News: PSA Event Exploits

[TheOneOmega]

Though it's still early days for Mindark actually getting stricter on these, as I'm sure people who flagged this issue during this event, 'Tested' the exploits and didn't get progress rollback due to being good citizens. Which again is a bit of a mistake on Mindarks part as it simply just encourages a behaviour of exploit early, then flag to Mindark to protect your ass and prevent others from getting the same advantage.

Part of the problem is that a lot of folks are obsessed with some silver bullet metric as a means to establish cheating. Sound policy enforcement is a more multifaceted process, involving correlating several metrics, interviewing the suspect (about what actions they took, why they took them, their thought processes and goals, whether they knew certain actions were disallowed by the rules, etc.) to establish a narrative, attempting to falsify any suspicious points within the narrative by investigating direct claims and collateral truths (such as by examining the suspect's other actions and conversations for contradictions), and finally, if and only if claims can be falsified to the extent that the individual is believed beyond reasonable doubt by MindArk to have intentionally violated policy in order to gain an unfair advantage, declaring that cheating has taken place and engaging in penalty issuance. In some such cases in which cheating cannot be established, unintentional violations of policy may still be established, often due to a player taking actions which have already been publicly declared as bugs unbeknown to the player. Every case is unique, and there is no magic metric or algorithm for this type of thing that can accurately replace human judgment, judgment which, while unavoidably subjective, should be based in the totality of evidence that can be collected, and not on a single red or yellow flag of suspicious behavior. Fair policy enforcement which addresses the guilty while not infringing on the innocent is a time investment that requires real effort, and transparency and productive communication with the suspect. Shortcutting the process by replacing it with a simplistic fiction leads to the abysmal policy enforcement systems we commonly see implemented on social media sites, which barely even maintain a pretense of operating in pursuit of fairness as opposed to direct profit motive. We would be better off with the admittedly suboptimal status quo of applying enforcement relatively infrequently than settling for a half-baked policy enforcement model.

 

[Ivo Jahrumble]

Aeolus I appreciate your sincere apology

Hopefully after the suspension elapses we can forget all about this

Having the balls to admit one has done something wrong is a definitive trait of character. For sure we all did something we are not proud of along our lifes, throw the first stone who did not sin...

The real issue to me is that those other hardcore exploiters (pun intended) are not virgins in these schemes and those posterboys of the game, who should act as ambassadors, do more harm than good to it.

It is just the same as having as ambassadors of our game people along the likes of Mike Postles, Howard Lederer, Chris Jesus Ferguson instead of Negreanus, Phils Evey´s or Galfonds.

There is a reason why ambassadors of other games are the first to denounce cheaters. They know the harm cheaters do trickles down the chain and sooner or later ALL pay for the fuckups of a few.

Its just sad that MA opts to have those type of characters as ambassadors treating them like roayalty only to get spit in the face once again by the same bunch of cheats who time and time again demonstrate a complete lack of caring for the game and other players. Let alone they are compromising the future of their own so precious withdrawals. Dumbfucks...

 

[Suza]

Guys if i am not misreading... open box in RDI A is a LEGIT way to loot gems.....
1. get a thunderbird or firewall (L)
2. get a 500 / 700 dps squad
it will cost much less (actually RDI is BEP or small profit)

You loot refined gems... so does not count towards the gemologist mission

 

[True Juan]

"They may also have progress/rewards gained from this removed/reset."

Keyword here is MAY... but they almost NEVER do

 

[SpikE Odets]

Sound policy enforcement is a more multifaceted process, involving correlating several metrics, interviewing the suspect (about what actions they took, why they took them, their thought processes and goals, whether they knew certain actions were disallowed by the rules, etc.)

