Why Space is PVP (IMHO)

[JohnCapital]

Lots of complaints about space, mostly about its PVP aspect. The specific complaint depends on your personal opinion. You all know where you stand on this subject. This thread is NOT about those things, so please don't bring up tired debates already posted.

However, something that I don't think many have truly considered is "Why is space lootable PVP?"

The simple fact is, MA's latest business model (planets run by individual small businesses) required this move.

Each of the "planets" are independent small businesses, each working under a payment condition that says they earn less if players go to someone else's planet. They are dependent on player activity on their planet for income. For example, If one of us goes to Arkadia, the business that runs RockTropia does NOT get any revenue. Nothing. Nada. Zero. (Except for a small amount if that ava was born on Rocktropia, but it truly is a small compensation compared to being able to keep that ava on RT.)

MA wants as many planet partners as they can sign on, and each of these businesses are supposed to be responsible for advertising and bringing in their own quantiy of new players. MA also doesn't want to have to deal with one or more of them complaining that planet so-and-so is stealing their players (read: income base). They anticipated (or more likely learned quickly from the actions/activities of the first two/three planets) that they needed a way to discourage mass planet transportation. However, they also want every player to use the same avatar on all planets, and want/desire a small amount of trade between them. It is a nasty cath-22.

So how does MA encourage the planets to focus on getting their own new customers instead of just making big promotions aimed at established players? Pretend you're MA. It's your job to figure out how to restrict transportation, while still allowing it. Keep in mind that players will always adjust their actions based on the circumstances. How can you accomplish this? Worse yet, how to accomplish it without having to create a whole complicated new system foreign to MA's RCE model?

Simple: Make transportation between planets a pain in the ass, while still allowing such if you are brave enough.

And hey-presto! Lootable space.

The truth is, lootable PVP was the easiest, and honestly, best method MA had to keep planets (I.E. separate small businesses) both highly separate, yet able to interact with a single avatar. Of course there are plenty of opinions about "non-PVP corridors", and other ideas ranging from simple to two shades below brain surgery. And perhaps changes may occur as MA matures in this dept. However for now space is lootable PVP, and now hopefully we have a better understanding of why.

If your response is simply "PVP was a bad idea", please don't bother replying. It's what we have and you've already likely bitched about it in plenty of other threads. The only responses I hope here are whether you disagree about why they made space this way, or similar on-topic comments.

 

[Xen]

Nah, it was done to help the people who invested in Motherships and Hangars, so they could run a transportation business for people with loot.

This is also why they allowed logout on Motherships/Privateers, which was probably originally an oversight.

Lootable space doesn't keep people on planets, it's very easy to travel through space without stackables. Watch on May 1.

 

[Huskie]

So how does MA encourage the planets to focus on getting their own new customers instead of just making big promotions aimed at established players? Pretend you're MA. It's your job to figure out how to restrict transportation, while still allowing it. Keep in mind that players will always adjust their actions based on the circumstances. How can you accomplish this? Worse yet, how to accomplish it without having to create a whole complicated new system foreign to MA's RCE model?

Simple: Make transportation between planets a pain in the ass, while still allowing such if you are brave enough.

And hey-presto! Lootable space.

The truth is, lootable PVP was the easiest, and honestly, best method MA had to keep planets (I.E. separate small businesses) both highly separate, yet able to interact with a single avatar. Of course there are plenty of opinions about "non-PVP corridors", and other ideas ranging from simple to two shades below brain surgery. And perhaps changes may occur as MA matures in this dept. However for now space is lootable PVP, and now hopefully we have a better understanding of why.

Your theory about motivations is probably right, but I disagree on it being the easiest and best method. They could have simply made space travel require more expensive resources (i.e. making space-worthy ships less common and/or consume more fuel in space) and somehow tie player skills into it, to make the whole thing cheaper the more skilled you are, just like for tiering up items. That way space travelling would still consume time and money, make transporting avatars a more viable profession as well as promote the retention of new players on all planets, since their low skills would be a setback to their space travelling everywhere.

