Question: How do I prove there is or is not a personal loot/expenses pool/tracker?

Cail

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Nothing i've seen so far has indicated that there would be a personal loot pool.
This thread is pointless.
 

dr3w

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Nothing i've seen so far has indicated that there would be a personal loot pool.
This thread is pointless.

I never saw dark side of the Moon, it doesn't exist.
 

mrproper

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All right, my pedeegree chums! Time for me now not talk shit™, but show shit picture:

e90e977369a75fec6602db0445a73948.png

WTF is that?
That was my question too. WTF is that. Loot off, loot on, loot off, loot on?

Nothing i've seen so far has indicated that there would be a personal loot pool.
This thread is pointless.
Ok, lets go home. Anything we need to know we can just take for granted from people with authority next time. Good plan.
 

Cail

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Ok, lets go home. Anything we need to know we can just take for granted from people with authority next time. Good plan.
My point actually being that, even if there was a personal loot pool, you couldn't prove it in any way, sadly.
Hence this being a bit pointless.
 

dr3w

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My point actually being that, even if there was a personal loot pool, you couldn't prove it in any way, sadly.
Hence this being a bit pointless.

My points here is two:

1. Call it like you want - this is _not_ random, there is clearly seen pattern.
2. Hey! Just look what you can do just with TEN peds!
 

Cail

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My points here is two:

1. Call it like you want - this is _not_ random, there is clearly seen pattern.
2. Hey! Just look what you can do just with TEN peds!
I'm sure that it's not random in terms of... everything being random, surely there's a random element to it somewhere in there but, you still can't prove that there's such thing as a personal loot pool.

When you say that your returns started going bad, you don't know if it started going bad for everyone, and you just lost more 'cause you spent more, it just could have been a universal downhill in loot patterns/cycles/whateveryouliketocallem.
 

mrproper

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My point actually being that, even if there was a personal loot pool, you couldn't prove it in any way, sadly.
Hence this being a bit pointless.

If there was a personal loot pool, it would have an effect. Any effect could be detected if it existed. You can't say something exists and claim it can't be found. That's against the definition of "exists". Like gods and spirits and homeopathic ingredients.
 

Cail

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You can't say something exists and claim it can't be found. That's against the definition of "exists". Like gods and spirits and homeopathic ingredients.
You do know the meaning of the word IF, which i used there?

To be clear:
I do not believe in personal loot pools.
Even IF they did exist, you couldn't prove it.

And no, "i logged a drop/kill there and then again there a week later and got 90% back" doesn't really prove anything.
(yes that was exaggerated but you get the point?)
There's the whole universal side to take into account, quite possibly others are having a downfall at the same time as you, maybe just in a different scale.
 

dr3w

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I'm sure that it's not random in terms of... everything being random, surely there's a random element to it somewhere in there but, you still can't prove that there's such thing as a personal loot pool.

I am personally going thru that pattern on picture above 3rd time.

I think, after my next big - you will tell the same. When I will go thru that pattern 10th time - you will tell the same.
 

Cail

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I am personally going thru that pattern on picture above 3rd time.

I think, after my next big - you will tell the same. When I will go thru that pattern 10th time - you will tell the same.
Simply put, you're spending quite consistently, right? dropping a lot of peds a day, could it be, that you're just witnessing the universe wide loot cycles?
Since everyone seems to have downhills and uphills pretty much at the same times (variance might be due to differences in spendings/density of spending).
Not saying that's true either, just speculating.

Anyways, i'm off of this train now, have fun and don't forget to wear your tinfoil hats.
 

dr3w

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Simply put, you're spending quite consistently, right? dropping a lot of peds a day, could it be, that you're just witnessing the universe wide loot cycles?
Since everyone seems to have downhills and uphills pretty much at the same times (variance might be due to differences in spendings/density of spending).
Not saying that's true either, just speculating.

Anyways, i'm off of this train now, have fun and don't forget to wear your tinfoil hats.

I prefer tinfoil hat than straitjacket, agree.
 

Jimmy B

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I am personally going thru that pattern on picture above 3rd time.

I think, after my next big - you will tell the same. When I will go thru that pattern 10th time - you will tell the same.

Avatar cycles have always been a popular theory from time to time ever since I joined. There's no need for them to imply personal lootpools to exist, or efficiency not to matter though.
 

dr3w

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Avatar cycles have always been a popular theory from time to time ever since I joined. There's no need for them to imply personal lootpools to exist, or efficiency not to matter though.