I stopped reading at that part of your post. You do not need to check 'their thought pocesses and goals' to know if someone took advantage of something like this. The wording for the mission in game was to 'Loot Gems by Crafting'. If they got mission progress by any other means other then using the crafting machine and did not report it to MA they used a exploit. If they looted someone and got progress and then sent a support case to MA saying exactly that, they would not be banned right now (I know this for a fact, because the person that did loot someone and report it is not banned). To try and infer that each case has to be felt out by how the player felt when he did it might be the most absurd thing I have ever read on this forum. (and that is saying aloooot)

 

[Deleted member 23281]

MEH ofc more fuking cheating cunts,

Just goes to show a lot of top players, are actually not players, there cheating scamming cunts who while may add a lot to the game, take far fukin more from it then any of us real gamers who spend every last dien moment trying to replicate these low life !!!! could possible imagine, YES this is my fukin rant dont like it garn get fuked , for far to long MA have sat by letting these fuking assholes destroy a game that was fun, team orientated, socially mixed and made u feel like u wanted to be in it for real , some of the fuktards in this post are unbelievable people who i have witnessed time and time again abuse mechanics of the game and not give two shits about it , time for MIND ARK to announce a 0 % policy for cheating and scamming this includes vehicle hunting ,multi person avas , macro cocks, and all the other bullshit that goes on ,, reward the people who dedicated there gaming life to making EU better and not those who run it into the ground , anyway i guess my time is drawing closer each and every time i log on lately , thanks mostly to this kind of shit, so if this post gets up for peeps to read or not meh , give a rats arse,to those who i have had a yarn a hunted with or pked for fun in game ty if i get banned cause i call a spade a fukin spade well nice knowing yas .

MIND ARK GROW SOME BALLS AND USE EM IN THE RIGHT PLACE FFFS

bangfukinfap out .

 

[Aeolus]

You loot refined gems... so does not count towards the gemologist mission

*About Gems from RDI.
But there is another RM Bonus Mission on the Refining Gems. Does it give progress in it?

 

[Nanashana]

*About Gems from RDI.
But there is another RM Bonus Mission on the Refining Gems. Does it give progress in it?

No it does not

 

[Wingpool]

MEH ofc more fuking cheating cunts,

Just goes to show a lot of top players, are actually not players, there cheating scamming cunts who while may add a lot to the game, take far fukin more from it then any of us real gamers who spend every last dien moment trying to replicate these low life !!!! could possible imagine, YES this is my fukin rant dont like it garn get fuked , for far to long MA have sat by letting these fuking assholes destroy a game that was fun, team orientated, socially mixed and made u feel like u wanted to be in it for real , some of the fuktards in this post are unbelievable people who i have witnessed time and time again abuse mechanics of the game and not give two shits about it , time for MIND ARK to announce a 0 % policy for cheating and scamming this includes vehicle hunting ,multi person avas , macro cocks, and all the other bullshit that goes on ,, reward the people who dedicated there gaming life to making EU better and not those who run it into the ground , anyway i guess my time is drawing closer each and every time i log on lately , thanks mostly to this kind of shit, so if this post gets up for peeps to read or not meh , give a rats arse,to those who i have had a yarn a hunted with or pked for fun in game ty if i get banned cause i call a spade a fukin spade well nice knowing yas .

MIND ARK GROW SOME BALLS AND USE EM IN THE RIGHT PLACE FFFS

bangfukinfap out .

I understand you. Please take a moment and calm down.

First, we are all humans, and we are all capable of good and bad things.

Second, in the future, no one will care whether you or anyone else spent their life in front of the PC to play this game.

Third, fear based tactics that MA is employing in this very thread and many here are calling for dont work. Longterm it will be the death of the company and the game. Times are changing, any sane person looking in here to see if this is a game for them will leave quickly after realizing that
a) mindark dont seem to care enough about their product
b) mindark will punish you for their own mistakes
and longterm we need new players if we wish the game to survive.


In my opinion, the proper way to handle this case would have been to patch the unintended mechanic, and then for a Mindark official to come and tell us what that mechanic was and inform us that progress and rewards WILL be (not may be) reverted for those that used that mechanic for that particular mission so it can be done again the intended way. Its fair, its clear, and we can all move on. Its not a punishment to revert a completion of a mission that was completed in an unintended way, its actually expected and normal.

Instead, we have this guessing game where mindark official is very vague about the exploit and how it will be resolved from their end. Ok, so I dont know what the exploit is because they havent told us. Should I stop playing until they tell us or should I continue play in fear that whatever I do may result in punishment? That is a very shitty playing experience, I am here to play the game and have fun, not suffer.