The problem with MindArk is that they don't consult the players for things like this. I'm not saying they should do everything the way the community suggests, but making a thread like "How would you like this or that feature to be, considering that A, B and C?" and then watching the suggestions as well as their own ideas surely would make EU as a whole a much more pleasant place.

But hey, communication {removed} has been terrible for a long time and player retention and satisfaction suffers greatly from it, as can be seen from the constantly dwindling playerbase.

 

[Steve_saber]

Not opposed to having pvp space, just opposed to 100% lootable pvp space.
Why not a pvp-non-lootable (like Amethera) route with mobs, that takes longer? You wouldn'nt be lootable, but could take hours to get to you destination, and have to shoot your way there?
Or a totally non-lootable route with a tax, similar to tp? (High of course, maybe 100 ped or something) Yes you'd have to pay a pilot or pay the tax yourself, but at least you have the option not to pay some {removed}...er pirate all you have.

Then it's an option at least which route you wanna choose?
Each route still has a consequence, and you at least have a choice.
Want to bet it all, you have the option and choose lootable. If that's your thing have fun.

Make lootable the shortest, most lucrative route...but it shouldn't be the only route.

 

[EMW]

Nah, it was done to help the people who invested in Motherships and Hangars, so they could run a transportation business for people with loot.

This is also why they allowed logout on Motherships/Privateers, which was probably originally an oversight.

Lootable space doesn't keep people on planets, it's very easy to travel through space without stackables. Watch on May 1.

Good post, it should give some perspective!

I for one really cant be bothered to even take ammo into space in a quad,to dignify or lower myself! (and thats not meant in an arrogant way)engaging combat with some 6 month old no skills newb! just not worth the effort!

When i want to craft on another planet I will just hire a warp taxi to take me there with 10s of thousands of peds of mats! which as u say helps the real space economy, IE ms owners, not {removed} 'pirates' with less skills than daisy cold finger!(and thats not even having a go at dcf, i actually have more respect for him than a lot of these new pretenders!) talking {removed} about their economy!

When it becomes worthwhile to be good at space PK I will be a the forefront of that, but for now, in my opinion only MS and privateer owners have any recall to speak about economy!

 

[burnsey]

Not opposed to having pvp space, just opposed to 100% lootable pvp space.
Why not a pvp-non-lootable (like Amethera) route with mobs, that takes longer? You wouldn'nt be lootable, but could take hours to get to you destination, and have to shoot your way there?
Or a totally non-lootable route with a tax, similar to tp? (High of course, maybe 100 ped or something) Yes you'd have to pay a pilot or pay the tax yourself, but at least you have the option not to pay some scumbag theif...er pirate all you have.

Then it's an option at least which route you wanna choose?
Each route still has a consequence, and you at least have a choice.
Want to bet it all, you have the option and choose lootable. If that's your thing have fun.

Make lootable the shortest, most lucrative route...but it shouldn't be the only route.

There already is a non-lootable route.

 

[JohnCapital]

Nah, it was done to help the people who invested in Motherships and Hangars, so they could run a transportation business for people with loot.

Good post, it should give some perspective!

Well, I'll happily go along with "that's another very good reason", but...

Do you really think they made space PVP just for hangar owners, and not for planet owners?

 

[slasha]

There already is a non-lootable route.

true , honestly folks the best solution is already here in its most dilute form . You either like it or you dont like it , for your own reasons . If it were any other way you would get the same mixed opinions just from the other foot .

If you make it easy , no risk then people leave the new planets with all their loot to sell it on cally where the best prices can be had generally. FACT .So there needs to be a risk . FACT .
no other solution does this AND adds more than one dynamic to the game . Conclusion, were looking at it , get used to it .

 

[EMW]

Well, I'll happily go along with "that's another very good reason", but...

Do you really think they made space PVP just for hangar owners, and not for planet owners?

I dont know why they made it JC and then i became even more confused when they took our skills away too, like hp shouldnt matter all of a sudden, I just dont understand it at all, but as you already know from our chats...I am massively retarded!

one thing for sure tho, i think! it cant help planet partners, how could it!

As someone said in another post, you can go to pvp4 and you know the risks with a choice, if you get a nice loot you can lose it! This doesnt compete in any way shape or form to space travel to other planets! unless you accept, you will stay where you are or born? and never venture elsewhere.

