Clarification about Entropia banking operations

[Skippie]

If anyone here is guilty of being a "sore loser", it's Akoz.

or qetesh. ;p

but i find the wording of the statement especially fearsome for anyone that formerly got locked for misdoings. for that he might should blame himself, but this message seems incredibly targeted and i liken it to some school house bully threatening to take your lunch money.

it's poop.

 

[wizzszz]

Are you serious?

Do you think Akoz and Teilk created the idea of secured loans? LOL

I'd bet MA had this in the pipeline for quite a while before releasing it.

This is not a novel idea. MA did not "steal" this idea from the CBE.

In fact if you know more of the details you would see that the opposite is happening-

One of the losers of the banking license auctions (Akoz) got left out of the party, so he decided to make a competing service without a license (and without the security the licensed banks will have). He then teamed up with Teilk, who ran a small time loan service for a few months.

If anyone here is guilty of being a "sore loser", it's Akoz.

Well, not every invention is completely new, merely a new combination of old things existing before...

And i didn't talk about banks, in my example, did I?

And i didnt even talk about any existing service...

Unfortunately, you quoted the wrong post !

And as i read the thread all over and over:

Is it your major profession to throw around dung here in pointless false posts?
Or are you just bored?

Read->Understand->Reply... don't mix that up!

 

[True Juan]

To clarify the clarification - MA will target avatars who state they offer loan services (or equal) as business (and not having a virtual banking license).

Will I need a licence to hunt?

 

[Tekkie]

Lets be constructive.

I'll be the first to admit that yesterday when I read the latest MA stance on private lending I was furious. Not because of it will prevent me entering as an independant loaner or because it will surely raise the cost of such a service....solely as the reasons given by MA for such an aggressive standing was in my view (and I think many others here) only made to enhance the bank deeds after they were sold due to the new owners not liking competition.

Im cooler today

So lets fix this problem to please all parties and regain some sanity to the situation.

How do we do it? This is my idea....Please post yours!

1. Avatar opens trade with other avatar as normal.
2. Instead of going directly to the normal trade box a pop-up box is displayed with 2 options... "Do you want to sell/buy an item?" and "Do you want a loan agreement?"
3. If you click the "Buy/Sell item" continue as normal
4. If you click the "Loan agreement" another warning window is displayed listing that all trades are final and you are partaking in an unsupported tranaction, there will be NO support should there be a default of the agreement. The risk is yours. Continue "yes" or "No"
5. Avatar clicks no and the trade session ends.
6. Avatar clicks "yes" ...another box is displayed further warning the avatar of the unsecure transaction and a list of all the official banks and details are displayed. Continue "yes" or "No"
7. Avatar clicks "No" as they want to check the previously mentioned official banks first... *free advertising for them* ... Trade ends.
8. Avatar clicks "yes" normal trade window opens and you are free to take out your private loan.

Woot!!! That would be hard to impliment wouldnt it???

Should you want to take an unsupported loan you have to agree 2 BIG RED WARNING POP-UP BOXES. MA can now simply reply to anybody who has claimed to have been scammed of this and ALL TRADES ARE FINAL.

The official banks get exposure and potential for more customers. All is fair, there are NO grey areas, its plain and simple - the risks are fully displayed to BOTH Avatars involved and have to be agreed by both.

Most of all - free trade is still alive!

As a closing thought, It seems MA are *totally* concerned about new players getting scammed so why not for the first 10, 20 or whatever trades a new Avatar opens A Warning Pop-up opens listing all the known scams operating informing them of what some people try to con you with. Also, now the Noob fella is educated due to the Pop-up he will have a "Report this trade" button should somebody attempt a known scam on him...this could actually wipe out scammers very quickly indeed

My thinking cap has now fallen off so lets try and adapt this and present it to MA. Please post your ideas how we can resolve a very messy, cloudy and as proven above easily over-come situation.

Tekkie.

 

[JohnCapital]

/shrug
Seriously, what would you do?

I believe Marco said it best.

The only banking services supported by MindArk is the ones coming with the virtual banking licenses, which have full support and maximum security for both parties involved in the loan.

