Is lootable PVP working as Mindark intended?

[Dab]

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...230041-Why-Looting-Other-Players-is-Not-Theft

Expanding on discussion in the above thread and this one:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?226690-Why-Space-is-PVP-(IMHO)

The premise:

Make it difficult to travel through space to protect PP's from having their players easily change planets and to make transporting resources risky.

So, the question I have is simply - is it working?

In my opinion it is not working.

Players:
Any new player who wants to leave where they started is free to do so at any time. Sometimes they have to pay for a ride but not always. Existing players can do the same.

Economy:
Any player wanting to travel safely can pack as many stackables as they want and get on a mothership and travel in 100% safety (so far).

Also AFAIK it is even cheaper (if you take a sceduled flight) than the 40 ped TP fee which was put in place as a temporary measure before Space was released.

So, not working as intended? Or is the contention wrong that this is the reason (or the main reason) for lootable space?

 

[dr3w]

Just look at niks and duru MU change.

 

[Dab]

Just look at niks and duru MU change.

Wouldn't that change still have happened without lootable space?

 

[dr3w]

Wouldn't that change still have happened without lootable space?

There would be change, but not so significant. Maybe just a 2% move.

 

[Neil Stockton]

I know that it sounds like interplanetary trading is easy, safe, and fast these days. However, in practice, it's a little more difficult, costly, and time consuming than most players are willing to deal with in regard to casual trading. So while space is totally accessible to anyone who really wants to go there, it still creates a very real trade barrier between planets. MU differences are frequently as much as 5-10% between planets, and there is often a good 24 hour lag between interplanetary MU adjustments.

So... I think space is succeeding in providing a level of isolation to each planet's economy. It also provides a sense of scale and isolation which I think is very important for an immersive experience and adventure of the game.

 

[dr3w]

I know that it sounds like interplanetary trading is easy, safe, and fast these days. However, in practice, it's a little more difficult, costly, and time consuming than most players are willing to deal with in regard to casual trading. So while space is totally accessible to anyone who really wants to go there, it still creates a very real trade barrier between planets. MU differences are frequently as much as 5-10% between planets, and there is often a good 24 hour lag between interplanetary MU adjustments.

So... I think space is succeeding in providing a level of isolation to each planet's economy. It also provides a sense of scale and isolation which I think is very important for an immersive experience and adventure of the game.

Yeah, and would be interesting to see, if there would be a real economical concurrent to Calypso by local market activity. I think, those MU-swings would be even more.

PS: especially, if there different kinds of hunting events on both planets same time.

 

[SpikeBlack]

Motherships are not 100% safe, atleast two has been taken down in the past by Nebula Virus, it's only 100% if people log off during the trip.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?223713-Nebula-Virus-kills-filled-Mothership-Varyag

A flight weight limit for ships would have been a bigger isolation barrier and helped the smaller traders / players more. Right now it pays to take a huge stack through space in one go than than to take smaller stacks.

 

[w d roberts]

So, the question I have is simply - is it working?

Judging by the comments I have read on this forum I think it's "working". Many times I have read posts by people who say they never or rarely go to space because they do not like PVP.

While it is true that anyone could travel through space, even as it is, I think a lot more people would move about the universe if it were not PVP. So while space is not stopping some people from traveling, it is reducing the total number of people who travel. So it's "working", if you can call that working.

.

 

[Spawn]

I have a RL friend who isn't really playing, he's just using Entropia as a 25% bank account. But since he has his avatar, I gave him an opalo and some armour parts and we went hunting some mobs.
So then I told him about other planet and how you could get free stuff there by doing some missions.

He was interested until I told him it would take us 25-40 minutes to get to another planet. So for him ( a non-player) Space is working as intended.

 

[Nor Alien]

Simple answer.. yes...

I think it is too early to say that space is completelydoing its job as it isn't even close to being finished yet. (From what I haveread in other forums) Once we reach the half-way point in the space updates, Ithink it will be more apparent as to what MA wanted space to be..

