Info: Another "perception while mining" theory

[aridash]

i always find perc gain theories interesting and comical at the same time. people take them so seriously so there must be somthing, but then some of the claims seem too wooly or unsubstantiated to be credible.

theres a few major problems. first, why does a skill gained in hunting effect mining or vice versa? secondly, why does a skill gained in scanning show anything in either? thirdly, why is the qualification that perc leads to something "bigger" or "better". than what? if i get a 70 pec rather than 50 pec loot is that what the perc gain indicated? forthly, how does it differ much from random anyway, as a hunter i have ~3500 lvls which means a hell of alot more actual perc skill green lines have gone past, i cant say ive had that many "better" loots. fifth, why is perception the special skill that holds this message, why not any other, in particular serendipity?

having said that i like this theory, because its simple and falsifiable. simply go to a coast and always face the sea when mining. if you get a perception, the theory is false as i cant get a claim at sea. dont try to suggest that the claims are there, why would the system put it there or tell me about it if i cant possibly get it?

 

[Norbert]

A good theory Taz, along with data that you have taken time to show. + rep

However i think that perception gains can mean other things to which can throw you off, avatar on edge of radar, a mob loot in area, or a find on other type of mining. Intelligence gains i tend to get often on boundaries where find composition changes, but also i have had intelligence gains in places where i have gridded and hoffed (and not lol).
To sum up i strongly believe there is something to perception gain. I have definitely seen gains as GD's have come onto radar few minutes later, i have also found things bigger than normal in area after a perc gain, and these have been to aften to be considered "chance".

The problems are though that we as humans tend to look for patterns in things, and if there are (as i suspect) multiple triggers to perc gains any theory would be difficult to prove. By this i mean GD'son edge of radar, maybe a different find type to one you are mining, and i also suspect that sometimes a skillgain is just a skill gain and nothing significant.

Thankyou Taz for at least sharing your experimentation with the community, for without the many different theories etc posted we would have a much lesser understanding overall of things in EU. Sure some are wrong, some correct, but that is up to the players to test-refine- and disprove/prove with their own gameplay.

Just as a sidenote i helped fap a rather acomplished hunter, and what Taz is saying about Perc being directional is basically what they explained to me. They would say in team about a perc gain, and kill everything on that directional facing.

Have fun


.

 

[aridash]

another experiment. go mining with a friend of similar skills, very similar perception. one mines, the other isnt. once a perc is received, the second avatar bombs/probes. if the system is trying to tell us somthing, the second avatar should also get a perc. i'd probably swap roles at that point and continue for another dozen perc gains, nearly every time should result in a follow up perc gain.

 

[Legion]

i always find perc gain theories interesting and comical at the same time. people take them so seriously so there must be somthing, but then some of the claims seem too wooly or unsubstantiated to be credible.

theres a few major problems. first, why does a skill gained in hunting effect mining or vice versa? secondly, why does a skill gained in scanning show anything in either? thirdly, why is the qualification that perc leads to something "bigger" or "better". than what? if i get a 70 pec rather than 50 pec loot is that what the perc gain indicated? forthly, how does it differ much from random anyway, as a hunter i have ~3500 lvls which means a hell of alot more actual perc skill green lines have gone past, i cant say ive had that many "better" loots. fifth, why is perception the special skill that holds this message, why not any other, in particular serendipity?

having said that i like this theory, because its simple and falsifiable. simply go to a coast and always face the sea when mining. if you get a perception, the theory is false as i cant get a claim at sea. dont try to suggest that the claims are there, why would the system put it there or tell me about it if i cant possibly get it?

some possible answers
1, perc is a generic skill, thus it's tied into both hunting and mining.
2, not sure what you mean.
3, well it can mean more than one thing, which makes it hard to exactly decipher, but to my findings it means either ~5ped loot or bigger, a more rare item or a more rare ore.
4, well as i said it can be a 50 pec rare extractor then it's not the value but the rareness.
5, Perc isnt the specieal skill, there are others that mean similar things, int for example or strength etc. As for seren i cant be sure but i think it changes your loot, but it's almost not noticable and you need a LOT of it to notice anything. I did a little test and chipped in like 300 ped serendipity (marketvalue) which made me get some 2k more skill in serendipity and i saw a small change in extractors looted and more rare wool etc. I cant be sure as i havent logged anything before the test but it seems to have slightly change.
And the falsify thing, i think it might be a 360 indicator but cant be sure on that either.

