MU vs efficiency (efficiency overrated?)

Deemer

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No. This is pure delusion.

I need 5 weapons a day, which is over 100 ped MU.
These 100 peds in no way reduce my loss, they increase it by 100 peds. Because my loss or profit depends on the dynamic rate in the game much more than that 0.5% at which I pay additional 100 ped per day.

The benefit of these EFF dreams is only with the craftsmen who sell them, so do not deceive people.
 

SleePy

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No. This is pure delusion.

I need 5 weapons a day, which is over 100 ped MU.
These 100 peds in no way reduce my loss, they increase it by 100 peds. Because my loss or profit depends on the dynamic rate in the game much more than that 0.5% at which I pay additional 100 ped per day.

The benefit of these EFF dreams is only with the craftsmen who sell them, so do not deceive people.
Im talking unlimited wpn here, read my earlier post i already did the math, given on a very high markup but comparing eff on limited gear where the higher eff have higher markup will almost always make the lower markup better, unless its marginal...

If youre new and serious about getting into hunting, getting a good UL wpn should be top priority.
 

Deemer

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Just to remind in case if someone NEW PLAYER got confused that ArMartix are profitable with their "high eff".

Most of the examples in each topic are from calculations at a possible high level, which is achieved after more than 5 years of play.

The people who give advice judge from their point of view, and it is a high level, which in no way applies to the majority.
You mean like this one?
 

SleePy

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You mean like this one?
Yes he writes the truth, get good wpn and u will loose less, keep skilling and eventually you will reach profit after MU, now how much that will cost you and how long that will take i cant answer you, because im not there yet.
 

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FYI I tested the extender theory out . for optimal result I used a full tt amp for both tests. Here are the results:
delta amp with extender on 100ped of ammo shot = between 4 and 5 pec decay on amp and weapon has 64.8% eff
delta amp without extender on 100 ped of ammo shot = between 6 and 7 pec decay on amp and weapon has 64.5% eff

I will test this out further with some longer runs but so far it seems the extender does prevent decay on the amp aswell.
the reason its between 4 and 5 pec is because the game doesnt show decay more then 1 pec (this is also the reason I used a full tt amp for both tests).

so guess I wasnt wrong after all :D
 
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Deemer

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FYI I tested the extender theory out . for optimal result I used a full tt amp for both tests. Here are the results:
delta amp with extender on 100ped of ammo shot = between 4 and 5 pec decay
delta amp without extender on 100 ped of ammo shot = between 6 and 7 pec decay

I will test this out further with some longer runs but so far it seems the extender does prevent decay on the amp aswell.
the reason its between 4 and 5 pec is because the game doesnt show decay more then 1 pec (this is also the reason I used a full tt amp for both tests).

so guess I wasnt wrong after all :D


Just one shot is enough. Check the item TT before and after the shoot.
 

M Rufen Power

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It's sad that even with high-end items its so hard to break even. I always dream of investing in some high-end items, but it's just not worth it as I see from many logs. You have to treat it as a real job and invest a shitload of time in learning/analysing; otherwise, it's impossible to succeed.

I'll rather keep my money in the stock market and won't make crazy investments in Entropia after reading all these bloggers with uber gear that still struggle in hunting. All I wanted was to buy eco gear and press F to break even :D. Gladly you opened my eyes, and I will focus on other investments.
You are certainly not the only one mate; lol, I had the same aspirations, and now I hunt low-level mobs to pass the time and enjoy myself.

Here is what I have found out recently:

Weapon efficiency is no longer what we were told it was or was changed without telling us again lol.
We were told efficiency is the new TT return scale that replaced DPP but was later replaced by skills!
To this day, no one can understand how we can have both efficiency and looter, giving us 7% each.

