Skill vs loot system revealed (for lack of better topicname)

[JackATHherer]

hmm - definition of rando

EU isn't gambling, therefor it can't be too random.
And if it isn't random, then it's predictable, in some way.
Skillgain is one way to give hints, even if they doesn't "say" same
thing for every gain...

Random is defined by the viewers perspective... so as long as we have not found a usefull theory to predict the outcome, its best described by us the players as random.

However from MA point of view it might or might not be random - but from the chip that generates/stores the loot data its not at all random.

I dont see how, wether claims are produced at the drop, or they are already there at unknown locations makes a difference, unless theres a proven theory that lets u find it.

Its all random to me.

 

[akruz]

Welll, i have a good test... its need at least. 2 people, its better 2 (or more) people with similar levels and same equip... ok, the gruoup will walk, stop, count and drop at the same time... Until someone found something, the others will then still and try to find the same thing... or they can still walking until 2 people found the same thing at the same time...

Ok, will have to put a limit of tryes here, but the idea is... If the location is fixed then if guy a try to found something, and found some ores in the location x,y,z the guy b, in the same spot, can found the same ore at the same location... But remember, everyone have to find in the same location... Another thing that can be done... Found a claim marker and try to bomb there, you will found the same thing? if you find, then for sure is fixed... But if you dont find, maybe its because after someone mark a place, then this place its no more showed to the others...

 

[Legion]

Dude that does not work. All newbies should stay away from this post. It will only lead to wasting bomb after bomb. Dont waste your time or your ped on this guys post.

says the hatchling...

And no ofcourse noobs shouldnt use this, cause they only got 3 or so skills at start, ie geo, surv,prosp, and those wont tell you a lot.

And oops, seems i started to play another games just released so been away a bit

 

[Joat]

Random is defined by the viewers perspective... so as long as we have not found a usefull theory to predict the outcome, its best described by us the players as random.

However from MA point of view it might or might not be random - but from the chip that generates/stores the loot data its not at all random.

I dont see how, wether claims are produced at the drop, or they are already there at unknown locations makes a difference, unless theres a proven theory that lets u find it.

Its all random to me.

Well, only way for EU not being classified as gambling, is that MA manage
to present how EU works without being random. (It's the general feeling
of randomness that is importent thou', when something is judged as
gambling.)
So, in some way they have presented EU, so a player can use EU in a way
that is more predictable than random. Any info could give us hints, like
for example when and what global, skillgains and so on ...

 

[JasonJJ]

Meny different things have passed through my mind from time to time about how the loot system works, i can tell you ive got no where . The only thing i am certain of is point DOA in the direction of the mob and left click that works!!

 

[akruz]

Well, only way for EU not being classified as gambling, is that MA manage
to present how EU works without being random. (It's the general feeling
of randomness that is importent thou', when something is judged as
gambling.)
So, in some way they have presented EU, so a player can use EU in a way
that is more predictable than random. Any info could give us hints, like
for example when and what global, skillgains and so on ...

And then, all closed code game are gambling games and i dont fell randomness on it... o... so much easycore people... Just because its more hard to get something(and not a drop to every MOB) its not the same as a gambling game, to me, a gambling game its mainly, if not totaly, based on lucky... So... Why the skills anyway dont? yay! lets hunt like crazy, forget the skills the items....

One thing to everyone, even the pincel and papers RPG have a "lucky random factor" the dice! yes... and when you throw a dice, can be anything from 0 to 10(in a d10) you cant predict the result can you?

But you can say, well, i have 6 chances in 10(60%) to do this... you can do something similar... But, you have to discover by yourself, honestly, i dont believe that MA will change the algorithm everytime someone discover something... Give one proof of that action! A real proof, not a conspiration theory proof!

You can do statics in Entropia, its just hard, but you can... Just need some mathematicians working on it (maybe someone have really discovered something, but wont to say it here, who knows)

One more thing, no one came from heavens and say(in RL) the chances of you do this with a success its just 5%!!!!!! (but, you can calculate it)

 

[Lerxst]

Ya just did How about a few more....



