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Latest big mining ATHs undeserved?

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Moonbiter

Moonbiter

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Apr 10, 2006
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Vilnius, Lithuania
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Luke Moonbiter Sinclair
Well, first of all i want to state my intention of posting this thread. I'm not whining, and it's nothing personal against ATH'ers themselves (i don't even know them ingame), but it's to get a view from other miners on this matter, especially active ones.

Ok, so let's begin.

1) 2008-06-10, 76k Lyst on cnd unamped by TCS Matty AA. Fairly unknown miner, or to be exact nobody has heard about him before his ATH. Even to this day, ET has only 7 mining globals (including his ath) registered from him, since april 28th and to this day.

2) 2008-07-02, 40k Narc on cnd + 10k tower the day before by The Gypsy Princess. Avatar younger than 1.5 years (some attributes readed @1 when i scanned her), intelligence 44 (good indication to judge about overall activity in mining). At the time of hiting those, wasn't on ET's miner top100 if i'm not mistaken. Too bad ET doesn't allow to check further back in history atm, so can only rely on my memory.




3) 2008-06-23, 120k Zinc by Sponzorusa Svaba Qrava. z20+oa103 from what i know. Avatar has similar (read low) experience in mining as gypsy, intelligence being at 45. For this case i remember for sure, she wasn't on ET's miners top100, and had a few globals before hiting ath.




[4th example removed due to being inaccurate, seems this one really went to dedicated miner.]

Ok, so these are the latest cases from what i could remember during the last few months. I think all of them show that big finds (or should i say super big, 3 of them are in all time high top7) go to inexperienced and/or inactive miners. Now again, there's nothing personal against those ATH'ers, gratz to them on their big finds. But i question the system, which generates such finds, is it logical? Shouln't efforts and big turnovers be rewareded, instead of noobiness? If MA really gets their profit from decay, so how come the biggest earners aren't rewarded? Of course i understand that new avatars should get lucky, no one questions that, but when 90% of the big finds go to new players, there's definetely something wrong.

So, what do you think about all this?
 
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:scratch2::scratch2::scratch2:

Ok i understand the part that it feels so wrong. For example, my socmate hunts drones, nothing but drones. He is second in the entropiatracker on drones in amount of globals. And he never got a hof bigger then 1k if im sure. While all the people with the big loots only did a few drones.

Same things with a lot of other mobs, the most global people are not in the top high loots or top value.

But thats the game, nothing to do about it. But it feels so wrong to put all the time and effort in a mob or on a profession while some lost avatar shoots a mob by accident and get that bigass hof.
 
you could tell an ATH was coming though - mining was absolute crap the last week or so...

I'm just suprised it wasnt bigger
 
Ugh, this is the ugly side of entropiatracker. It's recorded far less than half of the globals I've gotten since I play at odd hours and I imagine it's the same for lots of people. But if you don't have a good "tracker score" you'll get trashed on the forums if you ever get anything by the people who feel they deserve what you've gotten and you don't. Seriously, do you walk around casinos telling off everyone that hits on a slot machine?

Yes I read your disclaimer, but saying "it's nothing personal" then going on to personally call out individuals that you feel don't deserve what they got and explaining why each one of them doesn't deserve it sure looks personal to me.
 
Moonbiter said:
60k Cald by Erling Emissary of Janus Dalarna. Don't have any information about this avatar skills or tools used (too recent), but ET profile has 20 mining globals registered from him/her during the period from may 01 to august 15th. Same situation with hunting globals, and no crafting globals at all. So i can only conclude that this is not an active avatar, at least not now anyway.
Click to expand...

I took 5 weeks off for summer holiday :)
 
Karmic said:
Ugh, this is the ugly side of entropiatracker. It's recorded far less than half of the globals I've gotten since I play at odd hours and I imagine it's the same for lots of people. But if you don't have a good "tracker score" you'll get trashed on the forums if you ever get anything by the people who feel they deserve what you've gotten and you don't. Seriously, do you walk around casinos telling off everyone that hits on a slot machine?

Yes I read your disclaimer, but saying "it's nothing personal" then going on to personally call out individuals that you feel don't deserve what they got and explaining why each one of them doesn't deserve it sure looks personal to me.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to outline what's wrong with the system in general and had to use some real examples. And even if you're right about ET missing 50% of globals, it's still valid.