This doesn't mean other ventures such as desscribed above are un-authorized, only that if anything would happen during such dealings, MindArk will not offer support - as in, "all trades are final" (as they are considered trades, not "loans").

Fairly simple: If you deal with a non-licensed loaner, you take the risk.

If MA would have stopped right there, and simply pushed the safety and MA backing and support benefits of the licensed banks, this whole thing would have been what it should have been:

Businesses competing for your money and attention.

Competing business have always benefited customers. Always.

I for one never had any intention of using CBE or any of the authorized banks, so this isn't about that for me. This is about MindArk shoving the stick in sideways then asking for a thank you.

I now have no incentive (none at all) to push any of the business ideas I have (regardless of who may benefit) for fear of being stomped on by MindArk.

It's their sandbox and I've been clearly told they will confiscate any toys I bring.

I made my avatar's name with John Galt, the icon of Capitalism in mind. In this case, I too must say that my mind is no longer for sale.

 

[Trig P]

/shrug
Seriously, what would you do?

They should make the lisensed "banks" more like real life banks instead of pawnshops.

As of right now it sounds like the bank holds your item until you pay back the loan & intrest.

Why can't MA make a system that will let you keep your item & use it, but not be able to take it out of your invnetory (OJs before this version???).
If you default on your loan the bank can reposising the item directly from your inventoy to thiers.

So if that is possible, the lisenced banks not only have the full backing from MA but they can give you a loan & you can still use your item.
With this option I think most people would pay a higher intrest rate & it would be providing a new service to EU... (imo worth the cost of the liscences)

There have been player 'banks' (pawnshops, loansharks, ext..) in EU playing by the rules for years. Let them continue do what they are doing.
If they do Scam or steal from others MA has always had the power to ban them.

ok, may be alittle of topic for this thread, but if MA can do as I said above, they wouldn't need to come out with shitty statments like the one that started all of this.

 

[Skippie]

i would not own my mall today without such in game unsecured and "risky" non bank loans.

on the other hand, all attempts for me to contact current bank license owners even though info@theirbankwebsite etc, etc, has gone without even an explaination of how the loan process will work when/if/should mind ark and the bank license owners see their new banks hit the game by the end of the year, originally speculated to arrive on this vu we just got.

nothing, nada, no answer, no contact whatsoever from the proper banks to me a person that financed a large acquisition through trusted and unlicensed lenders in the absence of the in game banks.

many feel the free market itself exists off the exploitation of noobs in atlantis. i am not one of those ppl, but i still say this stink of poop.

 

[thoreau]

Why are these scammers still walking around freely? You know them, yet you dont act.

Marco didn't say they were scammers, he said:

A lot of the people behind the requests are ones with a shady background in the Entropia.

Being shady is not being a scammer. There are a lot of grey areas in every EULA or contract and some people love to live in those grey areas. You can be a 'shady' player and never do anything illegal.

For example, in the U.S. predatory lending is getting a bad rap as a 'shady' enterprise. Yet, it wasn't necessarily illegal. Many people in the U.S. would still own their houses today if the U.S. gov't had taken MindArk's approach to 'shady' enterprises.

It is not the scammers that MA is protecting. It is the average player who might be enticed with less than honest offers.

 

[charis]

If MA cares so much for the community they should let US decide what's best for US.

Activate the voting booths and run a referendum​

I bet just the thought of it will create chills down Marco's spine but I think its the only way for them to get out of this with some decency. Just waiting this issue to wear off doesn't help their credibility.

<off topic> I think democracy (in certain decisions areas) is something this "game" is missing. </off topic>

 

[JackFree]

I have to say I am not surprised at MA's statement.

I can fully understand their stance, and I think if some of you would take a moment to think about what it would mean to allow loan sharks to run rampant in EU, you might see that there can only be one course of action.

Imagine the multitude of "banks" springing up and offering their services, un-secure and not supported by MA. It would create a whole new flood of victims that would go crying to MA, flooding support with complaints, and then cursing MA for doing nothing to prevent the scams.