I think we all can agree that you can get claims without gains, I know people that have HoFed without gains. Go ahead and put your thoeries out there. I am sure some would enjoy testing them, and besides it dont mean much when people slam ya..... So long as your thoeries work for you.....

So far testing on my thoery is pretty good. However, if I go and do what Legion does with sharing this info there will be 2 types of responses.

A) Holy shit that works
B) You are full of shit


Problem is I would rather just share with a few friends and people that accept that skills do mean something and leave the rest to figure it out for themselves. Honestly there is no point of going through thousands of peds of testing and refining a thoery or system for everyone elses benefit if they dont appreciate the work or accept the fact that perhaps it's not completely random. Besides, if I post it to the public MA will change it in the next VU...lol

I have created a way to plot my skills and finds and will start logging them tonight. I did a trial run last night but skills and claims on CND were hard to come by last night with the exception of a global and HOF which saved my ass from disaster but I would not have found them randomly dropping bombs in a straight line, I had to work to find them.

 

[akruz]

Well, the fact is, maybe the skills do what you say... but i am a logical person, and this don't have any logic to me, if you give me a proof, then i will happily defend it, post it everywhere etc
I don't have a closed mind, but if don't make sense to me, i will not believe on it until someone proof me it...
And why dont make any sense? Well... Just tell me why MA will implement a code like this? I am studying basic programing, and with i have i can see that its dont make any sense, its just more work...
They have to say:
"If player use orefinder here and have a resource at 100 meters then use random(100) if number > 10 then give skill"
And this is just a ugly algorithm, and generic... Its more hard than it... So... Why?????????????????

 

[WoenK]

Well, the fact is, maybe the skills do what you say... but i am a logical person, and this don't have any logic to me, if you give me a proof, then i will happily defend it, post it everywhere etc
I don't have a closed mind, but if don't make sense to me, i will not believe on it until someone proof me it...
And why dont make any sense? Well... Just tell me why MA will implement a code like this? I am studying basic programing, and with i have i can see that its dont make any sense, its just more work...
They have to say:
"If player use orefinder here and have a resource at 100 meters then use random(100) if number > 10 then give skill"
And this is just a ugly algorithm, and generic... Its more hard than it... So... Why?????????????????

Question is "Why _NOT_?!"
If the player gets no hints at all, it could be considered gambling, which it is not (and if it was, most players woud by law not by allowed in and those in would pay way more to the swedish goverment)
Question would be, if there is a system one could really use to his own advantage without breaking the whole economy.
I rather think that the system is so complicated that trying to make predictions makes it rather unpredictable

 

[Joat]

And then, all closed code game are gambling games and i dont fell randomness on it... o... so much easycore people... Just because its more hard to get something(and not a drop to every MOB) its not the same as a gambling game, to me, a gambling game its mainly, if not totaly, based on lucky... So... Why the skills anyway dont? yay! lets hunt like crazy, forget the skills the items....

One thing to everyone, even the pincel and papers RPG have a "lucky random factor" the dice! yes... and when you throw a dice, can be anything from 0 to 10(in a d10) you cant predict the result can you?

But you can say, well, i have 6 chances in 10(60%) to do this... you can do something similar... But, you have to discover by yourself, honestly, i dont believe that MA will change the algorithm everytime someone discover something... Give one proof of that action! A real proof, not a conspiration theory proof!

You can do statics in Entropia, its just hard, but you can... Just need some mathematicians working on it (maybe someone have really discovered something, but wont to say it here, who knows)

One more thing, no one came from heavens and say(in RL) the chances of you do this with a success its just 5%!!!!!! (but, you can calculate it)

I think you missed one point, the way I presented it, is the way authorities
look at a game, if it is gambling. It's the general feeling and impression
that decides if it is gambling. A game with zero randomness in system,
can still be judged as gambling...

When it comes to statistics, yes, more should do so. I've done it since
2003, mainly progress of skills, but also a lot of tests, like for example
pattern in globals vs prof stand progress, pattern in mining and so on and
so on...