Funny. I think, we all have TOTALLY different vision of term "personal lootpool". Especially, when MA stated that there is 3 independent professional lootpools, hehe. Which means - now, if big ATH hits in mining - all rest miners can start cry: "bastard just dried OUR POOOOOL, daaamn"? And meanwhile - they stated that "personal" doesn't exist, right? So, if those poor bastards filled whole mining lootpool - and someone hits - they lost their peds to him. Forever.

I hope, that shitstorm after Dev notes #2, including selling out of some players, will trigger MA on really detailed explanation of what they stated in their notes. (smile.jpg)

Now I will go watch "Twilight" and cry in the pillow.
 

Jimmy B

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Funny. I think, we all have TOTALLY different vision of term "personal lootpool". Especially, when MA stated that there is 3 independent professional lootpools, hehe. Which means - now, if big ATH hits in mining - all rest miners can start cry: "bastard just dried OUR POOOOOL, daaamn"? And meanwhile - they stated that "personal" doesn't exist, right? So, if those poor bastards filled whole mining lootpool - and someone hits - they lost their peds to him. Forever.

Better poker players than me always told me to try to imagine you were even at the start of each game. You analyse your previous results, but once you sit down at the table you're starting from scratch. As soon as you get in the chasing-losses mindset, or the protect-winnings mindset, you're not going to be making good decisions.

I don't see any need for ATH to affect anything. If EU is like a mechanical fruit machine that must be filled up before it can payout, then yes, maybe. But EU has no need to be like that. It can all be done statistically and randomly. If 5 ATH randomly hit in one day, why do MA care? They would know the long-term payout will even out right in the end.

On the avatar cycle thing, could be that skills/prolevel would be relevant in determining how 'lucky' your avatar is currently. A more efficient player could still be doing better than a less efficient one even through these (hypothetical) cycles. Kalanen and Joat have made some interesting posts on this topic in the past.
 

Oleg

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It doesn't matter what you do, because you've already decided on the answer before you begin, and therefore will learn nothing.
 

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I thought of a possible solution.

Someone who has grinded the same critter for awhile and has a feel for the loot return, or even better, documented returns, can be used here.

Step one: Go on usual hunts for a month. But shoot half of your ammo in the air during each hunt. Record costs and loots.

Step two: Go on usual hunts for a month. Do nothing unusual. Record costs and loots.

Step three: Compare the loots and see if being wasteful affects returns.

If you have a personal loot pool, being wasteful shouldn't affect returns because all your expenditures are recorded and compensated.

If there is no personal loot pool, your returns should be markedly affected by the wasting of ammo in step one.

Won't work if MA already has a system in place that wouldn't compensate for ped spent on "not shooting at a mob"
 
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-Archangel-

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Maybe I try to prove them right. How do I know what I'm going to prove until I get the proof?

How do you want to help you if you even haven't decided to define the terms of the research.

What is the personal loot pool for you.

You can pm if you don't want to make your thoughts about it public.
 

-Archangel-

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Better poker players than me always told me to try to imagine you were even at the start of each game. You analyse your previous results, but once you sit down at the table you're starting from scratch. As soon as you get in the chasing-losses mindset, or the protect-winnings mindset, you're not going to be making good decisions.

Very good advise,
seen recently a study about how people handle very differently what mathematical are numerically the same output but the difference was just the win/loss "context"

people try to "overprotect" against lost. and it clouds their better judgement
 

Doer

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I think you have to ask: what do you mean by "loot pool"? The thread title also refers to the idea as expenses pool/tracker... are you then going to limit yourself to investigating the idea that a foolish activity that generates no return will be compensated?

The way I see this issue is actually as two, there are two different concepts here that people keep convolving: one is the concept of your avatar having a pattern to looting that produces boom/bust cycles that seem to trend toward a mean; the other is the idea that you will be compensated for completely nonproductive activities like shooting into the air. I think you have to separate these and identify your aims before proceeding.

FWIW, the first does not require any kind of pool or extensive state, but can instead be created by a function. The latter obviously has to keep state for some length of time.

My personal belief (yup, that's about what this discussion has come to...) is that loot's a sum or product of sines type function that also has a component that includes output/time and loot/output for some short past period. I don't pretend to have data to support it, but think it fits both my observations and what we've been told.
 

danimal01

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The way I see this issue is actually as two, there are two different concepts here that people keep convolving: one is the concept of your avatar having a pattern to looting that produces boom/bust cycles that seem to trend toward a mean; the other is the idea that you will be compensated for completely nonproductive activities like shooting into the air. I think you have to separate these and identify your aims before proceeding.