There is no way to run a lending business based on trust. I does not work, and we have seen cases in EU of "friends" and soc mates scamming each other. There is no way for avatars to offer any type of security. Who do you trust?

MA (Marco) have stated that all trades or even lending between friends and soc mates or other avatars can continue as usual, and as usual, MA will not help you if you get scammed by giving money or items to someone else and expecting to get it back based on "trust". All trades are final, as they should be. That means that you can still lend some one money, just don't expect MA to do anything when you don't get it back.

MA have also stated that the use of the official EU banks is fully supported by MA.

These licenses comprise a secured bank system for processing loans and securities in the form of items. All transactions made via this official bank system, such as loans, defaults, securities, interest etc., are safe and as such guaranteed by MindArk.

That means you can go to them if you have a problem.

They are premptively targeting the unofficial "banks" that will surely appear at every corner and advertising their "services" in EU or EF.

I appreciate that some of you who are trying to create such a service and are honorable and trustworthy people will innocently suffer from MA's decision, but I think it is for the greater good.

The announcement of their policy could have been handled differently, but did anyone really expect MA to allow this?

In my personal opinion this is the only logical thing for MA to do.

Cheers

 

[Defiler]

As i said. First person to get locked for it. Sue. If it happens just PM me and i'll introduce you to one of the best local law firms around for this kind of case. (and they won't ever accept working for MA)

They aren't exactly cheap, but under swedisch law there are ways to fix that aswell.

 

[JohnCapital]

I have to say I am not surprised at MA's statement.

I can fully understand their stance, and I think if some of you would take a moment to think about what it would mean to allow loan sharks to run rampant in EU, you might see that there can only be one course of action.

Imagine the multitude of "banks" springing up and offering their services, un-secure and not supported by MA. It would create a whole new flood of victims that would go crying to MA, flooding support with complaints, and then cursing MA for doing nothing to prevent the scams.

There is no way to run a lending business based on trust. I does not work, and we have seen cases in EU of "friends" and soc mates scamming each other. There is no way for avatars to offer any type of security. Who do you trust?

Did you forget the fact that quite a few pawn/loan businesses were around long before the announcement of the banks? Most failed miserably and didn't last. Others did quite well.

This is only about MA protecting their license money.

 

[Tekkie]

MA (Marco) have stated that all trades or even lending between friends and soc mates or other avatars can continue as usual

And how do you class a "Friend"? Somebody in your society that you have never met, somebody you have been on a few hunts with.....Somebody who in the end seems to have run off with your gear LOL.

Please explain how you decide what a "Friend" is and what a "Person you know of" is....

GREY area my friend

You are my friend because I agree with some of what you say but cant see how this can ever be regulated???

Please explain to us...

 

[Airborn]

i didnt read all the posts to the end so i doubt anyone else will either

I red about four pages and i get two strong signals;

A people are tiredd of beeing mooved around without beeing asked first

B people are tired of fighting the angre and frustration they feel as a result of beeing mooved around without beeing asked first. by looking at it from the perspective of thoose who mooved them around.

 

[Skippie]

i have been scammed several times and have had friends hacked and stripped of skills and all possessions.

support was always filed. result of it, mind ark has never done anything to stop, fix or repair the problem.

so this excuse that this is to protect us, well, it's just poop. it's poop to the power of poop, when you see poop call it poop, don't dress it up and take it to your folks house for sunday dinner.

not to go all etopia on your ass, really, but sorry, marco, not buying this one, this time.

 

[ZippO]

Yes we can all understand that MA wants to protect their investments...

But... if MA had thought this thru before and during the selling of the banks instead of just waiting for all the money to come in and then making the crucial decisions without talking to the community, that they HAD TO KNOW WOULD MAKE PEOPLE IN THIS GAME ANGRY...

Why a few weeks beforehand a support case sent in by Akoz about this specific matter is given one answer and then now a completely different one (Instead of being allowed it is now a scam attempt.)...

How are there completely reliable and trustworthy(time has proven) loaning services being offered atm that are being shrugged off as scam attempts under the EULA now...

