What do you think about David Simmonds answers about EU being a gambling game?

Geralt

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Recently "People Making Games" uploaded a video about EU and interview with David answering some interesting questions.

Best part starts around 14:45 but I encourage you to see it fully.

After David's answers, are you convinced that EU is non-gambling *skill based* game?

 

Geralt

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I know, I wanted to specifically ask the community about EU being gambling game part of the video. Are David's aswers are convincing enough to make you think EU is actually a non gambling skill based game or not.
 

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Are David's aswers are convincing enough to make you think EU is actually a non gambling skill based game or not.
Don't really need his answers to know that EU is not inherently gambling, you just need common sense. So I guess the answer for me is yes, it is convincing enough
 

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EU is not gambling. People who have more than a surface level knowledge of the game know this. Also it has been looked into numerous times by regulators and they have also confirmed that EU is not gambling. In this sense, I am convinced that EU is not gambling.

However, if I was to take only David's response in this video into account, it wouldn't have convinced me at all. Unfortunately I think both the questions from the 'journalist' (being very generous there) and David were pretty weak. David seemed a little off-guard to me, so maybe he was expecting friendlier questions? Either way a more robust come-back to those kinds of questions should be ingrained by now.

Just my :twocents:.
 

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Obviously this game has elements of gambling within it , as do many elements of life.

Since its inception the game has changed to meet international standards , keeping it within the boundaries of acceptable non-gambling regulations.

Hopefully at some point in time , regulations will either grandfathered or move to a more progressive stance , which would allow people to make their own decisions.

This constant Nanny State regulatory stance , helps only those that wish to remain in control , and does nothing to help those oppressed .
 

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Recently "People Making Games" uploaded a video about EU and interview with David answering some interesting questions.

Best part starts around 14:45 but I encourage you to see it fully.

After David's answers, are you convinced that EU is non-gambling *skill based* game?

To the OP: EU is a "gambling game" only if you are a gambler and have no idea how to play this game.
 

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Gambling? Maybe.

I bet he regrets doing it... ;)
 

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I made this reply on the actual youtube:

Hmm.. paying subscription games with no return whatsoever, or free to download and controlling yourself.. and make some money back? Because that's what it's all about.. controlling yourself.. this video blames the company.. but could it be that the ones losing big couldn't control themselves? Ofcourse this game advocates the famous wargames line " strange, the only way to win this game, is not to play". This game is about controlling your urges. Yeah you could chase the hall of fame..and remortgaging your house to be there... but is that the companies mistake, or is it inherent in this player? Wouldn't he have lost his wife and his job if he had been playing world of warcraft? Mindark was investigated of being a gambling game: https://!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/swedish-gambling-authority/ Surely I am biased.. I have been playing this game since 2004. And sure some parts I feel are gambling like crafting explosives. But if you control yourself and look for the opportunities, like free ped you can get at oil rigs or from the arkadian moon and make sure you get more ped back than you deposit, you can be succesful. I am sure I will get flamed for being in this games corner.. but that's something I am used to over the years.
 

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And sure some parts I feel are gambling like crafting explosives
I have the feeling people confuse some basic terms.
The way the crafting is designed , in this case explosive projectiles, might seem for weak narrow minded to be a gamble think again.There is what Developer put us on our disposal (blueprint, QR mechanism, materials, AH that servers for 2 purposes : creating the item used for rockets and metal residue used in crafting) and how we (more like the gamblers) interpret this mechanic (if it cost 20 ped and i do full red craft i might hit the big one).You probably imagine those 2 worlds (Mindar's proposition and player's perception) never intersect therefore this discrepancy.The design is intended for something else and its not a gamble however the community based on their absolute lack of understanding the most minimal way of how the game works thinks this blueprint servers for something else.

You are dealing here with a gambler interpretation that drags into the game other gamblers based on misinterpretation and some rumors which obviously are not true.You might say but hey ATH, sure they are part of the way the system works but once again that's subject to another story which is again misunderstood by most players.

Lets not confuse what gambling is to what type of games gamblers prefer.Also lets not confuse the outcome a gambler have with an outcome a very prepared gamer with solid bankroll doing the same activity, time being a very precious asset in this equation.