 

[Legion]

another experiment. go mining with a friend of similar skills, very similar perception. one mines, the other isnt. once a perc is received, the second avatar bombs/probes. if the system is trying to tell us somthing, the second avatar should also get a perc. i'd probably swap roles at that point and continue for another dozen perc gains, nearly every time should result in a follow up perc gain.

he might not get a perc but yes it should be more probable for him to get it. But due to there probably being a set probability to get a skillgain he might not get it also.

 

[Norbert]

another experiment. go mining with a friend of similar skills, very similar perception. one mines, the other isnt. once a perc is received, the second avatar bombs/probes. if the system is trying to tell us somthing, the second avatar should also get a perc. i'd probably swap roles at that point and continue for another dozen perc gains, nearly every time should result in a follow up perc gain.

Unless ofc loot is tied to an avatar and his current server, time and "luck". Marco said in an interview a while ago that the looting avatar makes a difference in some way. If this is the case then would it not be logical to presume that claims etc are also ava specific? Though personally i think it is avatar, server, tool used and time that dictate claims.

Note- The quote from marco was a long time back, and is subject to my memory.

 

[King Noobis]

You are all soo Wrong

The only truth about Perc is:

When I get a perc gain - someone else gets a global/hof - just watch the global chat and see I am 100% correct

 

[aridash]

he might not get a perc but yes it should be more probable for him to get it. But due to there probably being a set probability to get a skillgain he might not get it also.

without even testing it, you have dismissed it and tried to circumvent it. have more faith in your own theory! go try it.

Unless ofc loot is tied to an avatar and his current server, time and "luck". Marco said in an interview a while ago that the looting avatar makes a difference in some way.

did he? didnt Marco or other also recently state their is no "luck" set on creation of avatars? kinda contradicts. eitherway, tying the perc gain to the avatar suggest that avatar would get a subsequent "better" loot no matter what their action.

 

[SuperKanjo]

For the OP, you're second post with the "evidence" is just pure bullshit. Take example 2, the hit is more then 600 mtr away from the perc gain.

Also you didn't include timestamps in every screen, making them more invalid. The hit can be just afater the gain, or after carpet bombing that area for hours.

 

[Miles]

NOTE: Nothing I am saying it this post is meant personally, and there is no malice or ill will in my comments. I am smiling as I write, and I am also happy that you find enjoyment in this. I do to. That is why we are all (hopefully) here.

And don't tell me I can't post in 'your' thread. You make it public, you face the public. If you want a 'private' thread, use the blog feature and moderate comments.

Perception - A skill that contributes to professions, just like every other skill.

OR

Perception - A key to unlocking the black box of the loot system.​

Why? Why is perception different ? Or do all skills tell you something? Why? Why would the skill system be related to the loot system? Why would there be a key that could unlock the black box, when keeping it locked is essential to the survival of the system?

Any system will yield results, but unless you can prove that your system does outperform 'ordinary' mining you have nothing but imaginary patterns in the noise.

My mining 'theory' is no theory at all. If you can't beat my returns you have nothing but a fun theory to amuse yourself with, and that is all well and good. The problem is that you can't ever prove the causation of any specific skill gain to any specific loot, you can only speculate.

When you fall in love with your own superstitions you blind yourself to the logical explanations for your observations. The beauty of it all is that it does not matter.

And that is why I laugh.



Miles

 

[Wolverine Queen]

Unless ofc loot is tied to an avatar and his current server, time and "luck". Marco said in an interview a while ago that the looting avatar makes a difference in some way.

Thats absolute BS. Marco has never stated such. I believe you mix it with the statement that loot is set when the mob is looted.

 

[kosmos]

The problems are though that we as humans tend to look for patterns in things, and if there are (as i suspect) multiple triggers to perc gains any theory would be difficult to prove. By this i mean GD'son edge of radar, maybe a different find type to one you are mining, and i also suspect that sometimes a skillgain is just a skill gain and nothing significant.