It also goes against the grain for me that some brand new ava can in effect laugh at me in space with all the money time and effort that has been put into the game so far!

 

[JohnCapital]

I am massively retarded!

Let's just say we disagree.

 

[EMW]

let's just say we disagree.

i am ffs ask anyone.

 

[Steve_saber]

There already is a non-lootable route.

Ahhh true enough, I can try to book and day and time with someone with a MS then log out till we get to the destination....how convienient...

 

[Xen]

Well, I'll happily go along with "that's another very good reason", but...

Do you really think they made space PVP just for hangar owners, and not for planet owners?

I don't see how it really helps planet owners. It's not very difficult to fly around with a quad, and the cost is very low. And if you have loot the mothership flights are not expensive.

 

[Mega]

If your response is simply "PVP was a bad idea", please don't bother replying. It's what we have and you've already likely bitched about it in plenty of other threads. The only responses I hope here are whether you disagree about why they made space this way, or similar on-topic comments.

{removed}

If you are going to abuse your position as moderator to delete opinions you dislike /disagree with then I suggest you stop creating thread topics.

Oh look I've been JC'd

 

[EMW]

I don't see how it really helps planet owners. It's not very difficult to fly around with a quad, and the cost is very low. And if you have loot the mothership flights are not expensive.

you say its not very difficult to fly around in a quad!

Ok last week, I made a concerted effort to try and loot the Archon BP by crafting on NI or Ancient Greece, I hired a warp taxi from NI to Caly and back, with, I dont recall, maybe 10k ped of mats or so, as it happened and irrelevant to this chat in some ways! I actually discovered it(cant tell you how much that meant to me btw!!)

no one would take that risk in a quad.

I do agree with you tho that it doesnt help planet parters in the least!

#after re reading ure post I think i misunderstood and we just said the same thing! sorry bout that

 

[JohnCapital]

{removed}

If you are going to abuse your position as moderator to delete opinions you dislike /disagree with then I suggest you stop creating thread topics.

The request to please stay on topic was made as a forum user, not as a mod. And it's not an unknown request. I simply don't want this thread to devolve into "space sucks" "no, pirates rule" stuff that's been in many threads already.

 

[Mega]

The request to please stay on topic was made as a forum user, not as a mod. And it's not an unknown request. I simply don't want this thread to devolve into "space sucks" "no, pirates rule" stuff that's been in many threads already.

Dont know what else to say:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?200730-Rate-the-Moderator-JohnCapital

It's there.

 

[Steve_saber]

The request to please stay on topic was made as a forum user, not as a mod. And it's not an unknown request. I simply don't want this thread to devolve into "space sucks" "no, pirates rule" stuff that's been in many threads already.

Actually, the request may have been made as a forum user, but the mod is wielding the hammer heavy...just sayin.

 

[DurakJung]

However, something that I don't think many have truly considered is "Why is space lootable PVP?"

The simple fact is, MA's latest business model (planets run by individual small businesses) required this move.


However, they also want every player to use the same avatar on all planets, and want/desire a small amount of trade between them. It is a nasty cath-22.

Simple: Make transportation between planets a pain in the ass, while still allowing such if you are brave enough.

And hey-presto! Lootable space.
QUOTE]

Actually this has been touched on before and I am sure most professional people fully realise the why lootable space was implemented. However it is nice to see it put clearly for all to see

J

Basically MA wants their cake and be able to eat it too.

The original business model of Entropia Universe was an excellent one with the main planet and some space planet/stations.

Then the idea to bring/sell extra planets and land areas to basically give a temporary increase to the cash flow was implemented.

This game is not like a lot of others and as most who have been here for awhile and play the game to its full extent know that it takes an enormous amount of money (for a game) to play and skill.

Continuing as it is there is no way that all these planets can become self sustainable in the short term. It will take years.

From my observations these planets are generally being supported mostly by the existing player group and not a lot of new blood.

Of course there are many new players coming in however if they stay it will take years for them to inject the finances that the planet partners need to become self supporting.