There are no systems ingame that behave like a slot machine as long as there are notions available such as markup, Auction house, Players willing to pay, skills directly influence our result, real life skills also change the outcome of a situation and so on.

There are so many ways in which you can interpret this game but if you see gambling in everything you are probably a gambler and you need doctor appointment immediately.
 
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Duhword

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Actually for me the interview convinced me of something else... yes, the question he asked was a hard one to answer. how can anything be considered not gambling if someone may need help from others to prevent them from making poor life decisions. Its not an easy question, and a touchy subject in general. However many have done that in life and surely more will do it in the future. Is it a gamble if you mortgage your house for anything, yes probably. Is that Entropia's fault for offering a product that is desirable? would it be a franchises fault for offering someone an opportunity that might fail? I don't believe so.

So, what did this interview convince me... It convinced me that MindArk is ready to comply with the law, whatever it is now, and whatever it may change to be in the future. They will do what it takes to make sure that they are always legally a game, and not a casino.
 

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Actually for me the interview convinced me of something else... yes, the question he asked was a hard one to answer
Its actually a lot to discuss here and if you pay attention to many details you might figure out, the tone, the way you simple twist everything into the same question over and over again, when you are not prepared to have multiple questions, the fact that you did not mention elements that help your click-bite- able title "Can you really get rich in the world's only "cash-based" MMO?".So when you launch the question that bold to attract more clicks onto your channel that later on will feed your mouth you must have the absolute minimum decency and self respect to do a small investigation if actually getting rich is possible, I am sure asking around you could have had few names that might have explained you if its possible and if its not and what money are we talking about.
But when you prior to that ask for players that no longer play the game for an interview its clear that you need someone that quit because he couldn't make it and most likely he was inclined to deliver some harsh negative experience rather that what's possible or what's not.
Sure dev is unprepared, look amateur, probably is amateur at explaining some elements , probably had few beers who knows, maybe got by surprise with questions, maybe got deceived he will be asked simple positive questions, maybe he did but they cut them so they can sustain their agenda of pointing out that this game is a gamble.
I have no doubt in my mind that the "journalist" ever tried to propose his audience a fair narrative of what Entropia Universe might offer you instead used modern tricks, deceiving elements that sells bullshit nowadays on the internet.
 

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Also lets not confuse the outcome a gambler have with an outcome a very prepared gamer with solid bankroll doing the same activity, time being a very precious asset in this equation.
As long as you're in the realm of educated guess and not in the realm of certainty, is gambling. Surely there can be smart or stupid, calculated or blind etc etc
 

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As long as you're in the realm of educated guess and not in the realm of certainty, is gambling. Surely there can be smart or stupid, calculated or blind etc etc
Depends what you are referring about.Using your narrative only mathematics and other exact sciences qualify but I want to believe not everytime, everything else in life or outside appear to be gambling.So you pay a ticket to fish, you have 3 hooks on your net.You hope to catch 1 fish but instead you get 3, what happens? is fishing considered gambling ? Your educated guess was to catch just one instead the way things works happen to prove you wrong and you got 3. Should your ticket be extra charged? Is fishing dangerous because its a gambling.When you label stuff without being explicit some things become retarded isn't it?
I have more retarded cases if you like where I can twist anything into become retarded gambling if you want when their narrative in real world appear to be absolute normal and we all do it.
 

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To say the game is either gambling OR pure skill based is not gonna give you a correct answer. Its abit of both. But the more you play and understad about the game the gambling side of it slowly diminish.

I liked the intervju but you as a journalist need to know more about the game to make a nuanced and true story. Still i love all the press this game gets. More press gives more players that spread the losses.

//Randy
 

vilfiina

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You can gamble in EU, but it's never going to be a real casino or real gamgling, because they have team of people toying around with returns. If you are doing great, they will tune it down, if you loosing a lot, they will throw in some hofs.
 

Timewarpman1

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I love the broken bone bit. So relatable.

