Response on Bad Loot and my MA tracked 91% Returns

bigPaul

Provider
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Posts
185
Avatar Name
Paul Ray Spinn
Going out to hunt and you don't know if it is going to be 95% or 60% is a nerve racking feeling that isn't fun. Like I said before mining on FOMA is less volatile and you of course can at least score a big multiplier.

Guess we will see what happens.

The masterpiece for EU management would be to fullfill both the hopes of the Player-base, and the need for profit of MindArk.

-->In my opinion when they achieved/published those famous stats of 97%-98% in hunting returns, a couple of years ago, they were on the right track :
that could be a good starting point for even fairer future developments/hunting returns

(btw, casually those returns were similar to those of roulette, which is the fairest gambling game).



-->Now a bigger volatility could be justified IF mid-long term hunting returns increase too.


Yes, we will see what happens, after all Players and MindArk share very similar expectations :
meaning that money plays a very big role for both the parts.



UPDATE/Edit
Furthermore, Players don't like too much stress
(that is an undeniable fact , and must be added too : and I just agree with that reasonable attitude).


Paul
 
Last edited:

The Abomb

Alpha
Joined
Oct 5, 2016
Posts
623
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Abomb Abomb ThePeoplesChamp
For the record my support case I opened back up in regards to loot and this thread is still open. I recently added to the support case this morning the extreme volatility in the loot of 65%-90% returns. Something that just isn't acceptable and the current system is way more volatile than back when we had no looters and there are currently a lack of BIG HOFs to bring us up to the 98% returns that we need.


I sent this to MA today

Hunting same mob over 5,000 killed

7019 Cost
6315 Return

89.9% !!!

Currently the 65% to 90% returns are so volatile how can you expect players to hunt? I really don't think needing an ATH just to reach the expected 98% returns is a goal in the Loot 2.0 design. I really was hoping that loot would be stable but currently it is less stable than back when we had no looters.

My hunt this morning around 250 mobs killed and gonna log for the day and contemplate why bother

505 Cost
354 Return

70%

Some might say ohhh 250 mobs that's not enough!! Rubbish!! What is enough? should I of kept going for another 5,000 mobs just to get 89.9% again? No

There really should be no way to get under 85% on 250 mobs killed. Period

Again I rather just have anywhere close to stable returns and faith that we can deposit and enjoy the game. Maybe I will get an ATH and be brought up to the expected returns to compensate for my losses. However I rather just get stable loot as promised with Loot 2.0. This system doesn't work, looter doesn't do anything. At least looter doesn't anymore. I have no idea why MA changed the loot to give such horrific volatility but it is concerning for the community.

Futhermore I might add the lack of a response from MA to my support case or this thread with 30k views is also concerning. I think players need to know what is going on and how does MA plan to address this situation. Lets Make Entropia Great Again, instead of driving away all that is left. Please fix the loot!!!


Thanks
Abomb The People's Champ


PS- The only way this gets better is if we keep talking about it until changes are made by MA to fix the system that obviously doesn't work. We also need an MA official to respond to the community when these concerns arise. I rather go back to no looters and the old system at least that was more stable and the player could have skill and knowledge to get returns. Today that just doesn't exist. A bad system in place is just that, it's bad. So lets make improvements and grow the player base!!
 
Last edited:

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
What exactly is the expectation here? That everyone should be able to go blindly kill n mobs and get 98% return? What number of mobs would satisfy you?
 

MeiGDLing

Provider
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Posts
160
I really hope MA dont believe your opinion is the common one and make changes in that direction
 

The Abomb

Alpha
Joined
Oct 5, 2016
Posts
623
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Abomb Abomb ThePeoplesChamp
I really hope MA dont believe your opinion is the common one and make changes in that direction
Think we have seen many displeased hunters from a wide range of experience unsatisfied with the current system lately. I think it is important to note the current system is NOT working the same as it was first introduced. There are several threads on Loot becoming sour in recent months to make the game nearly unplayable. Some have quit.

I think it would be best for MA to address what has changed and verify some data with hunters Data to make sure that indeed the system is working as they expect and more importantly how the hunter expect! Which isn't asking for a lot. My current desire is for less people to quit that have been loyal depositors and players for many years. These loyal players can only take so much and it's sad when they go. They aren't replaceable. We just don't have the influx of new players to make up for it.

