Vehicle driving decay nerf.

TheOneOmega said:

I think it's far more complicated than that (at least for many people). It's about what's good for the community as a whole, versus what's good for the individuals in the community. The pattern to which many object is the one where, time after time, MindArk implements changes that may have an overall positive effect on the game, but often do a great deal of harm to a significant subset of the player base. Everyone will end up in one of these harmed subsets if they stick around in EU; long-term players will get stuck in them time after time.

The question I believe folks are trying to raise is whether the positive effects of such major structural game play changes are worth being hit with the wrecking ball every X times it swings around.

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Yes i agree but how do you make changes if your not allowed to make changes because it affects people?

It they made all new vehicles with this "feature" the problem would be we need 25k more players before we notice any difference from the change, we cant postpone changes and hard decisions onto times "when we get a massive influx of new players" all the time.

But yes the frustration is there, but im optimistic.

OberonNightSeer said:

Is decay for broom 1PEC per use? Or is it based on amount of use? I spawned a broom and then picked it up, 1PEC decay. That's 100 or so uses for a broom now?

-Obie-

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Rode broom several more times, still at 1PEC decay, so decay must be based on amount of use. Still sucks.


-Obie-

P.S. Worst x-mas tree EVER in Twins, LOL

ermik said:

Yes i agree but how do you make changes if your not allowed to make changes because it affects people?

It they made all new vehicles with this "feature" the problem would be we need 25k more players before we notice any difference from the change, we cant postpone changes and hard decisions onto times "when we get a massive influx of new players" all the time.

But yes the frustration is there, but im optimistic.

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Yeah, I wouldn't suggest applying the decay rule to only new vehicles as a solution to this particular problem. I'm not sure what a better solution would have been. "Do nothing" is always a safe one, but I don't know every reason the change was implemented, so it's hard to say.

MindArk shouldn't refrain from making changes altogether, but I do think the way they've been optimizing for game mechanic balance at the expense of the individuals is taking its toll. I guess one can only adapt to these changes so many times before the headaches start to set in. As you mention, the only way we can help is to stay optimistic.

ermik said:

Yes i agree but how do you make changes if your not allowed to make changes because it affects people?

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If they would give all weapons and faps same base eco, let's say 4.2 for weapons and 9.0 for faps (including imk2 and mod fap), how many people would that affect negatively and positively? And why haven't they done that change already then? After all, they did equalize armors to (roughly) the same decay a couple of years ago.

ermik said:

It they made all new vehicles with this "feature" the problem would be we need 25k more players before we notice any difference from the change, we cant postpone changes and hard decisions onto times "when we get a massive influx of new players" all the time.

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Well, see above. And I can't see how brooms affects the general economy (you can't attach weapons to them, and you can't attach thruster to it and unless there is some special trick I don't know about you can't use them in pvp4), and at time most of them were sold there wasn't any crafted/looted ones in market (and at the time the change went through) there still isn't. And they were availible first-hand only to selected people on a specific day (which made the market value relatively high).

And as for the change on the nanochips: When they're used they would decay, so if used they would decay at a proportional rate.

aia said:

If they would give all weapons and faps same base eco, let's say 4.2 for weapons and 9.0 for faps (including imk2 and mod fap), how many people would that affect negatively and positively? And why haven't they done that change already then? After all, they did equalize armors to (roughly) the same decay a couple of years ago.



Well, see above. And I can't see how brooms affects the general economy (you can't attach weapons to them, and you can't attach thruster to it and unless there is some special trick I don't know about you can't use them in pvp4), and at time most of them were sold there wasn't any crafted/looted ones in market (and at the time the change went through) there still isn't. And they were availible first-hand only to selected people on a specific day (which made the market value relatively high).

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Probably they wanted to add the decay to a small numbers of free items first to try out the new system, thus adding it to brooms among a few other vehicles.

