Developer-Notes--3

rhogenbe

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Some more data points on Hogglo Young

Maddox IV + Beast. Cost 14.866 pec a shot

mob id;# hits;# misses;total damage done;loot
21;44;6;2094;3.08
22;46;8;2088.1;2.69
23;44;3;2082.2;5.19
24;43;2;2105.5;5.47
25;43;10;2063.5;26.84
26;43;4;2072.4;5.09
27;44;6;2065.5;6.50
28;43;6;2106.2;3.93
29;46;4;2090.5;1.96
30;42;5;2068;5.13

41;48;4;2074.9;1.95
42;43;6;2062.2;6.19
43;44;6;2089.8;5.65
44;47;2;2079;4.05
45;44;4;2069.9;6.34
46;47;3;2070;6.87
47;47;11;2067.7;4.15
48;46;4;2070;6.51
49;48;7;2107.2;64.01
50;44;7;2098.1;3.94

Swine Deluxe + Evil. Cost 53.950 pec a shot

mob id;# hits;# misses;total damage done;loot
31;17;1;2045;4.05
32;18;6;2132.6;2.92
33;17;4;2119.1;8.40
34;16;2;2141.9;4.79
35;18;3;2049.3;39.77
36;17;3;2108.7;4.80
37;18;8;2085.1;3.47
38;17;1;2161.2;4.10
39;19;1;2104.3;5.5
40;18;5;2099.1;1.46

51;18;3;2160.2;2.59
52;16;1;2090.8;4.99
53;16;3;2067.2;2.85
54;16;1;2130.6;7.01
55;18;3;2073.2;8.56
56;17;3;2086.9;9.05
57;18;5;2103.1;5.07
58;18;4;2109;2.93
59;17;5;2145;5.24
60;20;6;2159.3;6.31

Will be doing some more data collection.
I think the lowest loot class is already starting to emerge.

Cheers
Siam
 

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siam,i did the same test with maddox/beast and swinedeluxe/dante on ambus
also in the same setup..if i recall correctly 10 ambus with maddox then 10 with swine and that cycle a couple times

it was very clear that swine gave way higher average loot then maddox,i posted results on forum some time ago
 

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Forgive my ignorance, but what is the MadIV vs. Swine Deluxe test supposed to show?

Both setups differ in so many ways, dmg/sec, ammo/total decay and dmg/sec are all completely different...
 

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Forgive my ignorance, but what is the MadIV vs. Swine Deluxe test supposed to show?

Both setups differ in so many ways, dmg/sec, ammo/total decay and dmg/sec are all completely different...

On a slow regen mob like Hogglo the damage to kill needed is similar and they are pretty extreme in the difference in eco. So if loot is based on decay it should show it clearly. And as far as i can see that is the case.
 

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On a slow regen mob like Hogglo the damage to kill needed is similar and they are pretty extreme in the difference in eco. So if loot is based on decay it should show it clearly. And as far as i can see that is the case.

When you say "decay" you mean "total costs"?

So the test is only a confirmation of what Xen has tested earlier?
 

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Some more data points on Hogglo Young

Maddox IV + Beast. Cost 14.866 pec a shot
Swine Deluxe + Evil. Cost 53.950 pec a shot
..

here an update for n = 60.

Ammo of hits and total cost is significanty higher with Swine (p < .001).
Although Swine has a higher dps, HP Dmg is significantly higher with swine (p = .027). Is overshooting included in dmg?
Loot is not significantly different (p=.520).
P.S. This would at the moment support hp dmg as base for loot.

e74_siam_swine_vs_maddox.jpg


Data Tab ( comma is dot)
e74_siam_swine_vs_maddox_tab.jpg
 
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falkao

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It seems that data on loot vs hp dmg and loot vs ammo PED is in some way contradicting. The DLxE and capped amp test do show a relation between PED spend on ammo and loot, whereas the rest shows a hp dmg done vs loot relation.

My assumption so far was that the capped amp situation was an exception. With the DLxE test we have an example that can't be explained with the assumptions we had so far. Hence, I'm wondering how things might be implemented.