If nothing changes then hunting will just continue to be extremely volatile with no chance of big HOFs like we once had. Loot 2.0 isn't supposed to be extremely volatile like it has been recently which is why there are so many threads and this one has so much attention. Maybe they can just reverse the changes they made in recent months? Who knows what they continue to tweak from week to week or month to month behind the scenes.

MA isn't obligated to announce these hidden changes only we the players can track and see that things have indeed changed and comment on it. Hunters don't enjoy going from sustainable hunting to extreme volatility with monthly returns 5-10% less than what they were getting in Loot 2.0.

Lets be a little more transparent and address the elephant in the room. I love this game immensely so it bothers me when stuff like this happens to the community.
 
Last edited:

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
they should just go with:

Hunting loot events:
10% Chance for 90% return on kill
44% Chance for 93% return on kill
45% Chance for 95% return on kill
1% Chance for 100+% return on kill (aka Multiplier)
garantueed TT-return: 90+%

Crafting (quantity + maxed for chances):
turn all BPs into SIB BPs
5% Chance for fail
1% Chance for 100+% return success (aka multiplier)
36% Chance for 100% TT-return success
58% Chance for 90% TT-return near success

Mining (based on 1 ped per drop):
33% chance for nrf
66% chance for 1,35 PED claim
1% chance for Multplier
add level 14 amplifier > 1,5 times the decay of level 13 amp & 1,5 times the claim size of level 13 amp
add level 15 amplifier > 2 times the decay of level 13 & 2 times the claim size of level 13 amp

This way the minimum return will be much higher, which should make more people stay & attract more people, which results in more demand for items and higher MUs.

Sample size. 5k is nothing.
even a sample size of 390k may produce the same result, been there.
 
Last edited:

The Abomb

Alpha
Joined
Oct 5, 2016
Posts
623
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Abomb Abomb ThePeoplesChamp
Sample size. 5k is nothing.
5,000 mobs killed is a lot especially depending on the size of a mob. Furthermore when this 5,000 mob log is the same as the last and the one before that and the one before that ect...etc... These aren't sustainable or enjoyable! Key word enjoyable! No one deposits to get these types of returns which makes it hard to kill 100,000's or millions of mobs which I do.

Do you think anyone wants to deposit and kill 5,000 Atrox, Spider, Kerb, Agro or whatever they are hunting and get 89.9% and call that okay? It isn't okay! It also wasn't like that when Loot 2.0 came out either.

Loot 2.0 was praised for it's stability and the reason why it was released was to make sure PED lasted longer!!! However PED is going faster than it ever has and this is the real problem. Heaven forbid the players address this new extreme volatility. Even when players raise their looter to high levels and use high efficiency like MA says is important.

This is a game and it should be fun and exciting when you play, your deposits should last but they don't anymore. If you disagree fine. However I rather this game flourish and you get more depositors when the loot is actually working as expected.
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
I think it is important to note the current system is NOT working the same as it was first introduced.
OFC it isn't, lol. :scratch2: It also won't be the same system next week. Those who fail to notice this will lose peds.


Problem is everyone here just wants free money without having to think about it. "I shot a mob and only got 50% back! 50%!!! RUBBISH! I better get my kickback hof next mob!"


Most important human skills for good returns:

1. Observation
2. Timing


If you just make the game where any numpty on PCF can go blindly kill 10 mobs and get 98% the game will die. That seems contrary to what you keep crusading against.
 

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
OFC it isn't, lol. :scratch2: It also won't be the same system next week. Those who fail to notice this will lose peds.


Problem is everyone here just wants free money without having to think about it. "I shot a mob and only got 50% back! 50%!!! RUBBISH! I better get my kickback hof next mob!"


Most important human skills for good returns:

1. Observation
2. Timing


If you just make the game where any numpty on PCF can go blindly kill 10 mobs and get 98% the game will die. That seems contrary to what you keep crusading against.
because all the cheap-to-play games are dead... only the very expensive ones do survive...
 

thoreau

Elite
Joined
Apr 8, 2005
Posts
3,894
Location
Calypso
Avatar Name
Hiro Protagonist
Sample size. 5k is nothing.
Did u do a power test to determine this?

