less.

Also you should stop obsessing about profit, very few ppl in this game make profit from hunting, and even less make "big" profit.
 
Top