 

[akruz]

But have clues, there are good area for mining the resources that you want, there are good mobs to give the loot that you want, they don't need to give you that kind of clue... Like i said, you have to think in clues that make sense, like, perc that may says that have something near, or not... And again, i don't have this general sense of gambling, this game is much like other games, but there is money involved, and that is the problem... Lets take a traditional RPG, you can say that the slime drop herbs, but you cannot say where, you just know that they have a chance to drop it... So i can say that Daikiba can drop daikiba skin, so if i want daikiba skin i just have to hunt daikibas no gambling at it, you just want a simpler way, but i don't believe that have a shortcut, neither a divine clue... Just go to the right place and then you will find what you want This cannot and never will be classified as gambling, cause we have the skills... If its just shoot, mine etc without skills... then you have a point

 

[Ionar]

But have clues, there are good area for mining the resources that you want, there are good mobs to give the loot that you want, they don't need to give you that kind of clue... Like i said, you have to think in clues that make sense, like, perc that may says that have something near, or not... And again, i don't have this general sense of gambling, this game is much like other games, but there is money involved, and that is the problem... Lets take a traditional RPG, you can say that the slime drop herbs, but you cannot say where, you just know that they have a chance to drop it... So i can say that Daikiba can drop daikiba skin, so if i want daikiba skin i just have to hunt daikibas no gambling at it, you just want a simpler way, but i don't believe that have a shortcut, neither a divine clue... Just go to the right place and then you will find what you want This cannot and never will be classified as gambling, cause we have the skills... If its just shoot, mine etc without skills... then you have a point

My thoughts exactly, MA don't need to hide clues in skillgains to avoid the gambeling status. So why would they bother doing it? Makes no sens to me.

 

[Agis]

ok so here is how i belive it to work, it's been tested by me and it has worked 100% so far, but it's quite easy to screw it up if you dont have a program of sort to keep track of it.

.....

Now when you mine you can get a few skillgains.

If you get a survey/prosp that means something is withing ~150m (can be 200 also but 150 seems the correct one)
mineral sense = somethign is within 100m

ie surv/prosp and mineral sense is a range indicator.
i do think miner is a range indicator aswell but i dont have that skill but i think that would indicate something close ie 50ish meters

Now you can get cga which is a direction indicator and it means u have something within the grid 180degrees ahead of you, ie it could be to your sides but forward.

geology means the exact same as cga but behind you.

if you get an perception this can mean several things but one of them is that there is something bigger in the grid withing 300m

and int means something even more valuable.

perc, and int does not automaticly mean a hof though.

......

any questions just ask



*New update*

The grid is actually circles but hexes were easier to draw, and each circle is your finders range.
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Put it this way ..

I have just have been constantly losing peds by going by peoples "claims are randomly generated " or " the claim is created based by your skill and a number of certain factors"

This guy has something going right here (and yes i havent had time to read the entire thread) first of all where there is skill gain there is loot around that info is conclusive !. BTW the claims in Hades maybe over 1000m under the concrete, MA dont want you mining in city limits so obviously the claims there are set very deep (im just making a suggestion that you skill in hades but its stupid to mine there first of all..

I believe that the loot is already in the ground (flame me if you wish), ore viens are not just ore viens they are Loot veins, and when hunting the loot in the ground is distributed based on the hp of the mob and other variables which is MAs big secret , it is not random. It doesnt matter if you are hunting m, mining ores or enmatters you get any skill gain when mining its a good place to hunt of course the area is the secret as well, but use the methods you have. Depth of your finder may be the difference between getting the claim or having a NRF come up on your finder, the size of the ore in the ground , having better skills yeilds more tt value in ore, and if it is a rare find and you dont have an amp you may miss alot of claims, i believe amps do NOT increase the size of the claim all the time, amps actually amplify the tt value of the ore making it a better chance on finding better ores, noticed getting a sizable without an amp - you get the lower tt value compared to using an amp - in a lot of cases yes an amp may up the size of the claim but not always, better skills at extracting drilling and mining also yield higer pulling per action therefore may yeild a higher tt value of the ore.

People say the prospector and surveyor levels enable you to use better finders getting better depth - without proof backing their claim , skills mean everything in mining more efficiently - anything with hunting and mining skills mean everything and the better the skill the better your efficiency to hell with the bullshit of uber weapons getting better economy, well maybe yeah saving peds on economy , but efficiency is the key - and if you can only survive in this world because of economy you are in the wrong place.