I cringe as each planet is introduced and from the business side I have no idea why anyone would invest huge amounts of money into extra planets that have no immediate future. If the trend to just keep increasing empty eye candy to raise funds eventually it will reach a saturation point and with a great risk of failure to some of the partners.

Keep adding sugar to a cup of water and eventually the solution cannot dissolve the sugar any further.

Digressing here however the purpose of my post is that I personally think that the lootable space has had more adverse affect on the planets than positive.

The op mentioned mass planet transportation being seen as a negative. Of course at first it could affect the individual planets economy however as time went on it would even out.

The individual planets could only improve from the movement of experienced players through them. The restricting of these players I believe is not an advantage to the planet partners.

 

[zen]

Well. whatever the reason behind the creation of lootbale space but this is what I have seen " two of my fl are enjoying EvE online after seeing lootable EU space" lol lol lol

Maybe EvE is another galaxy I have yet to see

 

[macca]

You are no doubt correct about the reason for MA having pvp in space, but have a look at the results, ava's are all over the place!!
Many avatars bounce around from planet to planet. Just have a look at their tracker results, and these are the people who deposit regularly and in quantity.
PVP in space has put off new players not encouraged them
I think the planets have well and truly started competing for peds by putting on events, new areas, new ideas! (just look at the number of players changing planets just for an event, new items, competitions, new land areas) I see it all the time.

I think opening up space will promote (even force) competition between planet owners encouraging awesome new ideas, which I think is the the way forward, encouraging a lot more players and money to enter the game.
Unlike some, I cannot see this place thriving with people staying on one planet, fine for some but extremely limiting from my point of view.
A lot of people join this game because of its size and freedom, exploration is something rarely mentioned but a big part of why many players are here.

A BIG P.S. mate........In my 5+ years in the game, nobody I know of from my part of the world can even play in pvp. Until MA gets a new server in this region, the pvp in space is paramount to criminal when we have a download speed of down to 7 KB/S. Impossible to compete! (heard what you said about the topic mate, but..... DUMP PVP) at least until its reasonably fair!

 

[Steve_saber]

you are no doubt correct about the reason for MA having pvp in space, but have a look at the results!
many avatars bounce around from planet to planet. just have a look at tracker results, and these are the people who deposit regularly and in quantity.
PVP in space has put off new players not encouraged them
I think the planets have well and truly started competing for peds by putting on events, new areas, new ideas! (just look at the number of players changing palnets for an event, new items, competitions, land areas) I see it all the time.
I think opening up space will promote competition and will be the way forward, encouraging a lot more players and money to enter the game.
A lot of people join this game because of the size and freedom, exploration is something rarely mentioned but a big part of why many players are here.

A BIG P.S.mate........In my 5+ years in the game, nobody I know of (or very few) from my part of the world can even play in pvp. Until MA gets a new server in this region the pvp in space is paramount to criminal when we have a download speed of down to 7 KB/S. Impossible to compete! (heard what you said about the topic mate...... dump pvp)

Nice post Mac +rep

 

[Sirhc]

I've seen decent content on different planets but wouldn't it be better for the PPs to compete content wise to attract and retain players instead of PVP lootable space? I don't mind sections being PVP but I think there should be space lanes even if they take longer or you have to blast through some mobs to get where you want to go. Ahhh well it is what it is I just know I won't be carry any loot in space unless I want to have some fun and make a manhunt type event for some fun like in the past.

 

[Mega]

Mindstar 9 used to have a similar problem as you. Deleting and editing opposing / conflicting viewpoints.

I suggest you get one of your "Chosen Few" to post then others can debate their merits without the weirdness that happens in one of your created threads.

Go for it Sauron!

 

[EMW]

Mindstar 9 used to have a similar problem as you. Deleting and editing opposing / conflicting viewpoints.

I suggest you get one of your "Chosen Few" to post then others can debate their merits without the weirdness that happens in one of your created threads.

Go for it Sauron!

Yaaaaaaaawn!

 

[Neil Stockton]

Nah, it was done to help the people who invested in Motherships and Hangars, so they could run a transportation business for people with loot.

This is also why they allowed logout on Motherships/Privateers, which was probably originally an oversight.