For me I hope thereis more mining, space hunts, more interaction, a much bigger space, real-timeflying into the atmosphere of planets, a real revolving solar system, and moreand different types of ships.. I guess I will have to wait and see what spacebrings us!!

 

[dr3w]

Motherships are not 100% safe, atleast two has been taken down in the past by Nebula Virus, it's only 100% if people log off during the trip.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...3-Nebula-Virus-kills-filled-Mothership-Varyag

Nice destruction of the cardboard box. Do you know current SI of top motherships?

A flight weight limit for ships would have been a bigger isolation barrier and helped the smaller traders / players more. Right now it pays to take a huge stack through space in one go than than to take smaller stacks.

So, is it okay if I buy in Europe an six-pack beer, go to USA and resell it for 10%, meanwhile complaining about complexity and expensive travel?

You missing purpose of space.

 

[Mega]

If it isn't they will change it.

I think the space mobs zones may change to being non lootable PVP if they want to make it more popular. Or they could leave them as a mostly ignored mob.

I never hear anything about space mines - are they working as intended? I think Space will alter and evolve over coming months.

Hopefully in a good way.

 

[dr3w]

I never hear anything about space mines - are they working as intended?

Nope, they don't yet. Even if they would - it will change nothing with current "logoffsky"

 

[Mega]

Nope, they don't yet. Even if they would - it will change nothing with current "logoffsky"

If "logoffsky" is removed how many people will use motherships to transport loot they have acquired on other planets to where it will sell (ie Calypso) ?

They will still use them to travel quickly if there is a service when they are playing, but if there isnt one at a convenient timezone, I suspect they'll just TT and fly when they are done.

I cant see logoffsky being removed any time this year.

 

[johan roadkill]

since "space only" wasn't mentioned I might add some info to those of you who might have missed what's going on ground lvl

killing a player would give loot and ammo (ammo was given just as any mob would give loot)

then came vehicles and loot became lets say VERY safe. then they made cars lootable which balanced it all out fairly. By fairly i mean that you could atleast gamble on wasting a shit ton of ammo taking down a pitbull if it got stuck somewhere so you could take your time shooting it and hope it had loot

Radar range was increased which didn't really help anyone really since you could now tp b4 a pker reached you and pkers could see miners and hunters from very far away

then ammo was removed from players and well now I'd call pvp4 virtually safe

very few people had loot b4 but ammo would save you since buying high dmg or tiered weapons and pk armor isn't cheap and losing battles meant buying more shots but now most battles only result in the loss of the dead persons toxic shot (yes they removed all profit and kept the shot)

so combine vehicles, huge radar ranges, big slopes and hills there isn't any need for you to engage in combat with another player! Me and Llama even made a deal not to fight if I had no loot since when either of us died we only lost the toxic shot and ammo since i could send my loot flying and still defend myself. so being an honest man i kept him uppdated on the rough amount of loot i was carrying

so unless you are like me who love to fight you can pretty safely hunt and mine in pvp4 now days (spent a few hours hunting lately and only seen 2 people)

In conclusion I won't say it's defect or working as intended but keeping the shot and removing ammo is the only aspect I'd call unfair for both parties.

 

[Hijacker27]

Lootable PvP on planet is most definitely broken.

 

[dr3w]

If "logoffsky" is removed how many people will use motherships to transport loot they have acquired on other planets to where it will sell (ie Calypso) ?

They will still use them to travel quickly if there is a service when they are playing, but if there isnt one at a convenient timezone, I suspect they'll just TT and fly when they are done.

I cant see logoffsky being removed any time this year.

"Logoffsky" will never be removed, since it's simply can't be removed. I mean - person simply can have bad connection, etc-etc-etc. No need to think hard, it's easy to look at already established most hardcore space PVP - Eve-Online. There still that "logoffsky" problem (people saving their expensive implants that way).