What I have seen and noticed is that:

The average player who has access to 3.0 DPP, 65-75% efficiency, Lv 30 Looter, can produce 95-97% returns.
The veteran player who has access to 3.1 DPP, 75-85% efficiency, Lv 45 Looter, can produce 96-98% returns.
The uber player who has access to 3.2+ DPP, 85-95% efficiency, Lv 60+ Looter, can produce 97-99% returns.
The odd player who has access to 3.0 DPP, 65-75% efficiency, Lv 80+ Looter, can even produce 98% returns!

The best way to profit in Entropia is:

Get your TT returns as close to or above 98%, and the best way to get there is through Looter professions.
Which begs the real question, how much does efficiency on weapons contribute to the above equations?

What does this all really mean hm?

My honest opinion is that they hyped efficiency to the moon and then nerfed it silently with Looter profs.
In all honesty, there is no proof that Looter skills even work as intended, or it works like Evader on mobs.
The best I can see efficiency contributing to TT returns is 1-2% max, with 2% is being rather generous.
That would mean that base returns are really 90%; Looter gives 7%, giving 1% efficiency, giving 98%.
The problem with this conclusion is that it doesn't add up, a newbie using high DPP can get 97%!
Seriously they hardly have any Looter skills, to begin with, so how are they getting high returns?

Conclusion

Efficiency is dead, DPP is the king, Looter profs may have some merit, cheap kills = markup.
 

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My honest opinion is that they hyped efficiency to the moon and then nerfed it silently with Looter profs.
In all honesty, there is no proof that Looter skills even work as intended, or it works like Evader on mobs.
The best I can see efficiency contributing to TT returns is 1-2% max, with 2% is being rather generous.
That would mean that base returns are really 90%; Looter gives 7%, giving 1% efficiency, giving 98%.
The problem with this conclusion is that it doesn't add up, a newbie using high DPP can get 97%!
Seriously they hardly have any Looter skills, to begin with, so how are they getting high returns?
Your thoughts here are what prompted me to make the case here in my thread a while ago:


I think there is still some merit to that theory I had advanced back then.
 

M Rufen Power

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From what I read and understand:

Efficiency accounts for 0-7% of TT loot value.

Looter Profession accounts for 0-7% of TT loot value.

0% EFF and 0 Looter Level = 86% TT Return

100% EFF and whatever max looter level is for mob you hunt = 100% TT Return

We know that 100% EFF doesn't exists.

We don't know what max looter level is for mobs.

Thus you'll never get to 100% TT return hunting.

Damage/PEC gives better loot composition and most high EFF weapons have good DPP. Add enhancers/rings/pills/etc and lower your amor/fap costs then you'll start to see better loot composition.
I remember getting below 70% TT, that shouldn’t happen lol. Don’t know where you are getting 86% TT returns from.

Max looter is level 100, this may be linear, but may not react in a linear fashion for mobs.

There are times I get above 100% TT returns but the ratio of losses to wins is much higher than it used to be.

Going from 60 to 90% eff will give you 2,1% more tt return. On a 100k ped cycle u get 2100 ped more return on long term average. If you use a UL gun that's quite a lot. With high dps you can cycle a lot per hour.

Cycling 100k ped with bc-80 aug (L) with p20 extender (to lazy to calculate amp) MU will cost u ~5380 ped counting markup for gun @ 190% and extender at 106%. It would be better with amp but u get the picture, at that markup its not worth it and u will do much better with a 60% eff UL gun.

Hope my math was correct though :D
I am starting to think that between 60-75% efficiency grants 1%, 75-90%+ is another 1% in extra TT returns. But this is a massive guess on my part and strictly speculative. I think efficiency doesn’t control returns anymore its just looter professions. The extra TT might not be from the additional EFF but from a higher DPP, this makes more sense to me seeing as it can only potentially gives you a 1-2% advantage based on evidence from people’s hunting logs.

Efficiency and its impact on loot is linear in the same way for everyone, it has nothing to do with skills, if you get a UL wpn with higher eff then before u will get more loot in the long run. Will that make you profit as a lesser skilled player, probably not, but it will make u loose less.