If you compare making L items actually L with making all tools inside eu the same eco wise i cant see how there could even remotely exist grounds for further discussion.

tbh, i got fed up with all the pec nibbling

the last fun example of the pec/ped nibbling is the clothing/armor equip decay and for clothing the "has to be at full tt to look good" thingie


effectively those two hit the especially the tailoring profession, which is now a shadow of what it used to be
which in turn, lowered markup of many of the former skilling resources (e.g. animal hide)

the decay had no use, the full tt is as well


now another pec nibbling comes along
funny thing is, that MA KNEW and KNOWS since about 2 or 3 years now, basically since the gateway existed, that the people create douzens of avatars to farm the free stuff
then fairly recently they add vehicles
and now, all of a sudden, its really necessary to have all those decay?
why give them out in the first place, fully knowing what would happen?
(the answer may simple be the fact, that the gateway cars are sold for some funky markup, thus creating deposits for MA, so the multiple ava creation for free stuff prolly wont bother them that much)
its a tad ironic that this is partially used as excuse now (what was the excuse for the clothing and armor equip fee again, aaah, right, it counters the lag from equipping it!)

and that it helps the economy? seriously?
i doubt it
basically to really help the economy, you have to increase sales

that can or could be done with L items which decay
in case of vehicles, since most people are fairly careful when driving around, the decay from driving into mobs and getting hit seems to be fairly low
so you have to, ofc. implenent driving around decay
problem here is simple, how much will it be?

add 0.001 pec per KM driven? (its fun that EU is the only game afaik which calculates decay to the milipec, thus i use it it extreme)
thats prolly not enough to really encourage more buys of stuff, since the decay is way to low

now if you have much more decay, you will end up thinking twice about buying a new vehicle or using it
this wont increase the sales much more either

in either case, it could give the vehicle market a hit and not necessarily a boost


just to throw it in the room, there is another method to increase sales, beside making the people buy their stuff twice and more often
increase the people buying stuff, e.g. new players

and you wont get new players necessarily by taxing the people more and more
you may not even keep the ones you have
just saying

ermik said:

Probably they wanted to add the decay to a small numbers of free items first to try out the new system, thus adding it to brooms among a few other vehicles.

If you compare making L items actually L with making all tools inside eu the same eco wise i cant see how there could even remotely exist grounds for further discussion.

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When the brooms were sold, the market price was set by the fact we knew how (L) vehicles generally decay: By being used in pvp. And noone complained when cars were sold as "if you don't let yourself get hit by mobs it will last forever" back when they were introduced.

Changing stats of uberitems wouldn't take away their repairable status - you would still be able to use them, repair them, and use them again. But the cost of usage would be comparable with items looted and crafted and people using imk2's and modfaps would consider skilling up for today's "impossible" faps to get even better heals without paying "more".

(Yes, I know, nerfiing imk2 and modfaps would be a bad idea. But this is just a comparison to nerfing (L) that lesser wealthy players have.)

Doing this as a "test" on items that are (L) and was handed out at a single occasion to a limited number of people (again of which I wasn't one - I paid market value for mine) doesn't feel like a smart idea.

Alice said:

that can or could be done with L items which decay
in case of vehicles, since most people are fairly careful when driving around, the decay from driving into mobs and getting hit seems to be fairly low
so you have to, ofc. implenent driving around decay
problem here is simple, how much will it be?

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I do decay my vehicles (those vehicles bought at a more normal markup - and knowing I can get new ones). For instance my quadwing has half it's TT. To a small degree unvoluntary (getting shot down by pirates) - but also volunatary since I know I can get a new one (space hunting and pvp events). My textured hoverpod mk3 lost half its TT when I got phone, "parked" and three smallish atrox chewed on it for 10 minutes or so (doing 1 dmg/hit). I was angry for a week then I saw there were new hoverpods for about the same price I paid for the first one (100 ped).

My cars (valk and truck) has been hit alot by mobs.

(L) clothes suck lol. The clothes that were handed out as (L) at 10 pec value at arctic I saved as-is. I did missions there without clothes to be able to keep them lol. One dumb thing with (L) clohtes is that they, unlike (L) armor, reduce their efficiency ie their looks so if you use them once they will never look fresh next time you put them on.

aia said:

(Yes, I know, nerfiing imk2 and modfaps would be a bad idea. But this is just a comparison to nerfing (L) that lesser wealthy players have.)

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It would because it would take out the trust in EU from lots and lots of people.

The change in decay for using free vehicles might be considered necessary for balancing purposes

but that would be the same argument for balancing Mod FAP and Imp Mk2


The broom shouldn't had be put into this new nerf

Not this way,

I would set a new kind of requirement that made Vibrant Sweat indispensable so that the TT wasn't affected by use.