Lots of science is done with a very small sample size with a 95% confidence interval.
 

jetsina

Stalker
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Posts
1,564
Lets be a little more transparent and address the elephant in the room. I love this game immensely so it bothers me when stuff like this happens to the community.
Yup. I like to know what sort of risk/reward structure I am facing. Whenever I get the strong feeling that the conditions have been changed, I throttle back massively to avoid haemorrhaging peds. One problem of a personal testbed is indeed the statistical significance of gathering data alone. Sure, I can kill 800 mobs an hour one way, over 1500 mobs an hour a different way, but some tests simply are not fast and I'm at only 60 mobs an hour.

So, instead of my turning over several hundred peds an hour routinely - and expecting a certain loss that I can minimise quite a lot with mu - I'm down to dabbling and experimenting at a much lower scale fighting this 90%-or-less (way less) monster.
I'm still in the room, but I'm not focussed on what I want to do and happy to do. Maybe MA is making more rake from other higher rollers oblivious to the changes, or maybe it's MY returns that have hit a bad patch and they would recover if I went out again at a higher speed. The problem is that I don't know, which is why we are seeking others' opinions.

So, I got a 350x multi the other day.... off 1 in several thousand 10 pec kills... whoopie! Give me that on a 5 ped kill and I can forgive whatever is normal for a while again! At least I'd be back on turnover pumping it back to MA for a while and then maybe reevaluating. But off a 10 pec kill I can't even maintain 20x5 ped mobs for more than 1 try if the return is 70% again. I give it another go: result=crap again.

I'm not really learning much on low mobs either, except that MA seem to be hardening up on shrap thresholds. It used to be 3x normal cost to kill and you'd still be getting non-shrap. It would appear to be well under 2x now and loot quality is still "poor" - i.e. almost all shrap.

I really don't expect other players who have found out to announce what sort of dpp triggers not just normal loot but 'quality' loot these days, but it would be nice to know if we are really talking all the cost-cutting that can be done for even a chance of something nice, so maybe great normal dpp + loads of enhancers, rings and pills just as the 'buy-in'... Or is it being uber on shared loot mobs that gets the high chances of high mu stuff?
Without knowing, and no apparent way to find out if MA stay silent except maybe to 'buddies', I am unlikely to 'up my game'. I'm more likely to 'down my tools' - and that would be sad!
 

trance

Elite
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Posts
4,283
Location
Old Switzerland
Society
Natural Born Killers
Avatar Name
hypnotica TRANCE blain
I enjoy my break from EU. Thanks to bad loot MA!
 

Taldur

Provider
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Posts
109
5,000 mobs killed is a lot especially depending on the size of a mob.
If it is too much for you, hunt smaller mobs.
You cant expect to be at your expectation value when there are x500 and x1000 returns in your hunts that happen rarely.

Hunt smaller mobs, hunt more MU to reduce impact of volatility on your bankroll. Just adapt to what is provided to you, a lot of people do so successfully.
 

Taldur

Provider
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Posts
109
Did u do a power test to determine this?

Lots of science is done with a very small sample size with a 95% confidence interval.
I have enough data and common sense to figure out that hunting 5k mobs is not enough to be at your expectation value when there are x500 and x1000 multipliers in the game.
 

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
I have enough data and common sense to figure out that hunting 5k mobs is not enough to be at your expectation value when there are x500 and x1000 multipliers in the game.
i had a streak of 390k = 90% tt-return, so stop with this too low sample size non-sense... the system simply is shit the way it currently is. it's way too dependand one those multis and when they don't happen you end up with shit return, eventually even with a 300+k simple size, that's why it needs an overhaul.
 

Taldur

Provider
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Posts
109
i had a streak of 390k = 90% tt-return, so stop with this too low sample size non-sense... the system simply is shit the way it currently is. it's way too dependand one those multis and when they don't happen you end up with shit return, eventually even with a 300+k simple size, that's why it needs an overhaul.
If you killed a mob for every PCF post, people might actually believe you cycled 390k.
http://www.entropialife.com/Profile.aspx?P=315754
 

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
If you killed a mob for every PCF post, people might actually believe you cycled 390k.
http://www.entropialife.com/Profile.aspx?P=315754
PED TT spent, PED TT gained, Return%, amount
Total – Crafting 304961,57168 | 287669,53459| 94,33| 568364
Total – Mining 65386,53864 |56605,36 |86,57| 73238
Total – Hunting 74035,7517| 68941,53612| 93,12

So yes, 390k crafts with 90% TT-return, been there. Pretty sure the same shit can happen on hunting as well, when you get unlucky with the multipliers.