We know that a mob tracks hp dmg done per avatar, or at least this is how it was explained to us with shared loot mobs and team mobs and there is the case were you try to loot but the mob is claimed by someone else.
With the capped amp test I had the impression that the mob records original hp dmg (without cap) but that the mobs health is lowered by a fraction (due to cap) of it.

This however will not work with DLxE. DLxE is however special. It is the weapon with the worst cost to dmg relation. No other weapon shows something similar. Hence we should be carefully when generalizing from DLxE.

Here some scatter plots. Cost perfectly correlates with dmg with the exception of DLxE. It also looks like as a difference in ammo to dmg are then correct by decay so that cost to dmg is proportional. The only exception is DLxE.

Cost to Dmg
pist_dmgcost.jpg

Ammo to Dmg
pist_dmgammo.jpg

Decay to Dmg
pist_dmgdecay.jpg

Ammo to Decay
pist_ammodecay.jpg
 

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This however will not work with DLxE. DLxE is however special. It is the weapon with the worst cost to dmg relation. No other weapon shows something similar. Hence we should be carefully when generalizing from DLxE.

I didnt want to comment before because anecdotes are not evidence, but i have never really noticed a significant change in loot when using L sib weapons that have different decay compared to ammo use, i always counted weapon decay as a form of ammo when seeing how my runs went in the past. The DLxE is pretty old school, maybe someone at MA was having a bad day when they implemented the stats for that weapon? Its also a weapon that is/was not used much so maybe this anomaly was not picked up before other than the fact that the gun is not eco.
 

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I didnt want to comment before because anecdotes are not evidence, but i have never really noticed a significant change in loot when using L sib weapons that have different decay compared to ammo use, i always counted weapon decay as a form of ammo when seeing how my runs went in the past. The DLxE is pretty old school, maybe someone at MA was having a bad day when they implemented the stats for that weapon? Its also a weapon that is/was not used much so maybe this anomaly was not picked up before other than the fact that the gun is not eco.

I had pretty good progress with the DLxE when I crafted... maybe it wasn't ment to be used in hunting? ;)
 

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.... The DLxE is pretty old school, maybe someone at MA was having a bad day when they implemented the stats for that weapon? ...

My impression so far was that DLxE has a design error. Nevertheless, it seems that the excess in ammo is compensated by loot. The question is how the mob should know it?

Another possibility is that hp dmg and cost are recorded independently. One serves to kill the mob and one to establish loot. However, also in this setting DLxE would be an exception, as with other weapons we do see the best correlation with hp dmg and not with ammo cost or to total cost.
 

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My impression so far was that DLxE has a design error.

I think someone simply made a mistake when creating the stats for it, just like it happened for the axe 2x0 and probly the zero decay for the Cempball-Welch 1/P3-Ancient.

I see no reason to exclude it from the research though - it should be subject to exactly the same mechanisms and is our best chance to find out anything, due to its "specialness".

Nevertheless, it seems that the excess in ammo is compensated by loot. The question is how the mob should know it?

I somehow missed the part where you draw the "based on hp dmg done" conclusion from...

The tests all show that this is not the case, and loot is based on PED spent instead - even the amp example shows that, despite the expected loss of decay due to loss of dmg.
 

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My impression so far was that DLxE has a design error. Nevertheless, it seems that the excess in ammo is compensated by loot. The question is how the mob should know it?

Another possibility is that hp dmg and cost are recorded independently. One serves to kill the mob and one to establish loot. However, also in this setting DLxE would be an exception, as with other weapons we do see the best correlation with hp dmg and not with ammo cost or to total cost.

Hmm... So what hapens to loot when you use the Mux-1 / Mux-2 energygloves? Both have lower dpp ratings than DLxE. There are also several long/shortbales with Eco in teh 1.7-2.1 hp/pec range. Do these behave differently to DLxE?
 

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I somehow missed the part where you draw the "based on hp dmg done" conclusion from...

This was here. It is old data but shows the best fit with hp dmg done. Also Siam's data (rhogenbe) goes atm in this direction.
 
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Daniel Steps

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The fundamental loot architecture in Entropia Universe has been unchanged since public beta. Of course, minor tweaks and adjustments have been made over the years to improve balancing and to accomdate new game systems, but the basic underlying concept is the same as ever.