Free and gift vehicles would of course be subject to a higher consumption of this product,

and to make even more balanced

in the case that the vehicle wasn't really used ,just spawned the consumption would have a minimum base rate.

Failure to provide that requirement would of course be translated in a small decrease of TT.



This would help newcommers by having another market

more stable

(Just requiring that the costs become more in line with TP chips)

so that people who wish to join and test the game could do it without having to deposit right away or spending countless hours in brainless activities which are currently of little purpose

and that this nerf hasn't solved.

-Archangel- said:

I would set a new kind of requirement that made Vibrant Sweat indispensable so that the TT wasn't affected by use.

Free and gift vehicles would of course be subject to a higher consumption of this product,

and to make even more balanced

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There is one difference:
The TT in sweat, practically, probably is eaten by refiner. A sweater can't get rich by sweating and TT:ing (unless he's using some bug that makes him able to sweat afk forever).

Another thing is that brooms was a one-time handout to a limited number of players (those of us who joined game before Rocktropia was introduced, for instance, had no chance at all to get one "free" at least those of us with just one avatar - for us it wasn't a "free" item for sure). Vehicles given out to beginners at missions "anyone" can get by doing the missions, without having to buy it (possibly with the additional cost of needing to visit another planet).

And, well, there are truly unlimited (repairable) vehicles indirectly given out from missions (through tokens). (Though it's unlikely a normal player will get one of those within the nearest years just from doing missions.) And the motherships and quadwings handed out when space was launched aren't (L).

About time I heard sometime good of this update vehicle should decay faster yes .
should decay after you hop in n drive

I can make more hovers now.

OberonNightSeer said:

Rode broom several more times, still at 1PEC decay, so decay must be based on amount of use. Still sucks.


-Obie-

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You need to do decay test. A 0.001 - 0.999 pec decay on an otherwise full tt item shows up as 1 pec in the interface, as it shows only full pecs.

As long as MA are allowed to alter STATS of small and big items in game so long after they have been introduced, small or big scal investing in EU is only for fools (Lucky or otherwise) and insiders (YES there are).

You dont fuck with your customers the way they are fucking with you guys.....

As a pirate you knew what you get when you encountered us. This nerfing crap however, is like flying with a soc mate who knows you got stuff to loose, when suddenly he tuns on you, shoots and loots you, then expects things to be ok still......how many times will you let that happen ? Right and how many times can MA do that to you ? Right ^^.



Laters

DCF

ermik said:

Yes i agree but how do you make changes if your not allowed to make changes because it affects people?

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It looks like you missed my proposed way of doing such changes which would make all sides happy or at least not unhappy:

Aandar said:

The proper way if you really need to fix the vehicle crafting market which you broke by allowing planet owners to flood the market with free vehicles:

Leave all the already owned/purchased/traded units intact.
Stop giving them out for free to every new avatar (completely not caring about 100s of avatars made just for freebie vehicles).
Make new decaying versions.
Start giving out these new decaying versions.

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All already owned property should be totally untouchable and unchangeable.
It should be like a holy unbreakable commandment they need to hang on every wall in their offices to not to forget about this rule.

You also don't understand that what makes people deposit USD and buy things is their TRUST that these things will keep to have exactly the same stats they had at the moment of the purchase.

Without that trust there would be no deposits and no Entropia Universe, so every time they break that trust a little bit, they also destroy the game a little bit which obviously is not good for the community of players.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I loved my red car

I think that some vehicle should indeed break faster as I can virtually use my sleipnir etc forever ... and we know what happens to companies who sell things which never break.

I loved my (bought) broom ...

A solution would have been to increase the TT on the broom (with 1x repair) so that at least we could enjoy the limited broom for a bit longer.

Atami

aia said:

I do decay my vehicles (those vehicles bought at a more normal markup - and knowing I can get new ones). For instance my quadwing has half it's TT. To a small degree unvoluntary (getting shot down by pirates) - but also volunatary since I know I can get a new one (space hunting and pvp events). My textured hoverpod mk3 lost half its TT when I got phone, "parked" and three smallish atrox chewed on it for 10 minutes or so (doing 1 dmg/hit). I was angry for a week then I saw there were new hoverpods for about the same price I paid for the first one (100 ped).