Truth. Hard to prove or disprove. This blackbox system can only be 100% proven by the designers or MA. I have many theories but I will never assume they are facts, because for all I know even if I take a sample of an activity (lets say up to 100k peds), it could be a "dynamic" sample. And if someone else does the same it could be one as well. I do believe things will average out over time but again my belief is an opinion which is just another way to express the word theory

In otherwords I guess we will all believe what we want to

Kosmos

 

[Legion]

without even testing it, you have dismissed it and tried to circumvent it. have more faith in your own theory! go try it.

did he? didnt Marco or other also recently state their is no "luck" set on creation of avatars? kinda contradicts. eitherway, tying the perc gain to the avatar suggest that avatar would get a subsequent "better" loot no matter what their action.

What marco said was that all avas are born with the same "luck" ie nobody has any more advantage than any other ava.

NOTE: Nothing I am saying it this post is meant personally, and there is no malice or ill will in my comments. I am smiling as I write, and I am also happy that you find enjoyment in this. I do to. That is why we are all (hopefully) here.

And don't tell me I can't post in 'your' thread. You make it public, you face the public. If you want a 'private' thread, use the blog feature and moderate comments.

Perception - A skill that contributes to professions, just like every other skill.

OR

Perception - A key to unlocking the black box of the loot system.​

Why? Why is perception different ? Or do all skills tell you something? Why? Why would the skill system be related to the loot system? Why would there be a key that could unlock the black box, when keeping it locked is essential to the survival of the system?

Any system will yield results, but unless you can prove that your system does outperform 'ordinary' mining you have nothing but imaginary patterns in the noise.

My mining 'theory' is no theory at all. If you can't beat my returns you have nothing but a fun theory to amuse yourself with, and that is all well and good. The problem is that you can't ever prove the causation of any specific skill gain to any specific loot, you can only speculate.

When you fall in love with your own superstitions you blind yourself to the logical explanations for your observations. The beauty of it all is that it does not matter.

And that is why I laugh.



Miles

All skills tell you something about loot, but perc tells you good loot is nearby. And as to why the system would work that way is due to the lotterylaw, again.

And the system is in NO way dependant on this being hidden for us. Because the system is made in such a way that MA will always make money in any case, ie decay. And also for one ava to profit another has to loose.

Thats absolute BS. Marco has never stated such. I believe you mix it with the statement that loot is set when the mob is looted.

Nope it's not bs, he has stated such. The looting ava can have an impact on loot.

 

[Norbert]

did he? didnt Marco or other also recently state their is no "luck" set on creation of avatars? kinda contradicts. eitherway, tying the perc gain to the avatar suggest that avatar would get a subsequent "better" loot no matter what their action.

It was a while ago in one of the Q+A threads if i remember correctly, i would go search but have little time atm. I seem to remember hunting services where the hirer would loot the creatures not long after this comment, maybe someone else will remember where the comment was.

 

[Profit]

All skills tell you something about loot, but perc tells you good loot is nearby. And as to why the system would work that way is due to the lotterylaw, again.

And the system is in NO way dependant on this being hidden for us. Because the system is made in such a way that MA will always make money in any case, ie decay. And also for one ava to profit another has to loose.

This is what you think, not fact.
With regards to the comment about avatar's impacting the loot, wouldn't this go against your skillgain theory? Considering that your theory implies loot is already "there" as opposed to it be generated on looting.

 

[Jambe]

If this theory is even somewhat true -

drop facing > , move 100 that direction drop facing \/
move 100 meter that direction drop facing <, move 100 drop facing /\

If skill gain during any, continue to bomb in that direction

If no perception or Int gains then move on another 300+ meters and repeat ?

Another thing is ive often found fruit dung and stones after searching the area with a perception gain.

edit- ha found some poo as i typed this after skill

 

[Zavy]

just read post and all i have to say about perception real or not, is the simple fact of finding it versus the cost.

sometimes perception will make you go nutz running around and dropping bombs all over, yes you might find something X size but you wasted many looking.

same for hunting, if there is few red dots then searching is optimal, otherwise its best to be wise and choose, but there are some who like to mow everything down and then it doesn't matter.

but (<its a big butt) the 'dynamic' variable i noticed was that when ppl get perception they way they hunt/mine changes...so does this change the loot or are you just aware? so it may not be perception, rather than our style changes.

but that's just my perception of things

 

[Miles]

....
All skills tell you something about loot, but perc tells you good loot is nearby. And as to why the system would work that way is due to the lotterylaw, again.
...

Even if being skill-based is what makes EU not a lottery, that does not mean skill gains themselves have anything to do with loot. I think that is a badly mistaken conclusion. There are many ways the loot system might be structured that would not be 'random', that might even be primarily individual, that would not require any connection to skill gains.