But no so long as there a CHANCE in any activity that cannot be overriden by ACTIVE input other than money, which HAS to come from SOMEBODY, it’s gambling man.

You people worship “skills” and “know how to” the same way poker players revel in their own egos. But unless everything you do is a 100% risk free possibility, you’re all just lying to yourselves, too deep out of your own pockets, widely narcassistic and/or Jaded like hell.

Not to mention sooo much better free games that are OBJECTIVELY more fun and social already in existence for as long as MA has been around.

Just be honest for once, please. It would make EU so much better if we can just get past step one of admitting all you have problems.
 

Timewarpman1

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Depends what you are referring about.Using your narrative only mathematics and other exact sciences qualify but I want to believe not everytime, everything else in life or outside appear to be gambling.So you pay a ticket to fish, you have 3 hooks on your net.You hope to catch 1 fish but instead you get 3, what happens? is fishing considered gambling ? Your educated guess was to catch just one instead the way things works happen to prove you wrong and you got 3. Should your ticket be extra charged? Is fishing dangerous because its a gambling.When you label stuff without being explicit some things become retarded isn't it?
I have more retarded cases if you like where I can twist anything into become retarded gambling if you want when their narrative in real world appear to be absolute normal and we all do it.
Well actually the difference between your example and Eu is while both have an upfront cost and maintence... fishing doesn’t charge you up to a dollar or more each time you want to fish. Sure some places have rules, regulations and fees but if they charge you simply for the abilty to throw your line out every single time regardless of a catch or not, you might want to murder the greedy asshole... or fish somewhere else.
 
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Well actually the difference between your example and Eu is while both have an upfront cost and maintence... fishing doesn’t charge you up to a dollar or more each time you want to fish. Sure some places have rules, regulations and fees but if they charge you simply for the abilty to throw your line out every single time regardless of a catch or not, you might want to murder the greedy asshole... or fish somewhere else.
And yet it is totally up to you wether you 'throw your line out' or twenty fishernets 30 times per minute in the same place ;)
 

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What a lovely divergent thread, which cannot even start in the same place for people because the term gambling means different things to different people, as well as to lawmakers.
However, given that gambling encompasses activities ranging from slot machines that monitor payouts and actively adjust to a payout percentage, to games such as roulette which have no processes running in the background, it doesn't really matter how the loot payout mechanisms work: it's gambling.
On the other side of the coin, loads of stock market participants are not in the slightest interested in the products, as long as the base price rises/falls to the advantage of that participant. It's also gambling but not defined as such by authorities.
Having skills seems to me just to be a 'bank discount' effectively, and paying out in a different currency (crafting result) accesses mu as a means of pitting players against players for where the player gains are actually made most of the time. As for EPs, there is not only the chance of a massive lucky hit on EP4s, but the bps that drop have quite some mu too. Anyone prepared to say anything about those bp drops as a proportion of returns?
Further edit: I'm quite happy to consider EU as non-gambling in the legal sense ...
 
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Larry

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I love the broken bone bit. So relatable.

But no so long as there a CHANCE in any activity that cannot be overriden by ACTIVE input other than money, which HAS to come from SOMEBODY, it’s gambling man.

You people worship “skills” and “know how to” the same way poker players revel in their own egos. But unless everything you do is a 100% risk free possibility, you’re all just lying to yourselves, too deep out of your own pockets, widely narcassistic and/or Jaded like hell.

Not to mention sooo much better free games that are OBJECTIVELY more fun and social already in existence for as long as MA has been around.

Just be honest for once, please. It would make EU so much better if we can just get past step one of admitting all you have problems.

Insulting people who like the game is not going to help your point.

Chill. Take a deep breath. Put some credible references together and try to post a response that would warrant a meaningful discussion.
 