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sure, but in that case the vehicle more or less is your armor for hunting
so this would be more a debate of using L armor or not

my point was about the "everyday" driving around
the decay of that should be fairly low and not necessarily such a great source for new vehicle sales

to take your atrox example
ofc it is fairly easy to get a new vehicle, but id say most people try to avoid paying 100 peds (10$; usually more i guess) regularly for a vehicle
that its easy, no question
that it can become pretty expensive, likely
that this could actually be more troublesome than no decay, possible

let me get back to my clothes example
say you have to fully repair all your clothes
the effect was basically that many, maybe most, people sold quite some of their clothes and kept just a fraction of those they had
most of those who did that didnt buy any more clothes, or if, sold others

now to bring that to vehicles

currently you have a pretty broad varity in vehicle/person
i am myself one of those nutters who own quite a couple of different ones
off the top of my had, a valk, a pitbull, sleip, quad, hover, helicopter. i prolly missed some
now say you introduce vehicle decay on driving/using it will have, pretty likely, this effects:
1. people know their vehicle will break over time, way faster than they do atm, thus calculate their cost for future vehicle buys which will effectively lead to less vehicle buys of other classes
2. people will analyse the actual most eco vehicle, based on fuel and driving decay, a few favourite vehicles will effectively be the top sellers, the rest wont be bought as much anymore
3. based on that, 2 options, either the best vehicle has a low tt, meaning the total turnover wont be that big, ped wise, or the tt of the vehicle is pretty high (pitbull) and the amount of sold vehicles will be fairly slow

so it could, actually, lower the vehicle demand
which in turn will lower the markup of the needed resources, skill price, yadayadayada
as i said, its a could and i am prolly one of the biggest nutters when it comes to eco (once there was a kind of vote for my favourite sentence by my disciples and it was "that is uneco")

completely from another point of view, some people will get eventually fed up with the pec nibbling, i know i did
because sooooooooo many things were cheaper in the past and just nerfed/made worse/made nonsense/made impractical
and yes, its mostly a minor pec payment/cost and wont matter (much) in the total deposits
but its there and its a nuisance
example, clothes decay i already mentioned
but there were a couple of fun parts too, which happened amazingly coincidentially around (or even at?) the same time
suddenly, when clothes started to decay as well as armors on equipping, suddenly a helmet from your armor took your hat and your shades of, it didnt do it before
even funnier is that the newly introduced foot guards took your shoes off (barefoot in footguards, eh?)
ofc taking either on again costs decay
no, not much, but it does (again, im one of the nutters who doesnt wear shoes since, actually i sold kinda all my footwear, worth around 300-500 ped, if thats a positive thing for the game is debateable)

and now basically the same thing is done with vehicles
that could seriously backfire, for the crafters, thus the miners and in the end the vehicle users

imo its just not useful to tax the existing players more and more, even if its just pec nibbling
so i dont see the "its gonna be great for the economy" parts really, sry

mai isma apari said:

I can make more hovers now.

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And if more and more people are fed up and sell out you can use all yourself

mai isma apari said:

About time I heard sometime good of this update vehicle should decay faster yes .
should decay after you hop in n drive

I can make more hovers now.

Click to expand...

Not for me.. I will be running.

AtamiKiangola said:

I think that some vehicle should indeed break faster as I can virtually use my sleipnir etc forever ... and we know what happens to companies who sell things which never break

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Well it consumes oil while flying and if hitting buildings and such you need to repair it (with welding wire and repair tool). If you with "companies" mean the people who sold brooms at auction, I guess they're happy with the money they got by now, and don't really care if they break or not as probably most of them have sold what htey got and naturally can't "make" new ones (kind'a late by now to create more alts).

OberonNightSeer said:

Rode broom several more times, still at 1PEC decay, so decay must be based on amount of use. Still sucks.


-Obie-

P.S. Worst x-mas tree EVER in Twins, LOL

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I would bet it decayed 0.00001 which made the abbreviated display look like it decayed 1 pec.

If someone has one and a shopkeeper its super easy to test just toss in there and you will see the exact TT

Not sure what to think really, i mean MA get fuel use out of vehicles and rather than decay this way for freebies why not make uneco - just increase fuel cost for them.

Anyway whats done is done, i do feel for those who paid so much for brooms though. Also is a great shame that they will be gone from game after all decayed - a great fun item from rt.