And the problem is that efforts, which in EU can be time and money spent, aren't rewareded. And if that is the case, what's the point in investing your time and money when you know you won't get anything in return and that anyone else has just as big chance as you (or bigger?).

Janus said:
I took 5 weeks off for summer holiday :)
Click to expand...

Point taken, probably shouldn't have used your ATH as an example having so little info. And of course gratz on your ATH :yay:
 
cant really say undeserved,

everyone drops the same bombs.
 
Karmic said:
Ugh, this is the ugly side of entropiatracker. It's recorded far less than half of the globals I've gotten since I play at odd hours and I imagine it's the same for lots of people. But if you don't have a good "tracker score" you'll get trashed on the forums if you ever get anything by the people who feel they deserve what you've gotten and you don't. Seriously, do you walk around casinos telling off everyone that hits on a slot machine?

Yes I read your disclaimer, but saying "it's nothing personal" then going on to personally call out individuals that you feel don't deserve what they got and explaining why each one of them doesn't deserve it sure looks personal to me.
Click to expand...
Yes, ET is far from accurate so I wouldn't put too much weight on it.
 
E.K.x said:
cant really say undeserved,

everyone drops the same bombs.
Click to expand...

Of course bombs are the same. But using what finders/amps (some of which are very expensive), droping how much of them each day and for how long?

Or that shouldn't matter at all in your oppinion?

Tosi said:
Yes, ET is far from accurate so I wouldn't put too much weight on it.
Click to expand...

Yes, i understand that. However even being inaccurate, it still shows a big picture. And i wasn't relying only on ET data.
 
There's nothing wrong with the system. There would be something seriously wrong with the system if there was code in place that said, hey, you can't get anything good unless you've put 4 years into the game. Or, you can't get an ATH unless ruskea decides you're worthy. I'm sorry, but the sum total of bombs dropped by all the unworthy is just flat out more than any single person. To say none of them deserve it and only the elite deserve any returns would end the game for most everyone. I actually like reading the Hall of Fame section, but it's posts like these, and people going into that section to tell posters that they don't deserve the loot they got that makes me hesitate any time I post in it.

So reversing it on you, what's the point of anyone who isn't an uber playing if the system were corrected to the way you want it, and they know that they'll never get anything because there will always be someone more "deserving".

Finally, ATH's are luck, pure and simple, profiting over time is not luck. Would you consider someone who puts a lot of time in the game but doesn't use amps, doesn't hunt high hp mobs and doesn't register a lot on entropiatracker part of your "deserving" elite if they were able to do well? If they were to get lucky and ATH would you post that they are unworthy? or did you already do that?
 
Moonbiter said:
Well, first of all i want to state my intention of posting this thread. I'm not whining, and it's nothing personal against ATH'ers themselves (i don't even know them ingame), but it's to get a view from other miners on this matter, especially active ones.


So, what do you think about all this?
Click to expand...

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.
Click to expand...

In Entropia, the times are always a-changing.

With all respect to Mr. Dylan
 
Karmic said:
There's nothing wrong with the system. There would be something seriously wrong with the system if there was code in place that said, hey, you can't get anything good unless you've put 4 years into the game. Or, you can't get an ATH unless ruskea decides you're worthy. I'm sorry, but the sum total of bombs dropped by all the unworthy is just flat out more than any single person. To say none of them deserve it and only the elite deserve any returns would end the game for most everyone. I actually like reading the Hall of Fame section, but it's posts like these, and people going into that section to tell posters that they don't deserve the loot they got that makes me hesitate any time I post in it.

So reversing it on you, what's the point of anyone who isn't an uber playing if the system were corrected to the way you want it, and they know that they'll never get anything because there will always be someone more "deserving".

Finally, ATH's are luck, pure and simple, profiting over time is not luck. Would you consider someone who puts a lot of time in the game but doesn't use amps, doesn't hunt high hp mobs and doesn't register a lot on entropiatracker part of your "deserving" elite if they were able to do well? If they were to get lucky and ATH would you post that they are unworthy? or did you already do that?
Click to expand...