Larry

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I made this reply on the actual youtube:

Hmm.. paying subscription games with no return whatsoever, or free to download and controlling yourself.. and make some money back? Because that's what it's all about.. controlling yourself.. this video blames the company.. but could it be that the ones losing big couldn't control themselves? Ofcourse this game advocates the famous wargames line " strange, the only way to win this game, is not to play". This game is about controlling your urges. Yeah you could chase the hall of fame..and remortgaging your house to be there... but is that the companies mistake, or is it inherent in this player? Wouldn't he have lost his wife and his job if he had been playing world of warcraft? Mindark was investigated of being a gambling game: https://!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/swedish-gambling-authority/ Surely I am biased.. I have been playing this game since 2004. And sure some parts I feel are gambling like crafting explosives. But if you control yourself and look for the opportunities, like free ped you can get at oil rigs or from the arkadian moon and make sure you get more ped back than you deposit, you can be succesful. I am sure I will get flamed for being in this games corner.. but that's something I am used to over the years.

I don't see this reply on YouTube. Does anyone else see it?

I don't see MsPuddings response either.

It looks like "free and open discussion" is not something this pseudo-journalist believes in. Lol. :LOL:
 

Timewarpman1

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Insulting people who like the game is not going to help your point.

Chill. Take a deep breath. Put some credible references together and try to post a response that would warrant a meaningful discussion.
Actually it does. Because those who like the game perpetuate these idealized fantasies that are merely veil constructs of the true nature of the beast. Not everything is sunshine and lollipops.

And why do I need a reference over an opinion? Or in fact on for something like common knowledge?
Do things like probability and addiction not exist in your vocabulary?
 
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Every athlete grows their skills and knowledge to win in some sport events and its heraldet around the world as big achievments comming from hard work - noone accuses them of being gamblers 'believing' in 'skills' and 'knowledge' to 'win' gambling for prizes - in the end it comes down to your point of perception - either you are good at something or you suck - when you suck no amount of money is gonna change it in the long term.

Also keep in mind entropia is an open universe - not everyone plays to make profit alot of people play to socialize, have fun or just cause they like the open sandbox structure that gives them freedom of choice. And all of these reasons can be valid points to consider the game a 'win' on a personal level.

Define your goals - be happy.

Dont let others set the goal for you that make you unhappy.
 

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tyvm i can show this video when ppl asking which video game u play
this game is fking amazing isn't it

amazing→brilliant
 

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After David's answers, are you convinced that EU is non-gambling *skill based* game?
First of all, if you are at the hand of a politician to get your clear answer, for anything, you are in a very bad position. If you have no way to verify, test, find some answer from other parties, you're screwed.
How you answer to this question, be it from this "journalist's" documentary, or from looking at the information you have, tells a lot about yourself.

If your answer is YES, this game is pure gambling, then you too are a gambler too and you will probably be a forever donor, I'm sorry for you, but you just greatly underestimated your brain's capacity to analyze and judge using the scientific method.
If you also put yourself at the hand of the loosing side to get information from, you're not going to learn much from their experiences. At least don't do what they do...
If you understand EU is a platform in which you can do a lot of things (including gambling but not only) then you're off to a good start.

There are many examples of successful avatars - by success I mean people achieving their goals and being overall satisfied with the outcome of their actions. These examples you should be looking at and analyze. As in life, there's no perfect recipe to achieving great results, as the goals are different and the approach varies from individual to individual. This is what sets people apart in this game as well, the approach. There's the student approach, which makes one curious and willing to gather information n order to form an educated opinion and there's the common lazy approach, that makes one repeating what others lazy people are saying, this is a casino, CBA to think for myself, fuck it.

There are many examples of non depositors that got very far in the game, either still playing or left. There are many examples of people with vision that found ways to use RL funds to purchase items, lands or deeds to make their money bring even more money. These are called investors. Why are these two types of people often called liars and exploiters? Didn't we all joined this game in hoping to make real cash for ourselves? Why aren't people looking at the positive examples and tend to look at the HOFs on EP in hoping to make a buck?? Then dismissing the potential of EU as being pure casino game...
Easy money often go easy I guess, and only when it's hard work involved those money mean something and are well spent...

As for the interview, funny, it started with "OK, all we want to do in this video is to explain to you a video game called Entropia Universe". I believed that, for about a minute. They didn't really wanted that, but they wanted something different

I don't need Simmons to tell me if this is a skill based game or not, I can look at my achievements as a non depositor with hundreds of thousands of PEDs worth of markup made over the last few years. I can look at a few people where I know what they did in the game, how far they got by being smart and skilled (both IRL and ingame).