 

[Arthur The Hunter]

I understand you. Please take a moment and calm down.

First, we are all humans, and we are all capable of good and bad things.

Second, in the future, no one will care whether you or anyone else spent their life in front of the PC to play this game.

Third, fear based tactics that MA is employing in this very thread and many here are calling for dont work. Longterm it will be the death of the company and the game. Times are changing, any sane person looking in here to see if this is a game for them will leave quickly after realizing that
a) mindark dont seem to care enough about their product
b) mindark will punish you for their own mistakes
and longterm we need new players if we wish the game to survive.


In my opinion, the proper way to handle this case would have been to patch the unintended mechanic, and then for a Mindark official to come and tell us what that mechanic was and inform us that progress and rewards WILL be (not may be) reverted for those that used that mechanic for that particular mission so it can be done again the intended way. Its fair, its clear, and we can all move on. Its not a punishment to revert a completion of a mission that was completed in an unintended way, its actually expected and normal.

Instead, we have this guessing game where mindark official is very vague about the exploit and how it will be resolved from their end. Ok, so I dont know what the exploit is because they havent told us. Should I stop playing until they tell us or should I continue play in fear that whatever I do may result in punishment? That is a very shitty playing experience, I am here to play the game and have fun, not suffer.

I agree for most part.

Tho i would be VERY suprised that MA would bother to do what you are pointing out.

It should work that way, should have work that way.

I have reached cynical peak where i dont expect them to do anything right.

Small things feel better this way.

I Have mentioned this earlier that creating false hope for better future only leads to more dissapointment in short and long run.

Dont make promises if you dont plan to keep them.

Fix the support and communicate with the community. Hi/Mid/Low

I still do hope they get their shit together but i dont expect it to happen anytime soon or fast.

This thread did spark little hope in me that one day this game will be managed as it should be.

MA has done good things this year tho so points for them starting to try!

 

[The Mind]

On topic: there is no way to foresee and prevent all the possible exploits.
Exploiters are punished in order to incentivize people to report and stop, rather than hide and keep exploiting.
If there is no punishment for such actions, this game will become a race of "who exploits more". Because the worst thing that can happen is maybe "they roll you back" here and there. But you "keep the reward" for everything else. And people will keep trying to find and pull the most of it, robbing this community more and more.

[Moderated: Removed rule violations]

P.S. Mods butchered my post

 

[Wingpool]

On topic: there is no way to foresee and prevent all the possible exploits.
Exploiters are punished in order to incentivize people to report and stop, rather than hide and keep exploiting.
If there is no punishment for such actions, this game will become a race of "who exploits more". Because the worst thing that can happen is maybe "they roll you back" here and there. But you "keep the reward" for everything else. And people will keep trying to find and pull the most of it, robbing this community more and more.

[Moderated: Removed rule violations]

P.S. Mods butchered my post

Punishment doesn't work because it does not address what was behind the behaviour. Its merely a band aid on a symptom. Why else are the exploiters known as repeat exploiters, doing it again and again?

This is why I am calling for Mindark to shape up and do their job properly. To prevent exploits to begin with and deal with any case that slips through the cracks with grace.

 

[Bubba Crowley]

As many players have written, this is easily solvable problem and has been know for other missions.

I am glad that MA has started to actually monitor events so people who use workaround can be cought. This thing with one bonus mission is nothing, nothing.

As far as I know, nobody was punished for Yog Horror pet exploit that had direct effect on outcomes of old Mayhem system. Not one Mayhem, but many of them.

And yeah, btw, some of the loudest people here were deeply involved in that exploit.

 

[The Mind]

Punishment doesn't work because it does not address what was behind the behaviour. Its merely a band aid on a symptom. Why else are the exploiters known as repeat exploiters, doing it again and again?

This is why I am calling for Mindark to shape up and do their job properly. To prevent exploits to begin with and deal with any case that slips through the cracks with grace.

Your understanding of penitentiary system couldnt be more shallow.
Its not about them. Its about protecting the rest of the community from them.
If they dont want to reform, as continuous offenders, and keep presenting threat for this community, they should be perma banned. Problem solved.