It may cost you money to be efficient - but in my experiences in the long run

its worth it - now try what this guy has said because i have a similar method but unfortunately i get a little carried away, but you get carried away you throw away peds, everyone has done it. Disicipline and Efficiency is the key... Economy will get you nowhere (may be able to save more peds on hunting to continue without depositing) but trust me you may survive longer but it takes a lot longer to get the goals you want.

PS :sorry about my english and grammer im just typing quick based on my experiences.

I dont post much , but when i do post i only do when i think i have something important to add

Agis McKracken

 

[Legion]

forum necromancy ftw.. atleast when it's my posts

And just fyi i have gotten some additional ideas to how the loot system works now aswell but dunno if i'm gonna post it. I'm to unorganized to explain stuff

 

[steffel]

And just fyi i have gotten some additional ideas to how the loot system works now aswell but dunno if i'm gonna post it. I'm to unorganized to explain stuff

just make a vid demonstrating

 

[Legion]

just make a vid demonstrating

naw this is just about how the loot is distributed sort of so not how to find stuff

 

[Shereaper]

it may sound like crap... but how many of you will acutally give it a try?

no one will probably admit to it, but secretly i bet alot of you try it out lol.

I use a system very similar to this. I just never pinned down the specifics like he did. I'm not saying he has the details right , but I am Definitley sure he is on to something. I use geology perception and survey/prospecting as "leads" and I get bettter result than just andom bombing, but I can say I definitley don't understand the details of what Im doing, so maybe a team can get to gether and try this out. looks like it would take about ten miners with one leader dropping the lead probe... then if he gets a skill gain they can all line up at interval and try some drops. I would be willing to throw 100 peds at this with a good team.

 

[Shereaper]

Welll, i have a good test... its need at least. 2 people, its better 2 (or more) people with similar levels and same equip... ok, the gruoup will walk, stop, count and drop at the same time... Until someone found something, the others will then still and try to find the same thing... or they can still walking until 2 people found the same thing at the same time...

Ok, will have to put a limit of tryes here, but the idea is... If the location is fixed then if guy a try to found something, and found some ores in the location x,y,z the guy b, in the same spot, can found the same ore at the same location... But remember, everyone have to find in the same location... Another thing that can be done... Found a claim marker and try to bomb there, you will found the same thing? if you find, then for sure is fixed... But if you dont find, maybe its because after someone mark a place, then this place its no more showed to the others...

This wontr work, because once you find something it goes to your claim rod and another avatar can not drop a probe a\nd find it, BUT before the mining sysytem changed... It was required to get within 5 meters of your claim before you got a claim rod. If your finder finder gave a resource and you were too far away you had to follow it to the claim then a rod would pop up... if you accidently unequiped your finder then you lost your claim. However if you or another player dropped another Bomb in the same spot you would get the same claim again. This leads me to believe the spawn is in the ground. It was not uncommon in PVP for one avatar to watch a guy following his finder, wait for him to straighten out then kill him and go drop a probe on his spot and take the cklaim from him. I believe this is why the system was changed to give you the claim rod as soon as you dropped the probe.

 

[LeWolf86]

Im a early miner and I go with the theory that...

I know Ill spend X PED on my run....
I know Ill drop bombs/probes on my run....
I hope I can get claims from my run....


Essentially I go out and mine whatever area I feel like and if it sucks I change, if its good I continue.

I found my 1st substantial yesterday (135PED of lyst took me 10 mins lol), great find for me... and it was in an area Ive had a lot of luck before. So Ill test the ole theory of area as I play, but mostly I just go around and play.

Somehow I believe its random though... just seems like it would fit best with MA, since generally we dont get TT value/ TT Cost and so MA wins there automatically, if there was a pattern then people could crack it and then TT Value might go over/TT cost more and more and MA would lose.

MA has to win, its the fact of life Ive accepted, all I can hope for is that after MV and repair cost Ill come out equal so I can continue, if not that sucks if above Im happy.

 

[Legion]

Im a early miner and I go with the theory that...