What can be really done - I (and not only me) wrote many times already, and will quote myself:

1. There must be no possibility to loot all stuff at once, but some % instead. It is simple not fair to lose all, what you did earn for months.
2. Looter must carry stuff too - risk must be from both sides. Also, rats will have economical reason to eat each other, thus - they will organize in groups eventually, thus - space mines will have their purpose. Organized rats can get down MS.
2.2 From that point logging off in space can be removed/or changed for stuff belonging to spacecraft's cargo.
3. Mining in space should be introduced, with space-exclusive resources.

Thus I have spoken.

!

 

[minim]

http://www.entropialife.com/Planets.aspx

This page shows how good lootable pvp in space works

Calypso 1 105 unique avatar globals
Arkadia 92
Rocktropia 41


Blame it on the current event, blame it on summertime and holidays or whatever you want. Fact is that these numbers is -ish the same at all times.

Edit;

I'd say that it's not rocket science to figure out what's the problem.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Well even for someone like me who likes to travel around it does have the effect of limiting my travel. Back when we had the TP's I would switch planets probably every other day, when space was smaller several times a day. Now I stay on a planet for a week or so.
Also, gives me good reason to try and sell my mats(especially planet specific mats) on the planet I am on. Thus the mats that are in high demand stay on the planet they are needed on.

 

[Norbert]

I don't think space is as MA intended in it's current form, logoffski makes warp mines, higher warp drives redundant. Also all the components for privateers/motherships are limited yet don't decay, so why make them limited in the first place. Not saying that it's a disaster or anything, just that it is certainly not as intended going by the above.

I know people spend a lot of time in space so for those that do space is a great addition, but i think it hampers new planet growth. I enjoy Arkadia but having to travel to calypso to sell guns, loot etc got tiring to the point i give up for time being.

I understand planets need to attract their own playerbase as part of the contract, but holding players is tough if no loot sell etc. Not sure what the answer is to be honest but personally i don't think it is working with current player numbers.

Not being negative, thats just my view at moment..

 

[minim]

I don't think space is as MA intended in it's current form, logoffski makes warp mines, higher warp drives redundant. Also all the components for privateers/motherships are limited yet don't decay, so why make them limited in the first place. Not saying that it's a disaster or anything, just that it is certainly not as intended going by the above.

I know people spend a lot of time in space so for those that do space is a great addition, but i think it hampers new planet growth. I enjoy Arkadia but having to travel to calypso to sell guns, loot etc got tiring to the point i give up for time being.

I understand planets need to attract their own playerbase as part of the contract, but holding players is tough if no loot sell etc. Not sure what the answer is to be honest but personally i don't think it is working with current player numbers.

Not being negative, thats just my view at moment..

You are spot on.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Also all the components for privateers/motherships are limited yet don't decay, so why make them limited in the first place. Not saying that it's a disaster or anything, just that it is certainly not as intended going by the above.

When space was released MA said that at current these will not decay, but it is planned that they will when space is more developed. I'm not positive but don't warp drives decay now? Maybe even the rest?

I enjoy Arkadia but having to travel to calypso to sell guns, loot etc got tiring to the point i give up for time being.

That's the problem, before space almost everyone went to Caly to sell their loot, so even Ark had a hard time building an economy. Now Ark has a small but viberant economy.

 

[Norbert]

That's the problem, before space almost everyone went to Caly to sell their loot, so even Ark had a hard time building an economy. Now Ark has a small but viberant economy.

Most still travel to caly to sell stuff, but yes ark has a small working economy for now. Things sell slowly if at all though there the market is "fragile", Rocktropia i would say "intensive care", and next island "flatline". I tried trading resources caly-rt to ark and things sell but sales are slow across the board, weapons, resources, tools etc.. and end up crafting and taking finished goods to calypso to sell. So in game sense i would play on arkadia a day or two, then end up on calypso a week selling stuff, and passing time.