No personal loot pool, yet when i have a 50% return run others don't seem to be affected, they can have a 90%+ run?
Similarity with the tier numbers? You buy ammo and when it's shit % numbers associated with it, you'll have a shit run?
Either way, the fundamental loot architecture (judging from 6 yrs of EU) seems very similar to a gambling site? I put in x.yz ped to kill a mob/ drop a probe / click a bp, and usually it's less return in the loot window (with statistics approaching 90% returned overall? that's unless you have shit ammo or not enough time to ride out the low cycle in your run?), but very rarely it's a bit more than cost to kill, and extremely rarely i HoF or 2x loot rare things that can help you recup some losses ... so that's why it's gambling, at it's core that is (since no personal memory aka loot pool)? Of course there's other things ingame that aren't gambling, but that's mostly graphics, social interaction, sweating, offering a healing service, owning LA's, etc, but at it's core (hunt/mine/craft) it's pure gambling, or not Bjorn? (Prefer an answer from Bjorn since players can only guess).
 

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No personal loot pool, yet when i have a 50% return run others don't seem to be affected, they can have a 90%+ run?
Similarity with the tier numbers? You buy ammo and when it's shit % numbers associated with it, you'll have a shit run?
Either way, the fundamental loot architecture (judging from 6 yrs of EU) seems very similar to a gambling site? I put in x.yz ped to kill a mob/ drop a probe / click a bp, and usually it's less return in the loot window (with statistics approaching 90% returned overall? that's unless you have shit ammo or not enough time to ride out the low cycle in your run?), but very rarely it's a bit more than cost to kill, and extremely rarely i HoF or 2x loot rare things that can help you recup some losses ... so that's why it's gambling, at it's core that is (since no personal memory aka loot pool)? Of course there's other things ingame that aren't gambling, but that's mostly graphics, social interaction, sweating, offering a healing service, owning LA's, etc, but at it's core (hunt/mine/craft) it's pure gambling, or not Bjorn? (Prefer an answer from Bjorn since players can only guess).

Loot pool fallacy
 

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What your post describes is clearly gambling (it achieves a stable/fixed return rate only with the help of the law of large numbers, exactly the same way as roulette) - and this irony is only topped by the arrogance with which you display your false explanation as "the answer (to life, the universe and everything)".
 
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What your post describes is clearly gambling (it achieves a stable/fixed return rate only with the help of the law of large numbers, exactly the same way as roulette)

English language definition of gambling, yes, imo. Swedish legal definition of gambling, not so sure.

I think Doer's point was whilst your loot will oscillate around some long-term average (gambling), your efficiency will have an impact on what that average is (not lottery), and loot pools aren't needed for any of that to be the case.
 

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English language definition of gambling, yes, imo. Swedish legal definition of gambling, not so sure.

I think Doer's point was whilst your loot will oscillate around some long-term average (gambling), your efficiency will have an impact on what that average is (not lottery), and loot pools aren't needed for any of that to be the case.

Mostly i was responding to this fallacy that you can't have avatar-dependent loot without a personal loot pool (part 3), because that keeps getting thrown out like it's a new point of discussion (even to necro an old thread), and at this point that's got to be because people aren't actually reading the threads.

I don't really care whether it's considered gambling or not by some particular person; i'm absolutely sure there's no way that the loot system couldn't be construed to be gambling in some facet by the English language definition, so it's silly to get hung up on that point. The only way this game could work that couldn't be considered gambling would be if every mob gave an exact return in tt (say 90% minimum kill cost). And even that would be something like a raffle (also gambling, but generally legal in the US), where that 10% essentially buys you a ticket for a drawing for markup items.
 

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This however will not work with DLxE. DLxE is however special. It is the weapon with the worst cost to dmg relation.

You do mean ranged ?

Try a mux glove and you'll see something similiar


My impression so far was that DLxE has a design error. Nevertheless, it seems that the excess in ammo is compensated by loot. The question is how the mob should know it?