Also you should stop obsessing about profit, very few ppl in this game make profit from hunting, and even less make "big" profit.
Try speaking to atomic getting 90% returns using a latest FEN item lol.
 

M Rufen Power

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FYI I tested the extender theory out . for optimal result I used a full tt amp for both tests. Here are the results:
delta amp with extender on 100ped of ammo shot = between 4 and 5 pec decay on amp and weapon has 64.8% eff
delta amp without extender on 100 ped of ammo shot = between 6 and 7 pec decay on amp and weapon has 64.5% eff

I will test this out further with some longer runs but so far it seems the extender does prevent decay on the amp aswell.
the reason its between 4 and 5 pec is because the game doesnt show decay more then 1 pec (this is also the reason I used a full tt amp for both tests).

so guess I wasnt wrong after all :D
Wait, extenders work on amps too?! Huh? That is massive intel, thanks! Gotta test this out on my setups.
 

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Wait, extenders work on amps too?! Huh?
the only way these results could be off if is decay on amp is based on dmg done rather then shots fired, which I don't think it is.
 

M Rufen Power

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the only way these results could be off if is decay on amp is based on dmg done rather then shots fired, which I don't think it is.
I am going to try shot past the number of available uses on a low TT amp, the ZX. If using a P10 extends it’s number of total uses then I’ll know for sure :D.
 

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FYI I tested the extender theory out . for optimal result I used a full tt amp for both tests. Here are the results:
delta amp with extender on 100ped of ammo shot = between 4 and 5 pec decay on amp and weapon has 64.8% eff
delta amp without extender on 100 ped of ammo shot = between 6 and 7 pec decay on amp and weapon has 64.5% eff

I will test this out further with some longer runs but so far it seems the extender does prevent decay on the amp aswell.
the reason its between 4 and 5 pec is because the game doesnt show decay more then 1 pec (this is also the reason I used a full tt amp for both tests).

so guess I wasnt wrong after all :D
I would suggest to redo the math with an amp that decays a substantial amount, it will make the difference easier to spot.
 

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Going from 60 to 90% eff will give you 2,1% more tt return. On a 100k ped cycle u get 2100 ped more return on long term average. If you use a UL gun that's quite a lot. With high dps you can cycle a lot per hour.

Cycling 100k ped with bc-80 aug (L) with p20 extender (to lazy to calculate amp) MU will cost u ~5380 ped counting markup for gun @ 190% and extender at 106%. It would be better with amp but u get the picture, at that markup its not worth it and u will do much better with a 60% eff UL gun.

Hope my math was correct though :D
That math is correct if you are looking at best possible scenario - linear distribution. 7% effect, 30% difference = 2.1
If you get some kind of log scale (more likely) that difference drops to maybe 1%?

Also - even on UL weapons you are losing markup due to weapon power creep. 100k PED weapons 10 yrs ago are 10k PED weapons nowdays. Anyone remember UL SIB Breer and Korss weapons? Nah - forgot about those, I betya they are around... Anyways - say the 50k PED weapon "costs" 5k PED / yr in power creep costs. To save enough to cover the creep it would need a 250k PED cycle / yr on your basis. That is almost 700 PED / day. Every day. Thats nothing on a 100 DPS weapon. On a 30 DPS its alot of shooting.

On a more realistic log scale 1% TT loot difference, power creep math is even worse. You need to shoot 500k PED - thats over 1300 PED daily, every day.

I.
 

Deemer

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That math is correct if you are looking at best possible scenario - linear distribution. 7% effect, 30% difference = 2.1
If you get some kind of log scale (more likely) that difference drops to maybe 1%?

Also - even on UL weapons you are losing markup due to weapon power creep. 100k PED weapons 10 yrs ago are 10k PED weapons nowdays. Anyone remember UL SIB Breer and Korss weapons? Nah - forgot about those, I betya they are around... Anyways - say the 50k PED weapon "costs" 5k PED / yr in power creep costs. To save enough to cover the creep it would need a 250k PED cycle / yr on your basis. That is almost 700 PED / day. Every day. Thats nothing on a 100 DPS weapon. On a 30 DPS its alot of shooting.