Well, first of all i want to clear up some things. I'm no uber myself, and will never be most likely. I'm just doing what i can on my part, and investing as much time and money as i can. I'm not even very old player, about 2 and half years in EU.

And i never ment that it's only ubers or the biggest spenders who deserve big loots. I'm simply questioning the system in terms of balance. Of course everyone must have their chance to hit the big one. However, especially in mining there's a problem with balance. For example, in hunting new player, even after a deposit, just can't go hunt spiders or daspletors. While in mining, even a new player can hit it big, Imho invested time/money should matter for something, not everything.

And yes, i would consider a person who puts alot of time in EU to be deserving, i was always sayint it's time+money, not only money, otherwise it would really make no sense. And to my knowledge i haven't insulted anyone on their ATH/hof thread.
 
i have hof 2 hour later deposit ped

i think we have some variable left to complete the chart. -issue we cant scanner it is the deposit we do,
not only skills work on this as you waste your peds u get some back .. as you spend on auction, on repair, on deposit it (hof globals loot )come faster and faster
i think so
many times just wanted to ask gypsy on CND ( the hof nest for mining) but i had shy, she play many hours as i can see her on CND Control room and i bet she deposit before that great hof..
:confused:
 
Hi Moonbiter,

You know me from old on CND. I'm 100% behind you in saying the system is wrong somewhere. I have had 6 towers (and before I get flamed), I have bought and paid for every one of them over and over (before I actually got them)!!

So yes, it is wrong somewhere that those that dont pay a fraction of the cost towards these big hits, actually get them.

We will all have different veiws on this, but I would just like to say gratz to those who found these nice claims (we all would like them), .

What I'd like to know is... How does anyone know that an "Immense XXVII" actually exists :cool: and if so wheres mine.... :laugh:

Regards
Jack Scudd Samuels
 
On a side note, how is 45 intel low? Ive been here 1.5 years almost. Got to lv 17 parmedic, 18 prospecting, 11 survey and done my share of clicks at the crafting machines yet I still have only 46 intel. Intel gains are so slow now that harrassing someone based on intel in the 40s is like saying nobody before the skill nerfs should beable to ATH.
 
I heard of Matty before his ATH......

And I look at it this way....
We are all peeing into the same pot, regardless of skills that pot is going to overflow and spill all over somebody sooner or later. Just depends on when you decide to to answer nature's call.
 
Moonbiter said:
....
but it's to get a view from other miners on this matter, especially active ones.
Click to expand...

It seems to me you have a very particular view of what constitutes an active player.

Moonbiter said:
1) .....nobody has heard about him before his ATH. Even to this day, ET has only 7 mining globals (including his ath) registered from him, since april 28th and to this day.

2) ......At the time of hiting those, wasn't on ET's miner top100 if i'm not mistaken. Too bad ET doesn't allow to check further back in history atm, so can only rely on my memory.


3) .....For this case i remember for sure, she wasn't on ET's miners top100, and had a few globals before hiting ath.
Click to expand...

Global spam is certainly one indicator that an ava is active, but what Entropia Tracker doesn't tell you, is that there are many active players who put as much time and effort into their activities, but unfortunately don't get globals.

I would expect that some of them may be rewarded at some point with a very large find. I would also expect that, unlikely as it may sound, some player could hit an uber hof with their very first bomb. I do not find these things strange.

I do find it strange that somebody thinks having more globals makes a person somehow "more deserving" of a big find.


Moonbiter said:
..... but when 90% of the big finds go to new players, there's definetely something wrong.

So, what do you think about all this?
Click to expand...

I think your made-up statistic is completely fallacious. Now if you will excuse me, I need to go unlock "Deserve" skill.
 
If a person can get the ATH they obviously deserve it.
People should stop hating on new players.
 
let me refresh your memories to Leloo Leelo Mountains giant 182k mining ath ,, deserved ?
who can say ,, do the big ones pop sometimes ? why yes indeed they do :)

keep on mining kids ,, it could be you next :)
 
Not sure how you draw the conclusion to any of these being undeserved ?

Personally I feel they are all more than deserved and grats each and every one of them :)

You tend to forget a little something about EU.