....
And the system is in NO way dependant on this being hidden for us. Because the system is made in such a way that MA will always make money in any case, ie decay. And also for one ava to profit another has to loose.
...

I agree that if we knew how the loot system worked it would not allow us to benefit - but that is because I don't believe there are any such indicators (like skill gains) that would reveal anything of value. But your statement pretty much destroys such theories all by itself. If knowing wouldn't help, how can any system* beat the black box?

*system - not strategy. It is possible to 'beat' the game with sound strategy, but that is not the same as a system, which implies the ability to outperform the norms without risk. Strategy does not require a flaw in the system to succeed. For example, counting cards at blackjack is a system, not a strategy. Strategy alone only permits you to maximize your return in blackjack - it does not permit you to beat the game. Card-counting systems exploit a flaw in game.

None of that changes the fact that to have an in-game key to the black box would be a fundamental design flaw, and represent a potentially massive security failure. Even if MA would still make their cut, the implications of one or more persons with inside knowledge being able to beat the system (on an individual level) without risk would be potentially game destroying.

The idea that the loot system would work in such a way is mind-blowingly stupid. It would also require additional complexity for no reason. The loot system, at its core, is far more likely to be elegantly simple than stunningly complex. A system that tied together skills gains with loot location (something which may not even exist) would require a layer of complexity that would serve no purpose except to introduce a potentially massive security failure. Occam's Razor cuts right though all skill gain theories.



Miles

 

[Norbert]

Thats absolute BS. Marco has never stated such. I believe you mix it with the statement that loot is set when the mob is looted.

If i remember correctly.... it was a long time ago lol.

Nope it's not bs, he has stated such. The looting ava can have an impact on loot.

Ah i wasn't imagining it then

I seem to remember it was a comment about skills , or team looting. It was a heck of a long time ago though so maybe has changed. Maybe it was skills of looting avatar influenced what was looted and i mis-quoted.

 

[Norbert]

Truth. Hard to prove or disprove. This blackbox system can only be 100% proven by the designers or MA. I have many theories but I will never assume they are facts, because for all I know even if I take a sample of an activity (lets say up to 100k peds), it could be a "dynamic" sample. And if someone else does the same it could be one as well. I do believe things will average out over time but again my belief is an opinion which is just another way to express the word theory

In otherwords I guess we will all believe what we want to

Kosmos

Exactly

 

[Taz]

This is what you think, not fact.
With regards to the comment about avatar's impacting the loot, wouldn't this go against your skillgain theory? Considering that your theory implies loot is already "there" as opposed to it be generated on looting.

Edited:
yes it is what Legion think

Yes there is, because there are no facts in EU. If you think thre are facts tell us at least one (beside the basic system characteristics published in entropia description)

 

[Taz]

Thats absolute BS. Marco has never stated such. I believe you mix it with the statement that loot is set when the mob is looted.

I think it was a quite before you ve born

 

[Taz]

another experiment. go mining with a friend of similar skills, very similar perception. one mines, the other isnt. once a perc is received, the second avatar bombs/probes. if the system is trying to tell us somthing, the second avatar should also get a perc. i'd probably swap roles at that point and continue for another dozen perc gains, nearly every time should result in a follow up perc gain.

I think it wont work this way. Resources are not same for all, like a friuts. Loot is avatar based. Otherwise the second avatar should found nothing when bombing at the same place as first.

 

[Taz]

For the OP, you're second post with the "evidence" is just pure bullshit. Take example 2, the hit is more then 600 mtr away from the perc gain..

Anyone talking about distance?
600 meters is close, sometimes it could be 1500m

Also you didn't include timestamps in every screen, making them more invalid. The hit can be just afater the gain, or after carpet bombing that area for hours.

Yes at the very beginnig I sometimes missed "U" key ... later not

 

[Profit]

Yes there is, because there are no facts in EU. If you think thre are facts tell us at least one (beside the basic system characteristics published in entropia description)

"Yes there is"... what?
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. My post only pointed out that Legion was posting opinion, not fact. Then I asked him a question.
How does "Yes there is..." even fit in that context?

 

[Taz]

Some of you are expetcing you get here a nicely sliced cake on plate.