On a more realistic log scale 1% TT loot difference, power creep math is even worse. You need to shoot 500k PED - thats over 1300 PED daily, every day.

I.

I do not see anything wrong with your calculations.

They just don't fit when I have a 100 ped stack in AH, where the most common sales are 1-10 peds.

For me, this is the reality of comparing 100k ped weapons and my 100 ped stack, which I rotate regularly for about a month in AH, before TT them.

It's just that these calculations for millions in a really pointless trading environment don't seem plausible to me. Mostly looks as hope not as reality.

I'm just saying
 

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Since I joined EU back in 2010 and read through bunch of guides, my basic for hunting was (not a big hunter) - 3+ DPP

3+ DPP still is required, eff and skills bring extra layer.

If you are not uber, go throuh weapon compare, try getting 60+ eff, 3.2-3.3+ dpp (rings,buffs etc), skill levels for mobs you hunting and go for markup, whatever is hot these days. You can't do and go wrong really.

Be nice if someone would make a database for eff vs DPP on markup returns we could compare.

1. 62%eff, 3.331 DPP, looter lvl 38, mob lvl 30-35 etc and post returns there over 10k kills or 100k cycled etc

It be great to see the diff DPP vs eff returns on MU side. Anyone make it happen? I be willing to even go hunt more hehe :=)
 

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That math is correct if you are looking at best possible scenario - linear distribution. 7% effect, 30% difference = 2.1
If you get some kind of log scale (more likely) that difference drops to maybe 1%?

Also - even on UL weapons you are losing markup due to weapon power creep. 100k PED weapons 10 yrs ago are 10k PED weapons nowdays. Anyone remember UL SIB Breer and Korss weapons? Nah - forgot about those, I betya they are around... Anyways - say the 50k PED weapon "costs" 5k PED / yr in power creep costs. To save enough to cover the creep it would need a 250k PED cycle / yr on your basis. That is almost 700 PED / day. Every day. Thats nothing on a 100 DPS weapon. On a 30 DPS its alot of shooting.

On a more realistic log scale 1% TT loot difference, power creep math is even worse. You need to shoot 500k PED - thats over 1300 PED daily, every day.

I.
Well we dont really know that, 2.0 had the biggest impact because it changed drasticly the amount of profit you could get from high eff. wpns. (prev. dpp but it goes hand in hand mostly) Which is much lower now, so that was something outside power creep. Now they will for sure add more weapons in the future, so some power creep is probably going to happen, but that is also dependant on that we dont see a big population growth within EU, if we do then there still wont be enough high eff. guns to meet the demand.

So getting a high eff. gun is a gamble in my opinion, it can go either way. But for what we seen last few months with the prices increasing the way they do, getting a high eff gun is/was the best investment you could do.
 

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Well we dont really know that, 2.0 had the biggest impact because it changed drasticly the amount of profit you could get from high eff. wpns. (prev. dpp but it goes hand in hand mostly) Which is much lower now, so that was something outside power creep. Now they will for sure add more weapons in the future, so some power creep is probably going to happen, but that is also dependant on that we dont see a big population growth within EU, if we do then there still wont be enough high eff. guns to meet the demand.

So getting a high eff. gun is a gamble in my opinion, it can go either way. But for what we seen last few months with the prices increasing the way they do, getting a high eff gun is/was the best investment you could do.
1) Adding efficiency is the very definition of power creep - newer guns are much more powerfull in "eco" compared to old ones.
2) Let me remind you - they can add more weapons (with high eff)
3) When markup is this high - dont you think MA sees it and incentivizes? I mean - put 100 new 80%+ efficiency weapons for "entropia 18 and a half year anniversary event" and see ppl deposit 1000s of USD grinding new EAAHEN tokens to get them. And ppl will be happy losing 5k$ if they manage to grind out a 0TT PED 85% EFF, 90 DPS, UL gun. And what it cost MA? Few mouseclicks and pixelarts.
4) Exactly - a gamble. You cant know which item will MA decide to buff / nerf / totally screw tomorrow... might be the one you own, or not. But getting caught in a FOMO is stupid. You should have bought those high eff weapons when they were cheap - no point in buying one now when its expensive.