Another possibility is that hp dmg and cost are recorded independently. One serves to kill the mob and one to establish loot. However, also in this setting DLxE would be an exception, as with other weapons we do see the best correlation with hp dmg and not with ammo cost or to total cost.

There is another weapon with almost the same stats of the Swine Deluxe (just uses another ammo, the rest is equal) that was release just late last year.
 

falkao

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There is another weapon with almost the same stats of the Swine Deluxe (just uses another ammo, the rest is equal) that was release just late last year.

It would be great to get some further datasets using different weapons on the same mob and I'm not sure if rhogenbe still collects data on Hoggs. Maybe we should wait what they tell us in Dev Note #4.

I think Doer's point was whilst your loot will oscillate around some long-term average (gambling), your efficiency will have an impact on what that average is (not lottery), and loot pools aren't needed for any of that to be the case.

The problem is that loot has a large variance and you can't control it, neither with skills nor with anything else as it is a fundamental characteristic of the implemented loot algorithm. This is also the reason why many are complaining about bad loot and don't achieve a satisfying return rate within a reasonable number of kills.
 

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I think Doer's point was whilst your loot will oscillate around some long-term average (gambling)
No, no... i believe Doer's point was: it's easy to make a 100% predetermined process look like random fluctuations
sum_of_sines.jpg


(to avoid another misunderstanding, it was just an example)
 

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The problem is that loot has a large variance and you can't control it, neither with skills nor with anything else as it is a fundamental characteristic of the implemented loot algorithm. This is also the reason why many are complaining about bad loot and don't achieve a satisfying return rate within a reasonable number of kills.

True, but many of those complaining about bad loot are also making bad choices (e.g. using six tiers of damage enhancers on low MU mobs), and are hunting some of the highest HP mobs around. You can't control your variance when looking at fixed number of kills, but you can control your variance when looking at fixed amount of spend.

Artrat's challenge thread showed it's pretty tough to return less than 70% on tt from 10k PED cycled, even the guy trying it on Eomons needed five or six attempts. And yet somehow there are still people complaining about <50% returns.

Mostly i was responding to this fallacy that you can't have avatar-dependent loot without a personal loot pool (part 3)

Ah OK, yeah. Worth making that point, it does seem to get overlooked.

No, no... i believe Doer's point was: it's easy to make a 100% predetermined process look like random fluctuations
sum_of_sines.jpg


(to avoid another misunderstanding, it was just an example)

Well, Doer has already responded to my post ;)

And anyway, not to harp on about the gambling topic, but do you consider 100% predetermined to be synonymous with not-gambling? Unless that predetermined result is known by the bettor, I don't see that as being the case. If I toss ten coins and write down the result, and then you came along and bet on the 10 results (not knowing their outcome), your results would be pre-determined but you'd still be gambling.
 

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True, but many of those complaining about bad loot are also making bad choices (e.g. using six tiers of damage enhancers on low MU mobs), and are hunting some of the highest HP mobs around. You can't control your variance when looking at fixed number of kills, but you can control your variance when looking at fixed amount of spend.

Artrat's challenge thread showed it's pretty tough to return less than 70% on tt from 10k PED cycled, even the guy trying it on Eomons needed five or six attempts. And yet somehow there are still people complaining about <50% returns.



Ah OK, yeah. Worth making that point, it does seem to get overlooked.



Well, Doer has already responded to my post ;)

And anyway, not to harp on about the gambling topic, but do you consider 100% predetermined to be synonymous with not-gambling? Unless that predetermined result is known by the bettor, I don't see that as being the case. If I toss ten coins and write down the result, and then you came along and bet on the 10 results (not knowing their outcome), your results would be pre-determined but you'd still be gambling.

There has to be some form of "gambling". If I knew the location of every mineral deposit in the game and at what time it spawned but not the type, even that would be considered gambling as I do not posess all the parameters.

However if over time I managed to decipher that piece of information and it was consistant, then the system cannot be considered gambling. Point is, us players do not possess the "algorithm" that the game is based on.
 

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Why, players can definitely control how big the loot swings are.

In fact we are all presented with a choice of "How high you wanna play?" every day.

It seems now the difference between "stable loot mobs" and "unstable loot mobs" has been made even bigger/clearer than it was pre-VU10... or maybe it only seems to me?