What protection is offered by MA on these stocks offered by Ansche i wonder? Am i trusting her only because she has a large amount of money that she just invested into EU?

It seems free entrerprise has taken a large hit from this last VU.

Poor planning is what this is... How does this keep on happening...

We are the players MA. We do not like the wool being pulled over our eyes! Talk to us plz!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Well said ZippO.

So MA wants people to invest in their RCE virtual universe... the more $$$ you put in, the more $$$$$$ you get out.

But all investors should be aware of the fact, that if some business is really giving you big money, "MA and friends" will kick you and pamper their fellow buddies...

Maybe "clearify" that the rules of this virtual univers are being adjusted to "friends of MA/investors" will become a shot-in-your-own-knee...


Ag.

 

[JackFree]

And how do you class a "Friend"? Somebody in your society that you have never met, somebody you have been on a few hunts with.....Somebody who in the end seems to have run off with your gear LOL.

Please explain how you decide what a "Friend" is and what a "Person you know of" is....

GREY area my friend

You are my friend because I agree with some of what you say but cant see how this can ever be regulated???

Please explain to us...

I don't need to explain it, you did it yourself.

Did you forget the fact that quite a few pawn/loan businesses were around long before the announcement of the banks? Most failed miserably and didn't last. Others did quite well.

This is only about MA protecting their license money.

Of couse they are protecting the licensees, but that is what I would expect of any business. The fact that there have been lending services in place before all this happened is the sad part. There is nothing to stop those honest people continuing to lend to their clients, they will just have to stop advertising.

Cheers

 

[Raffaele Meiers]

So once again a present from MA to the ones who invested hughe amount of money...


Loan services exited while the Banking licenses where in auction so the Buyer knew they would have other services to compete agaionst and payed the price knowing that they will have these competitors.

Now MA gives theire licenses already a boost by killing services already existing which offer not the same but similar services.

Or what did Deathifier do to be offered another I think unique mob after the Segs he has on his LA, the Hogglos I do not count as he bought the DNA so he payed for it and I ask myselve why he and not other LA owners or CND?

 

[dbelinfante]

I have to say I am not surprised at MA's statement.

I can fully understand their stance, and I think if some of you would take a moment to think about what it would mean to allow loan sharks to run rampant in EU, you might see that there can only be one course of action.

Imagine the multitude of "banks" springing up and offering their services, un-secure and not supported by MA. It would create a whole new flood of victims that would go crying to MA, flooding support with complaints, and then cursing MA for doing nothing to prevent the scams.

There is no way to run a lending business based on trust. I does not work, and we have seen cases in EU of "friends" and soc mates scamming each other. There is no way for avatars to offer any type of security. Who do you trust?

MA (Marco) have stated that all trades or even lending between friends and soc mates or other avatars can continue as usual, and as usual, MA will not help you if you get scammed by giving money or items to someone else and expecting to get it back based on "trust". All trades are final, as they should be. That means that you can still lend some one money, just don't expect MA to do anything when you don't get it back.

MA have also stated that the use of the official EU banks is fully supported by MA.



That means you can go to them if you have a problem.

They are premptively targeting the unofficial "banks" that will surely appear at every corner and advertising their "services" in EU or EF.

I appreciate that some of you who are trying to create such a service and are honorable and trustworthy people will innocently suffer from MA's decision, but I think it is for the greater good.

The announcement of their policy could have been handled differently, but did anyone really expect MA to allow this?

In my personal opinion this is the only logical thing for MA to do.

Cheers

you are doing nothing but rewording Marco's crap statement, and it remains just that: Crap. Hundreds of 'loan sharks' have not sprung up now, and they won't in the future. But more importantly: So what if they did? MA never gave a shit about our safety before, and that was fine with me, I don't need them to look after me.

Marco is lying about MA's motive to threaten lending entrepeneurs with a lock. And MA is effectively choosing for protectionism over free enterprise. Something I think 95% of all players will DISAGREE with. Strongly.

 

[Art Ludgren]

reverse the procedure

I don't need to explain it, you did it yourself.