And I also don't need Timewarpman to fix for me a problem he has. Because with all the great tutorials and the resources available on tis forum, his favorite mob is atrox and his favorite crafting item is EP. See the toxicity source? Coz you see, there are many people with a toxic approach to the game, people that somehow failed or have issues with complex inferiority or just very low self esteem and they don't think of themselves capable of good things for their lives and think that people who play the game are doing a grave mistake because in their opinion this game should die because reasons.... A person's actions in life should be towards their own goals and work for what they think it will make them better and happier. Saying this game is trash but spending so much time trying to convince others to not play is worst than being a gambler. They trap themselves in a toxic relation they can't get out of and I don't understand why. Ok you don't like this, you hate that, you despise Simmonds and the MA crew, remove it from your life and move on. Why coming back over and over to something you don't like to tell me I have a problem doing something I like? Why are you setting me your goals? Make your own and pursue them.
I also don't understand the AA group on cancerforum that preach the ending of the game and at the same time bragging about being a very old forum. Forum of what.. is there really nothing left in their lifes worth spending their time on but just coming back over and over and hating on this? Does EU meet your criteria to make you spend your time here? If yes, awesome, if no, why not gtfo and finding that other game that pleases you?
 

jetsina

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... I can look at a few people where I know what they did in the game, how far they got by being smart and skilled (both IRL and ingame).
This! It ties in with comment about athletes: Athletes in RL can be praised because of REAL skills, whereas in EU a lot of the success requires getting over certain avatar-skill hurdles (levels) to make behaviours possible in the first place, and profitable at some point made possible through mus.
One of the only activities to not require any avatar skills is trading, most other results people get are a combination of IRL skills and avatar skills. To repeat my opinion from above: gambling itself has a very wide definition - skills can certainly be helpful in some gambling environments, but not all. Those players who have recognised what the odds are at what times can decide what to do and when. That is IRL skill applied to EU, but it's not 100% of the picture mostly.
 

Timewarpman1

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First of all, if you are at the hand of a politician to get your clear answer, for anything, you are in a very bad position. If you have no way to verify, test, find some answer from other parties, you're screwed.
How you answer to this question, be it from this "journalist's" documentary, or from looking at the information you have, tells a lot about yourself.

If your answer is YES, this game is pure gambling, then you too are a gambler too and you will probably be a forever donor, I'm sorry for you, but you just greatly underestimated your brain's capacity to analyze and judge using the scientific method.
If you also put yourself at the hand of the loosing side to get information from, you're not going to learn much from their experiences. At least don't do what they do...
If you understand EU is a platform in which you can do a lot of things (including gambling but not only) then you're off to a good start.

There are many examples of successful avatars - by success I mean people achieving their goals and being overall satisfied with the outcome of their actions. These examples you should be looking at and analyze. As in life, there's no perfect recipe to achieving great results, as the goals are different and the approach varies from individual to individual. This is what sets people apart in this game as well, the approach. There's the student approach, which makes one curious and willing to gather information n order to form an educated opinion and there's the common lazy approach, that makes one repeating what others lazy people are saying, this is a casino, CBA to think for myself, fuck it.

There are many examples of non depositors that got very far in the game, either still playing or left. There are many examples of people with vision that found ways to use RL funds to purchase items, lands or deeds to make their money bring even more money. These are called investors. Why are these two types of people often called liars and exploiters? Didn't we all joined this game in hoping to make real cash for ourselves? Why aren't people looking at the positive examples and tend to look at the HOFs on EP in hoping to make a buck?? Then dismissing the potential of EU as being pure casino game...
Easy money often go easy I guess, and only when it's hard work involved those money mean something and are well spent...

As for the interview, funny, it started with "OK, all we want to do in this video is to explain to you a video game called Entropia Universe". I believed that, for about a minute. They didn't really wanted that, but they wanted something different

I don't need Simmons to tell me if this is a skill based game or not, I can look at my achievements as a non depositor with hundreds of thousands of PEDs worth of markup made over the last few years. I can look at a few people where I know what they did in the game, how far they got by being smart and skilled (both IRL and ingame).