 

[lethal]

Punishment doesn't work because it does not address what was behind the behaviour. Its merely a band aid on a symptom. Why else are the exploiters known as repeat exploiters, doing it again and again?

This is why I am calling for Mindark to shape up and do their job properly. To prevent exploits to begin with and deal with any case that slips through the cracks with grace.

Part of prevention is having people who would exploit feel there is a risk to them being caught and punished. The lower people who consider doing an exploit feel the risk is, the more likely they are to exploit. There are many people who followed the rules for years, but slowly graduated to cheating or exploiting in certain circumstances after watching people break the rules and continually get away with it INCLUDING SOME OF THOSE WHO WERE SUSPENDED FOR THIS.

Also, if someone is a repeat offender even after being caught and punished, then they should lose their account. There's no reason to get into the psychology of whether they will be reformed as a person because if they are breaking the rules continually, then they simply don't have a place in the community or on the game. This game is not fulfilling any basic human needs, so revoking access is appropriate as a response. Some take Entropia as a job, but even in a job if you continually break set rules that are hurting the company or co workers, you would be fired for good reason. Terminating someone's account serves the same purpose. (Not saying any of these particular offenders accounts should be terminated, but if they continue to not honor the rules, then they should be.)

Also, some people care less about others and will harm others more for personal benefit just as some will cheat and exploit in more serious ways than others. In this case, the exploit was used to avoid the costs associated with finding gems, which is on average the most expensive part of the whole bonus mission chain to make happen. Personally I have lost over 3k ped specifically doing crafts with very high likelihood of gems. So if I were to do this exploit, I would have circumvented paying 3k ped.

Mindark is not punishing these players for their own mistake. Mindark is punishing these players for noticing they had made a mistake, and using this mistake to gain an unfair advantage against other players. This exploit is extremely unlikely or next to impossible to happen through normal gameplay methods.

 

[LizeLotte]

Some players seems to have no moral compass. Just because you can doesn't mean you should

To many times has this high end group exploited the game over and over again. Has MA no red line?
If not
Then its time to fix that

I am glad that MA has started to actually monitor events so people who use workaround can be cought. This thing with one bonus mission is nothing, nothing.

As far as I know, nobody was punished for Yog Horror pet exploit that had direct effect on outcomes of old Mayhem system. Not one Mayhem, but many of them.

And yeah, btw, some of the loudest people here were deeply involved in that exploit.

 

[slick27]

Last I checked this wasn't a PvP event. I haven't seen any mention PvP event in their statement, nor does looting your own stuff back from your brother's mum's whatever account count as invigorating the economy.

I find it just stupid people here are trying to defend these people and pass on blame to ma to cover every corner. I don't agree with them on auto construction but I do in publicly coming out about this.

You got caught cheating/bending the rules just suck it up and be extra careful because ma be keeping a watchful eye on your accounts

 

[Pogny]

BAN Them, we dont need greedy scammer, world better without them, put their loot back in lootpool everyone will be happy

 

[castanhas]

BAN Them, we dont need greedy scammer, world better without them, put their loot back in lootpool everyone will be happy

WE don´t, the Game unfortunaly does.
And that´s why most exploiters go inpune.

 

[UnaAlconbury]

Only a few days timeout for an exploit so impactful and clearly intentional is a joke. But looking at how big share of top 100 hunters on EL haven't globaled since Tuesday, and knowing how big part of Mindark's income they represent, you can see why.

This is a result of years of ridiculously light to non-existant action against exploits, which has formed a culture among the playerbase. A mindset where it is always worth it to exploit the hell out of everything, and it has even pushed new people into taking advantage when they can, rather than report. Because if they don't, they fall behind those who do. Especially in this race for tokens, there can be huge economical implications from falling behind. The chance of retribution is miniscule, and if you do get caught and have to "serve time" for a little while, it is still highly worth it in the long run.

There simply have to be taken stronger action against exploits, or this game will never reach its full potential. Since above mentioned culture is so rooted and looking at how many were willing to take advantage of this exploit, I guess it wouldn't have been realistic to bring out the big ban hammer right away. But this is a perfect opportunity to start a bigger change. Before every event simply add a disclaimer which states any attempt of exploiting will result in full forfeiture of any event progress and a 3 month ban. Repeated infractions will result in permanent loss of account. Make this perfectly clear from the start. Of course the nature of the exploit has to be assessed, but something so obviously intentional as this gem business would clearly warrant a ban from the entirety of an event.