The absence of globals in entropialife proves my lacks multipliers.
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
If nothing changes then hunting will just continue to be extremely volatile with no chance of big HOFs like we once had.
Here is the HOF list from today and then random snapshots from the previous 4 years - I didn't cherry pick, I just selected snapshots at random each year. I can provide more if you like. Can you please point out the big difference from now and prior? I'm just not seeing it...


2020-02-18



2019-08-13



2018-08-17



2017-02-14



2016-08-18
 

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
3,814
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
So yes, 390k crafts with 90% TT-return, been there. Pretty sure the same shit can happen on hunting as well, when you get unlucky with the multipliers.
.

dunno about this, but does crafting have the same 95% average return rate just as hunting?
Or does crafting behaves differently?

I only very seldomly craft but nearly never seem to come above 70% on each crafting run that I do.
It seems to be so much worse than hunting.
 

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
3,814
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
Here is the HOF list from today and then random snapshots from the previous 4 years - I didn't cherry pick, I just selected snapshots at random each year. I can provide more if you like. Can you please point out the big difference from now and prior? I'm just not seeing it...
look back further than 4 years.

we used to have 4k daiks, exas etc every day.
The hof list you just showed looks pathetic compared to a hof list 10 years ago.
 

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
dunno about this, but does crafting have the same 95% average return rate just as hunting?
Or does crafting behaves differently?

I only very seldomly craft but nearly never seem to come above 70% on each crafting run that I do.
It seems to be so much worse than hunting.
it has about 95% in the very long run, which may take 400+k clicks.
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
PED TT spent, PED TT gained, Return%, amount
Total – Crafting 304961,57168 | 287669,53459| 94,33| 568364
Total – Mining 65386,53864 |56605,36 |86,57| 73238
Total – Hunting 74035,7517| 68941,53612| 93,12

So yes, 390k crafts with 90% TT-return, been there. Pretty sure the same shit can happen on hunting as well, when you get unlucky with the multipliers..
Doesn't your very own post say 94,33% return? Which is it, 90% or 94.33%? There's a very large difference between the two.
 

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
Doesn't your very own post say 94,33% return? Which is it, 90% or 94.33%? There's a very large difference between the two.
is reading numbers that difficult? at 390k it was 90%. now, at 568364, it is 94,33%...
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
look back further than 4 years.

we used to have 4k daiks, exas etc every day.
The hof list you just showed looks pathetic compared to a hof list 10 years ago.
Unfortunately the archive only goes back to 2012, but still:




So are you saying if I could see a HOF list from 2010 it would look glorious and everyone was just dancing in a rain of PEDs?

I guess then I'm confused, are y'all complaining about system changes from 2010 or from loot 2.0? Or from just the last couple months which is what I thought the thread was about? Do y'all even know what you're complaining about any more?
 

Alukat123

Stalker
Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Posts
1,566
Avatar Name
Son Alukat Goku
Unfortunately the archive only goes back to 2012, but still:




So are you saying if I could see a HOF list from 2010 it would look glorious and everyone was just dancing in a rain of PEDs?

I guess then I'm confused, are y'all complaining about system changes from 2010 or from loot 2.0? Or from just the last couple months which is what I thought the thread was about? Do y'all even know what you're complaining about any more?
who cares about the hof board in a discussion about general tt-returns.... strawman much
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
who cares about the hof board in a discussion about general tt-returns....
Apparently Abomb, since he was complaining that we don't get the same HOFs as we used to.
 

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
3,814
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
Apparently Abomb, since he was complaining that we don't get the same HOFs as we used to.
and he was fully right in that statement.

but then again, Entropia was another game back then.
 

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
Joined
Sep 25, 2016
Posts
1,084
Avatar Name
Detritus the Troll
and you posting hof boards pictures solves/disproves Abombs issue of not getting hofs how?
I was just curious about his claim so started viewing snapshots of the HOF board over the past 8 years. I couldn't find any evidence of his claim, so I was asking for him to enlighten me.

It doesn't solve anything, was just a curiosity point.
 
Top