It was never designed to be a one sphere of activity system to maximise returns. Losses in one sphere are generally always returned in another sphere when active within it for only a short while :)

On top of this and as stated you do not know any of these people, nor do you know how much they have despoitted or burnt in decay, even on such things as scanning 1k ped a day for 3 months is 90k ped of which a good 85% plus of that will come back in one way or another :)

Just one example.

Sparkz

PS. By short I mean a couple of days to a couple of weeks.
 
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Fill me in more Moonbiter ?

I know from reading the initial thread post, this is not your style ?
Not sure if your querying other peoples views if they are deserved or not,
Or if your thinking along those lines ?

You got me confused mate ;) :scratch2:

Sparkz
 
Shadowsong said:
It seems to me you have a very particular view of what constitutes an active player.



Global spam is certainly one indicator that an ava is active, but what Entropia Tracker doesn't tell you, is that there are many active players who put as much time and effort into their activities, but unfortunately don't get globals.

I would expect that some of them may be rewarded at some point with a very large find. I would also expect that, unlikely as it may sound, some player could hit an uber hof with their very first bomb. I do not find these things strange.

I do find it strange that somebody thinks having more globals makes a person somehow "more deserving" of a big find.


I think your made-up statistic is completely fallacious. Now if you will excuse me, I need to go unlock "Deserve" skill.
Click to expand...

Well, being an INTP type of person, i like to analyze systems. And as every analytic who deals with indirect signals of system, i have to rely on some kind of tools. It's like doctor who has to set diagnosis relying on some kind of indicators that our body is sending, and can't just cut open his patient to see what exactly is wrong. Since i don't have a source code, nor total data stream, i have to use tools like ET and other data available to me.

Mining is basically an input/output system of a kind, and we in globals see a part of output. I don't have data on exact input, but i can judge about that by analyzing globals. Intellinge attribute is another indicator how much input any given person has put into system. So i have partial data about input, and partial data about output, and trying to make some conclusions ouf of it.

And yes, there's nothing wrong with person who gets a large find after a long period of loss, that's is very logical in fact. I can say that my case is just like that, when i got my first uber in hunting (1.3k feffo) after 1.5 years of playing. Or that 4th example that i at first used, but removed it after i saw that i was wrong and it fits this category of large find after years of nothing.

However, there is no logic in hiting uber with first bomb. (Or worse even, big uber or ATH.) Of course there is some kind of mechanism in the black box that stand between input and output that triggers such things. However user of system is left with a question about logic of such results.

Oh yeah, and about that 90% figure, i admit it was taken out of thin air and shouldn't have used it. But what's done is done..

Warpath said:
Yup and I think anyone who gets one deserves it.
Click to expand...

kyleen said:
If a person can get the ATH they obviously deserve it.
People should stop hating on new players.
Click to expand...

I don't hate new players or people who ATH. I just question system that makes such things possible.

And probably term "deserve" is not adequate. We're after all dealing with emotionless mathematical system here, which doesn't divide users into good/bad or deserving (morally) or not. It's more of a deserving mathematically what i ment. (Can't think of a right word right now).
 
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Compusmurf said:
Moonbiter, no disrespect, but using your theory, you shouldn't have this

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/uberloots/86137-10k-feffoid.html

I've quite possibly been in game longer than you and I haven't gotten 10k anything, so you shouldn't have this and I should.

Now, Hand it over.

:)

:sniper:
Click to expand...

Well, as i have mentioned in my another post, before hiting my first hunting uber, and shortly after that 10k that you mention, i haven't had anything like that for 1.5 years of pretty active hunting/mining. Best loots being ~400 cald and some team hofs under 1k. Wasn't really keeping extensive notes on my expenses/returns back then, but i can say that cummulative losses were probably bigger than that, and that period included some pretty intensive hunting on CP too, and everyone knows how ped-draining that can be. So i fit under category of large hit after long period of silence with this.

And i'm really sad to see that long term players like you haven't had their share of big hits yet. That was one of the reason why i have created this thread in the first place, cause i know much more examples than that. But i guess Thoreau said it best with his poem. And 4th case which i removed also gave me hope, so maybe we just shouldn't loose faith and keep grinding on :)
 
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