Stronger action is the only way to change the culture, and make people start reporting instead of joining. When you have too many joining, like now, you (Mindark) can't take proper action since it would affect you too much in loss of income. This must change.

 

[Wingpool]

Your understanding of penitentiary system couldnt be more shallow.
Its not about them. Its about protecting the rest of the community from them.
If they dont want to reform, as continuous offenders, and keep presenting threat for this community, they should be perma banned. Problem solved.

Last I checked this wasn't a PvP event. I haven't seen no mention PvP event in their statement nor does looting your own stuff back from your brother's mum's whatever account count as invigorating the economy.

I find it just stupid people here are trying to defend these people and pass on blame to ma to cover every corner. I don't agree with them on auto construction but I do in publicly coming out about this.

You got caught cheating/bending the rules just suck it up and be extra careful because ma be keeping a watchful eye on your accounts

BAN Them, we dont need greedy scammer, world better without them, put their loot back in lootpool everyone will be happy

Compassion is king.

I did not do what the exploiters did to receive their bans. Never owned a yog. Never received a ban. I don't interact with anyone that did get a temporary ban for this exploit, so I have no idea who really did.

Its understandable if you judge me based on the forum account creation date, but I have been playing the game for over a decade, since before TEN. EL can prove it despite the fact that the account is hidden, look for a TEN item rare drop. I hid it because players were abusing the information it provided against me and shoving the information from it into my face unwarranted when the account wasnt hidden.

You keep talking about specific circumstances regarding one of the bonus missions, and yet mindark have not, to my knowledge, confirmed what the actual exploit was. Therefore I don't know for certain what it was and have been talking in general terms due to that. If you all have confirmed information from mindark regarding this exploit but I dont, then clearly there must be another place than this forum where information is put out. Please enlighten me where that is.

Either way, maybe its time for me to find another community. Its getting quite barbaric and brutal here. You guys should really try to avoid becoming the beast you are trying to slay.

Thanks

 

[TheOneOmega]

I stopped reading at that part of your post. You do not need to check 'their thought pocesses and goals' to know if someone took advantage of something like this. The wording for the mission in game was to 'Loot Gems by Crafting'. If they got mission progress by any other means other then using the crafting machine and did not report it to MA they used a exploit. If they looted someone and got progress and then sent a support case to MA saying exactly that, they would not be banned right now (I know this for a fact, because the person that did loot someone and report it is not banned). To try and infer that each case has to be felt out by how the player felt when he did it might be the most absurd thing I have ever read on this forum. (and that is saying aloooot)

I can say from several years of personal experience in a role of competitive gaming policy enforcement that accurately classifying and penalizing policy infractions is just not as black and white as the folks who want penalty issuance to look like a public execution need it to be.

Of course, some specific infractions are more clear cut than others. A bug that doubles your future loot, triggered by inputting several frame-perfect button presses, swimming underground across an entire continent, and manipulating RAM to turn your avatar into a service center, is probably unlikely to occur without self-aware intent to gain an unfair advantage, while a bug triggered by an action as simple as spawning a Yog in an instance is likely to pop up for a wide variety of reasons, some of which may be cheating (i.e., a player knows that spawning a Yog to increase reload speed is an exploit and does it anyway to win an event), some of which may be unintentional policy infractions (i.e., a player spawns a Yog to increase reload speed but has not yet learned that doing so is an exploit), and some of which may be non-infractions (i.e., a player spawns a Yog for independent reasons, such as seeing other players using Yogs in instances without knowing why). I won't assess which of these two cases the present bug is closer to (I still do not know exactly how it is executed), but as a general policy enforcement protocol, establishing the thought processes and goals behind a suspect's actions is absolutely vital to accurately classifying them, which is, in turn, absolutely vital to effectively and fairly determining whether and how to penalize them.