I.
 

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Imo the problem discussing things like this is that people try to improve and understand their cost and return by looking at statistics
and then try to apply that to the mechanism of each interaction. DPP is a good example of that, DPP is not a mechanism but a statistic.
 

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1) Adding efficiency is the very definition of power creep - newer guns are much more powerfull in "eco" compared to old ones.
2) Let me remind you - they can add more weapons (with high eff)
3) When markup is this high - dont you think MA sees it and incentivizes? I mean - put 100 new 80%+ efficiency weapons for "entropia 18 and a half year anniversary event" and see ppl deposit 1000s of USD grinding new EAAHEN tokens to get them. And ppl will be happy losing 5k$ if they manage to grind out a 0TT PED 85% EFF, 90 DPS, UL gun. And what it cost MA? Few mouseclicks and pixelarts.
4) Exactly - a gamble. You cant know which item will MA decide to buff / nerf / totally screw tomorrow... might be the one you own, or not. But getting caught in a FOMO is stupid. You should have bought those high eff weapons when they were cheap - no point in buying one now when its expensive.

I.
The stupid argument is in itself stupid in my opinion, everyone have different reasons when they buy their gear. Not everyone does it to make profit and having a good weapon will increase the enjoyment of playing the game. Im sure a lot of ppl doesnt play this game for profit, they play for enjoyment, and pay this with their real time job (like me, i dont give a shit if my gear drop in value, the money i have invested will stay in the game regardless, i make enough IRL to not worry). Your argument is true only if you believe that buying this wpn now will make you profit for sure.

Is everyone investing in stocks, property etc. stupid because eventually it will most likely drop?

Also the incentive from MA to not flood the market is that it would ruin the trust of players to invest in good gear.. and also while MA would get a boost in deposits in the short term, long term they would loose revenue because of the increased TT return for the players. Again if they would adjust this to compensate the trust of the player base would be gone.
 

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The stupid argument is in itself stupid in my opinion, everyone have different reasons when they buy their gear. Not everyone does it to make profit and having a good weapon will increase the enjoyment of playing the game. Im sure a lot of ppl doesnt play this game for profit, they play for enjoyment, and pay this with their real time job (like me, i dont give a shit if my gear drop in value, the money i have invested will stay in the game regardless, i make enough IRL to not worry). Your argument is true only if you believe that buying this wpn now will make you profit for sure.

Is everyone investing in stocks, property etc. stupid because eventually it will most likely drop?

Also the incentive from MA to not flood the market is that it would ruin the trust of players to invest in good gear.. and also while MA would get a boost in deposits in the short term, long term they would loose revenue because of the increased TT return for the players. Again if they would adjust this to compensate the trust of the player base would be gone.

There are many people who have fun with EP4, but they do not take part in economic topics because their choice is the gambling part of the game.

Your example is of this type.



Also the incentive from MA to not flood the market is that it would ruin the trust of players to invest in good gear..

Please wake up, only an idiot and a half-idiot would invest in a vague environment.

At the moment, the manipulated trade and the ambiguity of tomorrow... tomorrow, not in a week... MA loses all trust with each passing day.
 
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1) The stupid argument is in itself stupid in my opinion, everyone have different reasons when they buy their gear. Not everyone does it to make profit and having a good weapon will increase the enjoyment of playing the game. Im sure a lot of ppl doesnt play this game for profit, they play for enjoyment, and pay this with their real time job (like me, i dont give a shit if my gear drop in value, the money i have invested will stay in the game regardless, i make enough IRL to not worry). Your argument is true only if you believe that buying this wpn now will make you profit for sure.