It's also pretty obvious a system like this has to have some randomness (see good explanations why, above).
It can't be 100% predetermined or player-controlled either.
The system is random only to a certain degree and it's the player who decides (knowingly or not) what exactly this degree is.


Wanna play high & advance fast? Take the risk...
Can't afford it or don't like taking risks? Have a lot of patience...
Seems fair to me.
 
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wizzszz

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Mostly i was responding to this fallacy that you can't have avatar-dependent loot without a personal loot pool (part 3), ...

It looks plausible at first glance, but it does not work.

What is your neat little graph, made from superimposed sinus waves, supposed to show?

a) Loot multiplier?

b) Return rate in percent?

c) PEDs???


Let's assume you hunt hogglos, blast 100s of PEDs into them and exactly the second your "loot wave" has an up swing you shoot a snable that had the questionable luck to make your acquaintance...

Now you loot that poor thing with a loot multiplier of 100x (of the kill costs) and instead of a 300 PED global you get like 5 PED - means you have lost 100s of PEDs.

Now imagine you are a really unlucky fellow and this happens to you all the time - how will you get back to the average 90% payout rate?



Same goes more or less for the other two options... all of them are clearly gambling, and i doubt the system was approved with such a big "luck factor" in it.
 

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Now imagine you are a really unlucky fellow and this happens to you all the time - how will you get back to the average 90% payout rate?

the fellow doesn't get back to the average 90% payout, gets frustrated and posts a "ive spent 1k ped on Hoggs and not globals..." whinge. sound familar?

dont know if this works for or against your view, just making observation.
 

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the fellow doesn't get back to the average 90% payout, gets frustrated and posts a "ive spent 1k ped on Hoggs and not globals..." whinge. sound familar?

Sure it does - and the answers from support are always the same "Keep going, your luck will turn sooner or later".

And they say that maybe because they perfectly know that the system will compensate that unlucky dude eventually?

dont know if this works for or against your view, just making observation.

Neither - apparently you missed the point again:

A system like that is clearly gambling, and subsequently you got to admit that either the system CANNOT work like that or you must claim that MA is lying and that sweden is just a banana republic where the authorities give their permission to anyone who bribes them. But if you do that you must as well allow for statements like "MA was lying in their dev notes"...

I think you can spot the problem with Doers claims here without me having to go further into details...
 

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There has to be some form of "gambling". If I knew the location of every mineral deposit in the game and at what time it spawned but not the type, even that would be considered gambling as I do not posess all the parameters.

Even if you would know that Troppers would global every third hour, though it might help you to increase the average return by adjusting to that schedule, it wouldn't help to win big because you don't know exactly which mob that will global, and there might be 50 other people out hunting at the same time and though they doesn't know or care about that schedule they have about same chance as you do.

Except, possibly, as in ancient times when it was said mining in the bottom of oceans gave better return (simply because few others mined there so minerals would always be filled up). And even if you do know time for mineral respawn, you could lose big if you missed the respawn with a few minutes and a Professional Miner just passed by with his big repairable amp.

I start to understand the big losses in mining now; it's easy to understand if mining in a vell visit area where miners run across now and then, and minerals only reaspawn let's say every 3rd hour - if you happen to be there after say an hour after spawn, most of the minerals in the ground would have been picked up, and if looting system doesn't keep track of your losses, your next, next and next runs can be as miserable. You simply need to be better than the average miner (in terms of for instance timing) to have a good chance - and also stay away from "beloved" areas where miners roam all the time. And reason mobs in a LA might give better mining returns can be simply that the more mobs there are, the less will the area be "overmined".
 

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No, no... i believe Doer's point was: it's easy to make a 100% predetermined process look like random fluctuations
sum_of_sines.jpg


(to avoid another misunderstanding, it was just an example)

I like that picture. If we add third axis, then we will get nice 3d graph with spira... (white noise, transaction ended)
 
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oh boy, now i'm going to have to keep playing exactly the way i have been all these years because i read this forum and followed the good advice here, im not happy at all with the latest developer notes! :p

if u evar evar bought skills u are doomed forever lol
 
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