Lootable space doesn't keep people on planets, it's very easy to travel through space without stackables. Watch on May 1.

I agree with everything in this post. Lootable PVP doesn't keep me on a particular planet. But it does make me consider taking a mothership if I have lootable items.
If there is any barrier to personal travel, it's the time needed to fly from planet to planet. For those who haven't done it yet or who are afraid of PVP zones, there's a psychological barrier, ofc.

I think one of the main reasons space is lootable PVP is that it simply makes space more interesting. Right now there's not a lot to do there, it's mostly just a big open, empty highway to your destination. So lootable PVP spices it up a bit.

Personally, I think this: what is better for MA and PPs, for a player born on a planet to get bored and not play, or for him to travel to another planet that he finds more interesting? In case 2, the original PP does get 25% of his "taxes", which is better than the nothing they'd get if he stopped playing. So, I think free space travel only really helps the game, and MA doesn't need to make personal space travel too difficult.

 

[Serica]

Not everyone reads EF now, so may not have seen what Bjorn|MindArk posted there a couple of months ago:

Having lootable PvP in space is a very important part of the long term design concept of Entropia's multiple planet single universe.

One important issue that many people who complain about space PvP seem not to appreciate is that without any sort of risk when transporting resources and materials between planets, it would be very difficult to enable local planetary economies to emerge.

Without those transport costs and potential risks, traders would simply relocate all resources found on newer planets to the largest market (currently Calypso), and the local planet economies would suffer. Similarly, buyers of crafted and looted items would also flock to the largest market for convenience and lower prices.

If travel and transport between planets is completely risk-free, the end result will be one very active market hub, at the expense of the local planet economies.

Mindark's goal is to create a system that allows vibrant economies to develop on all of the planets, not only Calypso. PvP in space is one part of the system design to achieve that goal.

My understanding of that is: Space is PVP, not so much to restrict the movement of avatars from planet to planet (as I think is the main thrust of JC's OP), but to limit the movement of resources, in order to encourage the growth of local planetary economies.

 

[humanwoman]

All this argument is about protectionism being good or bad for the universe ecomony.

MA apparently thinks it's good, I think we will see in a short while if the planets are able to attract a substantial number of their own depositors.

I'd say they failed so far...

 

[Danton]

Not everyone reads EF now, so may not have seen what Bjorn|MindArk posted there a couple of months ago:

[...]

My understanding of that is: Space is PVP, not so much to restrict the movement of avatars from planet to planet (as I think is the main thrust of JC's OP), but to limit the movement of resources, in order to encourage the growth of local planetary economies.

This happens anyway. Look at auction, by example for Arkadian weapons. They are cheaper to buy on Caly than on Arkadia. PvP Space doesn't help to prevent such things. For me, space PVP is only stealing my *time*, aka the 40 minutes I need to fly through it. Personaly it doesnt stop me to go where ever I want. If someone wants to waste PEDs while firing on an empty ship... yaaawn. I don't care. This counts for nearly all on my FL. They don't care about beeing shooten down. They go where they want, whenever they want. So for many ppl flight time is wasted time, nothing more - nothing less.

 

[CAPPY]

The simple fact is, MA's latest business model (planets run by individual small businesses) required this move.


MA wants as many planet partners as they can sign on, and each of these businesses are supposed to be responsible for advertising and bringing in their own quantiy of new players. MA also doesn't want to have to deal with one or more of them complaining that planet so-and-so is stealing their players (read: income base). They anticipated (or more likely learned quickly from the actions/activities of the first two/three planets) that they needed a way to discourage mass planet transportation. However, they also want every player to use the same avatar on all planets, and want/desire a small amount of trade between them. It is a nasty cath-22.

And this is where i think MA might be going in the wrong direction, as PP have now repeatedly failed in attracting and retaining a sufficient amount of new players to even have what could be considered a viable business on its own.
Unless the long term plan is to Repo failed planets and own a wonderful big universe built on other peoples monies?

In real life insular economies have proven to be extremely hard to sustain in the long run yet MA is creating exactly that by making space lootable.... It will definitely be interesting to see how that develops.

From my observations these planets are generally being supported mostly by the existing player group and not a lot of new blood.