Don't panic so fast, Brooms don't seem to decay very fast. Maybe the decay rate is linked to the max TT of the vehicle.

really dont matter how slow it is, it will eventually poof, and one of the coolest things to enter the world in a long time, will be gone forever.

I think they should make a BP to create brooms and any other one off vehicles that will die with this change.

Kitten said:

I would bet it decayed 0.00001 which made the abbreviated display look like it decayed 1 pec.

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A bit unscientifically: From Fort Victoria to top of Mount Hephastos, a distance of roughly 9.5 km, it decayed about 6 PEC (from 0.98 to 0.92).

A test I did along the way showed that it approximately decayed 1 pec for each 3 PEC of oil used (just by seeing the integer numbers) ie from 0.95 to 0.90 in TT and 0.22 to 0.08 in PED of oil (5 pec decay for 14 pec oil consumption).

My numbers aren't exact, just a hint. But I'd say decay isn't negliable.

DaisyColdFinger said:

As long as MA are allowed to alter STATS of small and big items in game so long after they have been introduced, small or big scal investing in EU is only for fools (Lucky or otherwise) and insiders (YES there are).

You dont fuck with your customers the way they are fucking with you guys.....

As a pirate you knew what you get when you encountered us. This nerfing crap however, is like flying with a soc mate who knows you got stuff to loose, when suddenly he tuns on you, shoots and loots you, then expects things to be ok still......how many times will you let that happen ? Right and how many times can MA do that to you ? Right ^^.



Laters

DCF

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Mabe your right, mabe it is time to leave, just tired of geting nickeled and dimed to death by this company, just tired

MA, NDS, Whomsoever,

This is how I feel about what happened to the Brooms...

Please put on 3D Anaglyph glasses (red on the left - blue/green on the right)



Sincerely,
Szilard Skeezer Aszkenaze

Ugh, that change really left a bad taste in my mouth. It is non-negligible decay and feels like such a dick move after I saw so many people buying brooms and such that now will be invariably decay to uselessness instead of keeping their novelty value. And I'm sure all regular (L) vehicles will be following after, it's going to be really fun to fly between planets on a Quad/VTOL now, when you'll be decaying for 30-45 minutes of uninterrupted flight. It's not really our fault MA didn't realize in time how much vehicles were comparatively cheap to use, just to introduce something like this now.

All I have to say is I liked my Arctic Heli

ermik said:

A major part of items used must have a lifecycle for the economy model to work.

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You must be really blind after all I read from you in this thread.
But in summary,

There is no economy, just mind-dark manipulations, since years.
"RCE" is just a lie, or just bla bla bla words for ignorant people.
And we all know that MA use tons of words meaning nothing.

-

Many good points in Alice post

Alice said:

now another pec nibbling comes along...

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Alice said:

its fun that EU is the only game afaik which calculates decay to the milipec

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Now even ammos in loots are under 1pec in milli ammos,
and if you did not notice it, since the last VU, there is no separated stacks of ammos in inv,
clearly made to make sure we do not have control in the ammos numbers used,
so a good way to steal us even more.

In case of prejudice,
or mind-dark will pretend they see nothing "odd" in their logs (the usual copy/paste lie).
Or will pretend that was lag (the gold mine excuse since years), so not their side and close your ticket.
Or simply tell you that their policy do not refund you, and you'll be fucked up anyway.

James Clayton said:

Consider yourself lucky your under Swedish law MA, here in Canada you would never get away with a stunt like this.

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And you can be sure they know it.
Sweden is certainly the only country in the world which is closing the eyes.
Sweden belongs to Europe ? Hard to believe.

Long time in my country that mind-dark would have disappeared from the world game market.
And their makers put in the "house" where they should be since years.
Because we have laws to protect people from thieves.

I can't believe that the international medias never show the real mind-dark face.
EU 110 voters on 1+ million accounts... I would not be proud 0.01 %

Typical MA

This game is starting to sound and taste more and more like a scam...Weird that MA is willing to mistreat its players like this...Changing the rules of usage after they put it out and people bought it...I guess my days of buying new Vehicles and spending 100s of peds putting textures on them is over...And i BET im not the only 1 who wont be doing that no more..So where is the gain in this? I got my UL Sleipnir and it will last me for as long as im in the game and more...Your starting to look more and more like desperate scammers MA