2) Is everyone investing in stocks, property etc. stupid because eventually it will most likely drop?

3) Also the incentive from MA to not flood the market is that it would ruin the trust of players to invest in good gear.. and also while MA would get a boost in deposits in the short term, long term they would loose revenue because of the increased TT return for the players. Again if they would adjust this to compensate the trust of the player base would be gone.
1) What are you talking about? Ppl paying 5k$ for a EFF weapon - because of an efficiency are pinching pennies over 0.1% better loot man.

2) As a dude with an elect professional securities trader level of exp in stock trading - I wont even reply to this kind of nonsense. Would be too long.

3) Man, your profile states you joined in 2007. Where have you been - under a rock? MA has been flooding the market with new and shinier toys that devalue older stuff from day 1. You dont even have to speculate if this will happen again. Geez. Today you have 90% weapons and rings, tomorrow - shoulder pads? Earrings? Penis warmers?

Anyways - Im done with this discussion - said what I think - take it as my 2 pec guys, have fun whatever your playstyle is.

I.
 

Deemer

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so, do you think there's a difference between those two? ;)

Absolutely

100 * 1.07 = 107
100 + 7 = 107

1 * 1.07 = 1.07
1 + 7 = 8

1000 + 7 = 1007
1000 * 1.07 = 1070

Evaded hits are 89% most of the time. So basic calc by official data:
89 * 1.07 * 1.07 = 101.8961
89 + 7+ 7 = 103

Average Dynamic rate is 95%. So:
101.8961 * 0.95 = 96.801295
103 * 0.95 = 97.85

Accepting 90 + 7% +7% as average return is wrong in my view point, because in this case we always will be on stage where we are after good multiply.

Also you can scan the sweaters somewhere about their Evader profession on these player that using Athenic jewels.

Of course i can be in wrong, if you have right calculation, tell me where is my wrong.
 

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I also do believe dps is more important then dpp for loot distribution but noone ever talks about actual dps
dps helps you to hunt at a faster pace than everybody else in the spawn. Since other hunters are pumpin in money into the spawn, still the guy with the highest dps pulls the most tickets out of it. Unless his rival hunters in the spawn get lucky and they sometimes do, the guy with the highest dps, has the best chance to pull the right ticket. I dont think dps has much value if you are alone in a spawn, it can be fatal for your pedcard quickly if you do it wrong, and wrong can be a lot of things
 
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Deemer

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dps helps you to hunt at a faster pace than everybody else in the spawn. Since other hunters are pumpin in money into the spawn, still the guy with the highest dps pull the most tickets out of it, unless his rival hunters in the spawn get lucky and they sometimes do, the guy with the highest dps, has the best chance to pull the right ticket. I dont think dps has much value if you are alone in a spawn, it can be fatal for your pedcard quickly if you do it wrong, and wrong can be a lot of things

DPS is a double-edged knife. Most of the time it can mean a bigger loss for most people. Those who do not understand the DPS and what range of weapon to choose against the mob that hunt, are not entering in events where may have the effect you are talking about.
 

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Where do the said 7% bonus by looter profession come from?
have the 7% been validated somewhere by someone? please link me the source!

or are they just colportated hearsay?
maybe even mixed up with the validated 7% efficiency bonus?
Charlie MindArk Official 09-29-2017, 14:26
"DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP.
Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%."
because i remember another unvalidated hearsay about the influence of looter profession, which assumes that L100 looter profession would yield +1% more TT value loot (0,01% per level).
 

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DPS is a double-edged knife. Most of the time it can mean a bigger loss for most people. Those who do not understand the DPS and what range of weapon to choose against the mob that hunt, are not entering in events where may have the effect you are talking about.
I am using same gun vs ALL mobs. The results are fine.

@Orion There are some statements by devs made since loot 2.0, Ferial put together a thread, check it out. There are tests validating both looter and eff. One of the threads was made by Darkaruki. Individual tests confirm too.
 
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