Of course there are many new players coming in however if they stay it will take years for them to inject the finances that the planet partners need to become self supporting.

I cringe as each planet is introduced and from the business side I have no idea why anyone would invest huge amounts of money into extra planets that have no immediate future. If the trend to just keep increasing empty eye candy to raise funds eventually it will reach a saturation point and with a great risk of failure to some of the partners.

Keep adding sugar to a cup of water and eventually the solution cannot dissolve the sugar any further.

I Agree 100%

Nah, it was done to help the people who invested in Motherships and Hangars, so they could run a transportation business for people with loot.

This is also why they allowed logout on Motherships/Privateers, which was probably originally an oversight.

Lootable space doesn't keep people on planets, it's very easy to travel through space without stackables. Watch on May 1.

Yes on the last part and Somewhat yes on the first part. That is just a Marketing strategy for players to see a value into acquiring such beautifully arranged pixels at an insane price

Your theory about motivations is probably right, but I disagree on it being the easiest and best method. They could have simply made space travel require more expensive resources (i.e. making space-worthy ships less common and/or consume more fuel in space) and somehow tie player skills into it, to make the whole thing cheaper the more skilled you are, just like for tiering up items. That way space travelling would still consume time and money, make transporting avatars a more viable profession as well as promote the retention of new players on all planets, since their low skills would be a setback to their space travelling everywhere.

The problem with MindArk is that they don't consult the players for things like this. I'm not saying they should do everything the way the community suggests, but making a thread like "How would you like this or that feature to be, considering that A, B and C?" and then watching the suggestions as well as their own ideas surely would make EU as a whole a much more pleasant place.

But hey, communication {removed} has been terrible for a long time and player retention and satisfaction suffers greatly from it, as can be seen from the constantly dwindling playerbase.

While in a perfect scenario i agree that consulting the player base for major changes would be great, the reality is quite the opposite.
1- The Players (clients of MA) will not be bias as too the financial objectives of MA and always demand changes that will most probably reduce revenue opportunities for MA. Greed is powerful force and in this case, since great amounts of monies are being spent both on the player side and MA side it will always remain a challenge to keep both side happy. MA is not a government, MA is GOD as far as EU is concerned. As long as the player base remains as small as it is i believe that MA will have to remain acting as GOD and only give us the illusion of having somewhat of an opinion on changes that cannot affect the economy on a large scale.

2- Even if they were to consult us every time, there would always be groups of players that would feel left out for one reason or another and people would still complain ... it's human nature.

I dont know why they made it JC and then i became even more confused when they took our skills away too, like hp shouldnt matter all of a sudden, I just dont understand it at all, but as you already know from our chats...I am massively retarded!

one thing for sure tho, i think! it cant help planet partners, how could it!

As someone said in another post, you can go to pvp4 and you know the risks with a choice, if you get a nice loot you can lose it! This doesnt compete in any way shape or form to space travel to other planets! unless you accept, you will stay where you are or born? and never venture elsewhere.

It also goes against the grain for me that some brand new ava can in effect laugh at me in space with all the money time and effort that has been put into the game so far!

I honestly believe all the major changes we have seen recently, skills vs tiers, space,etc.. are an attempt to attract new players. Eve has been very successful and from what I've gathered has a much larger player base with pvp space as a concept.
A new player can now join the game and with a deposit of a couple hundred $$$ can gear up and play PVP in space. With a few more deposits they can buy PK armor and tiered guns to compete with avatars that have been skilling and spending for years.
The problem is that this strategy does not attract long term Entropians.
Lets face it PVP is probably what attracts the most players into most games out there. The problem MA seems to not want to recognize is that EU is NOT like most games out there and the long term player in EU is not your average gamer from COD and company. So the question is : why keep on implementing features that cater to that market?

In short why is space lootable PVP?

Answer for existing player base and PP : To protect each planets economy and player base.As JC said as well as to justify a higher price tags for MS and Hangar owners as Xen said.

Answer for MA's objectives: hopefully open a new game play to attract shitloads of new players.

That's my opinion based on what we've seen so far, almost a year after space has been implemented. Future developments will hopefully shed more light on the direction this is all heading.