And I also don't need Timewarpman to fix for me a problem he has. Because with all the great tutorials and the resources available on tis forum, his favorite mob is atrox and his favorite crafting item is EP. See the toxicity source? Coz you see, there are many people with a toxic approach to the game, people that somehow failed or have issues with complex inferiority or just very low self esteem and they don't think of themselves capable of good things for their lives and think that people who play the game are doing a grave mistake because in their opinion this game should die because reasons.... A person's actions in life should be towards their own goals and work for what they think it will make them better and happier. Saying this game is trash but spending so much time trying to convince others to not play is worst than being a gambler. They trap themselves in a toxic relation they can't get out of and I don't understand why. Ok you don't like this, you hate that, you despise Simmonds and the MA crew, remove it from your life and move on. Why coming back over and over to something you don't like to tell me I have a problem doing something I like? Why are you setting me your goals? Make your own and pursue them.
I also don't understand the AA group on cancerforum that preach the ending of the game and at the same time bragging about being a very old forum. Forum of what.. is there really nothing left in their lifes worth spending their time on but just coming back over and over and hating on this? Does EU meet your criteria to make you spend your time here? If yes, awesome, if no, why not gtfo and finding that other game that pleases you?
Those are a bit skewed data since Ep 2 is something I can do forever on my budget, and hunting is something I've rarely done.
My main profession is mining by the way, something that's still swirling the toilet.

Anyway, I can summarize your bias in two words. Bigger budget.

Oh yes I would have loved to have purchased those land deeds at the time, had they not been just out of reach at 1,000 ped or so. Or some other "investment" but there would have to be something in my range all those years of 20-50 bucks spread out over a month or longer.

But hey, it's my dime that fuels your achievements as do many others. You beat the chest all you want how accomplish you are while you trample over the countless others lost to a zero-sum system.

Believe me, I remember when I could play for weeks mining back in the day.... oh how I remember wanting to be a full time miner...
 

Timewarpman1

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Every athlete grows their skills and knowledge to win in some sport events and its heraldet around the world as big achievments comming from hard work - noone accuses them of being gamblers 'believing' in 'skills' and 'knowledge' to 'win' gambling for prizes - in the end it comes down to your point of perception - either you are good at something or you suck - when you suck no amount of money is gonna change it in the long term.

Also keep in mind entropia is an open universe - not everyone plays to make profit alot of people play to socialize, have fun or just cause they like the open sandbox structure that gives them freedom of choice. And all of these reasons can be valid points to consider the game a 'win' on a personal level.

Define your goals - be happy.

Dont let others set the goal for you that make you unhappy.
I would love to see the olympic event where all the gold medals are determined on who gets the most points in a slot tournament :p

Look the only "knowledge" most people had was knowing that the game ran on a wave algorithm and boosted bps that have finally been disclosed. Basically just gaming the system. Props to them for shaking down MA.

Oh and the traders who don't really play so much as have enough option in their stock portfolio.

Come on man, if you seriously came to this game first and foremost for any other reason than to make money, you are a shit-eating grin LIAR!
How can you people still type those excuses with a straight face like your paragons of moral righteousness?

And with so many other better cheaper, including free, far vastly superior to MA in every way.... I just can't stand see indoctrination like that you know. I hope for your sake you're not sugar coating stuff like this to every newbie. They deserve the full story, not some idealist fantasy that let's face it, only comes true for a TINY percentage of elite and no one else.
 

Evey

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Evey Eve Everglades
They deserve the full story, not some idealist fantasy that let's face it, only comes true for a TINY percentage of elite and no one else.
The rule to get to the tiny percentage gang of profiting is not to be stupid. That's it. Same goes for the casinos. An experienced dealer can go in a casino and win, because he or she will play by house's rules. In this game many come with made up rules and principles and suck dirt pretty quick. Stop comparing anything else to EU. Learn to play it and you can come pretty quick to the suitability plateau, where you can do much more...
Just don't be stupid. That's it.
 
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