Of couse they are protecting the licensees, but that is what I would expect of any business. The fact that there have been lending services in place before all this happened is the sad part. There is nothing to stop those honest people continuing to lend to their clients, they will just have to stop advertising.

Cheers

-or- all people who want to borrow money go to Hades C and start spamming "I want to borrow X peds I have a Y for you to hold" Are they going to disallow people asking for help too?

 

[JackFree]

you are doing nothing but rewording Marco's crap statement, and it remains just that: Crap. Hundreds of 'loan sharks' have not sprung up now, and they won't in the future. But more importantly: So what if they did? MA never gave a shit about our safety before, and that was fine with me, I don't need them to look after me.

Marco is lying about MA's motive to threaten lending entrepeneurs with a lock. And MA is effectively choosing for protectionism over free enterprise. Something I think 95% of all players will DISAGREE with. Strongly.

The whole idea I think is just that, to prevent hundreds of "loan sharks" from popping up. I happen to agree with Marco's statement, but thats just me. I would never presume to speak for anyone but myself.

Why do you assume Marco is lying? We know they are protecting the official banks, but it is not in their interest to squash free enterprise in EU. I really think they are trying to stop a new scam wave before it happens.

Cheers

 

[Tekkie]

There is now a poll thread open <Here>

Please express your thoughts in the poll and reply in the thread but only positive ways in which MA could have avoided such a farce - no riots please. Perhaps some good suggestions will emerge and lessons might be learned for next time?

Tekkie.

 

[dbelinfante]

Why do you assume Marco is lying?

You kidding?

We know they are protecting the official banks,

That answer your question?

but it is not in their interest to squash free enterprise in EU.

In this case it very clearly is. It's a short term outlook for sure, but then, most people have short memories.

I really think they are trying to stop a new scam wave before it happens.

Right, like they always try to stop scams.

 

[demoniac]

The whole idea I think is just that, to prevent hundreds of "loan sharks" from popping up.

I don't really understand that point tbh. It was perfectly legal before and hundreds didn't pop-up. It's not an easy business to set up and run successfully. In light of the timing of the announcement I really don't think that was the 'whole idea' at all. Why would we or MA particularly care about hundreds of loan sharks from that perspective anyway? As many have pointed out already it's not a particular good angle from a scamming point of view.

 

[Tussi]

Or what did Deathifier do to be offered another I think unique mob after the Segs he has on his LA, the Hogglos I do not count as he bought the DNA so he payed for it and I ask myselve why he and not other LA owners or CND?

Well, ND got a bank.

Let's try to see this whole thing from another perspective:

If i would have bought such a bank license, then i would expect from MA that i get very soon after auction is over (<1 month) a ready to use 'bank' ingame - a fully automated system with an interface worth the name where i can configure my rates, how much PED to offer on which item for loans and how much interest to pay on deposits should i decide to offer that... plus a statistics package which is working like one (not the crap which is going on in the ingame auction).

Then i wouldn't care about any ppl running loan services, because mine would be available 24/7, secure and hazzle-free for my customers - qualities which the player pvp-trade based ones never can offer because of the limitations they have (eg. having to sleep sometimes).

All would be fine.

But the moment i would see what's currently happening here my next action would be to instantly call the CEO of MA and ask him if they are out of their minds - because what they are doing (and according to the reactions here quite effective) is not securing my investment. No, they are threatening my customer base by pissing them off or driving them out of the game.

And BTW: should i want to let players participate (eg. offering shares) then i would offer them shares after the system is available for them to experience (and through the system so it is secure for them), and also be clear about what's going in and out. For example disclose the costs to maintain the service and not leave any backdoors for me to swipe profits into my pocket to leave investors with nothing (eg. by hiring myself and paying premium for my services, thus creating costs which cut into the profit which results in a fat ZERO for profit hence no dividend for the shareholders) - so they can make an informed decision and not buying into some vaporware.

But hey, it's only me. Some way back i got trained for a job where the idea was to exploit people by telling them bullshit - and i learned from it that it sucks and that it's a way i don't want to go.

Sadly not all see it that way...

Tussi

 

[JackFree]

Well it seems I do not have alot of company...