I understand MA's reason for things as they are to encourage PP's to complete their obligations with recruitment, but i fear that the isolation will have an adverse rather than positive effect to this end. By this i mean new guys start, deposit and hunt then find there is no market for their goods to keep cycling ped/decaying. The number of times at Celeste Quarry i have seen people trying to sell loot, but few traders there who are willing to risk ped due to low demand. It's just a matter of getting enough players into the game i guess, but currently i worry they are being lost as fast as they come in due to low activity on new planets.

As for the answer i don't know, just hope after a time in hibernation i find planets to be flourishing so i can cut out the space bit which i find a chore.

As for decay, warps, mines etc yes space is very young and in time will be fully developed and balanced. I guess they taking things a step at a time so they can assess and adjust.

Anyway thats last post about it, no need to harp on, things will be what they will be.

 

[Dab]

Simple answer.. yes...

I think it is too early to say that space is completelydoing its job as it isn't even close to being finished yet. (From what I haveread in other forums) Once we reach the half-way point in the space updates, Ithink it will be more apparent as to what MA wanted space to be..

For me I hope thereis more mining, space hunts, more interaction, a much bigger space, real-timeflying into the atmosphere of planets, a real revolving solar system, and moreand different types of ships.. I guess I will have to wait and see what spacebrings us!!

What if there are no Planet Partners left by the time MA gets space finished or mostly working as they envision?

"Logoffsky" will never be removed, since it's simply can't be removed. I mean - person simply can have bad connection, etc-etc-etc. No need to think hard, it's easy to look at already established most hardcore space PVP - Eve-Online. There still that "logoffsky" problem (people saving their expensive implants that way).

What can be really done - I (and not only me) wrote many times already, and will quote myself:

They can't remove logging off, but they could make everyone's lootable stackables automatically go into individual cargo containers which could be "looted" if the ship is destroyed.

Most still travel to caly to sell stuff, but yes ark has a small working economy for now. Things sell slowly if at all though there the market is "fragile", Rocktropia i would say "intensive care", and next island "flatline". I tried trading resources caly-rt to ark and things sell but sales are slow across the board, weapons, resources, tools etc.. and end up crafting and taking finished goods to calypso to sell. So in game sense i would play on arkadia a day or two, then end up on calypso a week selling stuff, and passing time.

I understand MA's reason for things as they are to encourage PP's to complete their obligations with recruitment, but i fear that the isolation will have an adverse rather than positive effect to this end. By this i mean new guys start, deposit and hunt then find there is no market for their goods to keep cycling ped/decaying. The number of times at Celeste Quarry i have seen people trying to sell loot, but few traders there who are willing to risk ped due to low demand. It's just a matter of getting enough players into the game i guess, but currently i worry they are being lost as fast as they come in due to low activity on new planets.

As for the answer i don't know, just hope after a time in hibernation i find planets to be flourishing so i can cut out the space bit which i find a chore.

As for decay, warps, mines etc yes space is very young and in time will be fully developed and balanced. I guess they taking things a step at a time so they can assess and adjust.

Anyway thats last post about it, no need to harp on, things will be what they will be.

To keep most new players you'll need a working economy. An economy won't function with just new players.
Calypso took years to build up. Can the PP's survive that long with their new recruits being drawn inevitably to Calypso?

Catch-22

Daisy, why the neg-rep with no comment? You've been so coherent and rational lately. I would've expected a good reason where I went wrong in the OP from a thoughtful player of your standing.

 

[Fifth]

Space seems to be working (i mean, as long as minim is grounded it's working, right?)... j/k
Yes, the concept apparently works, as intended.

What isn't working at all is the size of the playerbase in general, especially on the new planets. For a few months more we can blame it on iron missions and summer, if it doesn't improve by then, well - Houston, we have a problem! Space or no space.

... currently i worry they are being lost as fast as they come in due to low activity on new planets.

Imagine you are this new player on Ark, you find out there's too few ppl and your loot doesn't sell.
What will you do now? Quit the game or travel to the planet where the stuff sells?