I know Ill spend X PED on my run....
I know Ill drop bombs/probes on my run....
I hope I can get claims from my run....


Essentially I go out and mine whatever area I feel like and if it sucks I change, if its good I continue.

I found my 1st substantial yesterday (135PED of lyst took me 10 mins lol), great find for me... and it was in an area Ive had a lot of luck before. So Ill test the ole theory of area as I play, but mostly I just go around and play.

Somehow I believe its random though... just seems like it would fit best with MA, since generally we dont get TT value/ TT Cost and so MA wins there automatically, if there was a pattern then people could crack it and then TT Value might go over/TT cost more and more and MA would lose.

MA has to win, its the fact of life Ive accepted, all I can hope for is that after MV and repair cost Ill come out equal so I can continue, if not that sucks if above Im happy.

MA dont have to win at all. As their money dont come from when you use the item sort of, it has already been paid. I'm not good at explaining it so perhaps someone else could.

 

[akruz]

This wontr work, because once you find something it goes to your claim rod and another avatar can not drop a probe a\nd find it, BUT before the mining sysytem changed... It was required to get within 5 meters of your claim before you got a claim rod. If your finder finder gave a resource and you were too far away you had to follow it to the claim then a rod would pop up... if you accidently unequiped your finder then you lost your claim. However if you or another player dropped another Bomb in the same spot you would get the same claim again. This leads me to believe the spawn is in the ground. It was not uncommon in PVP for one avatar to watch a guy following his finder, wait for him to straighten out then kill him and go drop a probe on his spot and take the cklaim from him. I believe this is why the system was changed to give you the claim rod as soon as you dropped the probe.

Well, so or its in fact fixed, or before was fixed and now is random, but its really hard to believe in a so great change, that is worst, not better

 

[Menace]

The thing is.... mining, crafting, hunting can't be completely random. Otherwise EU would be gambling. Obviously it's not gambling or the Swedish gov't would shut them down as the gov't is the only one able to run gambling operations.
So.... that proves there is a pattern of SOME SORT. What I don't know.
Problem is this.... if someone DID figure it out.... and share it with all of EU, then MA would have to change the pattern or go broke.
though it's cool that you share your findings here..... it's probably better for yourself that you keep them between yourself and close friends or soc mates. Otherwise....all your hard work will be lost when MA changes the patterns.

OP.... I believe you're onto something. Iron out the wrinkles, and keep the info secret.

 

[Legion]

The thing is.... mining, crafting, hunting can't be completely random. Otherwise EU would be gambling. Obviously it's not gambling or the Swedish gov't would shut them down as the gov't is the only one able to run gambling operations.
So.... that proves there is a pattern of SOME SORT. What I don't know.
Problem is this.... if someone DID figure it out.... and share it with all of EU, then MA would have to change the pattern or go broke.
though it's cool that you share your findings here..... it's probably better for yourself that you keep them between yourself and close friends or soc mates. Otherwise....all your hard work will be lost when MA changes the patterns.

OP.... I believe you're onto something. Iron out the wrinkles, and keep the info secret.

The good thing is that the system is so good so that even if someone completely break it ma wont have to change it. As you can see in my initial post you can get skillgains from several different positions and there are a lot of places that can yield finds so you never know exactly where to look anyway

 

[sakuraqueen]

Legion, u said u have something more to tell us,

then tell us...I would gladly to hear your another theory.

 

[Legion]

Legion, u said u have something more to tell us,

then tell us...I would gladly to hear your another theory.

ok i'll do my best but i'm not good at exlpaining stuff and this is more general on how the loot system works and how the loot get's distributed.

I believe ma's system is sort of based on biorythms and that is why loot goes up and down on mobs and ore etc. More info about biorythms here

What i have said earlier on loot distribution still holds though also. But each continent has one rythm for each thing ie hunting, mining etc, and then also each spawnpoint has it's rythm aswell and each mob type has one and ore type and so on and on. Also yourself has the same one for each activity ie hunting etc. How fast the rythm changes and such i dont know though and havent tested it either as this is just a theory still.

So what one needs to do is to find what ur good at a certain day and then the right mob/ore and spawn are in the right continent and voila better loot.

Get all right and well hello uber