There is a big difference in the opportunities for scamming loan sharks now and before the banks were announced. IF you can't see that...

It is sad that MA and Marco seem to have no credibility with some of you. It sounds like MA has nothing better to do than rip us off, lie to us, and screw up anything they get their hands on.

I honestly can see the reason for MA's policy on lending services, you can see it any way you want.

Did anyone notice that this VU had nothing to do with banks? We got new areas to discover, new mobs and new items. MA could have just used this VU to put the bank buildings in place and you would not have even noticed that we did not get any new content.

I think MA is doing their best to make EU a fun place for us as well as a profitable business for them. I also think too many people forget that MA is a business and not a charity.

Cheers

 

[Annica]

All these posts will never make MA change their mind about banks.
MA have stated how they will act about none license banks and thats how its going to be.
I just think all have to accept that.

 

[Tangine]

I'll be the first to admit that yesterday when I read the latest MA stance on private lending I was furious. Not because of it will prevent me entering as an independant loaner or because it will surely raise the cost of such a service....solely as the reasons given by MA for such an aggressive standing was in my view (and I think many others here) only made to enhance the bank deeds after they were sold due to the new owners not liking competition.

Im cooler today

So lets fix this problem to please all parties and regain some sanity to the situation.

How do we do it? This is my idea....Please post yours!

1. Avatar opens trade with other avatar as normal.
2. Instead of going directly to the normal trade box a pop-up box is displayed with 2 options... "Do you want to sell/buy an item?" and "Do you want a loan agreement?"
3. If you click the "Buy/Sell item" continue as normal
4. If you click the "Loan agreement" another warning window is displayed listing that all trades are final and you are partaking in an unsupported tranaction, there will be NO support should there be a default of the agreement. The risk is yours. Continue "yes" or "No"
5. Avatar clicks no and the trade session ends.
6. Avatar clicks "yes" ...another box is displayed further warning the avatar of the unsecure transaction and a list of all the official banks and details are displayed. Continue "yes" or "No"
7. Avatar clicks "No" as they want to check the previously mentioned official banks first... *free advertising for them* ... Trade ends.
8. Avatar clicks "yes" normal trade window opens and you are free to take out your private loan.

Woot!!! That would be hard to impliment wouldnt it???

Should you want to take an unsupported loan you have to agree 2 BIG RED WARNING POP-UP BOXES. MA can now simply reply to anybody who has claimed to have been scammed of this and ALL TRADES ARE FINAL.

The official banks get exposure and potential for more customers. All is fair, there are NO grey areas, its plain and simple - the risks are fully displayed to BOTH Avatars involved and have to be agreed by both.

Most of all - free trade is still alive!

As a closing thought, It seems MA are *totally* concerned about new players getting scammed so why not for the first 10, 20 or whatever trades a new Avatar opens A Warning Pop-up opens listing all the known scams operating informing them of what some people try to con you with. Also, now the Noob fella is educated due to the Pop-up he will have a "Report this trade" button should somebody attempt a known scam on him...this could actually wipe out scammers very quickly indeed

My thinking cap has now fallen off so lets try and adapt this and present it to MA. Please post your ideas how we can resolve a very messy, cloudy and as proven above easily over-come situation.

Tekkie.

Great post !

It says i must spread some reputation... well....
My position on this matter was and still is that i see only three solutions to the problem :
1) inform the newcomers
2) inform the newcomers
3) inform the newcomers.

 

[Annica]

I think it is like in real life , anyone can not start a bank, you need to be approved first. With a real approved bank you have security, with someone on the street lending out money theres no security at all IF the person lending out money not ask for collateral. In real life the person lending out money (not a bank) maybe send some big guys breaking the persons legs if he dont pay back.
What are you going to do in EU if the person dont pay back?
MA wont help you. You can kill the person in PVP and maybe loot some of it but that is not very likely to happen.

In my opinion Eu is allready to much about economy and money. Wheres the fun if all is about money and deals?

I see more and more threads here about just how to earn money, prices , banks, low prices, high prices, selling, buying.
I dont know about you but for me its getting a bit boring that ALL is about money.