You mention the wording of the mission, which is a great observation. I think "Do you recall obtaining a bonus mission alongside the main mission?," "Did you happen to notice the name of the bonus mission and/or read its description?," "Have you figured out how to compete the mission yet?," and so forth, could be an excellent start to a line of questioning within an interview with a suspect. Similarly, if it becomes apparently over the interview that a suspect did know something was off, "Did you report the issue?," "Did you plan to report the issue?," and/or "How would you describe the issue in a bug report?" could all make excellent questions. The goal is usually not to ask a suspect directly if they cheated and hope for a confession, but to establish a narrative about what they did and why, which you can then go on to either sufficiently falsify or fail to sufficiently falsify by testing claims and collateral truths in order to move toward a verdict.

I think you're on the right track to some potentially fruitful lines of thinking. But you actually have to investigate these sorts of questions to answer them. Suspects are individuals, not a single, amorphous, collective blob with uniform ambitions and metal representations, and the differences are vital contextual factors in justly applying policy enforcement. You just can't reasonably treat mashing the M button to intentionally crash an Oil rig server for other avatars to pick more Oil and mashing the M button to get unstuck from a bush as the same policy violation; an individual's thought processes and goals matter a lot.

 

[Gopher]

Punishment doesn't work because it does not address what was behind the behaviour. Its merely a band aid on a symptom. Why else are the exploiters known as repeat exploiters, doing it again and again?

This is why I am calling for Mindark to shape up and do their job properly. To prevent exploits to begin with and deal with any case that slips through the cracks with grace.

They are doing it again and again because the rewards from exploting far outweigh the punishment given by MA. The exploiters actively gain money by exploiting.

 

[The Mind]

Compassion is king.

I did not do what the exploiters did to receive their bans. Never owned a yog. Never received a ban. I don't interact with anyone that did get a temporary ban for this exploit, so I have no idea who really did.

Its understandable if you judge me based on the forum account creation date, but I have been playing the game for over a decade, since before TEN. EL can prove it despite the fact that the account is hidden, look for a TEN item rare drop. I hid it because players were abusing the information it provided against me and shoving the information from it into my face unwarranted when the account wasnt hidden.

You keep talking about specific circumstances regarding one of the bonus missions, and yet mindark have not, to my knowledge, confirmed what the actual exploit was. Therefore I don't know for certain what it was and have been talking in general terms due to that. If you all have confirmed information from mindark regarding this exploit but I dont, then clearly there must be another place than this forum where information is put out. Please enlighten me where that is.

Either way, maybe its time for me to find another community. Its getting quite barbaric and brutal here. You guys should really try to avoid becoming the beast you are trying to slay.

Thanks

I said it was suspicious to have few months forum account and hidden EL. I didnt express any judgements upon it. Rather asked a question, in order to clarify the situation, with a limited availability of information i had based on my observation.
And yes, having EL on display opens you to critique to everyone else. And its not always a bad thing. It helps to understand better who is the person you are talking to.
Specific circumstances of the exploit are irrelevant. We know the effect: gems werent looted via the "intended" way making, rather laborious task, pretty trivial.
And please, have compassion for the people who, without asking for it, had their merit of completing this quest in a legitimate way, stolen and devalued (unless MA intervined).

 

[Pogny]

Compassion ?

No, they are doing to screw the system, on purpose.

Getting an unfair advantage over legit players. No compassion for these scammers. they are not usefull to the game, destroying economy and shit, they will do again cause opportunity to eran money > the potential risk to get caught.

So, sorry but no, no compassion if I could know the names, they'll join my ignore list the fastest way

 

[Xen]

As far as I know, nobody was punished for Yog Horror pet exploit that had direct effect on outcomes of old Mayhem system. Not one Mayhem, but many of them.

Not true, people were given rather lengthy punishments.

 

[Mike Kaffeslukarn Morazi]

Just remove the progress in their bonus gem mission and everything is solved. Or ban rest of the event, I guess.

 

[robber]

Just remove the progress in their bonus gem mission and everything is solved. Or ban rest of the event, I guess.

Exploiters should be baned for Life simple as specialy if they are Exploiting harcore u know.

 

[Bubba Crowley]

Not true, people were given rather lengthy punishments.

OK, maybe. But kept the rewards...

 

[James Francis]

how does this affect the market and economy on entropia?