To add to your post:

It is really funny to think that people belive in these "wacky" loot theories... shooting into the air makes you look like a moron. Think of it this way, would you purchase a box of ammo in real life then shoot it all into the air to only save one round for a buck (which runs away after you miss it)? It's foolish to waste ammo in real life and it's foolish to waste ammo in EU since in either scenario it deals with real money :)

~Danimal
 

mastermesh

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It's foolish to waste ammo in real life and it's foolish to waste ammo in EU since in either scenario it deals with real money :)

~Danimal

unless it's for science, lol. Still a foolish waste of money, but more entertaining.

 

mrproper

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It doesn't matter what you do, because you've already decided on the answer before you begin, and therefore will learn nothing.
I did? I had no idea I already decided. Thanks for letting me know bro. Could you please tell me what is the answer I decided upon, because sure as hell I don't know...

What is the personal loot pool for you..

I think you have to ask: what do you mean by "loot pool"? The thread title also refers to the idea as expenses pool/tracker... are you then going to limit yourself to investigating the idea that a foolish activity that generates no return will be compensated?

I thought that was explained here by the developers themselves:

Developer Notes #2

...

Personal Lootpools - Many of the theories which suggest - inaccurately - that efficiency is unimportant will often employ the concept of a “personal lootpool”, claiming that the “system” will eventually provide a sort of compensation to avatars who have been operating in an inefficient manner. Such theories are very much misguided. There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars, and there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars. As a result, long-term results in Entropia Universe are directly related to the choices made by each participant, and those who approach their chosen profession in an efficient manner will find more success than those who do not. Overall this is a very positive thing and an important part of the Entropia virtual universe concept, as it allows those participants who spend the time and effort to approach their activities within Entropia Universe in a smart way to improve their chances of becoming successful, just like in the real world.


Originally Posted Here
 

dr3w

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Better poker players than me always told me to try to imagine you were even at the start of each game. You analyse your previous results, but once you sit down at the table you're starting from scratch. As soon as you get in the chasing-losses mindset, or the protect-winnings mindset, you're not going to be making good decisions.

I'm not a good poker player. But I used to play MTTs, midstakes NL HL, some PLO, and many other games against OTHER players.

Yes, there is only one hand at a time.

No, EU - isn't poker. In EU you playing against machine, that machine is feed by... players who can't understand that big money there will do nothing.

And machine pays you, if you STAYS within reasonably limits. Those, who reporting insane deposits - they just don't even feel those reasonably limits.

Yes, EU _looks_ like grinding lowstakes ABC. But it's NOT.

Succesfull playing EU - is an art to be within reasonably limits. You stay too low - it's not effective and weak, and fees is killing you, you losing time. You stay too high - and system starting "throttling", skipping your "overkills", "dropping frames", in other words - just eating your money. If you able to surpass those "borders" - system will eat you. Especially on high levels.

PS: I didn't mention even MU here. It's already basics, and not following them - dead end.
 
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girtsn

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Last reply on this thread. It seems nonsensical to me. If you assumed that god has a plan for each person and wanted to prove if , how would you? Unless god exists and you
  • can get him/her to talk to you (and be sure identity check first)
  • be sure he/she is not lying
  • understand what he/she is saying
  • hmm and not be a crazy person which invalidates the above
you don't stand a chance.
The only improvement over the situation above is that we know there is a god in EU, called MA.
A bit more practical, 90% tt return has been proven statistically (and some factors contribute to it, like maximum 10% tax on land areas). You can do a simple test with 0.55 dmg/pec gun (overamping) yourself, it's not really that expensive. And no MA's statements do not contradict 90% tt return, since they did not define what "personal loot pool" means and only state that there is no compensation for "inefficient behavior" which they also did not define.
 

Uvas

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This sums up the uselessness of this thread...

Personal Lootpools - Many of the theories which suggest - inaccurately - that efficiency is unimportant will often employ the concept of a “personal lootpool”, claiming that the “system” will eventually provide a sort of compensation to avatars who have been operating in an inefficient manner. Such theories are very much misguided. There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars, and there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars. As a result, long-term results in Entropia Universe are directly related to the choices made by each participant, and those who approach their chosen profession in an efficient manner will find more success than those who do not. Overall this is a very positive thing and an important part of the Entropia virtual universe concept, as it allows those participants who spend the time and effort to approach their activities within Entropia Universe in a smart way to improve their chances of becoming successful, just like in the real world.

Disagree? See my signature :)
 

-Archangel-

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I thought that was explained here by the developers themselves:

It was just words without definitions making them worthless for any purpose of a study based just on them.

And no MA's statements do not contradict 90% tt return, since they did not define what "personal loot pool" means and only state that there is no compensation for "inefficient behavior" which they also did not define.

Exactly
 
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