I just came here to told this:

While I do some mining I sometimes get perception skill gain. This mean to me "yeah man there is somenthing uncommon close, if you want it you have to find it" And I get approx 95% success to find something uncommon, whatever it was. And placed here some nice screnies. Thats all.
¨
It is up to you if you trust or not ... this theory is my theory (about what I do when I get perception) not a fact about EU ... I am a perception follower

 

[Taz]

"Yes there is"... what?
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. My post only pointed out that Legion was posting opinion, not fact. Then I asked him a question.
How does "Yes there is..." even fit in that context?

sorry for my english
Ï mean ... it is what he think

 

[Taz]

And don't tell me I can't post in 'your' thread. You make it public, you face the public. If you want a 'private' thread, use the blog feature and moderate comments.

I do not intend to, I promise.
he was quite rude, so I asked him to not post, politely ... does not help

Why? Why is perception different ? Or do all skills tell you something? Why? Why would the skill system be related to the loot system? Why would there be a key that could unlock the black box, when keeping it locked is essential to the survival of the system?

Have you read "Geology theory" ?
I just picked up one of many skills
BTW I said it is a HINT not a KEY to me.

My mining 'theory' is no theory at all. If you can't beat my returns you have nothing but a fun theory to amuse yourself with, and that is all well and good. The problem is that you can't ever prove the causation of any specific skill gain to any specific loot, you can only speculate.

Whole EU is a speculation. If you could 100% prove such theories, it is matter of time MA go broke then.

When you fall in love with your own superstitions you blind yourself to the logical explanations for your observations. The beauty of it all is that it does not matter.

 

[Legion]

This is what you think, not fact.
With regards to the comment about avatar's impacting the loot, wouldn't this go against your skillgain theory? Considering that your theory implies loot is already "there" as opposed to it be generated on looting.

Well everyone know's it's what i think. Well as i said i'm bad at explaining things. What's already there is not the loot loot sort of but a loot indicator that this mob will have better loot than others around, it could be a multiplier that makes the loot be higher or just some type of indication on the mob that it has better loot that triggers the skills. So the ACTUALL loot is still generated upon looting.

Even if being skill-based is what makes EU not a lottery, that does not mean skill gains themselves have anything to do with loot. I think that is a badly mistaken conclusion. There are many ways the loot system might be structured that would not be 'random', that might even be primarily individual, that would not require any connection to skill gains.

I agree that if we knew how the loot system worked it would not allow us to benefit - but that is because I don't believe there are any such indicators (like skill gains) that would reveal anything of value. But your statement pretty much destroys such theories all by itself. If knowing wouldn't help, how can any system* beat the black box?

*system - not strategy. It is possible to 'beat' the game with sound strategy, but that is not the same as a system, which implies the ability to outperform the norms without risk. Strategy does not require a flaw in the system to succeed. For example, counting cards at blackjack is a system, not a strategy. Strategy alone only permits you to maximize your return in blackjack - it does not permit you to beat the game. Card-counting systems exploit a flaw in game.

None of that changes the fact that to have an in-game key to the black box would be a fundamental design flaw, and represent a potentially massive security failure. Even if MA would still make their cut, the implications of one or more persons with inside knowledge being able to beat the system (on an individual level) without risk would be potentially game destroying.

The idea that the loot system would work in such a way is mind-blowingly stupid. It would also require additional complexity for no reason. The loot system, at its core, is far more likely to be elegantly simple than stunningly complex. A system that tied together skills gains with loot location (something which may not even exist) would require a layer of complexity that would serve no purpose except to introduce a potentially massive security failure. Occam's Razor cuts right though all skill gain theories.



Miles

Well knowing the system would help you win over other players as they would be the ones loosing. And no not really much more complex, spoken about it with my teacher in gamedesign and he see's no problem with it.

 

[Mr Trayles]

sometimes perception will make you go nutz running around and dropping bombs all over, yes you might find something X size but you wasted many looking.

Usually the perception hit occurs in a field of resources and you will get other claims while searching for that larger one. You have to control your desire to go nuts if you don't find it, though. There are going to be times when the claim is out of your finder's reach. If there are a bunch of mobs nearby, you may also want to control yourself as perhaps the perception hit came from one of them.
So, yes, you need to control yourself and not end of spending too much effort on the perc hit otherwise you will end up spending too much looking for it.
It's a subtle thing and you have to learn exactly what to try and when to give up.