The guy who quits wouldn't stay more than 2 weeks anyway, he's a quitter.
The guy who goes through space, will see for himself this game is big - and won't forget this.

And if our guy has decided to go to Caly, PvP Space won't stop him. It may work for the seasoned little weary forum folks but not for the 2-week noob who has decided to go to the Promised Land.

 

[Norbert]

To keep most new players you'll need a working economy. An economy won't function with just new players.
Calypso took years to build up. Can the PP's survive that long with their new recruits being drawn inevitably to Calypso?

Catch-22

On the positive side there are groups of older players i have seen on all new planets, so there are the seeds there to build upon. The "on calypso the streets are paved with gold" i have seen more than a few times from new guys at the quarry keen to go calypso, only MA know if they go on to stay or not.

 

[Fluidum]

The space you experience today is just in its infancy.
The safe means for travel offered by many give little reason to be afraid of it.

We have slowly seen a growth of new space mobs for hunters.
I believe in time we will see mining opportunities, as well as other entertainment besides PVP.
Space will be the ultimate high-risk, high-return gameplay of EU.
For those who dare to travel beyond the safety lines.

You are welcome to visit Space Academy on Pathfinder XV.
Enjoy space exploration and prepare for the future!

 

[aia]

The guy who goes through space, will see for himself this game is big - and won't forget this.

A sad thing is that most of people who travel through space the recommended way - with motherships - can't see anything that happens. From inside you can't see the planet you're leaving become smaller, you can't see when you approach space station - even the space you see from observation deck is just the "local" space of the ship (you don't see any planets there). The only place a normal passenger can get a good view of the real travel is the co-pilot seat and that's just one single seat.

Space will be the ultimate high-risk, high-return gameplay of EU.

Not everyone who wants to travel between two planets (for the main purpose of travelling, not trading) want to be part of a "high risk, high return" game. I can't say my travels through space have made me rich...

 

[Nor Alien]

A sad thing is that most of people whotravel through space the recommended way - with motherships - can't seeanything that happens. From inside you can't see the planet you're leavingbecome smaller, you can't see when you approach space station - even the spaceyou see from observation deck is just the "local" space of the ship(you don't see any planets there). The only place a normal passenger can get agood view of the real travel is the co-pilot seat and that's just one singleseat.

Yep that’s why I say that it isn't close to being finished yet. It will be some time before we get to see the true vision of space MA has. Until then, I think it may be a bit premature to think this is all we get.

Not everyone who wants to travel betweentwo planets (for the main purpose of travelling, not trading) want to be partof a "high risk, high return" game. I can't say my travels throughspace have made me rich...

Your right and those people will stay on the planets or travel by MS. Not everyone will get rich. I do hope you do, but I think you may need to think a bit more outside the box.

The risk takers will fill space's voids, and those who can see its potential will reap the rewards. Again, this is how space was intended by MA. So it is working as planned.

Now it isn't the best, the way it is set up now, but again its not complete.
-------------------------------------------------------------
As for planets dyeing, MA has stated they will take them over, so they won't disappear. As for the planet partners, this is a risky adventure such as all businesses are. Not everyone can run a planet or a business. Some will make it and others won’t.

As for NI, we don't know all the details and thinking David Post is out of the game, may just be just lack of info. For all we know he is just rounding up some new monies and new people to continue his vision. No disrespect to Meg and the others that was working on it, but NI isn't even out of beta stage yet and it's been what, 2 years?! Or at least that's my opinion. Until then, it is just speculation about whether or not the PP idea was bad or not, or whether space needs to change from its current plan. We just don't have enough information.

Just my two cents.

 

[NevadaJake]

Space seems to be working. All of the new ships and vehicles have lured me back to EU I hope they don't remove "Logoffsky". Also, the current Limited (L) components in the large "deed-based-spaceships" should be changed to Unlimited versions, and still not decay, when space is more fully developed.